Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Fion81 08-02-06, 06:27 PM	Since i have just finished university i find myself with a compartively lot of free time. So ive started playing d&d for a while now, returning to third addition from the haitus ive taken in my senior years. the group i play with is a dm and 3 other pcs besides myself, this is the issue. The dm decided to play Ebberron, because we felt that the material in the other realms was too large and out of scope, and additionally my dm is a freak about keeping with the rules, he simply hates the inconsiticienes that come from the pre 3.5 campaign settings. Two of the pcs (all the pcs but me are girls) simply hate Ebberron, one gets over it though because the group is great, the dm while a stickler for rules is a fantastic dm very creative and very fair, designs great adventures, her beef is with the atmosphere and low power level of the world. The last pc however is thinking of leaving and here is her issue. She believes, that the gods dont exist in Ebberron, she loves playing clerics and simply hates this notion of them not existing. If she leaves the other girl will leave, and at that stage everyone could leave, and while this sounds like a silly dilemna this is the best group ive ever played with and they are all great people very mature and normal and well socialized, hell the girls are even good lookin =). These are the solutions that would typcially suggest themselves but wont work. 1. Play a different campaign setting-The dm wont play pre 3.5 material because he hates the inconsistencies. 2. House rule ebberron to have gods or house rule the other material to fit. OUr dm never, ever, ever houserules anything, he plays Rules As Written always, we do not have a single house rule in our games. He chooses what material to allow into the game or not, but we never edit that material once its in. 3. No one else wants to dm, and the dm wont play in games with houserules (wierd i know i think he has an OCD about it, he doesnt diss it, he just wont play....and seriously he is the best dm ever other than this quirk). 4. Ive tried suggesting that she roleplay her character becoming resentful about the gods and changing to worshipping a philosophy. Since in real life she is an avowed athiest her response usually sounds like 'I believe in Goodness and virtue and i can't cast spells, a philosophy is not a religion its just stupid" I know in real life priests cant spells either, but she would say thats because God doesn't exist...her theory being they have to be the source of the magic and the world should be metaphysically seperated from our own. Shes really really ****** off about this. Now i can only see two solutions and im not 100% if i have posted this in the right forums. 1. Does additional ebberron material suggest something postive about the gods existing, i dont need details ill buy the book, but not if it continues to remain vague. 2. Eberron is not just a different campaign world, its completely seperate from the great wheel and planescape and all the rest. Has WOTC released any 3.5 edition campaign settings besides ebberron with that being the case? Ive been gone for a while so i havnt heard about it. or some other miracle solution that you can think up...she is deffinately in Earnest about this and looks ready to throw in the towel at any other moment. IM quite a good diplomat, ive done lots of sitting down and talking and reasoning and she wont bug. Niether will the dm.... OH, they get along great there is no rivalry between them, they even respect each others right to differ, they just dont want to play with it... HELP! if you can... thanks.
Ricohard_Draconis 08-02-06, 06:44 PM	1. Perhaps point her in the direction of the Silver Flame. A very real and definate source of Divine power. You know its real, you can go and see it in Flamekeep and even touch it. 2. Theres Eberron, Forgotten Realms, Ghostwalk (i believe that got a 3.5 upgrade), greyhawk(vanilla DnD) and I think Oriental Adventures might be 3.5 (which contains the rokugan setting.
Encard 08-02-06, 06:52 PM	From what I've read, there's nothing in the published Eberron material saying the gods don't exist. Perhaps I missed something, I guess... Some people or creatures believe they don't; others, as is obvious from the rather large followings of the Sovereign Host and Dark Six, do. The Eberron gods simply don't come down and do things personally like they do on Faerun. Would asking her to reread the published material help at all?
Fion81 08-02-06, 06:58 PM	She concludes from the ambigquity that they dont exist. Using as evidence the fact that they are indifferent to how there clerics behave. She believes the book passively supports this, because there is that line that says the unothordox thelogy of believers in philosophies are lent credence by the fact that there powers are undistigusable. Since the books dont answer the question, the dm wont, he continques the ambiquity. WE have the forgotten realms book, but the one we have is 3.0, they ve released it updated? I guess i was hoping to get away from the whole planescape dragonlance to Fg and greyhawk place. I like the meta disconnection found in ebberron, but we cant houserule that for other worlds...like i said no houserules....wierd situation.
Ricohard_Draconis 08-02-06, 07:00 PM	Whats her opinion on the silver flame? thats the closest to an active divine power on eberron. and yes Faerun got a 3.5 upgrade.
Encard 08-02-06, 07:10 PM	Ah... So basically, she's giving her character her own beliefs about the divine? How does she know that the Sovereign Host and Dark Six aren't locked in some eternal struggle that prevents them from acting? Or that they weren't all killed by some Great Event, leaving only their power active (but perhaps they could be resurrected...)? Or that they weren't forced to take a trip somewhere for the Greater Good/to preserve the world from their own power/etc? Or weren't somehow cast into Xoriat, and now await rescue? Or a host of other options? This is fantasy... that'd be par for the course in a lot of games and novels in the same genre. Also, point out that - unless my memory is off - some beings believe they've been contacted by some of the gods. Iirc, the dopplegangers leading the Cabinet of Faces believe the Traveler himself contacted them and told them to be ready for some great catastrophy (this is from Races of Eberron). Also note that some believe the Silver Flame to be a manifestation of... Dol Arrah, I think it was? That could work as a bit of evidence.
mhacdebhandia 08-02-06, 07:21 PM	If she can't get over the fact that Wizards of the Coast haven't stated (and will probably never state) that the deities people in Eberron believe in definitely exist, you have three choices: 1) As others have posted, point her at the Church of the Silver Flame. There's a definite manifestation of the Silver Flame in the cathedral at Flamekeep; while this isn't the Silver Flame per se - simply the manifestation of it through which Tira Miron, the Voice of the Flame, speaks - it's more concrete evidence of the existence of the Silver Flame than the other faiths of the world can claim. 2) The deathless ancestors of the Undying Court definitely exist. If she can handle playing an elven cleric devoted to "living" gods with whom she can even directly consult from time to time (Right to Counsel feat, for example), that might work out. On the other hand, they may not be a satisfactory "higher power" in the sense she demands. 3) Give up. People have their preferences and prejudices, however irrational and unfair they may seem to others, and if she won't settle for playing a cleric of the Silver Flame or the Undying Host there's not much you can really do. It's sad that your game might dissolve over this issue, but no gaming is better than bad gaming . . . which doesn't just apply to you, it also applies to this friend of yours. If she's never going to enjoy herself because she can't play what she wants to play, expecting her to is a recipe for unhappiness.
Fion81 08-02-06, 07:53 PM	aye thats some good advice, try to get her prejudice to swing the other way, ill give it a go this sunday.
Majorafire77 08-02-06, 08:37 PM	Is she religious at all? Just like in Eberron, there is no definate proof that the gods exist in our world, but even so, there are billions of religious people.
