Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Takasi 11-04-04, 04:15 PM	According to the Mark of Heroes FAQ (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=rpga/articles/moh20041018faq), campaign cards from Set 1 unlock the whisper gnome (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3) from Races of Stone. Is this the beginning of "subraces" in Eberron? The original designer's vision for the setting did not involve stat changes for racial differences. Any thoughts on this?
stone_dog 11-04-04, 04:20 PM	Yeah, that rubbed me right the wrong way as well. I still might just get into the RPGA for the extra adventures and stuff, but whisper gnomes? Why not goliaths? Why not full blooded orcs? Why not kenku or anything else cool that isn't stuff tacked onto an existing race?
mistakeagian 11-04-04, 08:13 PM	I agree, when i read that I was quit disturbed. I really think the whisper Gnome is just a twink race, let alone adding it to Eberron.
Korhal IV 11-04-04, 08:48 PM	No subraces! Please! :eek:
Hellcow 11-05-04, 07:37 PM	Is this the beginning of "subraces" in Eberron? The original designer's vision for the setting did not involve stat changes for racial differences. Any thoughts on this? For what it's worth, my opinions on this have not changed. Zil society certainly has a place for silent rogues and assassins, but I feel that this can be accomplished without changing racial statistics (in fact, there's a Zil assassin statted out in Sharn who is notably a standard gnome). I would guess that the goal is to allow RPGA players to get the most out of books they have bought -- since after all, in a normal Eberron campaign, your DM could always choose to add whisper gnomes into the world. But I do not expect to see whisper gnomes or other subraces incorporated into Eberron sourcebooks. Of course, I could always be wrong, but that's the direction we've taken to this point.
Hellcow 11-05-04, 07:59 PM	With that said, as I recall the name of the card is "Off The Beaten Path" and the description says "You are... a member of a shadowy hidden race..." With that in mind, while I don't use subraces and would prefer not to see them in official sourcebooks, if someone said "We really really want whisper gnomes in our game", I'd give them a similar answer to someone who wanted to use duergar or svirvneblem -- Khyber is deep and mysterious, and perhaps there is a small, hidden enclave of gnomes in the depths who have been altered by its power. Or perhaps a single familiy of Cyran gnomes survived the Mourning but were twisted inside. Eberron is designed to provide options for the DM who wants to include any sort of material in his game, and while I won't be using whisper gnomes I can easily come up with stories for how someone else could. Since the RPGA has made the WG "off the beaten path", they aren't saying that there's cities of whisper gnomes in the world -- they are just allowing the player who wants to use this race to do so. So in short, the RPGA is making a DM decision and deciding that there are a few whisper gnomes hidden in the cracks somewhere; that doesn't mean that you'll see a flourishing whisper gnome civilization appear in the main books.
SRM 11-05-04, 08:50 PM	With that said, as I recall the name of the card is "Off The Beaten Path" and the description says "You are... a member of a shadowy hidden race..." With that in mind, while I don't use subraces and would prefer not to see them in official sourcebooks, if someone said "We really really want whisper gnomes in our game", I'd give them a similar answer to someone who wanted to use duergar or svirvneblem -- Khyber is deep and mysterious, and perhaps there is a small, hidden enclave of gnomes in the depths who have been altered by its power. Or perhaps a single familiy of Cyran gnomes survived the Mourning but were twisted inside. Eberron is designed to provide options for the DM who wants to include any sort of material in his game, and while I won't be using whisper gnomes I can easily come up with stories for how someone else could. Since the RPGA has made the WG "off the beaten path", they aren't saying that there's cities of whisper gnomes in the world -- they are just allowing the player who wants to use this race to do so. So in short, the RPGA is making a DM decision and deciding that there are a few whisper gnomes hidden in the cracks somewhere; that doesn't mean that you'll see a flourishing whisper gnome civilization appear in the main books. Keith has it exactly right here. The purpose of putting the whisper gnome in the "Off the Beaten Track" card was to give a few players a somewhat unique character option in the spirit of "if it exists in D&D, then it has a place in Eberron." The Mark