Post/Author/DateTime	Post
CelestialBarbarian 05-18-05, 08:43 AM	My players have just discovered the map found toward the end of "The Forgotten Forge" that has mystic symbols supposedly explained in "Shadows of the Last War." I'm rereading "Shadows of the Last War" in preparation for starting it, yet I see no mention of the map pfrom "The Forgotten Forge." Am I just missing it, and if so, where in "Shadows of the Last War" do I find it? Thanks! :)
Kennian 05-18-05, 09:39 AM	the woman gives the party a map in the beginning of the quest, at the bar, into the low levels of sharn
Wyrin 05-18-05, 09:44 AM	I'm guessing he means the map you find with the schema at the end. I think this ism meant to relate to the location of Whitehearth, but i dont recall any mention of it specifically in SotLW
CelestialBarbarian 05-18-05, 09:57 AM	I'm guessing he means the map you find with the schema at the end. I think this ism meant to relate to the location of Whitehearth, but i dont recall any mention of it specifically in SotLW Yes, the map with the schema. I think it shows the same area as the map at the quarry in "Shadows of the Last War," but "Shadows of the Last War" makes no reference to the map from the end of "The Forgotten Forge," nor ever explains the meaning of the mystical symbols on the map from the end of "The Forgotten Forge."
MarkB 05-18-05, 10:08 AM	I believe the map was removed as a connection in Shadows of the Last War in order to ensure that it could be run as a standalone adventure.
CelestialBarbarian 05-18-05, 12:51 PM	I believe the map was removed as a connection in Shadows of the Last War in order to ensure that it could be run as a standalone adventure. Well isn't that nice? They could have at least warned me by removing it in the errata. :mad:
JesseDennehy 05-19-05, 12:24 AM	You may want to compare the description of the map to the Rose Quarry map.
CelestialBarbarian 05-19-05, 02:54 AM	You may want to compare the description of the map to the Rose Quarry map. I'd already noticed that they cover the same geographical area, but the map in Forge doesn't in any way lead the party to the quarry map in Shadows.
MarkB 05-19-05, 03:44 AM	I'd already noticed that they cover the same geographical area, but the map in Forge doesn't in any way lead the party to the quarry map in Shadows. It could do if you wanted it to, though. Leave the symbols on the floor in the map room, but remove all the geographical features. The symbols on the map match some of those on the floor (the oldest installations), so matching map to floor is fairly easy, and the combination of map and floor-puzzle provides the location of Whitehearth, but neither is of use on its own. That would also better explain why Garrow and the Emerald Claw haven't figured out the floor map yet.
Kid SixXx 05-19-05, 09:13 AM	It could do if you wanted it to, though. Leave the symbols on the floor in the map room, but remove all the geographical features. The symbols on the map match some of those on the floor (the oldest installations), so matching map to floor is fairly easy, and the combination of map and floor-puzzle provides the location of Whitehearth, but neither is of use on its own. That would also better explain why Garrow and the Emerald Claw haven't figured out the floor map yet. This is what I did. It worked rather well. Not only did it make the Rose Quarry a more significant place, it also added a bit more drama to the map room battle, as my players assumed that they did not have a lot of time to figure out the map room puzzle before the place would be swaming with glass-covered zombies and EC troops. Not quite the epic map room scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark, but it was a nice touch, and at least made an item from one game session nearly immediately significant in another.
CelestialBarbarian 05-19-05, 10:45 AM	It could do if you wanted it to, though. Leave the symbols on the floor in the map room, but remove all the geographical features. The symbols on the map match some of those on the floor (the oldest installations), so matching map to floor is fairly easy, and the combination of map and floor-puzzle provides the location of Whitehearth, but neither is of use on its own. That would also better explain why Garrow and the Emerald Claw haven't figured out the floor map yet. Rereading the two map descriptions I see now that they do not cover the same area; the map in the quarry covers much of Khorvaire, whereas the map in Forge covers only a section of old Cyre. Also the statues on the floor give directions in units on the floor map, so even if the "mystic symbols" on the Forge map matched the statues, removing the geographical features from the floor map would prevent the party from locating the hidden base. Indeed, deleting the geographical features from the floor map would make it not a map at all.
