Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Need_A_Life 06-13-07, 05:41 PM	EDIT: I've been asked to edit my post with a spoiler warning as Nundahl is convinced this is from the module Red Hand of Doom (what kind of silly title is that, anyway?) Last session, our party managed to wipe out a group of Hobgoblins, Words and a Minotaur and take their base of operations (a ruined castle) for our own. We all immediately agreed, that since this was the northern Darguun the fact that we had the Deed of Ownership would be enough to constitute "rightful ownership," and decided that we would restore the castle soon enough. However, we also found a (slightly humerous) map of an upcoming invasion... the route of which starts to the north of our new-found keep, going directly to the keep (with a note that reinforcements will join them there, probably the people we killed), past a bridge guarded by a Hydra [we bypassed it on purpose to hinder them when they come through] and down to a small backwards town where the militia is already spread too thin. Our group consists of a TN Changeling Rogue4, NG(?) Gnome Artificer4, TN(?) Elan Soulknife4, CG Warforged Barbarian2/Ranger2, LE Changeling Warlock4, and a NG d'Jorasco Halfling Cleric4. We have 5 "ranged specialists" and one melee specialist, though 4 of the ranged specialist can go into melee if they have to. Now, how do we best take on this army (of an unknown size), not knowing when the invasion will begin (though knowing the battleplan from thereon). --- P.S. Our DM is relatively new, so he's sticking to modules. If you know the module this is from, please DO NOT spoil it. Thank you in advance
Shady314 06-13-07, 05:56 PM	Wait you know the route they're taking? And this army is expecting reinforcements and have no idea they aren't coming... You can't think of how to take them on? Traps, ambushes and pretend to be the reinforcements. At least the warforged and changelings should be able to pull that disguise off. Is bypassing the hydra going to hinder the evil invaders? Aren't they aware of it? Perhaps sabotaging the bridge so it collapses would be better? Definitely inform the militia so they'll be prepared. In a worst case scenario you can evacuate the town at least. That'd be kind of funny. To see the look on their faces when they charge into town and find it empty of food and goods etc.
OctaviusIII 06-14-07, 02:04 AM	Agreed: traps, sniping, ambushing, and chaos-sowing with the changeling. Make the buggers think you're hitting their rear, then hit the front. In the melee, the changling starts killing too, or else starts yelling out in the voice of the commander to fall back, or something, and THEN starts killing. Oh, the joys to be had.
Nived 06-14-07, 07:43 AM	I'm a fan of Heroes of Battle's "Think big, play small" design philosophy. Wherein, in war based campaigns you don't need rules for mass combat and you don't even really need to keep track of every unit of the battlefield. The heroes are the heroes, and the spotlight is on them. In a similar manner to war movies where we know there is a major battle going on but the story we're watching follows a particular unit of soldiers so goes war campaigns. In this model, the battle is the backdrop of the story, describe it, show the PCs the scale of it, but ultimately for them, run encounters within the context of the battle. Set up certain tactical objectives, "hold the line" "take this point", "stop this unit" etc, and as goes your heroes story so goes the battle. Have a predetermined number of objectives that they must 'win' for the battle to be won. In an easy battle maybe they just need to 'win' two tactical objectives to turn the tide of battle, in a difficult one maybe 6. Think big, play small.
Need_A_Life 06-14-07, 11:04 AM	Wait you know the route they're taking? And this army is expecting reinforcements and have no idea they aren't coming...I forgot to say that they likely don't know that the reinforcements aren't coming, though one of the hobgoblins managed to escape (using a fly spell). Traps, ambushes and pretend to be the reinforcements.Yea, guerilla tactics will help to keep us alive, but if the army is large enough, we'll only be bee-stings and they'll just shrug and move on. At least the warforged and changelings should be able to pull that disguise off.The changelings, sure. But the warforged? How is he supposed to pass for a hobgoblin OR a minotaur? Is bypassing the hydra going to hinder the evil invaders? Aren't they aware of it?Well, the hydra won't care about their alignment and seeing as how their route crosses the bridge the hydra uses as a "hunting ground", it'll probably kill a dozen or so (We bypassed it the first time by casting Calm Emotions and then running, the second time we just ran like h**l before it could kill any one of us :embarrass ) Perhaps sabotaging the bridge so it collapses would be better?Great idea! Definitely inform the militia so they'll be prepared.Our last session ended with us deciding who'd be briefing the militia (after we'd just debriefed the mayor). In a worst case scenario you can evacuate the town at least. That'd be kind of funny. To see the look on their faces when they charge into town and find it empty of food and goods etc. However, as well as it as been used in Russia, it'd be pointless to burn the fields and buildings here, as the army has already prepared to sweep in through the closest human villages/cities. Sure, people can run for a while, but it'd be months of constant running before there was any certainty of safety. Make the buggers think you're hitting their rear, then hit the front.Because our six-man army is going to be so intimidating, that they'll flee? In the melee, the changling starts killing too, or else starts yelling out in the voice of the commander to fall back, or something, and THEN starts killing.Taking out one or two opponents, before the duplicity is discovered and he experiences a world of hurt? Think big, play small. I don't know if we'll be running it that way, because I'm NOT the DM. If I were, I'd be spending time brushing up on siege combat and would've offered the group a dozen warrior1 from the local militia to help survive the day. Apart from that, I'd trust the players to seek help from the boards (hopefully discovering paths of defense I'd neglected to account for, or realizing a good withdrawal tactic).
