Mapping Sharn [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mapping Sharn [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
EbonStorms
01-05-05, 03:06 PM Sharn: City of Towers has some nice maps of the city (pages 37, 43, and 49). Does anyone know to what scale these maps are? I'm mapping some of the districts for my campaign and I'm not sure how big to make the map. It looks like it should be something like 1 inch = 1 mile, but I can not be sure. Anyone know?

Thanks.
Khopesh122
01-05-05, 03:58 PM I wish I could remember where (and can't find a reference in the A.K.B. FAQ) but I think Keith said he wasn't certain but that 1 inch = 1 mile looked about right

EDIT

Found the reference
Here it is (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=4940398&highlight=inch+mile#post4940398)
papytofu
01-05-05, 09:43 PM I'm affraid i cannot help you on this issue but could I be audacious enoguh to ask you if you would send me those maps when they'll be finished? It would be really nice of you and really appreciated. Thanks a lot!
Edymnion
01-05-05, 09:46 PM I'm affraid i cannot help you on this issue but could I be audacious enoguh to ask you if you would send me those maps when they'll be finished? It would be really nice of you and really appreciated. Thanks a lot!They're in the Sharn: City of Towers book.
If ya want the maps, you have to buy the book :)
papytofu
01-05-05, 09:49 PM I have the book I talk about the map that Ebonstrom will do. :D You think i'm this kind of man, I'm insulted and i provoke you in duel to clean my honor. :D
Edymnion
01-05-05, 10:08 PM I have the book I talk about the map that Ebonstrom will do. :D You think i'm this kind of man, I'm insulted and i provoke you in duel to clean my honor. :D*smacks himself with a glove*
Whoops, this is what I get for skimming :P
EbonStorms
01-05-05, 10:43 PM I'm starting a campaign with 1st level players and will play as long as they want to. We will be starting in Old Keep in Lower Dura and I am going to map the area in Fractal Mapper including all lower level buildings (Housing, Shops, etc.). As the campaign grows I will map additional sections as needed.

I know as soon as I create the map it will be wrong, disenthroned by some official book or novel, but I'll use it for my game and I will post the maps on our campaign's web site. When I get them done, I'll post the link here for those interested.
Munz
01-06-05, 01:22 PM Here's an idea...
It says in the Sharn: City of Towers handbook that most towers are 800 feet to 2500 feet in diameter at their base. So, look at the map of middle wards (since the lower wards do not appear to have many biggere towers represented; must be representing the towers touching at the base) and do the comparison. Find the biggest diameter drawn for a tower and with a seperate piece of paper or string, draw or make a length for that circle's diameter. Call that 2,500 feet. Since 5,280 feet is a mile, roughly two towers right next to each other at the base would be 1 mile wide.

So, measure with a ruler how wide the largest tower is drawn to be and figure that times two.

When I looked into it, I figured a larger tower to be just about 3/8 of an inch. So in this aspect, 3/4 of an inch just about equals 1 mile or you could one further and say 3 inches equals 4 miles. That's looking from the Upper, Middle, and Lower Wards' pictures in the book. So that's my estimate anyways.

Let me know if this helps!

M
EbonStorms
01-06-05, 02:44 PM I did something similar (that is how I got the 1 inch = 1 Mile). I read in the web enhancement on Lyrandar Tower where it is 2000 feet at its base. I then used the middle ward map and picked a circular tower in the Central Plateau and did calculations by that. I ended up with 1 inch being equal to slightly larger than 1 mile (the same as you I think) but I rounded to 1 inch = 1 mile.
Munz
01-06-05, 03:54 PM If you take into consideration that most buildings in Sharn merge at their base, this isn't shown in the mapping of Sharn except in some parts of Lower Wards map. With that in consideration, it would probably be fair to say the circles and odd shapes are just a representation of the building's placement and not it's actual size or even shape. After all, what's to say all towers are circular as they rise, or don't take different form. Just look at the description for the Noble Tower.

Anyway, I'm sure 1 inch=1 mile would work fine. By comparison, it would only make Sharn's border a bit wider.