MarkB 05-19-05, 11:41 AM	Rereading the two map descriptions I see now that they do not cover the same area; the map in the quarry covers much of Khorvaire, whereas the map in Forge covers only a section of old Cyre. Also the statues on the floor give directions in units on the floor map, so even if the "mystic symbols" on the Forge map matched the statues, removing the geographical features from the floor map would prevent the party from locating the hidden base. Indeed, deleting the geographical features from the floor map would make it not a map at all. That's the idea. The characters notice that some of the symbols on the floor correspond with symbols on the map, some designating cities in Cyre, others indicating long-standing Cannith installations. From that match-up, the players realise the floor represents a map of Khorvaire for those who know how to read the symbols, and they can then pace out the location of Whitehearth and relate it to the map by checking its position relative to nearby symbols. That makes the whole puzzle make a lot more sense - I could never find it realistic in the version as written that Garrow had been having such trouble figuring it out, as it's such a simple puzzle. If the puzzle makes sense only when referencing a clue in the players' possession, it makes Garrow's actions more sensible.
CelestialBarbarian 05-19-05, 02:52 PM	That's the idea. The characters notice that some of the symbols on the floor correspond with symbols on the map, some designating cities in Cyre, others indicating long-standing Cannith installations. From that match-up, the players realise the floor represents a map of Khorvaire for those who know how to read the symbols, and they can then pace out the location of Whitehearth and relate it to the map by checking its position relative to nearby symbols. That makes the whole puzzle make a lot more sense - I could never find it realistic in the version as written that Garrow had been having such trouble figuring it out, as it's such a simple puzzle. If the puzzle makes sense only when referencing a clue in the players' possession, it makes Garrow's actions more sensible. Oh, ok, I follow you now. I have below average spacio-mechanical skills so I had trouble visualizing what you meant. So the floor has symbols but no map, and the maps has symbols but no instructions. So the PCs have to read the instructions from the back of the correct statue, then follow the instructions to the right part of the floor, where a symbol will appear that corresponds to a symbol on the map, which shows them the location of the right House Cannith forge.
DarkerDreams 05-19-05, 08:12 PM	not directly relevant to the discussion, but my party had issues with following directions and kept landing in the wrong place. x SW kept becoming x paces west x paces south for example. Ultimately I had to give them a Knowledge (arcana) check to remember the pathagorian theorem... several of them are in higher math classes, so they felt rather silly.
CelestialBarbarian 05-20-05, 12:34 AM	not directly relevant to the discussion, but my party had issues with following directions and kept landing in the wrong place. x SW kept becoming x paces west x paces south for example. Ultimately I had to give them a Knowledge (arcana) check to remember the pathagorian theorem... several of them are in higher math classes, so they felt rather silly. :rofl: Would that have anything to do with the Pythagorean theorem? ;) The campaign I run has characters as high as 16th level, and they frequently take to the air. They make feverish use of the Pythagorean theorem to determine how far and high they fly on a diagnonal (both vertically and horizontally). Just last weekend I joked that they we now know why we had to study math in high school--so we could play D&D! :D
DarkerDreams 05-20-05, 12:10 PM	very closely related, one could almost say they're the same thing. ;-) I try to avoid making life math intensive, and usually if it gets there whoever came up with the idea scraps it as more trouble than it's probably worth- though the days that a mage decides to do the geometry on his lightning bolts to hit EVERYTHING on rebound... yeah. back on topic. I like this "combined map" idea... I wish I had heard it before I ran FF and SotLW.
CelestialBarbarian 05-20-05, 03:51 PM	very closely related, one could almost say they're the same thing. ;-) I try to avoid making life math intensive, and usually if it gets there whoever came up with the idea scraps it as more trouble than it's probably worth- though the days that a mage decides to do the geometry on his lightning bolts to hit EVERYTHING on rebound... yeah. back on topic. I like this "combined map" idea... I wish I had heard it before I ran FF and SotLW. I like it too, and I've created a file to make sure I remember how to use it. :)