Fion81 08-02-06, 09:36 PM	No, shes an athiest in real life.
turalisj 08-02-06, 10:07 PM	I couldn't tell if that was sarcasm or not. If she's an athiest in rl, then why would she be playing a cleric? It real doesn't make sense....
Fion81 08-02-06, 10:17 PM	I wasnt being sarcastic, she really is an athiest. She doesn't think the situations are analagous at all, the gods definately exist in forgotten realms, and as she says of real life, 'If God existed id worship her'.
JayDubya 08-02-06, 10:38 PM	I couldn't tell if that was sarcasm or not. If she's an athiest in rl, then why would she be playing a cleric? It real doesn't make sense.... I can answer this one. I'm an athiest. I rather like playing Paladins and Clerics. I recognize the whole faith with proof is not faith thing... I've read some Soren Kierkegaard and what not. It is, however, much easier to be a member of a religion when people are walking around performing miracles. Like someone else said, Eberron is still much stronger in this regard than reality. The Silver Flame exists (Jaela Daran talks to it and gains miraculous power from it), paladins can heal with their touch and smite the wicked, people strong in faith and conviction can bend reality... And of course, one thing that makes faith in the benevolent divine much easier is the obvious presence of supernatural malevolence - one look no further than Karrnath's unholy armies. I don't know, but there's something romantic about mythology that draws people like myself to play characters that touch that divine spark... part of roleplaying is being something you are not, and that often involves being a character in a very different setting with very different motives and motivations and defining forces in their life.
Edymnion 08-02-06, 11:00 PM	No, shes an athiest in real life.So why does she have a hangup over Eberron not having gods that come and smack people around for not worshipping them correctly? If you ask any priest of any of the gods in Eberron, they'll tell you that their god exists as a solid fact. They can even prove their god's existance by using divine magic granted by their god. Just because there is no solid proof of their existance is not proof that they do not exist, thats a logical falacy. If she wants the gods to exist for her character, there is absolutely nothing in the setting that says they don't.
Fion81 08-02-06, 11:07 PM	PPl who worship goodness can cast spells, so she concludes that really the god worshipers are drawing it from another impersonal force. She doesn't like the way the metaphysics is structured in eberron, she feels there is an implicit bias against them. In fact the words she uses are 'pretentious and condescending' way of handling the gods. Because of the way things are worded in the books. She wants them to exist, explicitly. Our dm wont make that ruling bc he doesnt ever go against printed material once accepted in... Its the most stupid bind you ever heard of i know, but there you go.
Fion81 08-02-06, 11:07 PM	double post cause of lag, sorry :(.
Fion81 08-02-06, 11:07 PM	triple post cause of lag sorry.
orikes 08-02-06, 11:14 PM	This is the type of intractable player I'd want to beat over the head with my source books. If there's anything that should be consistent about gaming, it should be creativity and being so stubborn as to ruin a whole game for everyone else because what she usually plays isn't the same is just selfish and stupid. I mean, come on. Kill a game because she can't play a Faerun cleric that can essentially pull out their spiritual cellphone and have a heart to heart with Mystra? Or whoever? If she has to have a spiritual character that needs incontrovertable proof of divine power, tell her to play a Cleric or Paladin of the Silver Flame or a Druid. Ultimately, she's not playing someone who has faith, since faith is indicative of trusting the diety without having to be literally hand held every step of the way. Nothing in the Eberron material says the gods do not exist, simply that they do not involve themselves in the every day affairs of mortals. In my opinion, that's much more realistic than the Forgotten Realms version of Gods where you can't seem to swing a stick without hitting a god walking around the mortal plane and messing with the mundanes.
orikes 08-02-06, 11:16 PM	As a side note, I'd say let her walk if she wants to be stubborn and childish like that. With a little footwork you can find players to replace her and the other person.
ArcTan 08-03-06, 12:17 AM	Okay. Here's a whole bunch of evidence for the gods existing: 1) The Silver Flame: Technically the Silver Flame is an eternal, impersonal force of Good in the universe that existed before the literal Silver Flame in Flamekeep. However, no mortals could call on the Silver Flame for power until Tira Miron was able to bind herself to it. There's a real, literal link between the Silver Flame as an entity and the power of mortals to link to it. 2) The Sovereign Host: Here's the thing. The Host is worshipped universally not just because of the actions of human missionaries in convincing everyone that they're the same gods, but because of *actual similarities* between those gods. It's not just that everyone's god of law and learning got subsumed into Aureon, it's that everyone's god of law and learning was named Aureon, or Ar'ay'onne, or something close to that, and that the rituals for this god are very similar, and the pictorial representations of this god are all very close to each other, even in cultures that were separated by thousands of miles before they discovered each other -- the Zil, the Ghaal'dar, the Sarlonans. It can't just be myth -- there's too much commonality there to simply be coincidence. This is why, even though it's very widely recognized that the Sovereign Host is a syncretic blend of different cultures' deities among scholars, those same scholars will argue, convincingly, that these deities *must* be based on objective entities who exist and who inspired the same stories everywhere they went. 3) Ascension: The founder of the Library of Korranberg was convinced divine ascension was possible. And he knew far more about the topic than anyone else alive at the time. We don't know what happened to him, but we don't know for sure that he simply died a normal death, do we? Surely he must have had *some* reason to believe ascension was possible. More telling: The half-fiend black dragon in Explorer's Handbook has engineered *all* his plans around gathering worshippers to himself as a god so that he might ascend and escape his prison. This is one of the oldest beings in Eberron, from the race that knows more about the world than anyone, and he's predicated *all his plans* on the possibility of ascension. It's really unlikely, therefore, that the possibility of ascension -- and the reality of the gods -- is merely a human myth. Now, tearing down the two main objections to the gods' existence: 1) Cross-aligned clerics. Now, the thing is, it refers to cross-*alignment* but not cross-purposes. An Evil servant of the Silver Flame *must still believe in and worship the Flame* in order to gain divine power. He must still believe he is acting toward the Flame's principles, which means a Lawful Good principle. If he has become Evil at heart, it's because he's become corrupt in his mission, willing to compromise -- but all, in the end, for a Good cause. (Think the Operative from Serenity.) He'll steal, torture and kill for the greater good. He's a bad guy working for a good organization -- it's not like there haven't been plenty of *those* all through history, and it's not like good organizations *haven't* been willing, albeit reluctantly, to use the services of bad people if they need them. Now, if he actually *turns against the Flame* and openly serves Evil, then he still loses his powers. Clerical spellcasting in Eberron is *still dependent on worship and faith in a deity* -- it's just that you don't have to share your deity's alignment to worship her. (Keep in mind that even in Forgotten Realms you can still deviate from your deity's alignment by a step -- you can be Lawful Neutral and worship a Lawful Good god, even though by definition that means you don't really share the god's *moral* outlook.) If it still seems repugnant for you for a Good deity to be granting power to an Evil cleric, remember that *even in core D&D* granting divine power is not a voluntary act on the part of a god, not directly. The god accepts service from a mortal and establishes a connection to that mortal, and the mortal then *automatically* receives divine power from the god over time. The god has to actively intervene to *stop* a cleric from receiving spells, when the god's attention has been called to a cleric's sins or fallenness -- but in the meantime the cleric's spellcasting is unaffected, according to the way "blocking divine spells" works in Deities & Demigods. 2) God-less Clerics. Thing is, these already exist in core D&D, according to the rules. Clerics could already gain divine power simply by devoting themselves to a philosophical concept, and yet this doesn't make the Greyhawk or FR deities any less real. The key thing to remember is that these clerics are *rare*. You hardly see any of them in NPC stat blocks or mentioned in the plot -- in Eberron or elsewhere -- and they mainly exist as a player option. It implies you have to be really, really, really devoted to the *idea* of Good -- not just Good -- in order to get Good-domain spells. The vast majority of Good people in Eberron who aren't clerics of a Good-aligned god can't do this. In other words, the gods are important -- an atheist would say they're convenient mental images to focus the mind on when gaining spells, but that seems slightly lame. A more interesting and more likely theory is that the gods of good (or evil) make exceptions for those who can't bring themselves to fully believe in the gods but nonetheless have devoted themselves incredibly strongly to the same cause as the gods. Just because Dol Arrah is willing to grant power to a paragon of virtue who can't summon up the will to believe in her doesn't make Dol Arrah any less real. (Indeed, some would argue that this makes her more reasonable or more truly good than a god who won't help anyone out unless worshipped.)