OctaviusIII 06-14-07, 05:03 PM	The reason for the changeling to do the killing is to sow more chaos. Ah well, I'm thinking too big. If it were a strategy game, and I only had six units, I'd probably do something like this: keep my men back beyond the bridge and hiding in the trees, hopefully with the militia also waiting in ambush. Use the hydra to kill the middle and sow chaos, and the collapsing bridge to kill a goodly chunk of their middle. Once the hydra's gone, use the ranged types to do damage while the barbarian stands guard or leads the militia charge. The reason I backed off from the traps in this is because they may retreat or use a different route if they think their plans have been compromised, especially upon finding their reinforcements gone.
Nundahl 06-14-07, 05:19 PM	EEP! This is Red Hand of Doom! I wasn't sure until I re-read the post, but it definately is! No offense as I'm sure you didn't know you were dropping any bombs, but would you mind editing your post with a RHOD Spoiler warning?
eamon 06-28-07, 07:21 AM	Frankly, I think you need to know more before you can really decide what to do. You could also try the political angle, though I'm not sure how much power Rhukaan Draal can project how quickly in northern Darguun, nor how likely they'll help you... So I say, analyze what you've got as good as can be and try to find more info.
CannibalSmith 06-28-07, 10:38 AM	1. Gather intelligence. 2. Assassinate their leadership. One knife at night is worth a thousand swords at dawn. 3. Take the initiative. Force them to fight on your terms. 4. Poison their water supply. Disease their food. Sun Tzu's Art of War (http://suntzusaid.com/artofwar.pdf) is a highly recommended reading. Also, see Thirty-Six Strategies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty-Six_Strategies).
Nundahl 06-28-07, 02:21 PM	The irony is that the RHOD game I was playing in got to right about here before it fell apart. If you aren't playing RHOD I'll be shocked though, but it wouldn't be the craziest thing. --EotLQ spoilers below-- I just finished a campaign arc in the game I run that took the PC's to Haka'torvhak, involved Vol, a artifact of great power from the war between Demons and Dragons, and used Lhazaar and Adderport a great deal as travel points. The party was sent by a polymorphed dragon in disguise. We finished the arc I had written before EotLQ was on store shelves. I now own it and nearly did a back-flip when I started reading. I mean I even had a magically "taxidermy" based undead encounter ... it wasn't a giant squid but it WAS in fact a giant undead animal. So, if this adventure described above is not RHOD, I will believe you.
