Maruts and BoV [Archive] - Wizards Community

Maruts and BoV [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
KP91
07-13-05, 08:24 PM Maruts are Inevitables that basicly hunt undead (or anyone else who unaturally extends their life). I don't think I have to ask for you to realize this doesn't add up in Eberron. Lots of Liches and stuff. Plus what about the Undying Court. A player brought this up because he is playing a monk that worships the ultimate Law, the Inevitables.

I realize it wouldn't happen too often, probably mostly when the Davani is Conterminious, but you'd think there would be fewer liches in Eberron and no Undying Court with the exception of the stronger Acendant Councilor.
MT-296 "Dagger"
07-13-05, 08:29 PM Your Kidding right? Aerenal Elves are very Very Very protective of there Deathless. and I think there are quite a few of the Deathless. An Inevitible would stand no chance.
ydirbut
07-13-05, 09:10 PM Irrelevant. Inievitables are not afraid to die. I had the exact same thought a couple weeks ago. There's a thread on it a couple pages back. That could be the reason the Deathless don't commonly leave Aerenal though.
stone_dog
07-13-05, 09:50 PM Maruts hang in Dolurrh, not Daanvi. Just saying.

In Eberron they might well be focused on keeping souls in Dolurrh and not so much with venturing out to make sure people go there. Perhaps they are in a conflict with Nalfeshees who share the plane of death with them that takes up most of their time. Maybe there just aren't enough of them wandering about to be a going concern.

As far as the deathless go, it just may be that they don't fall under the marut definition of unnatural. Reading the description of the Deathless Type on ECS 275 I think the setting agrees with me. It describes the undead as a mockery of life and a violation of the natural order of life and death, while the deathless are describes as having actually died, but have returned to a kind of spiritual life. Looking at that, I don't think that a marut would care about such a creature.
Raster
07-14-05, 11:31 AM ...We need a Manual of the Planes: Eberron Style...
ydirbut
07-14-05, 01:36 PM We do
The Fireballed Mage
07-14-05, 02:38 PM Or you can just assume that the Deathless and some liches/vampires/etc, have a place in the grand scheme that isn't obvious to you/me/PCs.

Maybe there are only a limited number of Inevitables, and quite frankly, they've got a huge backlog of cases to deal with before they can get to any on the (Eberron) Prime Plane.

Maybe the BoV, Undying Court, and others play a role in the Phophecy, and as such are off limits to random Inevitable attack.

Maybe the Inevitables as not a free willed as thought, and only go after targets once instructed to by their (mysterious) superiors.

Or, maybe, just maybe, people are looking too deep into certain aspects of D&D, when the answer probably is, "Whatever makes a good story."

After all, who needs adventurers to save them if every time a vampire is spawned some clockwork thing drops in from out of plane to bash it out of existance?
Stainawarjar
07-14-05, 07:03 PM ...We need a Manual of the Planes: Eberron Style...

Yes. we do.

Another suggestion: is it not possible the undying court is hiding their existence from them somehow? It's not like inevitables are allknowing.

If the masters of the maruts were to learn of the existence of the court, I imagine they'd send a single marut first. Then another. then 2, then 3, then 5, 8, 13, 21, 34... and so on. Remember they're on an infinite plane, so they're theoretically infinite in number.

Would make for a great adventure. How do we stop these soon to be overwhelming attacks upon our "gods"?
Titanic Ego
07-14-05, 11:19 PM I very much doubt that the maruts are infinite in number. The Quori, angels, demons, devils, archons, etc all exist in finite numbers (in fact, a fixed finite number, since the death of one causes the spawning of another.) Of course, they can keep attacking as new ones spawn, but there will be a lag time for the replacement to form and enter battle.