of Heroes campaign has no plans to carve out a kingdom, city, or even ghetto for this rare and interesting character option, nor will we really even explain why some gnomes manifested these different traits, though my favorite explanation is that it could be the decedents of a small clan somehow touched (or corrupted?) by contact with Mabar some time in its history. That's probably the explanation I will use in my home campaign, and allow them to take the warlock class from Complete Arcane. Working on Mark of Heroes and said home campaign (set primarily in Droaam—that hag land is yummy stuff!) I am just amazed at how big Eberron actually is. There are a lot of people (and thus stories and skullduggery) and large swaths of land filled with many exciting locales. While I understand why Keith and others don't want a proliferation of common subraces, and agree with the reasons why, my personal advice is don't limit yourself when coming up with adventure ideas and working with players to come up with interesting character concepts. Sometime breaking convention can add wonder, mystery and fun. All things that contribute to a good gaming vibe. The "odd" character is fun to play...and that's why we put the whisper gnome in the options list. It's also why we put in the "City Goblin" card, but the bullet and allowed kalashtar psionic characters (a first for an RPGA D&D campaign) and why one of the fastplay characters is going to be a kobold. Stephen Radney-MacFarland RPGA Content Manager Wizards of the Coast
Hellcow 11-05-04, 11:28 PM	The purpose of putting the whisper gnome in the "Off the Beaten Track" card was to give a few players a somewhat unique character option in the spirit of "if it exists in D&D, then it has a place in Eberron." And in that light, it makes perfect sense to me. Again, I can see having my party stumble upon a tiny hidden city of whisper gnomes -- it's just that a) I'd come up with some sort of supernatural explanation for their divergence, be it Khyber/Mourning mutation or bond to Mabar, and b) the whole point would be that they were rare and mysterious and have no place in the greater world. Finding the lost city of morlocks or albino fish people is certainly a classic pulp tradition, and there's no reason why this same principle can't be applied to derro or whisper gnomes. But the point remains that the race would (in my campaign) have no significant impact on the world, and the party might even be the first outsiders to have ever encountered them. The "odd" character is fun to play...and that's why we put the whisper gnome in the options list. It's also why we put in the "City Goblin" card, but the bullet and allowed kalashtar psionic characters (a first for an RPGA D&D campaign) and why one of the fastplay characters is going to be a kobold. I was definitely glad to see both the kalashtar and the goblin options, and I think the kobold is a fun idea - I look forward to seeing the character!
JohnnyONeal 01-06-05, 11:28 AM	It's good to hear Keith's opinion on this. (For people who don't have any idea what we're talking about, check out Races of Stone or this excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3).) I'm a big fan of the "no subraces" concept, and as a DM I don't allow any of the endless elf variants (beyond generic elves and drow). But I might actually use whisper gnomes in my own campaign. For one thing, it can be hard to make the Small races attractive to players, and what some people see as an overpowered race I see as a chance to bring gnomes up to the power level of humans, elves, and dwarves. For another, I actually think this race just feels right in Eberron. Whisper gnomes already have plenty in common with Eberron gnomes: a tendency toward stealth, conspiracies, and unseen machinations. Because the concept of Zilargo was built using charismatic, bardic, prestidigitation-casting gnomes, I wouldn't dream of simply replacing core gnomes with whisper gnomes. But the shadowy, conspiratorial nature of the Trust and other gnome organizations seems like a perfect fit for whisper gnomes. So my conclusion is to say that whisper gnomes look identical to standard gnomes, are born to gnome parents, and are only recognized as different because of their different abilities. They represent an arcane mutation whose origin is a mystery but which seems tied to Mabar or Khyber (and the rumors of dark-skinned gnomes who live in the depths of the Dragon Below). They can never manifest dragonmarks, but it's possible for them to be born to dragonmarked parents. So there you go. It's not awesome, and I always hesitate to use anything that's not 100% Hellcow-approved, but it works for me. Anyone else out there using whisper gnomes in Eberron?