Need_A_Life 06-28-07, 05:48 PM	I am pretty sure it's RHOD... last session I saw the module cover, and realized every goblin we'd fought had been described as having a red hand on their armour (we'd made jokes about the Four-fingered hand of Mordor). 1. Gather intelligence.Yeah, it's obvious but then again it has to be said. 2. Assassinate their leadership. One knife at night is worth a thousand swords at dawn.No offense, but are you mad? How can we locate the leaders in a freakin' massive horde? 3. Take the initiative. Force them to fight on your terms.Oh, right. Let's set up a roadblock, so they have to change their plans... it's not like anything our group can do (even with our newly arrived player) would take them moments to restore. At best, we can delay them enough to mount a proper defense or evacuate. I'm leaning towards the last... 4. Poison their water supply. Disease their food. We're planning on going the trusty ol' russian way... burn our towns and throw dead lifestock in the river/well and get the **** out of there, at least until we reach the only decently defended town in the area (B... something). At least, that'll force them to use supply lines from further back, which means they are more susceptible to sabotage. Sun Tzu's Art of War is a highly recommended reading. Also, see Thirty-Six Strategies.Sun Tzu was a brilliant military genius, and I loved his work back when I got my hands on Art of War... Unfortunately, I believe his only tactic with a half-dozen men and an unknown number of civilians defending against what one of our group estimated to be 10k hobgoblins, a few giants and at least one MORE dragon (we took one down!) would be called "The Art of Running Faster than The Slowest Member of the Group" :P
Wymarc 06-29-07, 01:44 AM	Because our six-man army is going to be so intimidating, that they'll flee? conceal your numbers. ranged attacks from all sides, aoe magic, alchamist's fire, illusion and summoning magic... Maybe try and make crossbows rigged to fire one shot at a determined time. Might try assassinating the general and having the changling impersonate him, giving false orders, splitting up army. attack at night. Also, your in a country known for it's mercenaries
CannibalSmith 06-29-07, 04:52 AM	No offense, but are you mad? How did you know? :D How can we locate the leaders in a freakin' massive horde? Uh, the other dragon? It's obvious - that's the only position a dragon would accept in an army. 10k hobgoblins 10k!? Even Breland would have hard time fighting that! At your level, there is nothing you can do.
Shady314 06-29-07, 06:18 AM	I forgot to say that they likely don't know that the reinforcements aren't coming, though one of the hobgoblins managed to escape (using a fly spell). Ah well that changes things. Yea, guerilla tactics will help to keep us alive, but if the army is large enough, we'll only be bee-stings and they'll just shrug and move on. Been stung by a bee? It hurts. :) The point is not to kill so many enemies they retreat guerilla tactics are about breaking morale. Goblin morale is just as important if not more so than human morale. I'm going to assume this evil horde is motivated more by plunder and slaughter than any noble beliefs they are willing to die for. That means they're less likely to put up with a ton of crap than a more motivated professional army. The changelings, sure. But the warforged? How is he supposed to pass for a hobgoblin OR a minotaur? He can easily pass as a mercenary they've recently picked up. The changelings looking like hobgoblins would explain they were attacked and lost most of their men and barely survived but managed to slay all their attackers. I wasn't clear on how much information they had on these reinforcements. So yeah if they know exactly who's coming impersonation is a bad idea. Well, the hydra won't care about their alignment and seeing as how their route crosses the bridge the hydra uses as a "hunting ground", it'll probably kill a dozen or so (We bypassed it the first time by casting Calm Emotions and then running, the second time we just ran like h**l before it could kill any one of us :embarrass ) Tell us more about this bridge then. Destroying the bridge is more helpful than leaving the Hydra. Ideally though you could do both. Actually ideally you'd want to weaken the bridges support so it'd collapse as the army is crossing and a small amount have already made it to the other side. Splitting their forces is good. Our last session ended with us deciding who'd be briefing the militia (after we'd just debriefed the mayor). However, as well as it as been used in Russia, it'd be pointless to burn the fields and buildings here, as the army has already prepared to sweep in through the closest human villages/cities. Sure, people can run for a while, but it'd be months of constant running before there was any certainty of safety. Actually this is exactly why it'd be useful. Again it's a matter of morale. You've got a big anxious army looking forward to sweeping through a small town and causing some bloodshed and looting only to find nothing at all but diseased food and such. It's demoralizing. Anyways I wouldn't make it obvious. Make it look like the town has just recently fled with nothing but the clothes on their back. Oh look they left the good wine. That's for the officers you know. Oh it's poisoned erk! The well is diseased and full of blood and urine. There goes any chance for a quick resupply. Boiling water is time spent not hunting you down. And when a big circle of fire springs up around the town that'll cause some panic. Of course we are assuming you can get this town to evacuate. I don't know if that's likely but let's hope it is. This town is actually kind of confusing. It's in Daargun? So the town