ChaoticGood 08-03-06, 12:26 AM	Our dm wont make that ruling bc he doesnt ever go against printed material once accepted in... So let me get this straight... Does your DM run nothing but pre-published adventure modules? If not, guess what? He's house-ruling! Every time he puts an orc in a hallway, he is house-ruling a change into the campaign world. If a DM does not have the creative control to institute changes to the rules in order to make the game more fun for his players, then he shouldn't be in the DM's seat. Other than that, I can't understand this player's issue at all. OK, not ALL of the deities are present on Eberron, but there are at least two examples of "living" deities, the Silver Flame and the Undying Court. If that is what she wants out of religion, then she needs only pick the religion that suits (much like in real life, go figure). As has been said before, though... She's trying to play a faith character with no faith at all. :(
ekomega 08-03-06, 12:43 AM	It sounds like she's not an atheist at all. I've never known a real atheist who said that if there was proof of God, they would worship. The whole point is that there isn't proof, and therefore there isn't God. Everyone would worship (like in Faerun) if God walked around creating miracles. She sounds more like an Agnostic who doesn't know what an agnostic is, and who feels for some reason that she can't actually express how she feels. Maybe she's just frustrated because of some crisis of faith she had, where God wasn't there? Anyway, this whole conversation spells "mental problems" and automatically would get someone booted out of my game. You don't need people like this, especially if you're in your 20s. That's retarded. I'd say let her walk. The internet is full of people who want to play DnD.
Fion81 08-03-06, 12:58 AM	The evidence post is very useful ill bring that to her attention. Just to defend her from peoples impressions, she does feel bad over wanting to leave but says it bugs her to the point of her not having fun at the moment, and she says thats all thats important in the end that people have fun since its a game. She does admit its her own opinion and she can see why everyone else is uppity about it, but its how she feels. Shes not a stubborn or unreasonable person at all, i feel bad for giving that impression about her. And for the comment on my dm, i dont think he splits the hairs that finely, but something like this wont be adjusted by him.
JayDubya 08-03-06, 01:46 AM	Just stick with the Silver Flame / Aerenal elves argument. Or the argument that the sovereign host deities are real, they're ascended dragons, they don't meddle in the affairs of mortals because they follow the prophecy and don't wish to interfere. The prophecy is an important part of the setting - even the host itself would not wish to interfere with what they see as the will and testament of the progenitor dragons. Personally, I think Eberron is a happy medium between reality and the Forgotten Realms. IMHO, the gods are far too active and direct in "normal D&D." My perspective is very similar to that of this girl and I could quite happily play a Paladin / Cleric of Dol Arrah, the Silver Flame, Aerenal, etc. It sounds like she's not an atheist at all. I've never known a real atheist who said that if there was proof of God, they would worship. The whole point is that there isn't proof, and therefore there isn't God. Everyone would worship (like in Faerun) if God walked around creating miracles. She sounds more like an Agnostic who doesn't know what an agnostic is, and who feels for some reason that she can't actually express how she feels. Hrm. I disagree. An agnostic claims they don't know if there is a god or not, and some believe that it is impossible for anyone to know. An atheist believes there is no god. There's a whole mess of semantics and subcategories we could get into but let's not. I'm an athiest, and I'm not confused on this subject matter. If there was 100% absolute proof of a god I'd have to be a fool not to worship said deity. As you said however, there is no such proof. As such one must choose between faith in something irrational (Kierkegaard's "leap of faith") or choose not to believe. Believing there is not god does not preclude one from wishing that there was a god or from finding religious myths interesting. Nor does it preclude one from enjoying RP'ing individuals that have a connection to the divine. * * * Finally, if it bothers her that much, make a Dragon Shaman. Make a Bard. Make a Druid. Make an Artificer. There are many classes that can do healing, like, I don't know, how about the Healer! Chicks dig unicorns, afterall, don't they? :P Hell, let someone else be the party healer for a change, someone who'll happily play an Eberron cleric while she plays something else too.
