Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Seth of the First Brigade 06-13-06, 11:00 PM	Ok, I am reopening this thread because the last one had to be closed due to some less than civil discussion between individuals posting to the thread. I am CERTAIN we will not experience the same problem this time around. I will make it a point to try and import as much of the old thread as possible, seeing as there was some really great stuff there in regards to Mastering the Art of DM'ing (Eberron). Please let the discussion continue, this time however let us make every effort to be both civil and mature. Please follow the same format as before which is listed below. I look forward seeing new and innovative ideas to help every DM enhance their DM'ing abilities and in turn enhance their PC's campaign experience. Here is a link to the old thread so that everyone can see the original ideas presented. Mastering the Art of DM'ing (Eberron) The Original Thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=639675) and also the the things that led to it being closed. ENJOY!!! I am interested in hearing other DM's opinions on Mastering the Art of Dm'ing. I know this is a bit general so I will give some bullet points of interest. 1. Painting a fantastic and wondrous picture of the world and the scenery. (AKA: Storytelling) enough to enthrall the players yet keep them wanting more. Helping them to realize that Eberron is a living, breathing world that they can do just about anything in. In addition to this I would like to motivate them to research things and dig deep into the mysteries, the secret things, and the histories that the world has to offer. 2. Making the major NPC's come alive, and endearing the PC's to them. Or in the case that their enemy's the opposite. 3. The best way to implement recurring Villains as well as Allies, without it becoming cheesy. 4. Passively motivating the players in the direction you want them to go. 5. Anything else that other DM's might find pertinent. I look forward to your input, Seth PS: Any advice from Keith Baker would be most welcomed. PPS: I don’t want anyone to feel the need to try and answer all of these questions. Only answer the ones that you want. However if you have opinions about each feel free to answer them.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-13-06, 11:47 PM	Heres the first import... Endless_Helix 05-18-06 05:49 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmmm... Well, I'm pretty new at this whole "DMing" thing (I really only started about three years ago) but I'll give it a shot. 1. I suggest reading the old pulp authors. They, for the most part, are excellent at getting the pace and the verbal texture that you're going to need. Since I run a more horror-oriented game, I use Lovecraftian terms (cthulnic, cyclopean, etc., etc.). I would actually avoid long descriptions though. I find that's when people begin to stack their dice. Although, this is a good technique to get the players to actually be self motivated. Just describe the area until the players are bored enough to try something on their own, then you give enough information to make the decision you want them to make. 2. #1 rule of NPC's is that they never take the thunder away from the PC's. For endearing them to the players, I suggest taking the stereotype that you want the NPC to represent, and then begin to make quick little changes, like for instance, the PC's are working for the Boromar clan, and there's a Halfling bladmaster who fills up the enforcer role with his crazy little sharrash. He starts out like a complete badass, and then you add a couple of little finishing touches, like how he helps out homeless people by giving them change occasionally, or how he's working as an enforcer to feed the Cyrean orphan he adopted. Also, make the NPC's "come through" when the PC's need them most. Thats all for now. more later
Seth of the First Brigade 06-13-06, 11:51 PM	Ricohard_Draconis 05-18-06 09:01 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3. Make them people too. give them reasons for being villains. Think of any villain from a comic book they are usually doing it for a reason be it revenge, greed or hate. tie them into backstories if you can. 4. be gentle. Let them think they're leading the way. nudge them with allies pressure them with foes.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-13-06, 11:57 PM	stembolt 05-18-06 11:40 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mastering the Noble art of DMing. A) The path to being a good DM is the same as the path to Carnegie hall; Practice, Practice, Practice. You are not going to be great overnight; you have to work at it. B) Forget all the fancy stuff and focus on the basics. Initiative, combat, spot checks. Until that is second nature go no further. C) Observe the reactions of your Players. You are not DMing for anyone, you are DMing for them. D) Use published adventures (for a while). They are quick, they are already well balanced and they allow you a chance to insert your own flair. Since you don’t need to detail the swamp dragons hold you can just think about the way to play the NPCs and how to describe that black dragon. E) Sometimes an Orc, should be described as an orc. DMs will often get so caught up in descriptions that they will forget that the PCs know what an Orc looks like. 6 orcs mounted on black stallions charge you waving their morning stars; the mark of the “blankity blank” tribe is painted on their crude wooden shields. (Good enough for a basic encounter) F) While big words are awesome. “Cyclopean” does you no good unless the players know it means “big.” (And take it from personal experience, most people think it means one-eyed) Specific Q and A Q: Painting a fantastic and wondrous picture of the world and the scenery. (AKA: Storytelling) enough to enthrall the players yet keep them wanting more. Helping them to realise that Eberron is a living, breathing world that they can do just about anything in. A: Tall order. Here you want to strike at the player, not the PC. The best thing to do is to know the story behind everything, and then supply it in bits, mostly out of character. One of my players asked me about druid magic. I said that druidic magic was taught to the orc tribes of Khorvaire by a Black Dragon. I answer a few more questions and then the next thing I know he is asking for sections to read about druids. Which brings me to another point. Just let people read the books (except for the adventures) it is much better they read about druids than you keep the fact that Kaius is a vampire a secret. Q: In addition to this I would like to motivate them to research things and dig deep into the mysteries, the secret things, and the histories that the world has to offer. A: Say “I would like you to research things and dig deep into the mysteries, the secret things, and the histories that the world has to offer.” Seriously. It may not even occur to them that they might do this. Q: Making the major NPC's come alive, and endearing the PC's to them. Or in the case that their enemy's the opposite. A: one good technique is the “stuff” method. There is an old saying “throw enough ‘stuff’ at the wall and some of it will stick” (I’m not actually talking about stuff here). I like the PCs to interact with a series of NPCs the ones they like (and hate) they meet again. Q: The best way to implement recurring Villains as well as Allies, without it becoming cheesy. Q: Passively motivating the players in the direction you want them to go. Very complicated. For beginners I say, don’t bother. Instead of reoccurring villains use a reoccurring organization. Like the emerald claw. And actually let players go where they want. It will keep you from disappointment. Making good NPCs In general to make better NPCs you should study relationships. The easiest way to do this is by watching TV. But don’t watch anything you need to watch TV that “works.” The following shows work: The Whedonverse: Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, and Firefly. Watch the commentary tracks as well, the writers and actors often have some great insights. These shows are hands down the best to help with RPGs. ER: You may laugh but ER is like an RPG how to manual. Think story arcs, character development via conflict, pacing and subplots. The original mission impossible: While not a great show, it is a great example of people with different skills working together. “House” works for looking at characters interacting, particularly intellectual interaction. Law and Order gives good Cop and criminal interaction, something very common in RPGs. Prison break has really interesting and complex relationships. Supernatural shows two brothers in very stressful circumstances. West wing is one of the best written shows on TV and helps show how to make adventures epic or important. (regardless of politics btw. I totally disagree with the show more often than not,) Battle star Galactica shows people at their absolute worst. Now these shows I recommend. Other shows are not on here because I haven’t seen them (I have heard veronica mars, the shield and farscape should make this list, I just haven’t seen them yet). They despite being quality don’t work for RPG learning (CSI, any comedy) or they just stink (no example provided, you can pretend your favorite show is one I haven’t seen).
Seth of the First Brigade 06-13-06, 11:58 PM	Sereno 05-19-06 09:22 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Especially in Eberron, don't hesitate to make the action cinematic or over the top. Action points can explain a lot of things. Capitalize on the features that make great movies ... well, great. The fight between Capt. Jack Sparrow and Will Turner in the blacksmith's shop was great because of the big variety of surfaces over which they fought (rocking cart, ceiling beams, etc...). Every good action movie has a "diving in front of the fireball." scene. Characters in action movies draw their weapons in flashy and stylistic ways. Bring these elements into your combat encounters. NPC depth is important. Evil villians need to have more purpose than "Rarr! I'm EEEvil!!" It's even better when the villian isn't completely evil. Each NPC you develop, who's likely to spend any time with the PCs, should have a solid description and a detailed personality. To second stembolt, TV can also be a great source of inspiration. I'll add that Farscape IS a good show with complex characters. And, I'll also suggest ABC's "Lost" as a great example of revealing mystery and keeping it mysterious....
Seth of the First Brigade 06-13-06, 11:58 PM	Endless_Helix 05-19-06 02:52 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have to agree with the analysis on Lost. It is an execelent model for anything in the wild. On stembolt's points, A: I concur. B:A word of caution, don't go to far-flung or too traditional. Throw them a crazy fight every now and then, like a time based encounter or an encounter where hurting the enemies will occasionally summon neutral monsters that attack anything. But, on the other hand, crazy fights all the time gets pretty bloody boring for the players, and pretty confusing. C: This is extremely important advice, but also remind the players that it works both ways, they have to put effort into it as well. D: I don't know... some of the adventures I've played through were pretty unblanced. I'd suggest that you look at published adventures, and then tailor them to your party. For instance, if the party is rogue-less and artificer-less, then add in a few secret doors to bypass the traps, but have them be haunted or something. If you're currently cleric-less, then undead aren't a hot idea, en-masse. Make less undead, but slightly more powerful ones. E: This is my greatest failing as a DM. I constantly do this, then curse myself for having to excercise my already muscular thesaurial lobe. :P F: See above. On a side note, all the pulp villains were pretty much evil for evil's sake (There were a few that were a good deal more round, but this is a generalization). I wouldn't worry as much about a recurring villain as advancing the plot. If the villain needs to be there in some form, you have him steal an artifact before fighting the PC's head on, then reveal some of it's powers while he was "dead". Then he comes back to life to hunt for the artifact etc., etc. Just try to avoid a Deus Ex Machina ending to an encounter, cliched is fine, but when the players know they have no control, it just ain't as fun.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-13-06, 11:59 PM	PoeticJustice 05-19-06 04:48 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Have a story in mind. The players, more so as this will be their first time in a new setting, take their cues from the DM. Having a logical story to go along with the adventure helps everything run smoothly.
RedUncle 06-14-06, 07:08 AM	personally, I find that creating NPCs in order to provide my players with extremely memorable encounters... (and let the NPC backstory/plot relevance take back seat for a moment) - give the NPC an astonishingly bizarre/amusing name... similar to those humorous "pornstar" nicknames - something like "Meat Longtouch" --- or "Slide Nightgape" ....... I find when the players react with a laugh, they tend to recall the NPCs with more enthusiasm/become more involved - and secondly, concentrate on their behavior and appearance ---- I really like the NPC generator in the DMG (but it's not long enough, so perhaps you could make your own) -------- I give the NPC two or three extremely exaggerated/almost cartoonish character traits, and again this evokes laughter from the players - who instantly immerse themselves....... - I find it helpful to think of a celebrity/movie character who I can use as a framework for the NPC... so in my notes, I need simply to remember the celebrity (Rodney Dangerfield, for example) and I know exactly how the NPC looks/behaves etc... - finally, when it comes to their life/back story -- I leave it rather open... and I allow the actions of the players to craft the tale ----- not only does it simplify the process for me, it also makes the players feel as if they're roleplaying actually has an impact on the world... this is from experience as a player - D&D is the most fun when you... A) feel absolute control over your character's destiny and surroundings B) laugh... a lot !! ........... I guess what I'm saying is pretty standard DM stuff - but it's easy to forget....... having FUN is of the highest importance... (a FIRST TIME player came up to me last week after our session, grinning, and said "that's the most fun I've had in a year!" - I completely sold her on the idea of D&D ---- and it made me so HAPPY!)