is made up of goblins yes? No humans in their right mind are living in Daargun. How far out in the boondocks is this place it'd take months to cross a border into one of the 5N? Anyways the thing about big hordes is they actually move very slowly. You could keep a small town well ahead of them. The problem will be staying ahead of outriders/scouts. Which is what large hordes use to maneuver and plan their routes. These small teams should be within the ability of your PCs to eliminate though which is a serious blow to the horde and keeps your townies safe and ahead of the army. Because our six-man army is going to be so intimidating, that they'll flee? I don't think anyone realized you were facing a horde. I haven't played RoHD and from your original post it sounded like a much smaller force. Taking out one or two opponents, before the duplicity is discovered and he experiences a world of hurt? Infiltration is fraught with peril but you can do damage and escape undetected. I don't know if we'll be running it that way, because I'm NOT the DM. If I were, I'd be spending time brushing up on siege combat and would've offered the group a dozen warrior1 from the local militia to help survive the day. Apart from that, I'd trust the players to seek help from the boards (hopefully discovering paths of defense I'd neglected to account for, or realizing a good withdrawal tactic). Here's what I'd LIKE to do if I were a PC without perfect knowledge of the invading army. I don't know what sort of resources or arcane/divine ability you've got so some of this you may be able to use and some not. Scout the army. It's an absolute necessity you know what you're dealing with. Scrying would be good once you've located it's position. Figuring out who the leaders are is easy. Who has the best and biggest tents? Who is yelling orders? Who is the best equipped? Who are many others saluting? Figure out which of these are the biggest badasses. Take every opportunity to strike at them specifically. Distract the hydra while we weaken the bridge supports. Get the townies to damage the road or trail and set up pits and other obstacles around it. Yes this merely slows them down but you have to think of it from the invading armies perspective. |You're not in an Order of the Stick strip. :) Throwing infinite goblins to their deaths may work for Xykon but if your DM cares about realism an army can't just sacrifice a bunch of goblins without screwing their morale. They don't know these obstacles aren't leading up to something big. Someone's hindering their plans and they don't know who yet. They have to take it slow and cautiously because for all they know the next obstacle is going to be where an opposing army ambushes them. That's for the men/militia. Women and children should be packing the bare essentials and trapping the town then leaving for you to catch up with a little later. The old and sick will have to be left to die. Sad but I play chaotic neutral PCs. Of course they might spill the beans so a quick death from poison is best. Lie in wait for the armies scouts and outriders who will need to cross the bridge. Eliminate every last one of them. If they're well ahead of the horde tear up the bodies, toss them in the water and now it looks like the hydra got them. Wait for the army to cross the bridge. Hope the bridge was weakened just the right amount to let a few gobbos across before it collapses hopefully taking out more gobbos crossing it at the moment. (I'm assuming this is a big serious bridge over a real river not some little wooden arch over a stream) Get some weather magic going that causes some serious rainfall a little ways upstream that quickly and seriously floods the riverbanks washing the bridge away, killing more gobbos and hopefully expanding the area the hydra can now attack. This should also make it easier for the Hydra as well, as the gobbos are retreating from the flooding and in poor terrain for them to move in. Then you move in under some sort of cover and obliterate the few gobbos that crossed the bridge. Obscuring Mist or whatever you can cook up. Don't let them see that the force they're facing is just a few intrepid PCs. Let them think it's much much worse. Maybe if you've got the ability you can throw out an obscuring mist coupled with some smokebombs then cast a few extended summon spells, lob some fieballs whatever you've got and haul ass. Do everything you can to confuse the enemy. The changelings should always look like hobgoblins or something which should make the horde wonder who the hell is fighting them and why. Use the disguise skill to make the other PCs look inhuman. Maybe undead. 6 men are a lot more terrifying if you don't KNOW they're 6 men and think they could be 60 elite badasses. Or a monstrous opposing force. Or a Valenar warband. Whatever. Speaking of which if you have any allies whatsoever that could provide any support whatsoever now is the time to call them in. Any chance you could contact a Valenar warband and let them know there's some damn good sport to be had up here? Poison your ranged weapons with the most virulent stuff you've got. Hit a few different gobbos and withdraw. A slow painful death everyone gets to see is better than a quick one. Just whittle away at that morale till you can get a real opposing force organized. The river is really your best bet to do any real damage to the army. If the river is bad ass enough having no bridge is a serious hindrance. And will give the townies a hell of a head start. You've got to locate the remaining dragon. Losing that would be a serious blow to morale. "Like holy crap they got the dragon too! We're screwed. What the hell are we fighting?" The worst thing is getting into a siege unless you can round up some reinforcements.