ChaoticGood 08-03-06, 02:10 AM	WARNING: RANT-FEST COMMENCING IN 3... :rant: 2... :censored: 1... :headexplo Just to defend her from peoples impressions, she does feel bad over wanting to leave but says it bugs her to the point of her not having fun at the moment, and she says thats all thats important in the end that people have fun since its a game. ... And for the comment on my dm, i dont think he splits the hairs that finely, but something like this wont be adjusted by him. Let me repeat the important part of what I said: If a DM does not have the creative control to institute changes to the rules in order to make the game more fun for his players, then he shouldn't be in the DM's seat. (Emphasis added, obviously.) OK, let me give you another example: There is still no official map of Frostfell. Is this continent a flat, featureless plain in your DM's campaign world? Does it exist at all? And if you, the players, decide to go to Frostfell, and you visit a town of frost giants, and then Secrets of Frostfell is published and there are no frost giant towns in Frostfell, what will he do? Rule that the adventure never happened, because it goes against the rules? Let's be clear: I am a DM. I count at least three campaigns that were resounding successes. (I once guest-DMed for a friend's campaign, and the players were so impressed that I had to talk them out of ditching their DM in favor of me.) On the other hand, I have had just as many failed campaigns as well. (I once had a campaign go so badly in the first session that the players showed up with an entirely different RPG the next time we got together.) All of these, as well as the multitude of so-so and average games I have run, were lessons that I have taken to heart in my later games. These being my credentials, I feel I have the right to say this: DMing is about keeping the players interested and happy. If one of the players is unhappy because of a single piece of fluff, and the DM won't even consider making a change because of his own stubborn refusal to deviate from the rules as written, then the DM is not holding up his end of the bargain. It would be a different story if she were asking for a game-breaking change. For example, no DM should give a player lots of extra treasure to make them "happy," because in the end, they will have a less satisfying game experience if they can buy their way out of any problem. But if a rule just doesn't make sense to a player and it is making the game less fun, then you bend that rule until it is something you can both live with. This speaks directly to the inherent responsibility of the Dungeon Master: compromise. For the love of Vol, just let the girl visit the Flame and speak with the Keeper. Send a personal vision via herald from her favorite Sovereign. Let her feel the rumble of Khyber stirring in the depths. Give her a sense that the deities are there, but choosing their own time to act. That's all that is necessary here, really... Proof for her character to point to and say, "That is what I worship." Your DM needs to accept the power at his disposal, as well as the responsibilities of being a DM. Once he is behind that screen, the world is HIS to reshape as necessary, not the rulebooks. And he must be willing to reshape it: not for his own whim, but to fit his players' needs and create a rewarding gaming experience for all involved. I don't mean to go all "Uncle Ben Parker" on you here, but... If he is afraid of this "great power" and the "great responsibility" that it brings, then he should not be DMing. Period. (I apologize if this is overly dramatic, but DMing is, to my mind, the closest a human being can become to sitting in God's shoes without being deemed a war-criminal by the Hague. That being the case, I take the process and the responsibilities thereof very seriously.)
Fion81 08-03-06, 02:24 AM	Hes a very good dm actually, ive been playing d&D for 13 years and he is the best ive come across in terms of his ability to hold players interest. Thats why im trying so hard to keep all this together, i am literally having a blast playing with this guy. As for frostfell You see, he does choose what material to add to the game and what not too. So if we went to frostfell and official material contradicted it, he would not admit that official material and go with what had been done. but i do get your point, and he does annoy some players no doubt, and thats fine he says, he wants to play the game the way thats fun to him and pcs who like it are welcome to come on board.
ArcTan 08-03-06, 02:38 AM	Well, depending on what you mean by the gods being "real" or "active", making the gods "real" in Eberron would severely change the setting and require rewriting a lot of things. Where were the Host's avatars when the war between the goblinoids and the humans took place? Whose side did they take? Where were they in the Age of Demons? Why didn't they stop the Xoriat invasion? Etc. The gods of Eberron must at least be distant in order for the setting to make sense -- rewriting that means rewriting great swathes of campaign history and material. It's not as easy as a simple "house rule" -- it means essentially writing a new setting, just like removing the Dragonmarked Houses from Eberron wouldn't be easy, or making high-level magic items common in Eberron, or introducing Ghostwalk's rules for the afterlife. That said, even Greyhawk's deities were somewhat distant compared to the ridiculously overinvolved deities of FR, who wander around consorting with mortals and killing them and doing all kinds of things all the time. Saying that the gods sit "up there" and, for various reasons, don't directly interfere is *not* saying that the gods don't exist. Make that point very clear. And yet, of course, the gods *do* exist, in multiple ways. The Undying Host are a physical reality. So is the Silver Flame. Spells like _commune_ or _divination_ that communicate with the gods *do* get a response from a sentient being -- it's just that this response is limited to the purview of the spell (short yes/no answers to questions, cryptic visions and riddling prophecies) rather than casual, laid-back, get-to-know-the-Traveller conversations. But *some divine force* definitely does exist, and there's no particular reason in Eberron to think that this divine force *isn't* the personified gods -- in fact, the personified gods are the majority point of view. It may be that the gods are an illusion and all there is is some abstract force out there, but that's, in fact, a minority point of view that raises all kinds of problems. (How can an "abstract force" have an agenda, have opinions, and have intelligence the way the _commune_ spell obviously does?)
Always-Late 08-03-06, 03:37 AM	What is a cleric in Eberron entirely based around? FAITH. Yes, FAITH. No, not "Damn, so The Devourer really showed up to destroy all life on Eberron, but Dol Arrah came down and dropped the sun (yes, the sun) on him in the Diety War or -2873852 YK! Now that I know he exists, I'm gonna worship him!" It doesn't even matter who you have faith in. Flame. Host. Dark Six. Khyber. Eberron. Siberys. Even the Dreaming Dark or the Lords of Dust. Faith that the Flame is really telling you to go out and kill all those shifters, or that mercy is overrated still gives you Clerical powers. Your powers come from your faith in your power. You don't believe believe in higher powers, you can't be a cleric. The attitude, "I haven't got proof that *insert power here* exists, so I can't believe." is just completely incompatible with Eberron clerics. That's how it goes. Actually, there may be a solution, disregarding everything I've said so far. I think in the ECS there are clerics who trust the Ring of Siberys as the source of their magic (and everybody knows the Three Big Original Dragons existed,) and that's where they obtain their clerical powers. Try that, too.
turalisj 08-03-06, 03:44 AM	she realy sounds like someone who should be playing FR instead of Eberron. The two are extremly contradicting; with Eberron, 75% of the world could go unexplored by a group where as in FR, you could easily explore most of the material plane, you have a lot of mid to low level magic in Eberron with psionics being a heavy thing but in FR psionics is optional at best and there's a good number of high level magic (I'm thinking of Harpers when I type this), etc.
Brastan 08-03-06, 04:30 AM	(I have taken a year long vow of lucking only which I will break for this.) Remember Faiths of Eberron (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/eberron/953817200)has not been published yet and will be out next month. Forgotten Realms enjoys large volumes of work related to the existence and beliefs of that world. Eberron has not had that detailed information printed yet. Also Eberron, as a setting, is not about the gods but the players. The PCs and their actions are far more important the what the gods themselves are doing. One could say that a Cleric in Eberron is indeed the embodiment of her goddess in the world. Only through her can the deities will be made manifest in the world. I have a simple, easy solution for worshiping a god that does indeed exist. Worship Eberron, the Dragon Between. This would make the character a Cleric of the Prophecy. The basic creation story of the Eberron campaign setting involves the fight between Siberys and Khyber as well as Eberron's intervention. Eberron is the world, its spelled out on every book and in setting text. Denying that Eberron exist is to deny the world as it is, so says a disciple of Eberron as well as the Dragon scholars of Argonnessen. Is anyone going to argue with a Dragon, really? Mechanically, as there are no listed domains for Eberron, the Cleric player or DM would pick two that seem appropriate following the guidelines in the PHB for worshiping a force or concept. Domains of Good, Prophecy(don't know if there is one), Oracle, and the like would be a good place to start. The duties and concerns of Cleric of Eberron would involve binding demons that have emerged from Khyber, studying the Draconic Prophecy, combating the Cult of the Dragon Below, and helping the children of Eberron(the humanoids, animals, magical beasts, etc.) Another note is that monsters in Eberron have gods that they worship that are not part of Host pantheon. Take the Drow's scorpion god, it manifest a gigantic claw(see Secrets of Xen'drik).