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 12:36 AM	stembolt 05-20-06 12:08 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I want to point out that my comments on shows are in this case with regard to character interaction. For character interaction “Lost” is a good example of a bad show. The characters never believable interact. The reasoning is a bit obtuse and modern literary. The characters never act the way you assume they should act to increase the drama. Supposedly this is to illustrate that the characters have backstory you don’t know about, I really don’t want to get into an analysis of lost. Suffice to say, what you can see of the characters is off kilter. Quote: I don't know... some of the adventures I've played through were pretty unblanced. I'd suggest that you look at published adventures, and then tailor them to your party. I should have specified. Dungeon adventures or WotC adventures.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 12:38 AM	Doctor X 05-20-06 04:50 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I begin by explaining to any new players (or seasoned players who've never been exposed to Eberron) the meaning of "pulp/noir." If time allows, and the players are interested, I'll show them some select movies, especially including the ones listed in the ECS intro. I also like to make everyone watch Firefly if they haven't seen it, seeing as the show includes some of the best Eberron-style dialogue and character interaction I've ever seen in any movie, TV show, or otherwise. Aside from the movies, however, I like to sit down and have a "pulp/noir" brainstorm. I pitch out ideas for character behavior to set an example-- sucker punches, haggling with and lying to patrons, being a smartass in the most dire situations, and so on. I try to get everyone else to start thinking of similar actions to get them in the mindset of Eberron-style roleplaying. When actually running the game, I like to follow the "Whedon approach" of making things dark, gritty, and even borderline hopeless, then telling a joke or two. I award XP for such behavior, as well as the sort of stuff we come up with before the game as described above. Combat never occurs without a good reason aside from "the PC's need XP," and I only very rarely run encounters that aren't at least 2 levels ahead of the party. It's all about the cinematic battle scenes, not dungeon-crawling or XP grinding. As far as playing NPC's go, I generally make it a rule that anyone who genuinely wants to help the party obscures his or her benevolence with layer upon layer of questionable behavior, suspicion, sarcastic wit, a twisted sense of humor, or any combination of the above. Anyone who seems obviously trustworthy is by default harboring some hidden motive. Many villains, however, are quite obviously evil, twisted SOBs with easily identifiable personality quirks. Remember, Eberron isn't just about noir, and so-called "supervillains" are a hallmark of the pulp genres. The only difference is that PC's sometimes have a very hard time telling the villain apart from some of their supposed allies, even when taken to extremes. And of course, double-crosses and crazy plot-twists are always a must, but it's important to be careful not to overuse them or the players will come to expect them. This requires the most delicate touch out of generally anything else, I think, and unfortunately it usually depends on what kind of people you have in your group. With a bit of practice it's not that hard to find a suitable balance. Doctor X 05-20-06 05:37 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As far as answers to your specific questions go (forgot this was sort of the point of the thread): Quote: Originally Posted by Seth of the First Brigade 1. Painting a fantastic and wondrous picture of the world and the scenery. (AKA: Storytelling) enough to enthrall the players yet keep them wanting more. Helping them to realise that Eberron is a living, breathing world that they can do just about anything in. In addition to this I would like to motivate them to research things and dig deep into the mysteries, the secret things, and the histories that the world has to offer. Well, personally, I don't believe scenery that isn't likely to get involved in the action is a very important thing to concentrate on most of the time. I find it helps to focus directly on what is happening and little else. Classic film noir tends to have fairly stark sets that don't draw attention away from the actors, just as long, drawn-out descriptions of the PC's surroundings tend to slow down the pace and make players slip out of the dramatic tension a bit. When it comes to fight scenes and tense roleplaying (which composes about sixty to seventy percent of my sessions), the only things I usually focus on are lighting, a very basic idea of surroundings, often no more than "this study obviously was made to look good rather than to actually be used," and any major set pieces-- a desk between the party and a patron, for example, so characters can slam their fists down on it, throw papers or money onto it, jump on top of it while drawing a weapon, and so on. A lightning flash, howling winds, and other weather can't hurt either. I know it sounds cheesy, but people still use it in movies to this day for a reason-- it works, and that's fine by me. Quote: 2. Making the major NPC's come alive, and endearing the PC's to them. Or in the case that their enemy's the opposite. I described it a bit in my last post. I generally try to make all of my major NPC's enigmas to at least some degree. The only exceptions tend to be the "supervillans," who sometimes end up being the most memorable even if they are predictible. Quote: 3. The best way to implement recurring Villians as well as Allies, without it becoming cheesy. Give every potential recurring character some type of escape plan, and always have them part with some sort of smartass one-liner or mocking gesture (salutes, handwaving, evil smiles and so on), making sure the PC's know that they probably haven't seen the last of this person. Then, try to make them forget about it. Attract their attention with something else, something incredibly urgent, so they're not worrying about the "one that got away." Once you have them thoroughly distracted, have the villain come back at the worst possible time to give the reappearance the maximum impact. It's never cheesy if the timing is right. Quote: 4. Passively motivating the players in the direction you want them to go. If players have proper Eberron characters, money is always a big motivator, as is a good ol' death threat from a couple powerful organizations. Aside from that, I find it usually helps to not even worry about "where you want them to go" and instead throw together a loose string of scenes and conflicts that can occur in any particular order, if all of them even occur at all. You can use this stuff like a "toolbox" to add content to your game ad hoc based on what the players do. What you don't get to use, you can always save for later. One of my favorite things about the Eberron modules (Shadows, Whispers, and Grasp) is the "A guy kicks in the door" section at the beinning of WotVB. Just like it says, if the pace ever slows to a crawl and the PC's don't seem to be getting anywhere, have somebody come to them instead and prod them into action. Quote: 5. Anything else that other DM's might find pertinant. I think I said most of what I want to say in my previous post, at least Eberron-wise. As far as additional tips go, however, there's one thing I wish more DM's would remember: Rules are a tools, not constraints. What really matters is the story, and the exitement you and your players get from playing through it. As long as that's there, nothing else really matters too much. If you forget a couple rules, don't worry so much about looking it up and making sure you've got it right. A quick DM's ruling on a confusing subject keeps the game moving as opposed to taking the time to pull out you books. Of course, it helps to make sure everybody knows what they need to know rules-wise before you start to avoid this sort of thing, but when it does come up I'll favor the quicker, less game-disrupting approach almost every time.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 12:39 AM	stembolt 05-20-06 11:20 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To add to Doctor X’s advice I would like to point out a few things. First off his writing is mostly geared towards an experienced DM going to Eberron as opposed to a real novice. Next while he focuses on noir he mostly neglects pulp (of course there is no reason in any specific adventure/campaign it can’t be all noir or pulp or swashbuckling or even anything else). So where noir neglects back ground pulp adventure embraces them. Quote: Rules are a tools, not constraints. What really matters is the story, and the exitement you and your players get from playing through it. This type of statement I avoid because it is so misunderstood. The fact of the matter is, you can’t neglect rules. Rules are part of the game in fact that’s what a game is, a collection of rules. To maintain verisimilitude with the players you need to consistently and evenly apply the rules. That being said, if you are in the middle of the fast paced chase scene don’t stop to look up are rule. You should have looked up pertinent rules beforehand but failing that just make a call and move on. Better to keep the action up. Quote: Give every potential recurring character some type of escape plan, and always have them part with some sort of smartass one-liner or mocking gesture (salutes, handwaving, evil smiles and so on), making sure the PC's know that they probably haven't seen the last of this person. An inexperienced DM with clever PCs will rarely pull this off. Set it up but don’t be too disappointed when it fails. The trick is if you set it up enough times it will eventually work.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 12:41 AM	Ricohard_Draconis 05-20-06 11:44 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- and even if they die thats not the end of it. Theres can always be their brother/sister/master/pupil/other there to avenge them.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 12:49 AM	Endless_Helix 05-20-06 01:23 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- And never forget the "coward's pearl" item. It is the ultimate "Plan B" escape plan. And it's easily concealable and easy to use...