Need_A_Life 06-30-07, 12:28 PM	Whew! Thanks for all the ideas. Now, for the update: First, thanks to a TPK the group is now: Warforged Warblade/Swordsage Warforged Barbarian/Fighter Human Dragon Shaman/Marshal/Paladin Elven Swashbuckler Dwarf Wizard Human Cleric (perhaps the Changeling rogue, but his player is on holiday, so...) We decided to go with the "evacuate-town-and-burn-it-and-make-sure-every-other-town-nearby-does-the-same-while-all-moving-towards-the-Big-Town" and sent a messenger to Breland (the cities are on the border of Darguun and Breland, apparently), telling them about the situation. We managed to collapse the bridge (no hydra, though) shortly after scouting their forces, but we know now for a fact we're facing a horde of hobgoblins (10k was our estimate). Hearing that the army had set up roadblocks blocking the way into an apparently empty area made us curious, so we sailed up-river and "visited" one of these, gaining information about their standing orders as well as a "green monster" that apparently had attacked them, which an officer had tried to shush down (which is unusual behaviour, our captive assured us). Hoping this monster might help shed some light on things, we decided to go after it, reasoning that following in the footsteps of the army would make little sense (we've managed to maneuver our way to the other side of the army). Our new party has a kill list (one session) including: 1x Large Green Dragon, 15x Hobgoblins, 2x Ogres. Not enough to eliminate the army, granted, but we're at least causing morale issues (a dead dragon lying in plain sight on the bridge you're supposed to cross, which then collapses before your very eyes will do that). Also, I was talking about this to my former DM, who kept reminding me how much like OotS this was. "...an army of hobgoblins..." "Order of the Stick!" "No... anyway, they've got at least one dragon left" "Order of the Stick! Do they have a Lich?" "No... and we have to protect this town" "Azure City!" "More of a village, actually..." "Aww..." "...which we have decided to evacuate to this larger city" "Azure City!"
Gerry 07-01-07, 11:19 PM	Oh, you're in RHoD all right! Whew! Thanks for all the ideas. Now, for the update: First, thanks to a TPK Where did it happen? We managed to collapse the bridge ... Our new party has a kill list (one session) including: 1x Large Green Dragon, 15x Hobgoblins, 2x Ogres. Not enough to eliminate the army, granted, but we're at least causing morale issues (a dead dragon lying in plain sight on the bridge you're supposed to cross, which then collapses before your very eyes will do that). Nice work! Also, I was talking about this to my former DM, who kept reminding me how much like OotS this was. "...an army of hobgoblins..." "Order of the Stick!" "No... anyway, they've got at least one dragon left" "Order of the Stick! Do they have a Lich?" "No... and we have to protect this town" "Azure City!" "More of a village, actually..." "Aww..." "...which we have decided to evacuate to this larger city" "Azure City!" I wish I knew how to add the "laughing outrageously" smiley. I've been emailing the OOTS links to my PCs every few days. The similarity is hilarious. I made sure the evoker saw V take on the horde.... Now for real advice. Think "Guns of Navarone", "Force 10 from Navarone", "Green Berets", and um, "Rambo", strike that!, "Die Hard". A few people can make a heck of difference, if they're in the right place at the right time. Anakin isn't in the front lines with the Gungans, he's taking out the Droid Control ship, to use another bad example. So the Hero(s) doesn't HAVE to be in the front lines, not all the time anyway. If you want to risk a few spoilers, try looking at PC Advice ( http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=12684331#post12684331) in the Index of RHoD Threads (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=855450). Most of it is character builds, but there are other requests for advice on "now what?" Good luck, Gerry
Need_A_Life 07-05-07, 11:10 AM	Well, actually after last session, I don't think this thread retains much relevancy. We were exploring a flooded city (cowardly as we are, we bypassed the army after leaving instructions for the city) where we found a hobgoblin trying to forcibly recruit new units. Well, our combat monster of a warforged barbarian failed his will save against an enchantment spell, and the paladin and cleric discussed how they could bring him down when my character entered the room, hearing how they planned on disabling the person who had saved my characters life only minutes earlier. Needless to say, my character demanded an explanation to which the paladin replied: "Just keep him occupied" and ran outside, sword drawn. Now the paladin is dead, the cleric (whose holy symbol I'd taken from him the moment I heard of their traitorous plan) has been beaten into submission by the barbarian, our swashbuckler is just cooling it, thanks to a suggestion and my character is unwittingly playing along to the hobgoblins schemes. I highly suspect that the other players as well as the DM feel that they've been thrown a curveball, I know I felt like that. ((and there's the humiliation of being defeated by a hobgoblin bard/mindbender... [an underpowered race with an underpowered base class, going into a prestige class largely considered useless])) Where did it happen? Green dragon beaten within an inch of its life flies away to heal up at a session where 2 players are absent means PAIN! Also, our kill list now features an extra 6 ogres and an ettin. :D