I don't see maruts as being opposed to all undeath/resurrection/immortality. Instead, they have specific laws governing such infractions, a price to be paid for each offense. Perhaps liches and vampires are allowed to exist for a certain amount of time before being attacked. If they defeat the maruts, they are allowed to exist for another period. Or perhaps they intervene to prevent liches and vampires from disrupting the order of Eberron, e.g. if Vol started converting hundreds of villagers into vampire spawn or openly attacking Karnnath they would take her out but otherwise allow her to go unmolested.
EscherEnigma
07-15-05, 03:12 AM With the general idea that there shouldn't be powerful people willing to bail the PCs out of trouble, and some extra planar creature with a chip on its shoulder about undead being one such thing if the PCs have a nasty run-in with the Blood of Vol, I'd say that they are both finite and small in numbers, and have most of their time swallowed with their work on Dolurrh (or wherever they are). There may be one or two wandering the material plane trying to work against undeath, but they simply don't have the numbers to commit to a war on undeath and still maintain their plane. If undead start to get TOO much power, and really starts to screw with things, they might try to interfere, but at that point I'd say there isn't much they can do.

With that said, I don't actually have the Planar Handbook, so I don't know how individually powerful these guys are. But it DOES seem strange that there could be a group of powerful outsiders out there set specifically to hunt undead, and yet have them so wide spread in most settings.
Zedium
07-15-05, 05:22 AM Well, easy answer probably why the Maruts aren't hunting down all undead in Eberron en masse: They can't reach it unless the plane is coterminous. This means they have to either come through manifest zones or when the plane is near. And maybe they are indeed only concerned with keeping people inside the plane, instead of hunting down every zombie out there.
talion09
07-15-05, 05:36 AM ...

With that said, I don't actually have the Planar Handbook, so I don't know how individually powerful these guys are. But it DOES seem strange that there could be a group of powerful outsiders out there set specifically to hunt undead, and yet have them so wide spread in most settings.

Maruts are listed under the heading of Inevitables in the Monster Manual 3.5, so they should also be in the SRD as well.
Titanic Ego
07-15-05, 09:01 AM Maruts are listed under the heading of Inevitables in the Monster Manual 3.5, so they should also be in the SRD as well.
They are indeed:

"Any who use unnatural means to extend their life span could be targeted by a marut. Those who take extraordinary measures to cheat death in some other way might be labeled transgressors as well. Those who use magic to reverse death aren’t worthy of a marut’s attention unless they do so repeatedly or on a massive scale."
Stainawarjar
07-15-05, 10:50 AM I very much doubt that the maruts are infinite in number. The Quori, angels, demons, devils, archons, etc all exist in finite numbers (in fact, a fixed finite number, since the death of one causes the spawning of another.)

That the death of one causes the spawning of another does not necessarily mean they're finite in number.

If outsiders are finite in number, what's the rest of these infinite size planes filled with? they're not planets in an infinite void (and an infinite void does not make an infinite plane, because it makes no sense to have an infinite amount of nothing).
Titanic Ego
07-15-05, 11:13 AM That the death of one causes the spawning of another does not necessarily mean they're finite in number.

If outsiders are finite in number, what's the rest of these infinite size planes filled with? they're not planets in an infinite void (and an infinite void does not make an infinite plane, because it makes no sense to have an infinite amount of nothing).
Keith has specifically stated that the rakshasa, Quori, archons, etc are finite in number. Perhaps maruts are different as constructs (if they are actually created by someone rather than forming from Dolurrh itself) but all of the major outsider races have a fixed and finite population. I don't think that we have any reason to believe that the 13 planes are infinite: Keith has said that Dal Quor, for instance, is larger than Eberron (tens of thousands of miles across) but not endless.
Stainawarjar
07-15-05, 12:49 PM Keith has specifically stated that the rakshasa, Quori, archons, etc are finite in number. Perhaps maruts are different as constructs (if they are actually created by someone rather than forming from Dolurrh itself) but all of the major outsider races have a fixed and finite population. I don't think that we have any reason to believe that the 13 planes are infinite: Keith has said that Dal Quor, for instance, is larger than Eberron (tens of thousands of miles across) but not endless.

I aplolgize for my lack of knowledge, I shall now leave and administer an apropriate punishment from the Liber Excruciatus.
Titanic Ego
07-15-05, 01:06 PM I aplolgize for my lack of knowledge, I shall now leave and administer an apropriate punishment from the Liber Excruciatus.
Don't worry about it... Several zelekhuts will be arriving shortly anyway ;)
EscherEnigma
07-16-05, 12:20 AM whoops, well, thats what I get for assumign things and sticking my foot in my mouth. Didn't remember Inevitables in the MM 3.5. But there it is.