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 12:50 AM	Doctor X 05-20-06 01:54 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Originally Posted by stembolt To add to Doctor X’s advice I would like to point out a few things. First off his writing is mostly geared towards an experienced DM going to Eberron as opposed to a real novice. Well, personally I've only been playing D&D at all for a little over 2 years, DMing for most of that time, and I hadn't started with Eberron until about four or five months in, but I guess I can see where you're coming from. My experiences, however, lead me to believe that setting a proper atmoshphere is quite easy even for new DM's as long as you have players who cooperate. If your players don't cooperate, keeping them focused is something I can't really offer advice for, since I've never been able to pull it off myself. I try to avoid DMing for such groups. :P But hey, this is about "Mastering" the art of DMing, not just starting with it, so I thought I'd share what knowledge I do have... I think I'm a pretty long way from being a "master" so I don't see why I should be holding anything back. :) Quote: Next while he focuses on noir he mostly neglects pulp (of course there is no reason in any specific adventure/campaign it can’t be all noir or pulp or swashbuckling or even anything else). So where noir neglects back ground pulp adventure embraces them. Pulp doesn't focus on "what color the drapes are" or "exactly how many crystals there are in that chandalier." Sure, exploring the world is a big part of pulp, but so is action, and drawn-out descriptions disrupt the action. When you're watching a movie, you might see a whole lot of detailed scenery, but it's often rushing by in chase scenes and so forth. The focus is rarely on the sets aside from the classic "sweeping camera with dramatic music" over a huge, newly discovered adventure site, but even these scenes don't last nearly as long it would take a DM to describe them with words down to the last square inch. Simply put, excessive descriptions kill atmosphere, and the reason why I want to make that clear is because many DM's I've had (newbie and experienced) fall into the trap of thinking the players need to know everything, and as Endless_Helix said, this will often end up with your players fiddling with their dice-- a definite sign of boredom. If you see them doing this, that's when you know you've wasted too much time. I guess if an Eberron DM wants to use extraordinarily detailed scenery, a good idea might be to fall back on art from books and maybe drawings if he can draw himself or knows somebody who can. It gets the point across without slowing things down. Either that, or he could just do what I do by giving them the basics and just letting them fill in the rest in their own imaginations. Quote: This type of statement I avoid because it is so misunderstood. The fact of the matter is, you can’t neglect rules. Rules are part of the game in fact that’s what a game is, a collection of rules. To maintain verisimilitude with the players you need to consistently and evenly apply the rules. That being said, if you are in the middle of the fast paced chase scene don’t stop to look up are rule. You should have looked up pertinent rules beforehand but failing that just make a call and move on. Better to keep the action up. I don't mean to neglect the rules. What I mean is more along the lines of what you said-- try your best to get them all straight ahead of time, but if you forget something in the middle of a fast-paced scene (and let's face it, it happens) diving into the books is the last thing you want to do. Quote: An inexperienced DM with clever PCs will rarely pull this off. Set it up but don’t be too disappointed when it fails. The trick is if you set it up enough times it will eventually work. True. I did lose my first few attempts at recurring villains, but since then, I've realized the trick is to overcompensate, usually involving magic-- invisibility, teleportation, mist forms, animal forms, and so on. A feather fall to jump off a bridge works wonders at low levels, changelings are great when there's a crowd nearby for them to dissapear into, and major distractions can help to keep the PC's from following even when following is possible. Having a new battle break out, letting minor lackeys take hostages, or bringing Watch officers in to bust down the door or surround the scene can make things a little more difficult. Sticking to these techniques I really don't see how even a beginning DM can't get things straight after a couple tries.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 12:50 AM	stembolt 05-20-06 07:41 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Pulp doesn't focus on "what color the drapes are" or "exactly how many crystals there are in that chandalier." Sure, exploring the world is a big part of pulp, but so is action, and drawn-out descriptions disrupt the action. Vibrant enormous vistas do not have to have particularly long descriptions. In a noir setting you might describe: “A smoky tavern dining room filled with sullen patrons. The barman wipes a dirty glass and most of the crowd is focused on their own cups. The gray color inside almost perfectly matches the pouring rain outside and the room reeks of coal tar and the unwashed masses. Candles provide scant illumination” in a pulp setting: “The balcony opens over the caldera of Dr. Evils volcano lair. Dozens of hobgoblin minions scurry about the immense space preparing with weather machine for its first test. The weather machine itself crouches malevolently like a hundred food tall mechanical mantis. The stink of sulfur and ozone is overpowering.” Quote: True. I did lose my first few attempts at recurring villains, but since then, I've realized the trick is to overcompensate, usually involving magic-- invisibility, teleportation, mist forms, animal forms, and so on. Be sure not to frustrate PCs. Getting away once in a while is fine, but if it happens often then it can be frustrating. Also if he turns invisible and they catch him, then he jumps of a cliff and they catch him, then he teleports away, it is also very frustrating.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 12:52 AM	jonthegm 05-20-06 08:07 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Everything I needed to know to run a pulp game I learned from King Kong (http://www.wizards.com/leaving.asp?url=http://savethegm.blogspot.com/2005/12/everything-i-needed-to-know-to-run.html&origin=)
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 12:52 AM	Seth of the First Brigade 05-22-06 09:20 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I would love to here more on this subject if any other DM's or Players for that matter have anything to add. Regards, Seth
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 12:53 AM	Sereno 05-23-06 08:28 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Another element that I haven't noticed mentioned is what I've been calling the "Eberron twist." Don't always do the obvious. In a setting with tree-hugger orcs and screaming-horde elves, plots should be more convoluted and the straight-forward solution not necessarily the correct one. Smokescreens and misdirection are key. In an adventure I recently ran for my players, they needed to rescue a group of rich young people who were out "playing adventurer" and went to a "haunted island." The young "adventurers" had run afoul of a thieves' guild and were going to be ransomed. The "haunting" of the isle, at first, appeared to be cover for the thieves, using the island as a base. The "twist" I added was that the island was also really haunted, too, and the players not only had to rescue the young adventurers from the thieves, but survived the real ghosts as well. Another way to accomplish the "onion layering" of a good Eberron adventure is to run two (or more) different adventures (two or more separate plots) at the same time; allow the players to discover clues from multiple plotlines and let them figure out which belong to which. It makes the game play more like an episode of "Law and Order: Criminal Intent", where you aren't really sure what is important until more information is discovered.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 12:54 AM	Jürgen Hubert 05-23-06 09:08 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I always start with the villain. What is he motivated by, and what does he hope to achive? What are his resources, his allies, his enemies? Above all, what is his plan? And how can the PCs stumble across that plan? Getting a good idea of the villain helps me immensely in developing adventures. And if the PCs manage to foil his plans in an unexpected fashion, I find it relatively easy to improvise my way out of it - because I know precisely what the villain would do in such a situation. Oh, and the PCs don't have to understand the logic behind the part of the plan they have uncovered. The important thing is that there is a logic behind it all which the PCs can eventually uncover - inconsistency will drain suspension of disbelief very quickly. And one of the best parts of the adventure for the DM is when the PCs talk about all the clues they have uncovered and develop theories about what might be behind them. Take notes - they will often come up with better ideas than yours, so don't be afraid to change your adventures so that they are "proven right"...
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 12:55 AM	Endless_Helix 05-23-06 12:50 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert I always start with the villain. Take notes - they will often come up with better ideas than yours, so don't be afraid to change your adventures so that they are "proven right"... I just wanted to bring attention to a very important part of an excellent post. Often the players do have brains that come up with great ideas, startlingly frequently. Never, ever be afraid to steal those ideas and make them your own. Also, if you've played a lot of DnD as a player, think back to some of the ideas that your previous DM's used. Just because it worked in Greyhawk or FR doesn't mean it won't work in Eberron too.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 12:56 AM	Kreistor1 05-23-06 02:31 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Some of my personal rules... 1) If it speeds up gameplay, use it. a) I prepare recipe cards with important stats for the players, which they update when tehy level or gain equipment. Before game time, I prepare recipe cards for each of the NPC's with their major stats and combat activities. The NPC cards have pre-rolled Initiatives in the corner, and so for the encounter are already in the correct order. PC's roll their initiaives and slot into the pre-rolled sequence. Then just start at the top and keep it cycling. Any roll I don't have to make at the table speeds up the combat. For some effects, slot a card into the intiative order to keep track. You can add a card for the beginning of a round if you really want to, but its' not important enough. I stole this idea, but can't remember where from. (BTW, headings on the cards are in pen while stats are pencil, so the cards can be reused. Thicker cardboard works best.) b) Keeping track of major party items is achieved by creating stacks of cards, each card representing a single item. Can't remember who is wearing the Boots of Striding and Springing? Who has it in their stack? Well, that's who has it then. Forgot to move the card, then your character forgot to swap the item. This was Mr. Cook's idea, IIRC. 2) Eliminate things that slow gameplay. a) Poke slow players to keep them moving. Players can get caught in "I'm useless" or "I can do better" loops and waste time trying to solve the unsolvable or improve the already great. Give them some time, then a countdown. If they waffle, the character waffles. b) Slap down off-topic conversation. Allow a sentence or two, but don't let the party recount killing a dragon four years ago when they can kill another one tonight and have a new story. More often a problem for mature players. Often, it is one player driving the off-topic, and the others at the table will appreciate you keeping things going forward. But, yes, tehre are some nights when everyone feels like reminicing, so when it happens, just sit back, let the conversation flow, and continue the next week. But, watch everyone. Someone may still want to play, so be ready to bring things back to heel. 3) Narrate. The better and more vivid the description, the more visceral the experience. a) If the plot and story does not read like a good novel, it's not worth playing through. Read your story, and ask yourself, "If my favorite author wrote this storyline, would it be a good book?" If "No", then start again. b) If you don't know how to write well, get a Thesaurus and use Word. Write it your way, then eliminate all of the Red underlines. Next, go to all of the adjectives, open the Thesaurus, and replace them with better words. The more you do this, the more your vocabulary will grow. In time, you'll have more words in your head that mean the same thing, so you won't wind up repeating the same words over and over again. Also, find out what words like "awesome" really mean. A word that gets converted to slang never means what the slang uses it for, so learn how to use it correctly before assuming you already know what it really means. The herd is stupid: don't learn from the herd. 4) Prepare, prepare, prepare. a) I don't use reusable or wipeable maps. Business stores carry large 1" grid pads of paper. I make all my maps ahead of time and when the party gets there, sweep the stuff out of the way, lay the map down finished, and the combat starts. If I'm drawing a map, we kill fewer dragons that night. b) I re-read the storyline the morning of gameday. We play aft-eve. I make up my NPC cards and maps in the AM, which forces me to review all the details. I know the monsters, what they do, how they fight, and what terrain they are in. With them fresh in mind, I don't miss as much. 5) DM for the players and characters that you have. (Mentioned above.) a) Champions 2nd Ed had a great list of types of players. Often, people don't even realize how they play until they see such a thing quantized. Give them descriptions, and they will say, "I am that." More accurately, I want to hear, "I play like that but I want to change to play like this. It sounds more fun and I never thought you could do that." I find out how they view themselves, what they want to see in the campaign, and then I figure out what they are really like and really want, because very few people can accurately self-analyze themselves. What they tell you is wishful thinking, but that wish is actually very important. b) Watch player reactions. Some situations are just too