Ah well... it's often the simple things that work best.
cbolt_toak
01-07-05, 12:57 AM Would the map of Skyway on page 87 be 1 in. = 4 miles then?
EbonStorms
01-12-05, 01:01 PM I have a problem with the 1 inch = 1 mile theorem. I was mapping Oldkeep (Lower Dura) and the book states that there should be between 260 and 270 buildings. But at 1 inch = 1 mile that would put the land area of Oldkeep at 1.3 square miles or able to fit 155 standard city blocks. That works out to be a little over 1 and a half buildings per city block size. This means that those Poor Residences would be 175,000 square foot homes (per level) which is MUCH larger than I would expect and far beyond the sample lower level streets maps in the back of the book. The typical city block contains between 15 and 30 homes, and I would expect lower Sharn to be very crowded.

So if you change it to 1 inch = 4 miles then Oldkeep would be about 10 city blocks, which would fit in great, except for the Large Towers. Lyrandar tower, for example, being 2000 feet in diameter would extent beyond its district’s limits.

You have four known factors:
The Number of Building in each district
The Size of the Largest Towers
The lower level example map in the back of the book
The maps on pages 37, 43, and 49

I seem unable to find a working measurement that would fit all of these. For the purpose of my game and mapping I’m going to make a DM call and state that 1 inch = 2/3 miles (3,419 feet). This will either make buildings far apart or extremely large. I’m going with extremely large buildings with the story line that large portions of the buildings are uninhabitable because of years of decay.

Anyone else have any thoughts?
Munz
01-12-05, 02:02 PM I hear what you are saying, but keep one important thing in mind; Sharn was built up rather than out. As you have stated, Oldkeep should be able to fit about 155 standard city blocks. However, at the time of Sharn's rebirth from the ruined city of Shaarat keep in mind that the ruins of the goblinoid remains was sealed off and built on top of from there. So you have the concept that whatever remaining foundations or keeps or towers were in existence at the time were simply built on top of.

In this aspect it is easy for me to imagine why some of the towers seem to merge at their bases; they simply needed to for structural or design support. So with this in mind, consider that the book also mentions shops and buildings literally built within the structure of a single tower. Also for some reason I am thinking I read somewhere that each level of Sharn (Upper, Middle, Lower, etc.) has multi-levels to that.

If it helps, think of each tower as a multi-level-circular-shopping-mall. Sharn: City of Towers makes mention that roads and streets literally run THROUGH towers (as opposed to between them).

So yes, things are going to be crowded. Considering if you think of the buildings not shown on the maps as being INSIDE the towers, then it might explain why given the population of Sharn (and Residential Districts being a lesser part of the whole) that many people who live in the Lower Wards are condensed to only a fraction of the 175,000 sq. ft. home you were referring to.

Sharn:... tells of there being apartment buildings within Residential Districts; but I am tempted to believe that just as many of the illustrations show, Sharn is a city where people and their places of employment are packed into each tower like canned tuna. To me anyways, this aspect explains why so many take their livelihoods and business to the streets and skyways and bridges that connect every Tower.

That's the best explanation I can think of for my interpretation of it anyways. I actually found the scale to be a little less than an inch equalling a mile, so I just adapted and figured the maps drawn in the book are only representational anyways.

I mean, it's not likely these guys went to school for architecture like I did.

Hope this helps,

M
EbonStorms
01-12-05, 04:46 PM I completely agree that buildings within other buildings and towers makes since, the bottom of a large tower acting like a courtyard. However, if I may compare one fantasy city to another, if the 1” to 1 mile holds then the entire city of Minas Tirith could fit within the ward of Oldkeep (at least if it was flat).

OK Sharn is a big city and I could accept that, but there are a lot of buildings within the radius of Minas Tirith, and limiting the same area to 260 buildings would be odd and not keeping with the urban theme or the map in the back of the Sharn book.

Also the cross-view of Sharn looks as though the lower level would have between 3 to 5 stories high.