And, upon looking at these guys, and seeing their CR 15, I think its a good idea to find a way to limit them in some way. Becuase they certainly WOULD be after the Aerenei, Vol, and Karnnath. Well, maybe not Karnath. From reading their entry it sounds like their main targets are sentient undead.

Anyway, for my reasons stated above, I'd say limit them. That idea with the 'can only travel to Eberron when the plane is coterminous' was good, but sadly they get Plane Shift 1/week. So that good idea doesn't float. How sad. If you take that ability away, though, they become much more manageable.
Stainawarjar
07-16-05, 06:38 AM Limit them? There are something like half a a million deathless amongst the Aereni... Even if they're CR 15 it would take a lot of them!

No sentient undead in Karrnath? Then whaddaya kall :king: Kaius, mindless? :mad:

And those Zelekhuts sure made a good midday snack :cool:

Hope more are coming... :drool: I'm ready! :fight!:
EscherEnigma
07-16-05, 06:17 PM eh, the thing about Karnnath is that yeah, there are SOME sentient undead, but I don't think they have a whole lot of sentient undead. I don't have 5 nations so I don't know whats said, but I've been under the impression that their undead army was strictly mindless undead (though it has that whole 'collective spirit of Karnnath' thing). Sure, Kaius is sentient, but he's the only Karnnath one of note. The rest are EC, where they have mummies, vampires, and liches.
Mr. Wilson
07-16-05, 06:44 PM Regent Moranna Ir'Wynarn would be very displeased that you consider her "mindless". You know, being a Vampire and all. :D

Malevanor, the Mummy High Priest of Vol also might take offense to such label.

Quote from page 100 of 5 Nations:

"The average Karrn finds the intelligent undead to be at best creepy and at worst completely terrifying. Karrnathi soldiers have better tolerance, but few want to socialize with the undead."

By this, I would say intelligent undead aren't rare in Karrnath (don't Karrnathi Zombies and Skeletons have an Int of around 10-12? I don't have my ECS handy, but I think that's what I remember) but I'd agree they aren't common either.
EscherEnigma
07-17-05, 07:51 AM Regent Moranna Ir'Wynarn would be very displeased that you consider her "mindless".
What can I say? She's a woman. :P

Joking aside, like I said, I don't have 5 Nations yet, and I don't remember references to any other sentient undead in Karnnath aside from Kaius.

Also, after looking back at the ECS, the Karn Zombies and Skeletons are listed as having an 11 int. So, I guess they don't qualify as 'mindless'. I was basing my statement on Keith's answer from the Keith Baker Faq:

Q Originally Posted by Jabari How do Karrnathi undeads see their position? Can they remember their families? Do they get salary and try to live in the world? Or are they still just a mindless animated beings with skills that mimic intelligence?

A Tied to what I said above, I'm going to keep my answers brief. This is a subject that will be dealt with in detail as the Karrnath is examined.

The intelligent zombies and skeletons do not have the memories of their former lives. It's not a cheap form of raise dead. This is one reason why there's no advancement listed for them, and one of the main edges that the warforged have over the undead.

So how do they see their position? Well, it's something only the skeleton knows for sure. What the priests say is that the skeletons and zombies channel the combined essence of the Karrnathi dead. A skeleton does not represent a specific Karrnath soldier; instead, it is empowered by the soul of Karrnath itself. They say that this is why only the bodies of elite soldiers can be used; it is the residual patriotism of the soldier that allows it to serve as a vessel for the Karrnathi oversoul. But maybe they're lying, and the intelligent undead are secretly all loyal to Erandis d'Vol, and at some point there will be a massive undead uprising. Wouldn't that be fun?

Still, as far as can be told, the undead have no interest beyond defending Karrnath. They have no memories of their former lives, which is why they all have the same skills. They don't get a salary and at least claim to fight purely for love of Karrnath.