Fion81 08-03-06, 04:48 AM	Thats a handy suggestion braston. That book seems like it could be the answer to our problems also, or there final damnation, either way issue solved.
ArcTan 08-03-06, 05:06 AM	What is a cleric in Eberron entirely based around? FAITH. Yes, FAITH. No, not "Damn, so The Devourer really showed up to destroy all life on Eberron, but Dol Arrah came down and dropped the sun (yes, the sun) on him in the Diety War or -2873852 YK! Now that I know he exists, I'm gonna worship him!" It doesn't even matter who you have faith in. Flame. Host. Dark Six. Khyber. Eberron. Siberys. Even the Dreaming Dark or the Lords of Dust. Faith that the Flame is really telling you to go out and kill all those shifters, or that mercy is overrated still gives you Clerical powers. Your powers come from your faith in your power. You don't believe believe in higher powers, you can't be a cleric. The attitude, "I haven't got proof that *insert power here* exists, so I can't believe." is just completely incompatible with Eberron clerics. That's how it goes. Actually, there may be a solution, disregarding everything I've said so far. I think in the ECS there are clerics who trust the Ring of Siberys as the source of their magic (and everybody knows the Three Big Original Dragons existed,) and that's where they obtain their clerical powers. Try that, too. The question of how literally the Progenitor Wyrms existed is up for debate, actually. Eberron "is" the earth, but since the earth is clearly not shaped like a giant dragon, and not made of the materials one would expect to find in a giant dragon, either there was some mighty transformation magic going on there or it's a myth with a clearly symbolic meaning, like making the world out of Ymir or Tiamat. In any case, if what the girl in this example is objecting to is not that her *character* doesn't believe in the gods but that she personally believes that the setting implies very strongly that the gods do not exist and that characters who believe in the gods are simply deluded or wrong, then that *is* an issue (I myself don't like campaign worlds that rely on everyone being superstitious or stupid and we, the players, knowing better than all of them) and one that I addressed in my post, where, while you may never see and touch the gods, there is tons of evidence that they are real and not just inventions of the human mind. Also, I would say you have to have faith in a cosmic principle or purpose behind the world -- which is easier when what you have faith in is a cosmic force or entity that actually *does* determine the world's purpose. Otherwise it's hard to believe in a purpose that's just there. It has to be some kind of purpose, though. "Faith in your own power" is pretty bogus as a justification for being a cleric -- it boils down to "I should be able to have divine spellcasting just because I want divine spellcasting". "Faith" should not be synonymous with "force of will" or "force of desire" -- you are otherwise opening the door for the Munchkin Jerk who gets cleric levels effortlessly because he has so much faith in his destiny to rule the world (meaning, of course, that as long as he keeps on wielding his power and being a Munchkin Jerk, he can never fall and lose his power). No thanks. Even in Eberron faith has to be *about* something to mean anything.
ArcTan 08-03-06, 05:14 AM	(I have taken a year long vow of lucking only which I will break for this.) Remember Faiths of Eberron (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/eberron/953817200)has not been published yet and will be out next month. Forgotten Realms enjoys large volumes of work related to the existence and beliefs of that world. Eberron has not had that detailed information printed yet. Also Eberron, as a setting, is not about the gods but the players. The PCs and their actions are far more important the what the gods themselves are doing. One could say that a Cleric in Eberron is indeed the embodiment of her goddess in the world. Only through her can the deities will be made manifest in the world. I have a simple, easy solution for worshiping a god that does indeed exist. Worship Eberron, the Dragon Between. This would make the character a Cleric of the Prophecy. The basic creation story of the Eberron campaign setting involves the fight between Siberys and Khyber as well as Eberron's intervention. Eberron is the world, its spelled out on every book and in setting text. Denying that Eberron exist is to deny the world as it is, so says a disciple of Eberron as well as the Dragon scholars of Argonnessen. Is anyone going to argue with a Dragon, really? Mechanically, as there are no listed domains for Eberron, the Cleric player or DM would pick two that seem appropriate following the guidelines in the PHB for worshiping a force or concept. Domains of Good, Prophecy(don't know if there is one), Oracle, and the like would be a good place to start. The duties and concerns of Cleric of Eberron would involve binding demons that have emerged from Khyber, studying the Draconic Prophecy, combating the Cult of the Dragon Below, and helping the children of Eberron(the humanoids, animals, magical beasts, etc.) Another note is that monsters in Eberron have gods that they worship that are not part of Host pantheon. Take the Drow's scorpion god, it manifest a gigantic claw(see Secrets of Xen'drik). I don't wanna throw a wrench into this, but worshippers of Eberron are almost always Druids, because most of the religious dogma is that Eberron herself is nonsentient in her current form, and is the sum total of the blind, Neutral forces of nature. And no, I don't think it's universally believed or even commonly believed that the Progenitors literally existed as big flying dragons and are now sentient in their forms that make up the world. Big religious can of worms, actually, if you accept that. In any case, this doesn't mean anything -- believing in a deity doesn't just mean believing *that the deity exists*, but that the deity is conscious, that it cares, that it has a purpose and direction for the world that you want to take part in. In that vein, Eberron, being just the world at our feet, is a lot *harder* to believe in as a conscious, active entity worthy of veneration than, say, the SILVER FLAME or the UNDYING COURT. I mean, geez, why are you people proposing new, exciting concrete deities? Don't you realize that Eberron already has *tons* of concrete deities that exist? The Flame, the Host, the Lord of Blades, Erandis d'Vol the Dreaming Dark? Yes, the process by which worship of these entities gains you divine spellcasting is somewhat detached, perhaps linked to the idea that Erandis d'Vol is in some way a mortal aspect of the Keeper or the Lord of Blades an aspect of the Traveller, but hey. Core D&D is that same way with actual gods. You do not, in fact, call up Thor personally every morning and he does not painstakingly fill your spell slots one by one. Also, Vulkoor is no more (and no less) real than any member of the Host. He doesn't actually physically manifest in the world any more (or any less) than any member of the Host. He manifests the *same way* as the Host does, in fact -- in the form of the Mockery, with whom he's often conflated -- as a bringer of messages through divination magic, a creator of signs, a figure in ritual, and so on.
ArcTan 08-03-06, 05:16 AM	Also Is anyone going to argue with a Dragon, really? Given that there's a branch of the Arcane Congress that's actively dedicated to thwarting the Prophecy, and the novels say "Draconians" -- those who revere the Host as ascended dragons rather than anthropomorphic deities -- are persecuted by the mainstream Sovereign Host churches, and, well, a lot of general things about how most people don't talk to dragons, don't like them and don't trust them, yeah, I would question this. Most Khorvairian humans don't know much about the Prophecy and aren't sure if they like it, if they do.