Another oddity for the building of Oldkeep: There are about 1,200 people in that area living in 260 building. That would be less than 5 people per building average. Granted that is average, but that would give people a lot of room for poor, slum conditions. There must be a lot of space use up by old city walls, flying buttresses, ruins, and other such filler to make the map full. I’m going to try to get a mapped example of Oldkeep here tomorrow so people might be able to give me more advice. I’m afraid I’m having some difficulty wrapping my mind around the fantasy urban setting.
WilliamPall
01-12-05, 06:14 PM The one thing that I remember from readingthe sharn book in regard tothe maps is that note that states thatthe maps are not to scale. you can't base any of your measurements from the maps because they just aren't to scale.
Munz
01-13-05, 08:18 AM Ah! Good point... ok, so um... case closed?
Altaris
01-13-05, 09:51 AM I know as soon as I create the map it will be wrong, disenthroned by some official book or novel, but I'll use it for my game and I will post the maps on our campaign's web site. When I get them done, I'll post the link here for those interested.

That would be awesome Ebon! I'm also running a Sharn:CoT campaign now, and I'm not very good with maps. I tend to describe things as appropriate and when needed for the scene. Still, maps would help out a lot.

Will you be keeping us posted as to the events in your campaign, on the website? I'm interested to see how your game unfolds.
EbonStorms
01-13-05, 10:16 AM I'm running two campaigns. One for 5th level characters that will play once or twice a year and one for starting level players that will start next month and talk place monthly. I have the details of the 5th level campaign online in the players journal (http://www.lastsummer.com/dd/dwj.html). I will keep the maps, NPCs and campaign notes for both campaigns as soon as they both start and I get organized.
EbonStorms
01-14-05, 06:57 PM Here is my preliminary map of Oldkeep in Lower Dura, Sharn. This is the bottom level of this section of the city. The gray buildings are at least one level high (most are much higher). I still have to add the little things like trees, statues, etc, but it does have the 270 buildings mentioned in the book (I have to identify them yet). Does anyone have any comments?

Oldkeep (http://www.lastsummer.com/dd/Oldkeep.pdf)
cbolt_toak
01-15-05, 05:57 PM :clap: <---that's what I think about it.

Heh, we should go ahead and have a message board project to build all of Sharn, a not-so-official construction of the entire city, including awesome maps like that, NPCs to run businesses, stuff like that.