How does normal Karrnath people view undeads? A wife whose husband is now serving an eternity? Does Karrnaths believe that undeads soul is still in Dolurrh or do they view undeads are slaved souls?

The wife is going to have a hard time picking her husband out of a crowd of skeletons. It would be easier with the zombie, I suppose. But it's not her husband anymore, and she knows that. The undead are vessels for the oversoul of Karrnath. Some priests say that when the body is animated, the soul is drawn out from Dolurrh to join this oversoul, much like the followers of the Silver Flame believe that their noble warriors join the Flame; so it's not full rebirth, but you're spared Dolurrh and serving a good cause. With that said, while most Karrns accept the idea of undead, few actually enjoy spending time with them; they are still creepy!

Do they see them often in the streets of their towns and borderlines?

Mainly borders, though some are used in major cities to suppliment the watch. But even Kaius can't be sure if he can trust them, so he's careful about bringing them too far into the country.

Does Karrnath use undeads exclusively for war, how about manual labour?

It's something that's being explored now that the war has come to an end, and non-sentient undead are used for simple tasks. However, the sentient undead take offense at it, even the skeletons and zombies. They are forged from the bodies of warriors, they returned to FIGHT for Karrnath -- not to shovel manure or plow fields. It's not in their nature. This is a source of some concern.

Who actually raises them as Karrnath undeads? Since magewrights can get animate dead but I'd suppose there is something special in raising intelligent undeads.

The Ministry of the Dead provides undead for the Crown, and it is largely magewrights and wizards. Creating intelligent undead does require a special ritual and is generally only something priests of the Blood of Vol can do. This has caused some issues since the crown has officially broken ties with the Blood of Vol; however, Kaius trusts some priests more than others.

I should warn you that you'll probably see some of this material repeated in a dragonshard at some point.

so... I was thinking that while they aren't mindless undead, they certainly aren't the guy they were before much like most forms of sentient undead. And since the individual isn't prolonging their life really (as they're being assimilated into the collective Karn-mind) that the Marut's wouldn't care. However, if is a significant amount of sentient undead (aside from the raised skellies and zombies) in Karn, then the Marut's certainly would have an interest. Just how much undead does 5 Nations say they have?
Mr. Wilson
07-17-05, 01:48 PM The big hush hush is that the Minister of the Dead Vedim Ir'Omik is working on "shock" troops including wights and Vampire Spawn behind Kaius's back.

The three above are the "named" Undead. There's also a Bone Knight PrC, which is a living person who controls the undead in a variant form of the Paladin. They're there, but it is not overwhelming.
KP91
07-18-05, 03:13 PM eh, the thing about Karnnath is that yeah, there are SOME sentient undead, but I don't think they have a whole lot of sentient undead. I don't have 5 nations so I don't know whats said, but I've been under the impression that their undead army was strictly mindless undead (though it has that whole 'collective spirit of Karnnath' thing). Sure, Kaius is sentient, but he's the only Karnnath one of note. The rest are EC, where they have mummies, vampires, and liches.
Actually, you are wrong again. Most Undead in Karrnath are Karrnathi Zombies and Skeletons in the back of the ECS, who are sentient.
EscherEnigma
07-19-05, 01:26 AM already noted. :P
I was wrong.
But I still don't think that these Marut's would target Karnnath for its undead army, for reasons stated when I admitted I was wrong (previous post).
darkthought
07-19-05, 02:14 PM Perhaps when Dolurrh become coterminous Maruts DO leave the plain and go after powerful undead. Perhaps 1 Marut per powerful (10 or more HD) intellegent undead. They're tasked to return the soul to Dolurrh, because the souls are deemed unworthy of extended life. Defeating the Marut proves that the soul is worthy of extended time, and so they leave that particular undead alone. Vol has fought off her own Marut, and proudly displays the head in her personal chambers.

Vol's activities tend to get the marut's attention however, and the next time Dolurrh becomes coterminous, a few who have defeated their own maruts will have to fight them again. Fortunately Vol's fortress is very well hidden, and few but her most faithful know it's location.

Not to mention I think that any marut walking into Vol's fortress will be annilated by the hordes of undead she has at her disposal.