Golbez57 01-06-05, 02:40 PM	I have not used whisper gnomes. However, Races of Stone has been a fun "sit on one of the comfy chairs and skim" reads at the local large bookstore. I'm especially interested in the goliaths. My tendency would be to place a small number of goliath communities on Xen'drik in our campaign, if I ever snagged the book and one of the players in our game was absolutely taken with the idea of playing one. I'm interested in what roles the small and relatively frail elven slaves played for the giants that once ruled that continent. Perhaps they were valued for their craftsmanship, or their mobility in cramped spaces (mines, dense forests, and so on) the giants could not navigate? At any rate, I imagine those same masters would appreciate brawny servitors, too, and the distant ancestors of the goliaths might have served this role. As far as other "nonstandard" races and sub-races go, I use the former as is appropriate to the story and adventure locale and the latter only once so far... both in the same story arc. As an example, the heroes made their way to the Frostfell, and have encountered both a pair of glacier dwarves and are at the moment locked in battle with a tribe of neanderthals. Now, I'm could have just as easily used standard dwarves, but as they were living in a very small (and secretive) settlement that included other dwarves, I wanted to easily contrast them and create a sense of "hey, where did THESE guys come from?" mystery among the players. I'm working with both the presumption that Khorvaire's dwarves did indeed originate in the Frostfell, and that some remained behind and are racially distinct in minor ways. The neanderthals, like the goliaths, just interested me, and since they are far removed from the main continent and the central action of the story, I decided to make use of them and have them exist in smal numbers. For me, I have only used things--from the "core books" or otherwise--that mesh with both the tone of Eberron as it's been presented to us, and with the storytelling needs of our own campaign. A sandbox is only fun until it is so full of toys or people that one can't move without running into something or someone.
Neofish 01-06-05, 07:08 PM	It's good to hear Keith's opinion on this. (For people who don't have any idea what we're talking about, check out Races of Stone or this excerpt (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040807a&page=3).) I'm a big fan of the "no subraces" concept, and as a DM I don't allow any of the endless elf variants (beyond generic elves and drow). But I might actually use whisper gnomes in my own campaign. For one thing, it can be hard to make the Small races attractive to players, and what some people see as an overpowered race I see as a chance to bring gnomes up to the power level of humans, elves, and dwarves. For another, I actually think this race just feels right in Eberron. Whisper gnomes already have plenty in common with Eberron gnomes: a tendency toward stealth, conspiracies, and unseen machinations. Because the concept of Zilargo was built using charismatic, bardic, prestidigitation-casting gnomes, I wouldn't dream of simply replacing core gnomes with whisper gnomes. But the shadowy, conspiratorial nature of the Trust and other gnome organizations seems like a perfect fit for whisper gnomes. So my conclusion is to say that whisper gnomes look identical to standard gnomes, are born to gnome parents, and are only recognized as different because of their different abilities. They represent an arcane mutation whose origin is a mystery but which seems tied to Mabar or Khyber (and the rumors of dark-skinned gnomes who live in the depths of the Dragon Below). They can never manifest dragonmarks, but it's possible for them to be born to dragonmarked parents. So there you go. It's not awesome, and I always hesitate to use anything that's not 100% Hellcow-approved, but it works for me. Anyone else out there using whisper gnomes in Eberron? But that's just it Jhonny, thier not gnomes, thier whisper gnomes, and they won't bring small characters back into spotlight becasue they are both a halfling and a gnome rolled into one, with +10 speed tacked on, oh and with the silence ability, oh and did I mention you get all this without a level adjustment. The whisper gnome takes away more than it gives from the small races. No, this is the begining of the end of Eberron... at least it was good while it lasted...
WilliamPall 01-06-05, 07:27 PM	No, this is the begining of the end of Eberron... Oh come now Neofish . . . no need to be so pessimestic. Look at the glass as half full, not half empty of beer and on it's way to a frat boy's mouth. But I do not expect to see whisper gnomes or other subraces incorporated into Eberron sourcebooks. Ya see . . . Core Eberron is still safe. The Mark of Heroes campaign has no plans to carve out a kingdom, city, or even ghetto for this rare and interesting character option, nor will we really even explain why some gnomes manifested these different traits. Ya see . . . No plans . . . Come now . . . no pessimitic attitudes.