MadApplejack 08-03-06, 11:10 AM	In fact the words she uses are 'pretentious and condescending' way of handling the gods. I'm having an Inigo Montoya reaction here: "You keep saying that word...I do not think it means what you think it means." Personally, I think it's great the way they handled gods and religion in this setting. The ambiguity and mystery really harmonize with the noir tone the designers were going for. I'll be really disappointed if they do anything to change it--which I doubt they will. But, all that aside, on to your problem: Let her go. She's being a prima donna, and she knows it. This has almost nothing to do with her opinion of the Eberron setting. She's just playing a little mind game to see how much control she can exert over everyone else. If you give in, you're only reinforcing that your group needs her more than she needs you, and that she can use that to get her way. The DM needs to show a little backbone here.
igotsmeakabob!! 08-03-06, 02:15 PM	If nothing else here works... This might be crazy but has she... considered NOT playing a Cleric & playing an aetheist fighter/rogue/wizard/artificer/barbarian/bard/ranger/druid/sorcerer/monk/swashbuckler/hexblade/ninja/spellthief/duskblade/dragon shaman/knight/wu-jen/warmage (pardon me for all the missed ones but I couldn't remember them off-hand) in-game? EDIT: This list brought to you by igotsmeakabob!!. reminding you HOW MANY DAMN CLASSES THERE ARE TO PICK FROM. Also, she IS an aetheist, even if she says 'if god existed i would worship her'. She knows that god doesn't exist, so she's an aetheist. but if there was irrefutable(sp?) proof that god existed, like flyin' around doing miracles, then she would worship him/her/it. Agnostic is a person who isn't sure isn't it? So how would she be an agnostic? She's sure that god doesn't exist. Please note that I didn't have patience to read all of both pages so I may have missed something.
orikes 08-03-06, 03:26 PM	I generally agree with the person who says she's doing this to get attention. I mean, come on. She likes playing clerics, so won't consider any other class other than cleric, yet doesn't like the way gods are set up in Eberron because they may not exist and she'd have to rely on Faith to roleplay her character. She's being inflexible to the point of ridiculouslness. Now, the GM might be just as bad with his 'No House Rules House Rule', but in this particular issue, I don't blame him for sticking with the core setting. As I think ArcTan said, changing this aspect of the gods would drastically alter the tone of the Eberron setting.
Endless_Helix 08-03-06, 03:40 PM	Okay, so this is the problem as far as I can tell -Player A really likes playing Clerics with a Divine Connection to their god. -DM will not contradict RAW. -Both Player A and DM feel that the case for the gods existing is iffy at best. -Player A doesn't like this and wants to do some other campaign. Possible Solutions: A) Have the party rogue/unsavory character slip a hallucinogenic (can't spell) in Player A's Character's food one night. Talk to DM beforehand, giving her a vision of her god telling her important things about the campaign. Also mention that gods act through people, not the blatantly unsubtle methods of the FR gods. B) Have her play a cleric of: - The Quor Tarai. We know that it exists. - The Dragon Below (specifically the Daelkyr, which there are stats for in the ECS) - The Rakshasa Rajas: Unstatted, but officially exist. Hellcow even mentioned that they'd probably have divine ranks. - The Undying Court, as mentioned by the almost all of the other posters. - The Silver Flame, as mentioned previously. - Radiant Idols, statted, and exist. Just advance the hit die to the maximum and I doubt that anything except for a Daelkyr, a Rajah, or Jaela with all the goodies in the Flamekeep could scratch them. The advantage here is the ability to have the Radiant Idol be whatever alignment you wish. -Have her worship the Traveller. He is the most likely to exist of any of the gods. -Vulkoor. Hey, his claw exists. C) Play a druid or ranger. Go talk to Olian. Or worship Vharaak, who we know existed, and may still exist. D) Have them find a stone tablet signed by the god of Player A's choice. (Hellfire, it could be signed by Hieroneous for all it matters) E) Have the DD manipulate her with dreams/visions of her god/godess. After a while she'll be voluntarily failing those will saves for the dream. F) Have ancient artifact manipulate her with the same technique. There are six possible solutions. My personal favorites are A or E, because that's what I would do as a player or a DM respectively. It also reconciles it with everybody who really cares that much. The DM will definately admit that there are hallucinogenics in Eberron, and the Player A will get direct "contact" with her god. -edit- It doesn't matter why she's doing it, the fact is she's doing it, and it is causing a rift in the group. Alright, accepting that premise, the question here is: how do we reconcile two views of how campaigns are to be run, in regards to the divine? Remember Rule 0, and Rule 1/2. The point of a game is to have fun, and if she wants to play a cleric of god that exists beyond a doubt, let her.
DarkWarriorKarg 08-03-06, 03:43 PM	This seems pretty much like you not really having a problem with the setting as it is having a player being a problem. She is either serious or playing you. If serious, she needs help discerning reality from fantasy. "I don't have a problem playing a fictional cleric whose fictional gods are fictionally real. But I just can't understand playing a fictional cleric whose fictional gods may be fictionally real or fictionally not real" If not and she is playing with you, as another poster suggested, tell her to grow up. Choose another character. Use an archivist or a druid. In Eberron, all clerics are clerics of a philosophy. Maybe the gods are simply achetypes used to channel divine energy and are simply mental foci.
Fion81 08-03-06, 06:19 PM	This always bothered me actually the cleric of a philosophy. I mean all character classes have philosophies. They can even be devout and observe rituals, why can't they all cast divine spells? I mean the logic is that somehow the diety selects you to be given spells, and thats why some followers dont get it and others do...the philosophy clerics are definately a pet peeve of mine. I think this is what bothers her, and quite frankly im a little sympathetic to it, though with her its really a major issue of bother.
ArcTan 08-03-06, 11:30 PM	You can't just have a philosophy. You need to be deeply devoted to a philosophy, the way most people are devoted to a religion. See my post on that -- it's perfectly reasonable to say that someone who's *so* devoted to Good that she spends her whole life trying to further it and understand it, above and beyond what normal Good people can do, get the patronage of the gods even if she doesn't acknowledge them.
DarkWarriorKarg 08-04-06, 09:42 AM	Simple: Don't view the cleric as being granted spells by a divine force. View it as a cleric channelling a divine force through archetypes.
poisondusk 08-04-06, 02:36 PM	Nothing in Eberron staes outright that the gods don't exits. In fact...two of the religeons...Silver Flame and Blood of Vol...have very real...very tangible sources of the divine power. What is stated is that the gods ton't interfere like they do in The Realms and such...they don't walk around Khorvaire, telling peple what to do. There are statements in novels, and in rulebooks, that there are those who beleive the Sovereigns are ascended dragons.
ekomega 08-04-06, 05:33 PM	From dictionary.com, "ag·nos·tic n. a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism." That sounds exactly like this girl. She "doesn't" believe in God, but if he was around making miracles, she'd worship. Maybe you could point her toward agnostic texts? I think this philosophy works well with Eberron, since you can have FAITH, but still believe it's impossible to know the truth. Doesn't really work with the second definition.