That reminds me to make another post on my Blood of Vol (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=398903) thread...

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KP91 07-13-05, 08:24 PM	Maruts are Inevitables that basicly hunt undead (or anyone else who unaturally extends their life). I don't think I have to ask for you to realize this doesn't add up in Eberron. Lots of Liches and stuff. Plus what about the Undying Court. A player brought this up because he is playing a monk that worships the ultimate Law, the Inevitables. I realize it wouldn't happen too often, probably mostly when the Davani is Conterminious, but you'd think there would be fewer liches in Eberron and no Undying Court with the exception of the stronger Acendant Councilor.
MT-296 "Dagger" 07-13-05, 08:29 PM	Your Kidding right? Aerenal Elves are very Very Very protective of there Deathless. and I think there are quite a few of the Deathless. An Inevitible would stand no chance.
ydirbut 07-13-05, 09:10 PM	Irrelevant. Inievitables are not afraid to die. I had the exact same thought a couple weeks ago. There's a thread on it a couple pages back. That could be the reason the Deathless don't commonly leave Aerenal though.
stone_dog 07-13-05, 09:50 PM	Maruts hang in Dolurrh, not Daanvi. Just saying. In Eberron they might well be focused on keeping souls in Dolurrh and not so much with venturing out to make sure people go there. Perhaps they are in a conflict with Nalfeshees who share the plane of death with them that takes up most of their time. Maybe there just aren't enough of them wandering about to be a going concern. As far as the deathless go, it just may be that they don't fall under the marut definition of unnatural. Reading the description of the Deathless Type on ECS 275 I think the setting agrees with me. It describes the undead as a mockery of life and a violation of the natural order of life and death, while the deathless are describes as having actually died, but have returned to a kind of spiritual life. Looking at that, I don't think that a marut would care about such a creature.
Raster 07-14-05, 11:31 AM	...We need a Manual of the Planes: Eberron Style...
ydirbut 07-14-05, 01:36 PM	We do
The Fireballed Mage 07-14-05, 02:38 PM	Or you can just assume that the Deathless and some liches/vampires/etc, have a place in the grand scheme that isn't obvious to you/me/PCs. Maybe there are only a limited number of Inevitables, and quite frankly, they've got a huge backlog of cases to deal with before they can get to any on the (Eberron) Prime Plane. Maybe the BoV, Undying Court, and others play a role in the Phophecy, and as such are off limits to random Inevitable attack. Maybe the Inevitables as not a free willed as thought, and only go after targets once instructed to by their (mysterious) superiors. Or, maybe, just maybe, people are looking too deep into certain aspects of D&D, when the answer probably is, "Whatever makes a good story." After all, who needs adventurers to save them if every time a vampire is spawned some clockwork thing drops in from out of plane to bash it out of existance?
Stainawarjar 07-14-05, 07:03 PM	...We need a Manual of the Planes: Eberron Style... Yes. we do. Another suggestion: is it not possible the undying court is hiding their existence from them somehow? It's not like inevitables are allknowing. If the masters of the maruts were to learn of the existence of the court, I imagine they'd send a single marut first. Then another. then 2, then 3, then 5, 8, 13, 21, 34... and so on. Remember they're on an infinite plane, so they're theoretically infinite in number. Would make for a great adventure. How do we stop these soon to be overwhelming attacks upon our "gods"?
Titanic Ego 07-14-05, 11:19 PM	I very much doubt that the maruts are infinite in number. The Quori, angels, demons, devils, archons, etc all exist in finite numbers (in fact, a fixed finite number, since the death of one causes the spawning of another.) Of course, they can keep attacking as new ones spawn, but there will be a lag time for the replacement to form and enter battle. I don't see maruts as being opposed to all undeath/resurrection/immortality. Instead, they have specific laws governing such infractions, a price to be paid for each offense. Perhaps liches and vampires are allowed to exist for a certain amount of time before being attacked. If they defeat the maruts, they are allowed to exist for another period. Or perhaps they intervene to prevent liches and vampires from disrupting the order of Eberron, e.g. if Vol started converting hundreds of villagers into vampire spawn or openly attacking Karnnath they would take her out but otherwise allow her to go unmolested.