stressful for some players. So, much as you think the story should go in that direction, make sure it doesn't if someone is going to consider leaving the campaign because of the style. c) Know how to challenge the party you have, not the party you don't have. A party without strong healing can't take huge damage/round on a single character. A lot of players seem to miss that a Cleric that heals in combat works extremely well, at least until they see that necessary in MMORPG's. If the party doesn't have a strong healer, dealing 75% HP to one character in one round means all fights need to end in less than 2 rounds or someone dies. Tone back the damage of the bad guys and give them other specials to compensate, like Trip, Sunder, Grapple, etc. -- things that annoy and are useful, but don't kill. Remember, unless there's a 'B' beside the feat, you can choose a replacement. d) Don't trivialize a character early in the episode. For instance, Strength damage on a Fighter in the first room of a huge dungeon makes the Fighter useless right off the bat, unless the party has the resources to repair the damage. He now has to survive a series of fights in which he can't hurt anything (ie. can't perform his primary function), or the party has to retreat and recover, wasting days which blows your plot out of the water if it was on the clock). A trivialized character reduces the EL, but odds are, you didn't account for that in the dungeon design. Hard to heal damage is little different from Save or Die, so it really needs a sanity check. What is it going to achieve, and why is it there? It may be really smart of the bad guys to use it, but that sort of thing just isn't worthy of being written into a story. e) As a DM, my story is inevitable. Remember that the players are writing their stories, too. They need their characters to survive to tell those stories. High character death rates mean you tell your story, but the players don't tell theirs. Not exactly fair. Yes, characters should die, but they should die for story driven reasons or for the stupidity of the player. (Been there, done that, didn't bother with the T-shirt.) Stopping the evil, saving the people. making the world a better place -- these are all good reasons to die. "You failed your Search check, fall down the pit, take 60HP damage and die to the Massive damage." isn't a good thing to write on the tombstone. 6) Variety is the spice of life. a) Surprise should break down into 33% being surprised, 33% surprising others, and 33% no surprise or mutual surprise. If you find that the players are never getting a surprise round, it's time for a paradigm shift. Some builds are penalized by campaigns where they can't buff up ahead of combat. No surprise for the party means those builds are constantly underpowered. Conversely, a party that always prepares will be overpowered compared to the enemy. b) Make certain the players never know what's around the corner. They may expect certain things, and yeah, sometimes you have to give it to them, but when that wandering squad of Gnoll Barbarian 3's hit them and they were expecting Gnoll Warrior 2's, that's when the players realize they aren't in Kansas anymore, the stress goes up, and the victory is sweeter. c) Use all the combat rules. Sunder, Overrun, Bull Rush, Trip, Grapple... they all have good uses. If you throw in too many grapplers, because you think it's the most powerful of the bunch, the game becomes monotonic and bland. Too many with Imp Grapple, Swallow Whole, or other annoyances also get on the players' nerves. d) Random encounters need to serve a purpose. Yes, have them, but control them as you would a dungeon. Use them to give the players a non-stressful combat break. If the party is EL6, then don't throw hard EL8's at them as randoms. Randoms need to be 5-6. Besides, Randoms speed up XP accumulation and throw the plot out of whack. Random encounters can be used to teach the players about the world, and foreshadow the plot to come. If you have a section coming up where the party is best served by not beating the fudge out of someone, then give them a random encounter in the three leading up to the real one where they can't beat the fudge out of the random, but they won't die if they try the hard way. They get forced into a conversation mode, so that when the real plot encounter arrives, they have it fresh in their minds, "You can talk to people," because they just did. Anyway, some things I do that seem to help.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 12:57 AM	Seth of the First Brigade 05-23-06 04:16 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Originally Posted by Jurgen_Herbert Take notes - they will often come up with better ideas than yours, so don't be afraid to change your adventures so that they are "proven right"... Quote: Originally Posted by Endless_Helix I just wanted to bring attention to a very important part of an excellent post. Often the players do have brains that come up with great ideas, startlingly frequently. Never, ever be afraid to steal those ideas and make them your own. Also, if you've played a lot of DnD as a player, think back to some of the ideas that your previous DM's used. Just because it worked in Greyhawk or FR doesn't mean it won't work in Eberron too. Man! What an awesome thought. That is such a simple idea. But what a great one. I just want everyone to know, you guys are giving some great advice, and it is going to help me tremendously in creating an amazing gaming experience. I would like to say thank you to everyone for taking their time to share some worthwhile things with someone who wants to learn. Thanks Again! Sincerely, Seth
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 12:58 AM	Seth of the First Brigade 05-23-06 04:33 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Originally Posted by Kreistor1 Some of my personal rules... 1) If it speeds up gameplay, use it. a) I prepare recipe cards with important stats for the players, which they update when tehy level or gain equipment. Before game time, I prepare recipe cards for each of the NPC's with their major stats and combat activities. The NPC cards have pre-rolled Initiatives in the corner, and so for the encounter are already in the correct order. PC's roll their initiaives and slot into the pre-rolled sequence. Then just start at the top and keep it cycling. Any roll I don't have to make at the table speeds up the combat. For some effects, slot a card into the intiative order to keep track. You can add a card for the beginning of a round if you really want to, but its' not important enough. I stole this idea, but can't remember where from. (BTW, headings on the cards are in pen while stats are pencil, so the cards can be reused. Thicker cardboard works best.) b) Keeping track of major party items is achieved by creating stacks of cards, each card representing a single item. Can't remember who is wearing the Boots of Striding and Springing? Who has it in their stack? Well, that's who has it then. Forgot to move the card, then your character forgot to swap the item. This was Mr. Cook's idea, IIRC. 2) Eliminate things that slow gameplay. a) Poke slow players to keep them moving. Players can get caught in "I'm useless" or "I can do better" loops and waste time trying to solve the unsolvable or improve the already great. Give them some time, then a countdown. If they waffle, the character waffles. b) Slap down off-topic conversation. Allow a sentence or two, but don't let the party recount killing a dragon four years ago when they can kill another one tonight and have a new story. More often a problem for mature players. Often, it is one player driving the off-topic, and the others at the table will appreciate you keeping things going forward. But, yes, tehre are some nights when everyone feels like reminicing, so when it happens, just sit back, let the conversation flow, and continue the next week. But, watch everyone. Someone may still want to play, so be ready to bring things back to heel. 3) Narrate. The better and more vivid the description, the more visceral the experience. a) If the plot and story does not read like a good novel, it's not worth playing through. Read your story, and ask yourself, "If my favorite author wrote this storyline, would it be a good book?" If "No", then start again. b) If you don't know how to write well, get a Thesaurus and use Word. Write it your way, then eliminate all of the Red underlines. Next, go to all of the adjectives, open the Thesaurus, and replace them with better words. The more you do this, the more your vocabulary will grow. In time, you'll have more words in your head that mean the same thing, so you won't wind up repeating the same words over and over again. Also, find out what words like "awesome" really mean. A word that gets converted to slang never means what the slang uses it for, so learn how to use it correctly before assuming you already know what it really means. The herd is stupid: don't learn from the herd. 4) Prepare, prepare, prepare. a) I don't use reusable or wipeable maps. Business stores carry large 1" grid pads of paper. I make all my maps ahead of time and when the party gets there, sweep the stuff out of the way, lay the map down finished, and the combat starts. If I'm drawing a map, we kill fewer dragons that night. b) I re-read the storyline the morning of gameday. We play aft-eve. I make up my NPC cards and maps in the AM, which forces me to review all the details. I know the monsters, what they do, how they fight, and what terrain they are in. With them fresh in mind, I don't miss as much. 5) DM for the players and characters that you have. (Mentioned above.) a) Champions 2nd Ed had a great list of types of players. Often, people don't even realize how they play until they see such a thing quantized. Give them descriptions, and they will say, "I am that." More accurately, I want to hear, "I play like that but I want to change to play like this. It sounds more fun and I never thought you could do that." I find out how they view themselves, what they want to see in the campaign, and then I figure out what they are really like and really want, because very few people can accurately self-analyze themselves. What they tell you is wishful thinking, but that wish is actually very important. b) Watch player reactions. Some situations are just too stressful for some players. So, much as you think the story should go in that direction, make sure it doesn't if someone is going to consider leaving the campaign because of the style. c) Know how to challenge the party you have, not the party you don't have. A party without strong healing can't take huge damage/round on a single character. A lot of players seem to miss that a Cleric that heals in combat works extremely well, at least until they see that necessary in MMORPG's. If the party doesn't have a strong healer, dealing 75% HP to one character in one round means all fights need to end in less than 2 rounds or someone dies. Tone back the damage of the bad guys and give them other specials to compensate, like Trip, Sunder, Grapple, etc. -- things that annoy and are useful, but don't kill. Remember, unless there's a 'B' beside the feat, you can choose a replacement. d) Don't trivialize a character early in the episode. For instance, Strength damage on a Fighter in the first room of a huge dungeon makes the Fighter useless right off the bat, unless the party has the resources to repair the damage. He now has to survive a series of fights in which he can't hurt anything (ie. can't perform his primary function), or the party has to retreat and recover, wasting days which blows your plot out of the water if it was on the clock). A trivialized character reduces the EL, but odds are, you didn't account for that in the dungeon design. Hard to heal damage is little different from Save or Die, so it really needs a sanity check. What is it going to achieve, and why is it there? It may be really smart of the bad guys to use it, but that sort of thing just isn't worthy of being written into a story. e) As a DM, my story is inevitable. Remember that the players are writing their stories, too. They need their characters to survive to tell those stories. High character death rates mean you tell your story, but the players don't tell theirs. Not exactly fair. Yes, characters should die, but they should die for story driven reasons or for the stupidity of the player. (Been there, done that, didn't bother with the T-shirt.) Stopping the evil, saving the people. making the world a better place -- these are all good reasons to die. "You failed your Search check, fall down the pit, take 60HP damage and die to the Massive damage." isn't a good thing to write on the tombstone. 6) Variety is the spice of life. a) Surprise should break down into 33% being surprised, 33% surprising others, and 33% no surprise or mutual surprise. If you find that the players are never getting a surprise round, it's time for a paradigm shift. Some builds are penalized by campaigns where they can't buff up ahead of combat. No surprise for the party means those builds are constantly underpowered. Conversely, a party that always prepares will be overpowered compared to the enemy. b) Make certain the players never know what's around the corner. They may expect certain things, and yeah, sometimes you have to give it to them, but when that wandering squad of Gnoll Barbarian 3's hit them and they were expecting Gnoll Warrior 2's, that's when the players realize they aren't in Kansas anymore, the stress goes up, and the victory is sweeter. c) Use all the combat rules. Sunder, Overrun, Bull Rush, Trip, Grapple... they all have good uses. If you throw in too many grapplers, because you think it's the most powerful of the bunch, the game becomes monotonic and bland. Too many with Imp Grapple, Swallow Whole, or other annoyances also get on the players' nerves. d) Random encounters need to serve a purpose. Yes, have them, but control them as you would a dungeon. Use them to give the players a non-stressful combat break. If the party is EL6, then don't throw hard EL8's at them as randoms. Randoms need to be 5-6. Besides, Randoms speed up XP accumulation and throw the plot out of whack. Random encounters can be used to teach the players about the world, and foreshadow the plot to come. If you have a section coming up where the party is best served by not beating the fudge out of someone, then give them a random encounter in the three leading up to the real one where they can't beat the fudge out of the random, but they won't die if they try the hard way. They get forced into a conversation mode, so that when the real plot encounter arrives, they have it fresh in their minds, "You can talk to people," because they just did. Anyway, some things I do that seem to help. :clap: :bow: Need I say more?