Gez 01-07-05, 03:07 AM	No, this is the begining of the end of Eberron... at least it was good while it lasted... The beginning of the end was when work began on the Dragonshards computer game: Hey, guys, in that setting we have to work on, you see, the drow are jungle-living scorpion-kissers instead of cave-dwelling spider-kissers! They haven't been cast out in the Netherworld long ago by their brethren whom they now hate because of that! - You mean it's really not FR, then? - Yeah, it sure seems so. - But it's not D&D setting without drowy drows! - I agree, but, hey, we're told to make an Eberron game, it's not my fault if WotC don't know what's good for the business. - But we have began to work on our drows! First thing we've made, even! We already had cool concept art for drow blackguards and all! - There may be a way to have real drow anyway. - Oh? How? - Well, you just have to not call them drow. Call them, uh, Shadowborn Elves! That's a cool name! - There's already Warforged. Maybe we should avoid too much compound names. - Why? People like them, they're easy to understand. Anyway, you can always go to the approximative latin/greek roots and call them Umbragen. Means the same thing. - It sure has a nice ring to it. - Yes. So, these Umbragen have been cast out by the other elves long ago and exiled to the depth of the Underdark. In that world, the Underdark is thought to be a bound evil cosmical dragon who creates all sorts of monsters, so the Umbragen have been tainted and have become completely evil and sinister and dark. Daaaaark, even. - Cool! Can we make them have pet spiders, too? - Don't press our luck, it would be too blatant. We need to cover our tracks! Merge them a bit with the Githyanki. - The what? - A cool psionic race. They are ancient enemies of the squidhead braineater folks, the mindflayers. They are ruled by a lich queen. Mix and match that with the dr..., err, Umbragen, and we're golden! - Kewl! The Umbragen Lich Queen Concept Art. (http://home.earthlink.net/~dungeonmaster01/images/Concept_art/Umbragen_Lich_final_color.jpg) The link was called Umbragen Death Knight, and it sure bears a striking similarity with the Lich Queen above, but you'll notice the picture bears the caption Drow Death Knight. (http://home.earthlink.net/~dungeonmaster01/images/GenCon/DeathKnight.jpg) Concept art for an Umbragen city. (http://home.earthlink.net/~dungeonmaster01/images/Concept_art/Umbragen_Building_Unlit_Cavern_Concept.j pg) Links that (http://www.gamevortex.com/gamevortex/soft_prev.php/65) may be (http://www.3dnewz.com/forumz/showthread.php?postid=255975#post255975) of interest (http://www.3dnewz.com/forumz/showthread.php?&postid=254060#post254060).
Hellcow 01-07-05, 12:49 PM	So, these Umbragen have been cast out by the other elves long ago and exiled to the depth of the Underdark. In that world, the Underdark is thought to be a bound evil cosmical dragon who creates all sorts of monsters, so the Umbragen have been tainted and have become completely evil and sinister and dark. Daaaaark, even. As someone who worked on Dragonshard and on the upcoming Dragon article discussing the Umbragen, I have to say that this is far off the mark. The history and philosophy of the Umbragen is considerably more complex than this, and they aren't "evil elves tainted by the Underdark". And who said they were cast out by other elves? I'll also note that they are a drow subculture, not a drow subrace (not that you said they were) - it's the difference between Aereni and Valenar, not Sun Elves and Moon Elves. They have unusual traditions that can end up taking a physical toll on a character, but it's not an inherent difference - it's a path you choose to follow. And as Vol shows, necromancy is part of the history of the elves - elven liches are not an alien concept to Eberron. And if you say "Sure, but Vol was Aereni" - the history of elven necromancy goes back beyond Aerenal. The Umbragen have a stronger tie to the history of Eberron that you're giving them credit for, as will become clear in the future. If you've read previews or such suggesting otherwise, well, all I can say is I'm the one who wrote the Dragon article describing their culture and history - so I think I'm a more reliable source. ;) As for Whisper Gnomes being the doom of Eberron, I'll say again that while they are in the RPGA campaign, that doesn't mean you're going to see them dealt with in Eberron sourcebooks. Use them if you want, just like all D&D material - but we have no plans to switch horses and dive into subraces. (At least, as far as I know.)
polt 01-07-05, 02:18 PM	From what i've heard, it's a drow subculture with strong ties to the shadow plane.
Hellcow 01-07-05, 04:04 PM	From what i've heard, it's a drow subculture with strong ties to the shadow plane. Nope. The force the umbragen deal with is something quite different, with a distinct connection to the history of Eberron.
Thramzorean 01-08-05, 01:02 AM	:rofl: while we love your comments Keith you must give the WotC moderators nightmares :rofl: :cheer: {Please keep it up, there hasn't been anything so good at decoporatizing WotC since Mark's work on the psionics boards}