EscherEnigma 07-15-05, 03:12 AM	With the general idea that there shouldn't be powerful people willing to bail the PCs out of trouble, and some extra planar creature with a chip on its shoulder about undead being one such thing if the PCs have a nasty run-in with the Blood of Vol, I'd say that they are both finite and small in numbers, and have most of their time swallowed with their work on Dolurrh (or wherever they are). There may be one or two wandering the material plane trying to work against undeath, but they simply don't have the numbers to commit to a war on undeath and still maintain their plane. If undead start to get TOO much power, and really starts to screw with things, they might try to interfere, but at that point I'd say there isn't much they can do. With that said, I don't actually have the Planar Handbook, so I don't know how individually powerful these guys are. But it DOES seem strange that there could be a group of powerful outsiders out there set specifically to hunt undead, and yet have them so wide spread in most settings.
Zedium 07-15-05, 05:22 AM	Well, easy answer probably why the Maruts aren't hunting down all undead in Eberron en masse: They can't reach it unless the plane is coterminous. This means they have to either come through manifest zones or when the plane is near. And maybe they are indeed only concerned with keeping people inside the plane, instead of hunting down every zombie out there.
talion09 07-15-05, 05:36 AM	... With that said, I don't actually have the Planar Handbook, so I don't know how individually powerful these guys are. But it DOES seem strange that there could be a group of powerful outsiders out there set specifically to hunt undead, and yet have them so wide spread in most settings. Maruts are listed under the heading of Inevitables in the Monster Manual 3.5, so they should also be in the SRD as well.
Titanic Ego 07-15-05, 09:01 AM	Maruts are listed under the heading of Inevitables in the Monster Manual 3.5, so they should also be in the SRD as well. They are indeed: "Any who use unnatural means to extend their life span could be targeted by a marut. Those who take extraordinary measures to cheat death in some other way might be labeled transgressors as well. Those who use magic to reverse death aren’t worthy of a marut’s attention unless they do so repeatedly or on a massive scale."
Stainawarjar 07-15-05, 10:50 AM	I very much doubt that the maruts are infinite in number. The Quori, angels, demons, devils, archons, etc all exist in finite numbers (in fact, a fixed finite number, since the death of one causes the spawning of another.) That the death of one causes the spawning of another does not necessarily mean they're finite in number. If outsiders are finite in number, what's the rest of these infinite size planes filled with? they're not planets in an infinite void (and an infinite void does not make an infinite plane, because it makes no sense to have an infinite amount of nothing).
Titanic Ego 07-15-05, 11:13 AM	That the death of one causes the spawning of another does not necessarily mean they're finite in number. If outsiders are finite in number, what's the rest of these infinite size planes filled with? they're not planets in an infinite void (and an infinite void does not make an infinite plane, because it makes no sense to have an infinite amount of nothing). Keith has specifically stated that the rakshasa, Quori, archons, etc are finite in number. Perhaps maruts are different as constructs (if they are actually created by someone rather than forming from Dolurrh itself) but all of the major outsider races have a fixed and finite population. I don't think that we have any reason to believe that the 13 planes are infinite: Keith has said that Dal Quor, for instance, is larger than Eberron (tens of thousands of miles across) but not endless.
Stainawarjar 07-15-05, 12:49 PM	Keith has specifically stated that the rakshasa, Quori, archons, etc are finite in number. Perhaps maruts are different as constructs (if they are actually created by someone rather than forming from Dolurrh itself) but all of the major outsider races have a fixed and finite population. I don't think that we have any reason to believe that the 13 planes are infinite: Keith has said that Dal Quor, for instance, is larger than Eberron (tens of thousands of miles across) but not endless. I aplolgize for my lack of knowledge, I shall now leave and administer an apropriate punishment from the Liber Excruciatus.
Titanic Ego 07-15-05, 01:06 PM	I aplolgize for my lack of knowledge, I shall now leave and administer an apropriate punishment from the Liber Excruciatus. Don't worry about it... Several zelekhuts will be arriving shortly anyway ;)