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 12:59 AM	Dragonlover 05-23-06 07:11 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Whilst the players are dealing with three things, give them something else to worry about. For example, in my game the party had got through the Dhaakhani burial mound and destroyed the shard they were looking for, but it was down in a pit. So while they were climbing out the magical energy released by the shards destruction caused an earthquake, meaning that the party had to get out of the pit and back up the corridor pronto. Of course, the earthquake was causing the floor to collapse as well as the ceiling. Dragonlover
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 12:59 AM	stembolt 05-23-06 11:14 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Take notes - they will often come up with better ideas than yours, so don't be afraid to change your adventures so that they are "proven right"... Quote: I just wanted to bring attention to a very important part of an excellent post. Often the players do have brains that come up with great ideas, startlingly frequently. Never, ever be afraid to steal those ideas and make them your own. Or to be more precise, never do this. If you are presenting a scenario to the PCs don’t change it. You will never be able to reconcile the two situations and you would be falsely gratifying a Player that they had figured it out. Quote: 1) If it speeds up gameplay, use it. False. That which speeds up the game does not necessarily make the game better. Both of the practical examples seem good though. Quote: I prepare recipe cards with important stats for the players, which they update when tehy level or gain equipment. Good idea, not for everyone, but it works. Quote: b) Keeping track of major party items is achieved by creating stacks of cards, each card representing a single item. Seems like this will get cumbersome fast. I will have to try it out while my party is low level. Quote: 2) Eliminate things that slow gameplay Similarly things that slow the game don’t necessarily make it worse. Quote: a) Poke slow players to keep them moving. Sometimes a player needs the extra time. You are better off helping them than by saying “waffle and you loose your turn 3-2-1 times up.” Quote: b) Slap down off-topic conversation. Allow a sentence or two, but don't let the party recount killing a dragon four years ago when they can kill another one tonight and have a new story. Yes, especially the part where you occasionally need to let them talk. Quote: 3) Narrate. The better and more vivid the description, the more visceral the experience. Or in other words: The better something is, the better it is. You need to tailor things to the group and the situation. When you speak, pay attention to what your players like. Quote: a) If the plot and story does not read like a good novel, it's not worth playing through. Read your story, and ask yourself, "If my favorite author wrote this storyline, would it be a good book?" If "No", then start again. NO. An adventure is not a novel. Ask yourself, if I was a player would I like this? Adventures make terrible novels. Quote: a) I don't use reusable or wipeable maps. Business stores carry large 1" grid pads of paper. I make all my maps ahead of time and when the party gets there, sweep the stuff out of the way, lay the map down finished, and the combat starts. If I'm drawing a map, we kill fewer dragons that night. Some do it this way. It does take some time to draw, but not that long. I guess it may depend on how good your drawings are when you do them fast. Quote: d) Don't trivialize a character early in the episode. I agree with the sentiment, not the example. A little strength damage blows some healing or makes the fights tougher. Quote: a) Surprise should break down into 33% being surprised, 33% surprising others, and 33% no surprise or mutual surprise. Surprise should depend on how hard the PCs try to sneak.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 01:01 AM	Jürgen Hubert 05-24-06 04:20 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Originally Posted by stembolt Or to be more precise, never do this. If you are presenting a scenario to the PCs don’t change it. You will never be able to reconcile the two situations and you would be falsely gratifying a Player that they had figured it out. Oh, I don't know - I get away with it all the time. Sure, it takes some skill at improvising, but it is not that hard, really. Besides, the players do like it when they are "proven right". The important thing is to prepare enough material in detail that you have enough material for the PCs to be occupied for a single session. Beyond that, you can leave large "clouds of uncertaincy" - things that you have some ideas for, but which you can use or not use as you wish. That allows you to be flexible with your long-term campaign plans. In fact, the best state a PC - or a player, for that matter - can be in from the point of view of the DM is a certain level of uncertaincy. From time to time, they should hear vague rumors about things, people, and places that mystify, interest, or frighten them. These can be totally unrelated to the current adventure, and ideally they should learn of them just as they really need to do something else - after all, you don't want them to pack up and leave the current adventure to go to a distant place chasing some rumors. But it can feed their paranoia, and if their interest in something is big enough, you can create an adventure around it. In fact, whenever you conclude an adventure, you should ask the party members: "So, what do you plan to do next?" This will often be enough to inspire the next adventure, and even if it isn't, you know where the PCs will likely be and are thus able to bring them into the adventure in a natural way.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 01:02 AM	stembolt 05-24-06 10:03 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Oh, I don't know - I get away with it all the time. Sure, it takes some skill at improvising, but it is not that hard, really. Besides, the players do like it when they are "proven right". I would guess you don’t understand the issue. 1) If you are setting up a murder mystery implicating the prince and halfway through say “no it should be the butler.” You have half an adventures worth of clues that point to the prince. 2) The players are happy because you lied to them. See how happy they are after you say “You guys were never going to get that adventure so I changed the murderer to the guy you thought it was.” You are “getting away with winging it” not “exemplifying the qualities of a great DM.” Quote: In fact, whenever you conclude an adventure, you should ask the party members: "So, what do you plan to do next?" This is a method if you and your players simply want random adventures.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 01:03 AM	Kreistor1 05-24-06 11:47 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Kreistor: a) Surprise should break down into 33% being surprised, 33% surprising others, and 33% no surprise or mutual surprise. Stembolt: Surprise should depend on how hard the PCs try to sneak. Most of your responses are just nitpicking. This one, though is actually an issue of encounter design and is calculable before stepping up to the table, and is not an issue of skill checks when you get to the table. The Surprise I am talking about occurs if one side is capable of seeing the other first, preventing the other side from having the opportunity to participate in a surprise round. For the most part, that means prepared defenses or natural surroundings that prevent the other side from realizing they are being seen. An enemy with a prepared position can eliminate all concealment and cover in the approach to their position, preventing any PC sneaking up on you (you can't Hide in open terrain, and that's what the defenders will create if they have time, which is almost always in a dungeon or fixed location). Most encounters take place as the PC's invade enemy positions (rooms, caves, forts, facilities, etc.). (I use modules of examples of common play. Individual DM's can choose to design differently and have a different standard encounter.) So, from a "realistic" standpoint, the PC's should almost always be surprised by what's in the next room and the noise and defenders in the lead up rooms should prepare the defenders for what's coming. Old school DnD has sound not penetrating doors to wake up the next room. More recently, this has changed and designers are chaining together alerts in prepared positions such that a fight in Room 1 will result in Room 2-5 all knowing there's something going on, so get ready! The problem with this "realistic" situation is that it disadvantages certain builds. The game system is designed around an empty arena (ie. 0 surprise) situation. The designers don't look at a character and say, "It can't handle being surprised as well as another, so if surprise is more frequent in the campaign, this character needs something to compensate." In that situation, where the DM plays too "realistically", there is an inherent disadvantage and the build does not achieve the intended potential. A real design consideration should be, "If the class needs to spend rounds of buffing to achieve power, it needs Spot on the skill list so it can spend the surprise round to buff, otherwise it winds up two steps behind the enemy who get offensive actions in both the surprise round and first round." The designers just don't think that way. With the change to 1 minute buffs in 3.5, players can't afford to cast those buffs unless they are certain they are needed for the next room. All characters and players need to shine at the table at some point. Everyone needs to get their moment in the sun. If the DM's attitude towards "surprise" situations ensures that one character can never shine because the PC's never get the opportunity to pre-buff, that player is trivialized and won't like the game because his friends are shining and he's not. No matter what the DM's opinion of what the game should be, he suddenly has a major problem (an unhappy player) that he must solve. Is asking a player to replace a character reasonable? A lot of DM's are uncomfortable with that, and for good reason: the player designed a valid character according to the rules, so why is the DM not letting him do his job? That's a valid question you have to be prepared to answer, because the designers obviously feel that the character was balanced... it's the DM that's unbalancing it, and just how certain are you of your change to basic gameplay being an acceptable respone to the player? What is more important: your opinion being right, or keeping a good player? This is a situation where being right means losing a friend: if you're thinking the player should compensate, then you feel your Ego is more important than the player's fun, jsut to put it bluntly. Eventually, regardless of your own opinion of how a world should work, you must suck up the fact that this is a group game and everyone at the table needs to have fun and it is your responsiblity as a DM to make certain that fun happens: so take the Ego hit and change. "Realistic" is not a justification for "not fun." Whether Surprise can happen depends on the design of the encounters before the players reach the table. The DM should, after a design session, be able to sit back and say, "Okay, the PC's may be surprised here, here, and here. And they can surprise the enemy... nowhere." At that point, "surprise" is no longer an issue of Spot checks, it is an issue of design. Whether the Spot checks succeed or not, the players must be given the opportunity to both surprise the enemy and be surprised by the enemy. That's an issue of design, not Spot checks. Spot checks decide if in each instance the PC achieves surprise: it is the encounter design that decides who gets to make checks in the first place. I'm not saying that in every dungeon, a DM should match situations, ie. every dungeon should not break down 33%/33%/33%. And those are the numbers I target for: 10/80/10 is also reasonable. The important part is balancing the having Surprise vs. being surprised frequencies, sicne the unsuprised situation naturally have no balance point. Going into a dungeon where the enemy knows you're coming should be a frequent surprise issue for the players, since the enemy can't be surprised (due to preparation and forewarning of enemy approach) and the PC's are often on the clock and don't have the time to scout; however, for that one episode where the PC's are frequently surprised, there should be an episode where the PC's frequently do the surprising. I'm currently using a fixed fort to provide the PC's with control of the situation: they can achieve surprise situations if they so choose, but they have the power in their hands, giving them the feeling of control I stripped from them during the last adventure when they were forced into an adventure they may not have individually wanted to do. This problem became clear to me in playing through the Eberron modules. I haven't read them, only played through them, so I don't know for certain whether this was a basic design issue or the DM's choice. We never (or very rarely) got the opportunity to surprise the enemy, so either the encounters were always mutual surprise, neither surprised, or we were surprised, but in the vast majority of encounters we never had the warning necessary to pre-buff, forcing us to use valuable rounds buffing and letting the enemy hold the initiative. We were almost always on the clock: get out there and stop them now, or bad things happen! We never saw the enemy at long range, allowing us to prepare a position or choose the terrain, the enemy always had excellent hide positions (and the clock thing prevented our own stealthy approach). We never had a "You can surprise them" chance in the first place, so Spot checks didn't matter except as defense against being completely surprised. We did, on the other hand, face many situations where the enemy had a prepared defense and were aware of our approach, giving them surprise. I don't have a problem with each individual module: I'm not saying that the individual encounters were poorly thought out. My complaint is that there was no overall view looking down and saying, "The PC's haven't gotten a surprise round in four levels. Isn't that a problem with overall design? Sure, the encounters are interesting, but are they fair to all the players, or just the ones that took classes that don't prepare?" A good example of a class with a problem with such a design decision is the Psychic Warrior. A lot of people look at the stats on the page and think, "It's overpowered." Having played one, I know that's not true. In encounters where the PC's are surprised, the PW is underpowered for the entire fight. The PW is more powerful than a Fighter in the same situation only if the PW gets to buff before the encounter. In unbuffed encounters, the PW has fewer HP, lower BAB, and fewer attacks than the Fighter. Yes, the PW can spend a round to buff, but when taking the front line, that's a round the PW is not holding the line or dealing damage while the Fighter is. So, I am glad that I didn't take a PW for the campaign I'm in now, where we never have the opportunity to pre-buff, since he wouldn't shine. A Fighter is the right choice for that series of modules, because it does have favoritism towards the enemy for surprise and preparation for combat. I have a PW in the campaign I run, as well as a buffing Divine caster. To make those characters useful, I must ensure that they sometimes get to pre-buff, or I trivialize those builds. Yes, they also face situations where they don't get to buff, so that's the balance -- one weak fight for one strong fight.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 01:04 AM	Seth of the First Brigade 05-24-06 12:16 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Originally Posted by Jürgen Hubert In fact, whenever you conclude an adventure, you should ask the party members: "So, what do you plan to do next?" This will often be enough to inspire the next adventure, and even if it isn't, you know where the PCs will likely be and are thus able to bring them into the adventure in a natural way. Stembolt, Ok let me see if I can communicate this thought clearly. If for instance you are passively feeding them little morsels of information about "things of interest" things that aren’t per say tied into the campaign. Maybe they are side quest that you want them to go on, things to satisfy their curiosity about the world as they are moving through the adventure. Could this work if they have maybe just finished an adventure in the campaign and are between adventures, maybe they have two weeks or a week before things crank up again and they want to take a little vacation, travel abit and see the sights. Say they meet someone at a tavern or an inn, a friendly fellow or gal who strikes up a conversation about the latest raid of a Valenar Warband, or the latest story of a group of treasure hunters that found the lost treasure of a great giant king of Xen'drik, and how they just recently with the proceeds bought a tract of land in Skyway; no word on what their building yet but I bet its gonna be amazing, man I sure would love to be a treasure hunter, but I got kids to feed, as a matter of fact its getting late friends, I better be off to bed gotta be at the docks early tomorrow. He stands up and tilts his head, giving the group a kindly nod as he leaves. Things like this, where you have passively planted things in their mind that may or may not strike their curiosity, if they go they may find some really cool stuff, or maybe meet someone important that they never would have met otherwise. If they don’t go, the adventure continues as usual. (Whoa, I just had an epiphany) Maybe these could be like, (do you remember the old "Chose your own Adventure " books. Where depending on the decisions that you the reader makes or in this case the players make will dictate the outcome of the story. This could work especially well in Eberron being that there are so many shades of grey, and anyone could be the "person in the right" from a certain point of view. But I suppose that would take allot of work on the DM's part, (This next question is for everyone). Is there a secret or a technique to writing adventures, or campaigns like this? How would one write such an adventure/campaign and what would they be called ? Multi-tiered or open ended adventures/campaigns. Keith kinda talked about something like this in another discussion. This quote comes from a discussion on the cause of the "Mourning" but once you read it I believe you will see how it applies. Quote: Originally Posted by Hellcow No. I've always had multiple explanations in mind. One of my other favorite RPGs (which I've also done a little writing for) is called Over the Edge; it's a game of modern conspiracy, and the key is that many of the conspiracies have multiple explanations. This is critical, because it means that as a DM who's read the game material, I can play in someone else's OTE campaign and NOT know the answer to every mystery, because I don't know which path they've chosen. I kept that same principle in mind with Eberron. I've suggested various possibilities for what caused the Mourning, but from the beginning we all wanted it to be a mystery left for the DM to answer. Any thoughts? Stembolt...Jürgen Hubert...Anyone?