ArcTan 08-04-06, 06:03 PM	From dictionary.com, "ag·nos·tic n. a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God. b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism." That sounds exactly like this girl. She "doesn't" believe in God, but if he was around making miracles, she'd worship. Maybe you could point her toward agnostic texts? I think this philosophy works well with Eberron, since you can have FAITH, but still believe it's impossible to know the truth. Doesn't really work with the second definition. I've avoided arguing about this, because this is dumb and has nothing to do with the issue at hand. (Yes, I would be put off by someone who absolutely insisted on a certain way of portraying the gods in a fantasy game, but IT'S A GAME and people are allowed to have the hang-ups they want when it's their fantasy. I see no reason to psychoanalyze her over it.) But are you saying that for you, the definition of "atheist" is someone who *wouldn't* believe in God or a god even if the god went around making miracles occur all over the place? Are you not a real atheist if you sometimes think that if God appeared to you in a vision and made a man come back to life and gave you the ability to fly and showed you Heaven that you might, then, believe? There are some atheists who are hostile to the idea of God or the gods or higher beings and honestly believe that it is impossible that such a thing can ever be proven, and if they saw something like that would immediately question it, attack it and/or decide that even if this "god" existed he wasn't worthy of worship and was just some kind of fake. That does *not*, however, describe the gamut of atheism, and, frankly, most people who happen to be atheists have not thought it through so deeply that they could tell you the absolute list of conditions that would have to be met before they started believing in God, just as most theists don't carry around a list of conditions that would have to be met for them to *stop* believing in God. An atheist can be and often is someone who might *like* the idea of God existing, but simply looks at what evidence there is -- no miracles that they can see, no moral order to the world that they can discern, no reason *to* believe in God -- and decides that God doesn't exist. It's because of that that many religious people end up becoming atheists; they look at the evidence and find it wanting, but that doesn't mean they necessarily lose the desire for or fascination with religious ideas that they had in their religious days. It doesn't have to imply the degree of commitment that you seem to think it does, any more than to really believe in God you have to be absolutely certain that nothing could ever make you stop believing in God. Agnostic is different -- there's not a hard line between atheist and agnostic, but agnostic means "I don't know whether God exists", not "I'm sure God doesn't exist". It doesn't say *anything at all* about whether or not you might like God to exist or what your attitude *would* be if God existed. The idea that atheists not only don't believe in God but "hate" God or are hostile to the idea of God or think worshipping God is an awful pastime for schmucks is, really, one of the most virulent and damaging stereotypes about atheists that causes a lot of unnecessary friction between self-identified atheists and religious people, and I think we should let it go. Just because this girl likes the idea of a fantasy world where the gods are real and really would worship God if God existed doesn't invalidate her belief that God doesn't, in fact, exist. For my part, if the Norse gods existed and were waging their eternal war against the giants, I would *certainly* be on the side of the gods and willing to go down with them at Ragnarok, and give my devotion and my life to the service of Odin All-Father who sacrificed himself in endless suffering to bring mankind the secrets of the Runes and the knowledge of civilization and order in a decaying universe. I feel very strongly about it, and I wouldn't love those myths nearly as much if they didn't inspire that feeling in me. And a setting that has the Norse gods but fails to do them justice would annoy me greatly -- as, in fact, D&D's handling of the Norse Pantheon *does* annoy me greatly -- and make me want to alter it or possibly not play in it. This does not mean that, deep in my heart, I am a false Christian who actually worships the Norse gods. It does not mean that I am "agnostic" about their existence. I am, in fact, very, very certain that the Norse gods do not really exist in any substantive form in reality, only as ideas. That doesn't invalidate any of my *feelings* about them *as figures in fiction, mythology and literature*. So lay off this girl already.
ArcTan 08-04-06, 06:23 PM	Guys, I think you've all been missing the point. The OP's friend has a very specific issue, and one which I think I can empathize with -- she believes that Eberron is being patronizing about the nature of religious belief by presenting a world where it's obvious the gods don't exist and are merely myths or stories, and yet tons of people believe in them anyway just because they're superstitious or ignorant. This is demonstrably *not true* in Eberron. There is definitely *something* out there -- some source of divine power that is external, not the same as arcane magic, aligned with cosmic moral principles -- the only part that requires "faith" is believing in which principle is intrinsically better than another, devoting yourself to it, and identifying it with a known identity, a god. The definition of "faith" here is *not*, as some people seem to think it is, "believing something for no reason because you get power". It means "not being absolutely certain one way or the other but choosing to believe a certain way because it makes the world make sense". You don't know *for sure* that Dol Arrah is a reasonable representation of the LG source of power you draw on, but everything you've experienced makes you feel that this must be so -- the fact that others, too, have the same basic subconscious image of Dol Arrah when they meditate on the principles she represents, that it is through the church of Dol Arrah far more than any other source that people gain access to her portfolio of divine powers, that the church exists and must be patterning itself after something higher. Again, just be a smart DM. Don't be an ass who stretches the rules of what "faith" means and say that you can become an LE Cleric of My Right Shoe because you have faith in my right shoe. "Faith" is *not* an arbitrary attachment to random concepts -- it is *not* just a means of magical meditation that gives you power -- it is linked to real, basic belief about the way the world works. Faith in Dol Arrah means believing in a certain consciousness in the world that is pushing towards a certain way of being -- a mind and spirit in the world that wants honor and justice, that approves of valorous combat, that has an agenda. People who have a faith in a "philosophy" must have the *same attitude* toward that philosophy -- they don't know who or what wants them to accumulate all knowledge, or stamp out injustice, or destroy the impure races, but they know *something* does, and they simply refuse to put a name to it. But the divine force is *there* and must be supplicated and tapped into to have clerical spellcasting. This is no less true in Eberron than elsewhere -- the only difference is that in Eberron the gods don't take a physical form and walk around so you know what they look like, and they don't talk directly to you so you know what they want. But there's *something* real about the divine. And sure, there are alternate explanations -- saying the external isn't really external at all, it comes from inside you, that the consciousnes isn't really conscious -- the gods are just blind "principles" or "forces" that gain consciousness from you -- etc. But these are all minority points of view, and they all introduce big problems. (It's sure as heck supposed to *feel* like you're talking to someone outside yourself when you cast _commune_.) As long as you tone down the Cleric of My Right Shoe or Cleric of Whacking Things, and you make sure that the more esoteric ways of being cleric-like -- Ardents from CompPsi, for example, which I really don't like -- are themselves rare and unusual, then there ought to be no problem. The gods are demonstrably *not* a condescending joke in Eberron, but an attempt at realistically and respectfully modelling the ambiguity religious ideas for a fantasy world, and it's only people who read the setting simplistically who think otherwise.
mhacdebhandia 08-04-06, 10:15 PM	Nothing in Eberron staes outright that the gods don't exits. In fact...two of the religeons...Silver Flame and Blood of Vol...have very real...very tangible sources of the divine power. The Silver Flame I will grant you, but the Blood of Vol? There's no tangible proof of their faith, unless you count "Dolurrh really sucks". Erandis d'Vol isn't a goddess of any stripe and the vast majority of the faithful are not even aware she literally exists - they know of Vol, Queen of the Dead, from their scriptures, but they don't know she's hanging out on an island in the Lhazaar Principalities! The Undying Court, now, that's a "divine patron" with whom you can have face-to-face contact. When you ask a priest of Transition where his gods are, he can say "The source of my power is the wisdom of our undying ancestors in Shae Mordai, of course."