EscherEnigma 07-16-05, 12:20 AM	whoops, well, thats what I get for assumign things and sticking my foot in my mouth. Didn't remember Inevitables in the MM 3.5. But there it is. And, upon looking at these guys, and seeing their CR 15, I think its a good idea to find a way to limit them in some way. Becuase they certainly WOULD be after the Aerenei, Vol, and Karnnath. Well, maybe not Karnath. From reading their entry it sounds like their main targets are sentient undead. Anyway, for my reasons stated above, I'd say limit them. That idea with the 'can only travel to Eberron when the plane is coterminous' was good, but sadly they get Plane Shift 1/week. So that good idea doesn't float. How sad. If you take that ability away, though, they become much more manageable.
Stainawarjar 07-16-05, 06:38 AM	Limit them? There are something like half a a million deathless amongst the Aereni... Even if they're CR 15 it would take a lot of them! No sentient undead in Karrnath? Then whaddaya kall :king: Kaius, mindless? :mad: And those Zelekhuts sure made a good midday snack :cool: Hope more are coming... :drool: I'm ready! :fight!:
EscherEnigma 07-16-05, 06:17 PM	eh, the thing about Karnnath is that yeah, there are SOME sentient undead, but I don't think they have a whole lot of sentient undead. I don't have 5 nations so I don't know whats said, but I've been under the impression that their undead army was strictly mindless undead (though it has that whole 'collective spirit of Karnnath' thing). Sure, Kaius is sentient, but he's the only Karnnath one of note. The rest are EC, where they have mummies, vampires, and liches.
Mr. Wilson 07-16-05, 06:44 PM	Regent Moranna Ir'Wynarn would be very displeased that you consider her "mindless". You know, being a Vampire and all. :D Malevanor, the Mummy High Priest of Vol also might take offense to such label. Quote from page 100 of 5 Nations: "The average Karrn finds the intelligent undead to be at best creepy and at worst completely terrifying. Karrnathi soldiers have better tolerance, but few want to socialize with the undead." By this, I would say intelligent undead aren't rare in Karrnath (don't Karrnathi Zombies and Skeletons have an Int of around 10-12? I don't have my ECS handy, but I think that's what I remember) but I'd agree they aren't common either.
EscherEnigma 07-17-05, 07:51 AM	Regent Moranna Ir'Wynarn would be very displeased that you consider her "mindless". What can I say? She's a woman. :P Joking aside, like I said, I don't have 5 Nations yet, and I don't remember references to any other sentient undead in Karnnath aside from Kaius. Also, after looking back at the ECS, the Karn Zombies and Skeletons are listed as having an 11 int. So, I guess they don't qualify as 'mindless'. I was basing my statement on Keith's answer from the Keith Baker Faq: Q Originally Posted by Jabari How do Karrnathi undeads see their position? Can they remember their families? Do they get salary and try to live in the world? Or are they still just a mindless animated beings with skills that mimic intelligence? A Tied to what I said above, I'm going to keep my answers brief. This is a subject that will be dealt with in detail as the Karrnath is examined. The intelligent zombies and skeletons do not have the memories of their former lives. It's not a cheap form of raise dead. This is one reason why there's no advancement listed for them, and one of the main edges that the warforged have over the undead. So how do they see their position? Well, it's something only the skeleton knows for sure. What the priests say is that the skeletons and zombies channel the combined essence of the Karrnathi dead. A skeleton does not represent a specific Karrnath soldier; instead, it is empowered by the soul of Karrnath itself. They say that this is why only the bodies of elite soldiers can be used; it is the residual patriotism of the soldier that allows it to serve as a vessel for the Karrnathi oversoul. But maybe they're lying, and the intelligent undead are secretly all loyal to Erandis d'Vol, and at some point there will be a massive undead uprising. Wouldn't that be fun? Still, as far as can be told, the undead have no interest beyond defending Karrnath. They have no memories of their former lives, which is why they all have the same skills. They don't get a salary and at least claim to fight purely for love of Karrnath. How does normal Karrnath people view undeads? A wife whose husband is now serving an eternity? Does Karrnaths believe that undeads soul is still in Dolurrh or do they view undeads are slaved souls? The wife is going to have a hard time picking her husband