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 01:05 AM	Kreistor1 05-24-06 12:38 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: JH: In fact, whenever you conclude an adventure, you should ask the party members: "So, what do you plan to do next?" Stembolt: This is a method if you and your players simply want random adventures. Stem, you have got to be kidding me. You're in complete control of where those side adventures came from and where they go, so it's hardly random. For the players, choosing to take the option "Jump on an expedition to Xen'drik" means they want something a little lighter than the deep intrigue they've been dealing with for months. What the players choose to do next, without being aware of your next plan, tells you what they are interested in, and maybe what you've been doing wrong. My players are new tomy DM'ing style, so I introduced them early on to the concept of "Choosing to do something has consequences elsewhere." They chose to take teh offered plot hook to go investigate a dungeon, wound up missing a court date, and a criminal went free. That's stuck in their craw for a long time, but really , it was just a lesson in "Make certian you tie up your loose ends before having fun." But, still, they keep talking about trying to track her down and set right the wrong they committed. That is their right. Additionally, beyond teh plots they come up with, a good DM throws out multiple hooks for different types of adventures. For free citizens (as opposed to agents of a g'ment or military), it is important to provide the air of "you are choosing to be adventurers, not forced to be adventurers". The best way to achieve this is to provide choices for them to execute, which means you need to know what they plan on doing next. Hunt that criminal, take the job protecting the archeologist, pick up a bounty, follow the rumour of treasure in the Byeshk mountains, or join an expedition to Xen'drik -- I need to know so that I can prepare, but for the players, they have choices in what part of Eberron they want to see.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 01:08 AM	Kreistor1 05-24-06 01:07 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Seth: Is there a secret or a technique to writing adventures, or campaigns like this? How would one write such an adventure/campaign and what would they be called ? Multi-tiered or open ended adventures/campaigns. Not secret. It's called a flowchart. To make it work, you need a lot of lead up time to arrange the overall plots, so take a month to stabilize the chart before running the first adventure. A Flowchart is a structure used in science to demonstrate "What happens next". Ask a computer science teacher for the details, if you don't know. So, take a big piece of paper, like 3'x4'. Start at the top in the center. Create an encounter (or more accurately, a series of encounters) in very loose detail (don't create enemies, just an overview of the event, nothing more than 2 lines) on an 8.5"x11". Give it a title. Now, draw a box on the big sheet with the title and put a small box around it. Decide what pieces of information the enemy has that the PC's could gain. Based on that info decide on how many places the PC's may choose to visit. Draw a line off the bottom of your box for each choice. Create an encounter for each location. Rinse and repeat. After the first, some encounters could dead-end... not all should lead to the source. Eventually, several will lead to the final encounter with the real bad guy, some will lead to false bad guys, and others can dead-end at anything you feel like. Now, with the entire flowchart completed, go back to the first encounter and flesh it out. Finish it, and start the campaign. The PC's complete that encounter, and now you know which patht hey will take. Design the next encounter between sessions and then run that one. This is more or less how I design things, but I don't bother with the flowchart, since mine are more linear. They can jump off the line any time they want to, but the plot goes on without them so they stop getting important info. The heroic stuff is somewhere else for a while, but they'll still find things to do. It is typical in novels for the heroes to meet and bring along people with unique skill sets that they don't know they will need until later. I usually put these people in the adventure, but I often create serious reasons for their presence. The party will need a "charmer" to get info out of someone in two days. Well, the adventure starts with a bounty hunt, but the PC's are combat goons so need a real BH to show them the ropes. The BH? A Bard of course, with Charm and Suggestion. They don't have to take that BH, they could take the Ninja or Fighter/Rogue, but they have other ways of getting the important info. There, problem solved, and it seems perfectly natural.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 01:09 AM	Seth of the First Brigade 05-24-06 01:15 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Originally Posted by Kreistor1 I have a PW in the campaign I run, as well as a buffing Divine caster. To make those characters useful, I must ensure that they sometimes get to pre-buff, or I trivialize those builds. Yes, they also face situations where they don't get to buff, so that's the balance -- one weak fight for one strong fight. What is buff, unbuff, and prebuff? I have never heard of those terms before, are they slang house rule terms or are they canon terms that can be found and defined in WotC books? Thanks, Seth
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 01:10 AM	Kreistor1 05-24-06 01:29 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Though most commonly used as terms relating to MMORPG's, I cannot say if they originated there or only spread through them. A "buff" is any spell that gives a long term positive benefit to the character. Bull's Strength, Aid, Bless, Prayer, Enlarge, Polymorph, Stoneskin are all examples of Buffs. Unbuffed means you haven't had your buffs cast yet. Prebuffed means you can cast all or most of your buffs before engaging the enemy. Debuffs are spells that disadvantage the enemy. Bane, Doom, Baleful Polymorph, and Slow are all debuffs. In 3.0 it was easy to pre-buff, since buffs lasted 1 hour/level. This helped offset that surprise issue I was discussing; however, it made classes like the PW with lots of long term buffs more powerful than the unbuffing classes on a regular basis.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-15-06, 01:10 AM	Seth of the First Brigade 05-24-06 01:41 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Originally Posted by Kreistor1 Though most commonly used as terms relating to MMORPG's, I cannot say if they originated there or only spread through them. A "buff" is any spell that gives a long term positive benefit to the character. Bull's Strength, Aid, Bless, Prayer, Enlarge, Polymorph, Stoneskin are all examples of Buffs. Unbuffed means you haven't had your buffs cast yet. Prebuffed means you can cast all or most of your buffs before engaging the enemy. Debuffs are spells that disadvantage the enemy. Bane, Doom, Baleful Polymorph, and Slow are all debuffs. In 3.0 it was easy to pre-buff, since buffs lasted 1 hour/level. This helped offset that surprise issue I was discussing; however, it made classes like the PW with lots of long term buffs more powerful than the unbuffing classes on a regular basis. Thanks! PS: Kreistor1 are you in Atlanta, GA by chance. I cant tell by your profile.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-16-06, 12:18 AM	Kreistor1 05-24-06 02:36 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Heh, not even in the right country, much less region, state, or city. Ottawa Canada. Great White North. Canuckland. Canadian, eh? Modified the profile a little.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-16-06, 12:19 AM	Grymar 05-24-06 04:01 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Another technique for adventure building is to come up with a single cool set-piece or event and build around that. For instance in a new campaign I had no idea yet what I was going to do…thinking about Indiana Jones and whatnot I thought of a barfight. A good, old fashioned brawl. So I had a half-orc sucker-punch a PC, it broke out into a great non-lethal fight…then the half-orc NPC fell forward with a knife in his back. An old woman pointed to the party and screamed MURDERERS! The game was afoot. Ten minutes into the new campaign the party had been framed for murder and had no idea what the hell was up.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-16-06, 12:20 AM	Seth of the First Brigade 05-24-06 04:12 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Originally Posted by Grymar Another technique for adventure building is to come up with a single cool set-piece or event and build around that. For instance in a new campaign I had no idea yet what I was going to do…thinking about Indiana Jones and whatnot I thought of a barfight. A good, old fashioned brawl. So I had a half-orc sucker-punch a PC, it broke out into a great non-lethal fight…then the half-orc NPC fell forward with a knife in his back. An old woman pointed to the party and screamed MURDERERS! The game was afoot. Ten minutes into the new campaign the party had been framed for murder and had no idea what the hell was up. Nice! PS: How did you keep it non-lethal out of curiosity, where the PC's not armed, or for some reason did hey just not draw their weapons? Seth
Seth of the First Brigade 06-16-06, 12:21 AM	Grymar 05-24-06 04:27 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- They did that on their own. They saw that he had weapons but didn't draw them, so they decided to just beat the crap out of him. But there a chance it was going to go badly when the Artificer blew an action point to infuse his pewter mug with Bane. Fortunately, the fight was over by the time his next turn came around.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-16-06, 12:22 AM	Kreistor1 05-24-06 05:43 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: PS: How did you keep it non-lethal out of curiosity, where the PC's not armed, or for some reason did hey just not draw their weapons? Make certain criminals are punished. Give the law power. Or, make certain the players understand they just did something bad and feed their guilty conscience. I do both. My players have only known me a short while and never had to deal with this in prevous campaigns. It's new to them, so I give them leeway, but they know that will only last so long. At this point, now that they know swinging swords can put them in jail, they default to non-lethal unless they are certain they are in the clear. I've made it clear that if the enemy goes lethal, that is not an excuse to commit murder, too. "They started it" doesn't keep you out of the hangman's noose. Yes, that might work in Texas, but come on up to Canuckland sometime and see how well that excuse works. Not all laws are based on American style legal systems. Knowing the differences and how to apply them to your cultures can provide a distinction between regions. Ie. My Breland has a proto-Canadian-like system and my Karrnath a more Texan style. What magics are allowed are dependent on the nation. Zone of Truth is a violation of human rights in Breland, is completely allowed in Karrnath, is used only during the sentencing stage in Thrane, and allowed during the investigation stage in Aundair, but isn't admissable in the courts (can be used to find real evidence against you, but you can't be forced to testify to the jury that you did it, if the police didn't get anything except a confession).