Raster 08-05-06, 01:33 AM	Absolute proof of gods in Eberron: Millions of Eberronians have faith in gods, but only a relative few can cast divine spells. The fact that some of that handful have alignments opposed to their deity, further supports this, since it is evidence that some outside force must be making a concious decision to empower those individuals, rather than simply being a power accessible to all faithful individuals of a subset of alignments. It is also noted that clerics can lose their powers, regardless of their alignment, further supporting this conclusion. How then do some clerics who worship ideals have power equivalent to those that worship deities? Obviously they are receiving power from some deity whose purposes they are unwittingly serving. (Disclaimer: I personally love the ambiguity inherent to the setting, and can argue both sides. At this time, it seemed an argument in favor of gods was in order :D )
Edymnion 08-05-06, 12:28 PM	Let her go. She's being a prima donna, and she knows it. This has almost nothing to do with her opinion of the Eberron setting. She's just playing a little mind game to see how much control she can exert over everyone else. If you give in, you're only reinforcing that your group needs her more than she needs you, and that she can use that to get her way. The DM needs to show a little backbone here.And this is the crux of the matter. She's throwing her weight around and wanting to be the center of attention. If you give in to her this time, you will only reinforce her idea that this is acceptable behavior, and she will just do it again the next time she wants to have her way. I say call her bluff. Tell her that she can play a cleric of the Silver Flame if she insists on having a deific figure that she can see and touch, but would also remind her that she's missing the entire point of the word "faith", which is by definition belief without evidence. Any idiot can see and worship a god that walks flaunting themselves. To quote the Constantine movie, "You don't believe, you know." If she walks, fine, let her walk and do your best to hold the rest of the group together. You're better off without her, IMO. She knows she's being disruptive, she knows there are alternatives that she could play but refuses to do so, and thinks that entire campaign settings should be rewritten just to revolve around her own little world. After she's gone, put up fliers at the local gaming store, and make sure to put "P.S. - No spoiled brats" at the bottom.
ekomega 08-05-06, 12:40 PM	After she's gone, put up fliers at the local gaming store, and make sure to put "P.S. - No spoiled brats" at the bottom. I've found myself almost saying this when looking for new players. I think it's a great tip.
ArcTan 08-05-06, 12:56 PM	And this is the crux of the matter. She's throwing her weight around and wanting to be the center of attention. If you give in to her this time, you will only reinforce her idea that this is acceptable behavior, and she will just do it again the next time she wants to have her way. I say call her bluff. Tell her that she can play a cleric of the Silver Flame if she insists on having a deific figure that she can see and touch, but would also remind her that she's missing the entire point of the word "faith", which is by definition belief without evidence. Any idiot can see and worship a god that walks flaunting themselves. To quote the Constantine movie, "You don't believe, you know." If she walks, fine, let her walk and do your best to hold the rest of the group together. You're better off without her, IMO. She knows she's being disruptive, she knows there are alternatives that she could play but refuses to do so, and thinks that entire campaign settings should be rewritten just to revolve around her own little world. After she's gone, put up fliers at the local gaming store, and make sure to put "P.S. - No spoiled brats" at the bottom. I'll just say that knowing for sure that God exists does not destroy the possibility of faith. Knowing that someone exists doesn't fill in the steps of believing that someone is good, trusting someone to have direction over your life, and turning your choices over to that entity and devoting yourself to them in love and in obedience. There are plenty of people who know the Flame exists -- only an idiot doesn't "believe" in the Flame in that sense -- but few who have enough faith in the Flame to be its servants. Again, I think there's confusion -- I think she's objecting to an understandable but untrue misapprehension about the setting (that there is *no* rational reason to believe the gods exist in Eberron) and I think that's been adequately dealt with in this thread. And, again, yeah, I don't like it when players' huge personal issues can take over a game, but the game *is* for the individual players, and if you can try to deal with the issue you should before you start yelling about "prima donnas". At least that's my philosophy.
Edymnion 08-05-06, 02:24 PM	I'll just say that knowing for sure that God exists does not destroy the possibility of faith. Knowing that someone exists doesn't fill in the steps of believing that someone is good, trusting someone to have direction over your life, and turning your choices over to that entity and devoting yourself to them in love and in obedience. There are plenty of people who know the Flame exists -- only an idiot doesn't "believe" in the Flame in that sense -- but few who have enough faith in the Flame to be its servants.My point was that the Sovereign Host clerics and priests manage the exact same level of belief and devotion, and they don't have something that they can walk up to and see. To me, that equates to having a stronger and truer faith.
Goemoe 08-05-06, 03:05 PM	Eberron is not like most of the other campaign settings. On Eberron most priests are not even able to cast divine magic. Only a very small number of those 'faithful' people are clerics. Most who believe in (whatever) are just like current people on earth, faithful without any prove and without any magic. But some are clerics capable of casting spells provided by some divine powers. As a DM (yes we do have house rules ;) ) I only accept clerics of powers I know they exist in some way, able to provide those divine magic. If a player of mine would want to play a cleric of goodness, I would ask him, to consult the expert charts, because goodnes is nice, but not capable of providing divine magic. If one of my players encounter a priest of Vol, able to cast divine spells, Erandis would be avoided by my player until they are well into epic levels... So there might be cults, sects and even churches of a wide selection of faiths, but there are only so many real clerics. Simple rule, tells all and I don't even say gods exist on Eberron... hint, hint ;)
a_psh 08-05-06, 03:08 PM	My point was that the Sovereign Host clerics and priests manage the exact same level of belief and devotion, and they don't have something that they can walk up to and see. To me, that equates to having a stronger and truer faith.Tradition plays a pretty big role here. It is certainly easier to believe in something when everyone around you does, too, and has for thousands of years. I would argue that it still takes a pretty big leap of faith to assume that what is essentially a big bad demon stuck in a kludged-together spirit trap is really some kind of divinity, also.