I'm no good with maps, but everything else I know how to do well. Even with Oldkeep I could go ahead and make a list of NPCs that are the people who work in Oldkeep, as well as their families and some minor odd-jobs the players could do for them for a little gold and/or XP.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
EbonStorms 01-05-05, 03:06 PM	Sharn: City of Towers has some nice maps of the city (pages 37, 43, and 49). Does anyone know to what scale these maps are? I'm mapping some of the districts for my campaign and I'm not sure how big to make the map. It looks like it should be something like 1 inch = 1 mile, but I can not be sure. Anyone know? Thanks.
Khopesh122 01-05-05, 03:58 PM	I wish I could remember where (and can't find a reference in the A.K.B. FAQ) but I think Keith said he wasn't certain but that 1 inch = 1 mile looked about right EDIT Found the reference Here it is (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=4940398&highlight=inch+mile#post4940398)
papytofu 01-05-05, 09:43 PM	I'm affraid i cannot help you on this issue but could I be audacious enoguh to ask you if you would send me those maps when they'll be finished? It would be really nice of you and really appreciated. Thanks a lot!
Edymnion 01-05-05, 09:46 PM	I'm affraid i cannot help you on this issue but could I be audacious enoguh to ask you if you would send me those maps when they'll be finished? It would be really nice of you and really appreciated. Thanks a lot!They're in the Sharn: City of Towers book. If ya want the maps, you have to buy the book :)
papytofu 01-05-05, 09:49 PM	I have the book I talk about the map that Ebonstrom will do. :D You think i'm this kind of man, I'm insulted and i provoke you in duel to clean my honor. :D
Edymnion 01-05-05, 10:08 PM	I have the book I talk about the map that Ebonstrom will do. :D You think i'm this kind of man, I'm insulted and i provoke you in duel to clean my honor. :Dsmacks himself with a glove Whoops, this is what I get for skimming :P
EbonStorms 01-05-05, 10:43 PM	I'm starting a campaign with 1st level players and will play as long as they want to. We will be starting in Old Keep in Lower Dura and I am going to map the area in Fractal Mapper including all lower level buildings (Housing, Shops, etc.). As the campaign grows I will map additional sections as needed. I know as soon as I create the map it will be wrong, disenthroned by some official book or novel, but I'll use it for my game and I will post the maps on our campaign's web site. When I get them done, I'll post the link here for those interested.
Munz 01-06-05, 01:22 PM	Here's an idea... It says in the Sharn: City of Towers handbook that most towers are 800 feet to 2500 feet in diameter at their base. So, look at the map of middle wards (since the lower wards do not appear to have many biggere towers represented; must be representing the towers touching at the base) and do the comparison. Find the biggest diameter drawn for a tower and with a seperate piece of paper or string, draw or make a length for that circle's diameter. Call that 2,500 feet. Since 5,280 feet is a mile, roughly two towers right next to each other at the base would be 1 mile wide. So, measure with a ruler how wide the largest tower is drawn to be and figure that times two. When I looked into it, I figured a larger tower to be just about 3/8 of an inch. So in this aspect, 3/4 of an inch just about equals 1 mile or you could one further and say 3 inches equals 4 miles. That's looking from the Upper, Middle, and Lower Wards' pictures in the book. So that's my estimate anyways. Let me know if this helps! M
EbonStorms 01-06-05, 02:44 PM	I did something similar (that is how I got the 1 inch = 1 Mile). I read in the web enhancement on Lyrandar Tower where it is 2000 feet at its base. I then used the middle ward map and picked a circular tower in the Central Plateau and did calculations by that. I ended up with 1 inch being equal to slightly larger than 1 mile (the same as you I think) but I rounded to 1 inch = 1 mile.
Munz 01-06-05, 03:54 PM	If you take into consideration that most buildings in Sharn merge at their base, this isn't shown in the mapping of Sharn except in some parts of Lower Wards map. With that in consideration, it would probably be fair to say the circles and odd shapes are just a representation of the building's placement and not it's actual size or even shape. After all, what's to say all towers are circular as they rise, or don't take different form. Just look at the description for the Noble Tower. Anyway, I'm sure 1 inch=1 mile would work fine. By comparison, it would only make Sharn's border a bit wider. Ah well... it's often the simple things that work best.
cbolt_toak 01-07-05, 12:57 AM	Would the map of Skyway on page 87 be 1 in. = 4 miles then?
EbonStorms 01-12-05, 01:01 PM	I have a problem with the 1 inch = 1 mile theorem. I was mapping Oldkeep (Lower Dura) and the book states that there should be between 260 and 270 buildings. But at 1 inch = 1 mile that would put the land area of Oldkeep at 1.3 square miles or able to fit 155 standard city blocks. That works out to be a little over 1 and a half buildings per city block size. This means that those Poor Residences would be 175,000 square foot homes (per level) which is MUCH larger than I would expect and far beyond the sample lower level streets maps in the back of the book. The typical city block contains between 15 and 30 homes, and I would expect lower Sharn to be very crowded. So if you change it to 1 inch = 4 miles then Oldkeep would be about 10 city blocks, which would fit in great, except for the Large Towers. Lyrandar tower, for example, being 2000 feet in diameter would extent beyond its district’s limits. You have four known factors: The Number of Building in each district The Size of the Largest Towers The lower level example map in the back of the book The maps on pages 37, 43, and 49 I seem unable to find a working measurement that would fit all of these. For the purpose of my game and mapping I’m going to make a DM call and state that 1 inch = 2/3 miles (3,419 feet). This will either make buildings far apart or extremely large. I’m going with extremely large buildings with the story line that large portions of the buildings are uninhabitable because of years of decay. Anyone else have any thoughts?