Seth of the First Brigade 06-16-06, 12:22 AM	stembolt 05-24-06 09:53 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: The Surprise I am talking about occurs if one side is capable of seeing the other first, preventing the other side from having the opportunity to participate in a surprise round. That is a very long post. It also makes a few root suppositions that are incorrect. Probably one of the biggest misunderstandings is the importance of initiative and going first. With the exception of sneak attackers(or others who have specific benefits from flatfooted opponents), going second is not that bad a detriment. In fact it is often advantageous because your opponent typically does your maneuvering for you. Also PCs are in the driver seat in the adventure. One group of mine used to carefully scout and sneak every chance they got. That group (through their own cleverness) got the drop on 90% of the NPCs. At least two times when I said. They will never get the drop on these guys, they did. So, what should I do? Penalize them? Another group literally never even bothered to try to get the drop. They used to send the heavily armed cleric in to attract attention. Then the wizard and druid provided support while the rogue waited until all the bad guys were fighting and would sneak around to flank. What do I do with these guys? Let them get the drop even when the cleric is theatrically making noise? I also think you have an issue in your group. My guess is too little equipment or the challenges are higher than normal. If your party needs rounds of buffing for every fight that’s my thought. Does your PCs equipment match the level guidelines in the DMG? And what is the party number/level compared to the CRs of the badguys? Or do you have a large party? Scaling CR to large parties can have this result. Quote: Ok let me see if I can communicate this thought clearly. My hang up is always going to be “the way” vs. “a way” so for example the advice I gave in my first post applies to everyone, all the time. Random adventure chains is one way to adventure and it is fine, that being said it is one of the less desirable more primitive methods. And I have done it, many times. Would I do it again? Yes if my players wanted to do a campaign where they just went from adventure to adventure at their choice, sure I would. That being said, my players don’t want that. They want a little more. A building story arc. And lets be clear, the PCs do have input. When we start a campaign, I usually have several ideas for them to choose from. I also do a “back and forth” with ideas for their character (a back and forth is when I ask them for ideas about their character and give them some ideas to hear what they think). Quote: Keith kinda talked about something like this in another discussion. This quote comes from a discussion on the cause of the "Mourning" but once you read it I believe you will see how it applies. Keith’s comment applies to writing a world. In running a world, the DM always needs to know specifics, as they apply, exactly. Quote: For free citizens (as opposed to agents of a g'ment or military), it is important to provide the air of "you are choosing to be adventurers, not forced to be adventurers". I agree with the sentiment completely, however the execution can be accomplished many, many ways. Many moons ago I had a player who always had trouble with his characters motivations. He would always say “they are not offering very much money” or “why would I want to help those people” or so forth. This would tend to bog things down because 2 characters said “money, I’m in” 2 characters said “help people, I’m in” and one character said “Impresses the ladies, I’m in.” So character 6 always needed to be talked into going. Eventually I pulled the player aside. I asked him about his character and motivations. And I pointed this out to him. He had made a mercenary cyborg (needless to say not DnD) the character was build to be an adventurer. If he had not had any motivations to adventure earlier in life, he would have never had multiple unnecessary surgeries. That’s a case where the Player comes up with his motivation. Another case is a seminal campaign I played in. The DM asked us what kind of game we wanted. We talked about it and decided we wanted to play a “one city only, take over the thieves guild” game. That was it. The whole campaign. We were doing what we wanted, but it was not like we were just picking random destinations. Quote: PS: How did you keep it non-lethal out of curiosity, where the PC's not armed, or for some reason did hey just not draw their weapons? This is one of the cases where the players need to understand the game world. In my players first Eberron campaign I stuck to the basics and one of the things was the law. In Eberron you need a good reason to kill anything that’s not a monster. And even then the monster had better be doing something. That was the lesson I pressed into their heads. And given the fact that in the real world we also have laws, it is something they can usually grasp pretty easily. IRL laws work not because you get punished, but because they make sense.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-16-06, 12:23 AM	Kreistor1 05-25-06 11:13 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Also PCs are in the driver seat in the adventure. One group of mine used to carefully scout and sneak every chance they got. That group (through their own cleverness) got the drop on 90% of the NPCs. At least two times when I said. They will never get the drop on these guys, they did. So, what should I do? Penalize them? Pick up Whisper's of the Vampire's Blade. Do the PC's have any control in that adventure? No. The enemy sets the pace and location. Are the PC's on a ticking clock in the final fight, and will they lose if they rest instead of drive through the dungeon to encounter the boss? Yes, they are on that clock and if they rest they do lose. PC's are in the driver seat only when the DM allows it. If you always allow it, that's your option. I don't and neither does WotC. My PC's hit ambushes, pass through kill zones, etc. They are in desperate high speed chases through war infested streets where sneaking means they lose the villain and the evil is released. (Got big cheers for that chase... PC's loved the tension.) An early friendly encounter found the PC's walking through a forest in obviously disrupted terrain. They go sneaky and careful, looking for that fiendish abomination. Then the Wood Woad step out of the trees themselves at 5' range. They're looking for an evil aberrant corruption, and they get neutral plantmen that can stand in the middle of a tree, completely concealed, and still see the party as if the tree didn't exist. Who gets surprise? Definitely not the PC's. Sneaky only works when the DM wants it to work. If you want it to work all of the time, that's your perogative. And that is what I was talking about in the first place. When you present the kind of style I do, where a prepared enemy can prevent detection, then you must give the PC's the chance to have that control themselves.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-16-06, 12:24 AM	stembolt 05-25-06 08:18 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Pick up Whisper's of the Vampire's Blade. Do the PC's have any control in that adventure? Already got it. That happens to be a lousy adventure on a number of scales. Including how “railroady” it is. It is bad enough that I will never bother running it. So if that is your comparison, what else do you have? Quote: Sneaky only works when the DM wants it to work. Sneaky only works when the DM lets it, A “good” DM is going to let it when it should. Take the wood woad example. If the PCs sneak through the forest, the wood Woads will miss them. What are the chances that the PCs will pass the correct trees, other than DMs fiat? Also the power never says they are anything more than concealed. The PCs could conceivably hear them or the woads might not see one or more PCs.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-16-06, 12:24 AM	Kreistor1 05-25-06 09:47 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Okay, if WotC is not acceptable as an expert opinion on what consititutes an acceptable encounter, then what authority do you recognize? I honestly can't think of anyone of superior expertise than the publisher of the game system on this matter. If you casually reject their opinion, I just don't see you accepting anyone else I could possibly present. I won't bother responding to you.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-16-06, 12:25 AM	stembolt 05-25-06 11:48 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Okay, if WotC is not acceptable as an expert opinion on what consititutes an acceptable encounter, then what authority do you recognize? I don’t know, how about every other adventure published. WotVB is certainly a rare miss given that it is worse than any other adventure for 3ed I have read (come to think of it I could not name a dungeon adventure that was worse). In other words, if there is something wrong with WotVB that is your problem, not the entire structure of the surprise round. One bad adventure out of how many? Quote: I honestly can't think of anyone of superior expertise than the publisher of the game system on this matter. If you casually reject their opinion, I just don't see you accepting anyone else I could possibly present. I won't bother responding to you. I don’t casually reject their product. I reject it on objective grounds. That being said I would have to find my copy and refresh my memory to give the full run down. I don’t want to do that, why go over junk. Instead, lets talk about any other adventure. If this is a systemic problem, there must be at least one other example.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-16-06, 12:27 AM	cypher_zero 06-06-06 12:15 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cypher’s Unofficial Guide to Awesome DMing (Be forewarned: I have a tendency to ramble. I probably had a point somewhere in the rambling even if I don’t remember what it was. You have been warned.) (Note: I’m typing this without having read the rest of the posts. I do this so I don’t get my ideas jumbled up with everyone else’s. I apologize if I restate what someone else has already said, but I don’t think that’s too likely to happen.) (End of disclaimers.) How I began DMing: I’ve only been playing DnD for three years now. I’ve spent most of that time as a DM. However, it is worth noting that amongst those I’ve played with, I am considered one of the best DM’s that they (my various gaming groups) have had. When I first began playing DnD I was infuriated by how static the game was, but I’m not a nitwit, so I realized it was the DM’s fault, not an inherent problem with the game. This was after only a few gaming sessions. So I read every DnD book I could get my hands on and began DMing; 2 months after I began playing. Some might think this is stupid, but then I’d say that you don’t know me and if you did, you’d understand. How to be an awesome DM: The key is originality. I’m almost certain someone else has said it, but I’ll reiterate because it’s that important. You must be original. That’s why I like the game and why I chose to play DnD instead of one of the 8 million dungeon crawler video games out there. Like I said, when I first started playing, the game was static. Go in dungeon, kill monster, repeat 100 times, loot, lather, rinse, and repeat. I’ll be honest: I don’t like dungeons. Yes, the game is called Dungeons and Dragons. I don’t like dungeons. I use them few and far between. What I do like is for the game to be original. I don’t use pre-built adventures because someone else wrote them. I’ve played nearly every weekend for the last three years, and every time I’ve DM’d it was always something new. The crazier the better as far as I’m concerned. So how do you be original? I will say this: I have an imagination that borders on insanity. I just come up with crazy ideas and roll with them. But for some people it might seem like every good idea’s already been done. That’s because most of them have. The originality is in how you use good ideas that have already been used. (On a side note, if you’re looking for a way to spice up a game, pick up Unearthed Arcana. It’s a book full of variant rules. Use a couple that your players don’t know and then see what happens. Highly recommended.) Here’s some game-play basics that I like to use to make things interesting: Player motivation: How do you motivate your players? A lot of how players are motivated will affect the overall game-play. Most DM’s prefer to use the gold motivator, that is to say, offer the PCs a reward and they go on a quest. Everyone does this. It’s the easiest way to get your PCs to go someplace and/or do something that they wouldn’t have otherwise. So what else is there? Most PCs, even the groups Paladin won’t be motivated by a sense of goodness. Contrary to that though, if you have a group of evil PCs, they will probably do evil things just because they’re evil. So how do you get a group of good/neutral PCs to do what you want them to do without resorting to gold? It’s simple, and one of the key elements of DMing: Description and Role-Playing. DnD is an RPG, that is to say a Role-Playing Game. Make your PCs role-play. Make your Paladin do things just because he’s the good guy and he’s supposed to do good things. Here’s an example from a game I DM’d: The PCs were a group of mostly neutral characters lead by a Chaotic Good Soulknife (See Expanded Psionics Handbook). They were basically on a quest to become rich. I wanted them to hunt down a band of Orcs. So, instead of getting the guard captain to offer a reward, I lead the PCs through the burning remains of their hometown. Now here’s where the role-playing comes in: Most players don’t bother with a back-story for their characters, those that do usually leave it fairly open and devoid of major details. As a DM, I just gave them a back-story; they were from this village and these NPCs meant something to them. You start telling the PCs about this little girl that they knew and remembered for being bright and chipper got her leg chopped off, house burned down, eyes blinded and mother killed by Orcs and you (the DM) role-play the part of the little girl well enough, suddenly you’ve got 4 PCs motivated by revenge instead of gold. Mind you, they’re avenging NPCs they hadn’t even dreamed of until you told them one of them had her leg chopped off. That’s good DMing. (On a side note, the players were actually visibly upset at me for having done this to the little girl. “You BASTARD! How could you do that to a little girl!?”) Another great motivator is power. This one’s much easier to get the PC’s to go along with than the revenge one and can be just as rewarding if done right. Most PC’s motivated toward attaining power are out for one thing: Experience Points. But what about other kinds of power? What about getting your PCs to want to become a King or a noble or warlord? The one that I used was one that has been used time and again, but like I said, originality is key. The party’s leader had come across a piece of mythical armor that made him more powerful, naturally he wants the rest of it. Now as I said earlier, this particular party was led by a Chaotic Good Soulknife. He was the driving force behind avenging the little girl, and suddenly he comes across a sentient piece of armor that enhances his soulknife. Two more armor pieces later and he’s having visions of grandeur about this armor that wants him to consume souls and drink Orc blood. He’s hoping that this armor set has wings. You should have figured out that the armor’s slowly turning him