out of a crowd of skeletons. It would be easier with the zombie, I suppose. But it's not her husband anymore, and she knows that. The undead are vessels for the oversoul of Karrnath. Some priests say that when the body is animated, the soul is drawn out from Dolurrh to join this oversoul, much like the followers of the Silver Flame believe that their noble warriors join the Flame; so it's not full rebirth, but you're spared Dolurrh and serving a good cause. With that said, while most Karrns accept the idea of undead, few actually enjoy spending time with them; they are still creepy! Do they see them often in the streets of their towns and borderlines? Mainly borders, though some are used in major cities to suppliment the watch. But even Kaius can't be sure if he can trust them, so he's careful about bringing them too far into the country. Does Karrnath use undeads exclusively for war, how about manual labour? It's something that's being explored now that the war has come to an end, and non-sentient undead are used for simple tasks. However, the sentient undead take offense at it, even the skeletons and zombies. They are forged from the bodies of warriors, they returned to FIGHT for Karrnath -- not to shovel manure or plow fields. It's not in their nature. This is a source of some concern. Who actually raises them as Karrnath undeads? Since magewrights can get animate dead but I'd suppose there is something special in raising intelligent undeads. The Ministry of the Dead provides undead for the Crown, and it is largely magewrights and wizards. Creating intelligent undead does require a special ritual and is generally only something priests of the Blood of Vol can do. This has caused some issues since the crown has officially broken ties with the Blood of Vol; however, Kaius trusts some priests more than others. I should warn you that you'll probably see some of this material repeated in a dragonshard at some point. so... I was thinking that while they aren't mindless undead, they certainly aren't the guy they were before much like most forms of sentient undead. And since the individual isn't prolonging their life really (as they're being assimilated into the collective Karn-mind) that the Marut's wouldn't care. However, if is a significant amount of sentient undead (aside from the raised skellies and zombies) in Karn, then the Marut's certainly would have an interest. Just how much undead does 5 Nations say they have?
Mr. Wilson 07-17-05, 01:48 PM	The big hush hush is that the Minister of the Dead Vedim Ir'Omik is working on "shock" troops including wights and Vampire Spawn behind Kaius's back. The three above are the "named" Undead. There's also a Bone Knight PrC, which is a living person who controls the undead in a variant form of the Paladin. They're there, but it is not overwhelming.
KP91 07-18-05, 03:13 PM	eh, the thing about Karnnath is that yeah, there are SOME sentient undead, but I don't think they have a whole lot of sentient undead. I don't have 5 nations so I don't know whats said, but I've been under the impression that their undead army was strictly mindless undead (though it has that whole 'collective spirit of Karnnath' thing). Sure, Kaius is sentient, but he's the only Karnnath one of note. The rest are EC, where they have mummies, vampires, and liches. Actually, you are wrong again. Most Undead in Karrnath are Karrnathi Zombies and Skeletons in the back of the ECS, who are sentient.
EscherEnigma 07-19-05, 01:26 AM	already noted. :P I was wrong. But I still don't think that these Marut's would target Karnnath for its undead army, for reasons stated when I admitted I was wrong (previous post).
darkthought 07-19-05, 02:14 PM	Perhaps when Dolurrh become coterminous Maruts DO leave the plain and go after powerful undead. Perhaps 1 Marut per powerful (10 or more HD) intellegent undead. They're tasked to return the soul to Dolurrh, because the souls are deemed unworthy of extended life. Defeating the Marut proves that the soul is worthy of extended time, and so they leave that particular undead alone. Vol has fought off her own Marut, and proudly displays the head in her personal chambers. Vol's activities tend to get the marut's attention however, and the next time Dolurrh becomes coterminous, a few who have defeated their own maruts will have to fight them again. Fortunately Vol's fortress is very well hidden, and few but her most faithful know it's location. Not to mention I think that any marut walking into Vol's fortress will be annilated by the hordes of undead she has at her disposal. That reminds me to make another post on my Blood of Vol (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=398903) thread...