Munz 01-12-05, 02:02 PM	I hear what you are saying, but keep one important thing in mind; Sharn was built up rather than out. As you have stated, Oldkeep should be able to fit about 155 standard city blocks. However, at the time of Sharn's rebirth from the ruined city of Shaarat keep in mind that the ruins of the goblinoid remains was sealed off and built on top of from there. So you have the concept that whatever remaining foundations or keeps or towers were in existence at the time were simply built on top of. In this aspect it is easy for me to imagine why some of the towers seem to merge at their bases; they simply needed to for structural or design support. So with this in mind, consider that the book also mentions shops and buildings literally built within the structure of a single tower. Also for some reason I am thinking I read somewhere that each level of Sharn (Upper, Middle, Lower, etc.) has multi-levels to that. If it helps, think of each tower as a multi-level-circular-shopping-mall. Sharn: City of Towers makes mention that roads and streets literally run THROUGH towers (as opposed to between them). So yes, things are going to be crowded. Considering if you think of the buildings not shown on the maps as being INSIDE the towers, then it might explain why given the population of Sharn (and Residential Districts being a lesser part of the whole) that many people who live in the Lower Wards are condensed to only a fraction of the 175,000 sq. ft. home you were referring to. Sharn:... tells of there being apartment buildings within Residential Districts; but I am tempted to believe that just as many of the illustrations show, Sharn is a city where people and their places of employment are packed into each tower like canned tuna. To me anyways, this aspect explains why so many take their livelihoods and business to the streets and skyways and bridges that connect every Tower. That's the best explanation I can think of for my interpretation of it anyways. I actually found the scale to be a little less than an inch equalling a mile, so I just adapted and figured the maps drawn in the book are only representational anyways. I mean, it's not likely these guys went to school for architecture like I did. Hope this helps, M
EbonStorms 01-12-05, 04:46 PM	I completely agree that buildings within other buildings and towers makes since, the bottom of a large tower acting like a courtyard. However, if I may compare one fantasy city to another, if the 1” to 1 mile holds then the entire city of Minas Tirith could fit within the ward of Oldkeep (at least if it was flat). OK Sharn is a big city and I could accept that, but there are a lot of buildings within the radius of Minas Tirith, and limiting the same area to 260 buildings would be odd and not keeping with the urban theme or the map in the back of the Sharn book. Also the cross-view of Sharn looks as though the lower level would have between 3 to 5 stories high. Another oddity for the building of Oldkeep: There are about 1,200 people in that area living in 260 building. That would be less than 5 people per building average. Granted that is average, but that would give people a lot of room for poor, slum conditions. There must be a lot of space use up by old city walls, flying buttresses, ruins, and other such filler to make the map full. I’m going to try to get a mapped example of Oldkeep here tomorrow so people might be able to give me more advice. I’m afraid I’m having some difficulty wrapping my mind around the fantasy urban setting.
WilliamPall 01-12-05, 06:14 PM	The one thing that I remember from readingthe sharn book in regard tothe maps is that note that states thatthe maps are not to scale. you can't base any of your measurements from the maps because they just aren't to scale.
Munz 01-13-05, 08:18 AM	Ah! Good point... ok, so um... case closed?
Altaris 01-13-05, 09:51 AM	I know as soon as I create the map it will be wrong, disenthroned by some official book or novel, but I'll use it for my game and I will post the maps on our campaign's web site. When I get them done, I'll post the link here for those interested. That would be awesome Ebon! I'm also running a Sharn:CoT campaign now, and I'm not very good with maps. I tend to describe things as appropriate and when needed for the scene. Still, maps would help out a lot. Will you be keeping us posted as to the events in your campaign, on the website? I'm interested to see how your game unfolds.
EbonStorms 01-13-05, 10:16 AM	I'm running two campaigns. One for 5th level characters that will play once or twice a year and one for starting level players that will start next month and talk place monthly. I have the details of the 5th level campaign online in the players journal (http://www.lastsummer.com/dd/dwj.html). I will keep the maps, NPCs and campaign notes for both campaigns as soon as they both start and I get organized.
EbonStorms 01-14-05, 06:57 PM	Here is my preliminary map of Oldkeep in Lower Dura, Sharn. This is the bottom level of this section of the city. The gray buildings are at least one level high (most are much higher). I still have to add the little things like trees, statues, etc, but it does have the 270 buildings mentioned in the book (I have to identify them yet). Does anyone have any comments? Oldkeep (http://www.lastsummer.com/dd/Oldkeep.pdf)
cbolt_toak 01-15-05, 05:57 PM	:clap: <---that's what I think about it. Heh, we should go ahead and have a message board project to build all of Sharn, a not-so-official construction of the entire city, including awesome maps like that, NPCs to run businesses, stuff like that. I'm no good with maps, but everything else I know how to do well. Even with Oldkeep I could go ahead and make a list of NPCs that are the people who work in Oldkeep, as well as their families and some minor odd-jobs the players could do for them for a little gold and/or XP.