evil. It’s also driving him crazy, with each new piece adding another voice to his head. Suddenly you’ve got the party’s leader (formerly motivated to avenge a little girl) discovering that his whole goal in life is to consume souls and become more powerful. He’s even shunning powerful magic items and bringing unnecessary danger to the party just to get the next piece of armor or devour a soul. (It’s worth noting that the armor would drain 200 XP per piece per day unless he consumed as many souls as there were pieces of armor that day. This guy was also one of the best role-players I’ve ever had the pleasure of DMing. Getting your Players to role-play will make the game a lot more fun. I got this guy to refer to himself in the fourth person. That is to say, he called himself We. Crazy voices in your head will do that to you. “We need SOULS!!” Funny when you think that he used to be Chaotic Good.) At one point in time he even collapsed an entire cavern on the party just so he could defeat the guy that had the next piece of armor. At another point they were fighting a bunch of undead (no souls) and he started thinking about killing off members of the party to sate his need for souls. He ultimately ended up butchering a town and harvesting their souls (and if you don’t think I used that as a plot device to have them hounded by every good-aligned organization I could think of then you’re crazy). Try using motivators other than gold to get your party going. It’ll make things much more interesting. Last example: A friend of mine likes to make the PCs have visions of the future to get them to do stuff. Role-Playing: Another game fundamental that is often over-looked is the actual act of Role-Playing. Get your characters to role-play. A lot of people, especially newer players, think that “pretending” is, if nothing else, weird. A lot of them are afraid to “get into” their character simply because if they do, someone might see them and think they’re weird. It may sound stupid, but that’s the truth of it, even if they themselves don’t realize it. So how do you get them to role-play? The easiest way for you to get them to do it is to do it yourself. Most good DMs, at least from my experience, have a fairly forward personality and are usually pretty charismatic. These people make good DMs because of this. As the DM you are also there to lead them. You start doing it, odds are, they will too. There are also poor ways of getting your players to role-play. One DM I knew used to say that everything you said was in character unless you held your pencil aloft to indicate that it was out-of-game. In my opinion, that’s just plain stupid. It’s really easy to forget something like that or drop your pencil, lose it, just say, “I have to got to the bathroom,” etc. It’s just poor DMing. Characters don’t just randomly say, “Pass the cheesy puffs,” mid-battle with a dragon, so why would you force it on them? This may sound dumb as all heck, but I’ve seen it done. Story: Every campaign needs a story. In my opinion, if you were to tell someone about what’s going on your campaign it should come off sounding like something out of an action-thriller movie or book (a good one mind you), or perhaps a creepy horror movie (those campaigns are fun too). A good story can make or break a campaign, but here’s the catch: it has to be driven by your players. Heck, they don’t even need to know the full extent of all the plots surrounding them, or who’s really behind the crazy wizard as long as their actions are what keeps the plot moving, not something you’re doing as the DM. Mind you, it all has to make sense to the players when it comes to a close otherwise you’ve failed at telling a good story and your campaign ends up like a B movie (not a big B movie fan, but I’ve seen enough of them to tell you that most don’t make sense by the end.). House Rules: I love house rules. There are several that I use on a constant basis and using the right one’s will really help you’re campaign stand out. One of my favorite rules is Called Shots. It’s not an official rule, but I found it in a D20 book (non-WotC) and I use it all the time. The basic concept is that players should be able to target certain areas of an enemy’s body to do certain effects. i.e. break someone’s neck to kill them instantly. I could get into the specifics of it, but I won’t cause that’s not the point of what I was trying to iterate here. What I’m saying is that using a few house rules can help to set your game apart from someone else’s and make your players remember things because of them. Certain house rules can also be used to help the characters fight something that they might otherwise not survive. I don’t expect a 3rd level party to defeat a red dragon, but if one of them is smart enough to shoot the dragon in the eye, he’ll leave them alone for the time being (and nurse a grudge against the party ultimately making for a plot device as to why the dragon is behind all the assassination attempts against them later on.) That’s all I’ve got for tonight. I’ll post more stuff later.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-16-06, 12:30 AM	stembolt 06-06-06 01:10 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- My prediction is that in ten or so years cipher_zero will actually be a good DM, provided he sticks with it. Until then I advise him to listen more often then speaking. To a large degree I was like him 15 or so years ago. I was the best DM my (totally inexperienced) players ever had. I was only DMing for a few years. I thought I was awesome. “The key is originality. I’m almost certain someone else has said it, but I’ll reiterate because it’s that important.” This is important. To completely forget about. Do not worry about being original. Worry about being a good DM and running a good adventure.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-16-06, 12:30 AM	TarlSS 06-06-06 01:22 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A note on stories, most novels don't make good adventures, the same is true in reverse. In English literature at least, fantastic adventures tend to be on the lower rung of the pecking order. The Count of Monte Cristo, Heart of Darkness, Dracula, the Three Musketeers...While classics, they aren't exactly at the top of any sort of academic reading lists. Lord of the Rings, the penultimate fantasy novels, barely qualifies according to most academics. Everyone on this board along with me would probably disagree. However it does illustrate that there is a line between writing a story and uhm, DMing one. You would never expect a James Joyce story to be a good adventure, similiarly realize that a good adventure doesn't mean you should expect to read like a good novel.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-16-06, 12:32 AM	cypher_zero 06-06-06 09:25 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Originally Posted by stembolt My prediction is that in ten or so years cypher_zero will actually be a good DM, provided he sticks with it. Until then I advise him to listen more often then speaking. To a large degree I was like him 15 or so years ago. I was the best DM my (totally inexperienced) players ever had. I was only DMing for a few years. I thought I was awesome. “The key is originality. I’m almost certain someone else has said it, but I’ll reiterate because it’s that important.” This is important. To completely forget about. Do not worry about being original. Worry about being a good DM and running a good adventure. You'll have to excuse me for saying so, but I think you're a little mistaken. I don't think I'm awesome, merely good and only because people just tell me so. And I may have only been playing for three years, but I'm a quick learner and I play with some very experienced players. The fact that for the last 6 months I've had 14 hour gaming sessions every weekend also helps. Like I said, you don't know me, have never played with me, and likely never will, so I would think that it's kind of hard for you to make an accurate judgment about my capabilities as a DM. I've spent a considerable amount of time (and money on books) to become as good as I am. You are also say that your players, who were totally inexperienced, thought you were the best DM they'd ever had. I've played with inexperienced players, but I've also played with players that were twice my age and had been playing since before I was born. These are the ones that say I'm good. Inexperienced players usually can't tell a good DM from a rat's behind so taking what one of them says to heart is kind of stupid, regardless of how sincere they are. You sound like one of the players I had once. He was very skeptical about someone as "inexperienced" as I am DMing but by the time the adventure was over he conceded that it was one of the better ones he'd played. If you're ever in Rochester NY we'll play a game. My point as far as originality goes is not so much that every adventure that you make has to be unique to you and has to include never before seen stuff, etc. You can be just as original using a pre-fab campaign. It's the way you DM it that makes the game original. Actually, originality is probably a poor choice of words. Perhaps unique would work better for what I'm trying to convey here. All I'm really trying to say here is that you as a DM should never let things become stagnant and/or repetitive. Go in dungeon, kill monsters, loot, go back to town, repeat. Even if the monsters get harder, the dungeons get longer, the traps more deadly, the gold more shiny, it’s still the same thing over again. What fun is that? My campaigns start out with the party hunting down orgs, only to be chased by ogres then seiged by undead to assassinating the king. Each individual part ties into the overall story and never becomes repetitive. That’s what I’m talking about. I apologize if I didn’t manage to convey my point correctly. Another aspect of what I was talking about with originality is to try and do things that other DMs haven’t done. You get a group of experienced players together and they’ve seen just about all there is to see. And then some. How do you show them something new? That’s what I’m talking about. Go use pre-fab adventures all you want, but make them unique to you. The last bit is a unique DMing style. This is probably both the easiest and hardest thing to do because every DM’s going to do something at least a little different from another, but is it just a different house rule, or the actual way you present the game? Quote: Originally Posted by TarlSS A note on stories, most novels don't make good adventures, the same is true in reverse. In English literature at least, fantastic adventures tend to be on the lower rung of the pecking order. The Count of Monte Cristo, Heart of Darkness, Dracula, the Three Musketeers...While classics, they aren't exactly at the top of any sort of academic reading lists. Lord of the Rings, the penultimate fantasy novels, barely qualifies according to most academics. Everyone on this board along with me would probably disagree. However it does illustrate that there is a line between writing a story and uhm, DMing one. You would never expect a James Joyce story to be a good adventure, similarly realize that a good adventure doesn't mean you should expect to read like a good novel. You are all too right about that. What I meant with the reference to action/adventure novels was that a campaign should keep you on the edge of your seat constantly wanting to know what’s going to happen next and loathing to tear away from it when you finally have to. Sure there’s going to be a few lulls, but they should be after the final battle of the adventure, when you’ve just killed the powerful Sorcerer and you’re heading back to town to sell the loot; or you finally get away from the bounty hunter that wants to cash in the price on your head(s), or kill him as the case may be. As far as the story goes IN MY OPINION, it’s essential. Otherwise it’s just bunch of quests one right after the other. Its much more fun to have your PCs next adventure start because they found out that the person that killed the mayor was just a puppet and now they have to go after the real culprit.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-16-06, 12:33 AM	stembolt 06-06-06 10:34 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: You'll have to excuse me for saying so, but I think you're a little mistaken. I don't think I'm awesome, merely good and only because people just tell me so. Well, lets put it this way. The advice you gave was amateurish and misguided. If that’s how you actually DM, you are not very good. You have the passion though and that counts for quite a bit.
Seth of the First Brigade 06-16-06, 12:35 AM	Phaseroth 06-06-06 10:36 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Originally Posted by Kreistor1 d) Don't trivialize a character early in the episode. For instance, Strength damage on a Fighter in the first room of a huge dungeon makes the Fighter useless right off the bat, unless the party has the resources to repair the damage. He now has to survive a series of fights in which he can't hurt anything (ie. can't perform his primary function) Quote: c) Use all the combat rules. Sunder, Overrun, Bull Rush, Trip, Grapple... they all have good uses. If you throw in too many grapplers, because you think it's the most powerful of the bunch, the game becomes monotonic and bland. Too many with Imp Grapple, Swallow Whole, or other annoyances also get on the players' nerves. I think I would enjoy playing in your campaigns. The DM in my last group just drove me nuts! I was playing a dwarven fighter in a 7th-8th-level party that also included an elven ranger, an elven druid and a gnome bard. As the front line melee member of the party, I naturally stepped up to the monsters and attacked ... and was promptly grappled almost every single time by monsters with grapple check results in the 30s. This was usually followed by the two-weapon-fighting ranger coming in and killing the monster in one round (thanks to both the player and the DM misinterpreting the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Cleave feats, the ranger had way too many attacks, and I think a 7th-level ranger shouldn't have +3 weapons). When fighting enemies without good grapple checks, my fighter instead got stunned a lot (hold person, mind flayer mindblasts, etc), and spent several encounters standing there drooling while the too-many-attacks ranger slaughtered everything in sight. Of course, none of this was helped by a bard who consistently used his first turn to Hide instead of Inspire Competence and a druid whose entire repertoire was apparently limited to flaming sphere and call lightning, with neither spell being very useful when the party's fighter is being freaking grappled by the spell's target! :mad: Had this situation continued, I was planning to have my fighter start fleeing like a little girl at the first sniff of an EL higher than the party level. (The DM was using published adventures, and I believe they were too high-level for the party ... no wait, scratch that. I see The Speaker in Dreams was a 5th-level adventure. But for some reason it was kicking our ass. How could that be?) I'm glad for this thread, because I intend to get the game restarted with myself as DM (half of the previous group, a married couple, moved to Idaho which left just me and the DM, so I haven't gotten to play in a couple months.) The Age of Worms adventure path in Dungeon looks really good, so I'm going to take a crack at that as soon as I can get a couple more players lined up.
cypher_zero 06-17-06, 08:54 AM	Good to see the post has reopened. It was a good thread before... In that regard, perhaps we should exclude some of the latter posts... .