Members of dragon marked houses can't own land? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Members of dragon marked houses can't own land? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Vrellum
06-26-06, 10:51 AM According to the EPHb, anyway.

So what do you think that means? Some of the options are: Who is a member of a dragon marked house? Everyone with a dragon mark? Everyone that can trace their lineage back to a someone with a dragon mark? Everyone that is employeed by a dragon marked house?

Any ideas?
Daemion
06-26-06, 12:03 PM IIRC, the Houses have special deals with the government that allows them to basically rent the land they have property on.

As for who counts as a member of a dargonmarked House? Well, I'd say anyone whose last name starts with a d' :)

I wouldn't think that Ol' Bob the gardener would be considered a member, but Sally d'Cannith, famed paper-pusher extraordinaire would.
Tyryt
06-26-06, 12:06 PM Members of the House are those who have the name "Orien" or "d'Orien", etc. The reason they arn't allowed to own land, is because members of a House (as opposed to their employees) owe much more alleigience to their House than to where-ever they are living and are, in effect, nations of themselves. Since no nation really wants another nation to own parts of it, the House members arn't allowed to own any land, the House itself leasing land from the nations for it's work, like modern a embassy. This is also why most members of the Houses are usually not delt with by the local authorities, but turned over to their House for any criminal issues.

This has a backlash in that those individuals with a mark that refuse or renounce their House are usually delt with rather harshly, but at the same time are sought after by those who wish to harness some of that power, and hunted for by extreemists in the House to protect that power. It should be very difficult to play a d'marked character that is not a member of a House, at least if the mark is visible and/or used publically.
(Psi)SeveredHead
06-26-06, 02:32 PM In some medieval societies, only nobles could own land. In practice, very wealthy people and organizations (like Dragonmarked Houses, Morgrave University, etc) could also own land. The DHs are powerful enough that the government restricts them. (Are they restricted only in former Galifar, or also among the gnomes, elves and dwarves?)

It should be very difficult to play a d'marked character that is not a member of a House, at least if the mark is visible and/or used publically.

Probably one reason why Dragonmarked PCs are so rare. Being a member of the House makes it difficult to be an adventurer (for the benefit of a feat or two you have all these obligations that aren't clearly defined); not being a member of a House makes it difficult to be an adventurer, at least at the lower levels when you can't annihilate extremist squads by yourself and hardly anyone knows who you are so there's no social protection either.
ArcTan
06-27-06, 03:23 AM Probably one reason why Dragonmarked PCs are so rare. Being a member of the House makes it difficult to be an adventurer (for the benefit of a feat or two you have all these obligations that aren't clearly defined); not being a member of a House makes it difficult to be an adventurer, at least at the lower levels when you can't annihilate extremist squads by yourself and hardly anyone knows who you are so there's no social protection either.

Well, it's difficult for everyone to be an adventurer at low levels, kind of by definition.

But you don't need to be a full-fledged member of a Dragonmarked House in order to have some measure of social protection and notoriety. You can work for any number of different organizations, including working *for* a Dragonmark without being one of the House's family members, which describes the vast majority of any House's operatives and workers. Most Deneith warriors are not scions of the House's ruling line (d'Deneiths) or lesser members of the family (Deneiths) but just ordinary folk being paid to be bodyguards and mercenaries under the House's aegis, with surnames like Carpenter or Jameson or Smrslyak or what have you.
Loki5654
06-27-06, 04:02 AM ...with surnames like Carpenter or Jameson or Smrslyak or what have you.

"And when this battle is fought and won, and you return to your homes and cities, tell them of the great leader who gave his life for your victory! Tell them the tale of Ed Smrslyak!"

-Lieutenant Thomas Carpenter's "The Charge of Smrslyak's Brigade", Act III, Scene IV
(Psi)SeveredHead
06-27-06, 10:45 AM Well, it's difficult for everyone to be an adventurer at low levels, kind of by definition.

But you don't need to be a full-fledged member of a Dragonmarked House in order to have some measure of social protection and notoriety. You can work for any number of different organizations, including working *for* a Dragonmark without being one of the House's family members, which describes the vast majority of any House's operatives and workers. Most Deneith warriors are not scions of the House's ruling line (d'Deneiths) or lesser members of the family (Deneiths) but just ordinary folk being paid to be bodyguards and mercenaries under the House's aegis, with surnames like Carpenter or Jameson or Smrslyak or what have you.

Not what I meant. I'm assuming the character in question has the actual dragonmark (a d'Deneith, for instance). That only costs a feat, but there are unclear obligations attached.
Crystalforged
06-29-06, 01:05 AM I don't feel like going back to check the exact wording right now but I think the point of the law, rather than to stop individual members of the house from owning property (I would allow them to but property in my game), but rather to stop the house itself from gaining a large portion of land, enough say to become it's own country. Of course I could be remembering this completely wrong but I'm too lazy to check right now.
Errant
06-29-06, 03:50 AM From EPHB: "The so-called edicts of Korth forbid any member of a dragonmarked house from holding a grant of land, and place limits on the size of house enclaves and the armed forces that can be garrisoned at an enclave".

Seems pretty clear individual house members can't hold land but beyond that you can probably make it up as you go. Is the "limit" that no enclave can house more than 100 people? That they can't hold more than 1 square mile of land in any 100 square mile area? Does it vary house by house, enclave by enclave? Are they allowed different kinds/sizes of enclaves? Likewise, is the rent paid in gold or in services or as a standing discount for crown purchases?

As others have said what constitutes a house member is fuzzy too. I too think its at least anyone who's surname starts with d', assuming excoriates are stripped of their right to use the surname when they are cast out. I seem to recall thinking there can be other family names within a house too though that may or may not be used in combination with the house-name. For instance Edric Valaen d'Orien might be known as Edric Valaen within the house or Edric d'Orien outside it, so it may not be clear whether an individual is a "member" of a house or not just an employee judging solely by the name they use.

I think there's ample wiggle room for a DM to fine tune the details suit their individual campaign without contradicting canon.

I would suggest anyone claiming the membership of a dragonmark house that isn't denied by the house would be considered a "member" and commonly members would use the house surname at least some of the time. This would presumably provide some protection from summary local laws and the right to housing and/or some level of support - as long as the individual stayed on the house's good side.

When it comes to employees vs members I imagine it gets pretty fuzzy at times. Talented employees may be allowed to marry into the house to grant them some protection from local law etc and to deepen their commitment to the house. What about the talented employees' families though? There are probably many land-owning individuals around Khorvaire who as so closely employed by or allied to the dragonmarked houses that they are members in all but name.

Another question arises though: since the house doesn't own their land/property, what rights of entry do representatives of the crown have? Its bound to be politically sensitive (since ******* off the house lord today can result in restrictions on essential services tomorrow), but can agents of the crown demand and force entry in pursuit of offenders wanted for capital crimes etc? IMC I'd say they can demand entry, in extremis, but it rarely happens in practice and generally involves someone of at least baronial rank getting called in. As a result fugitives seeking sanctuary in a dragonmarked house for a serious crime are usually handed over to the local authority and they end up antagonising both the house leaders AND the local rulers.

Just my 2c worth of course.
Vrellum
06-29-06, 09:30 AM Thanks for all the replies. I guess one that has confused me is how does someone get the name, like d'orien? For example, I was under the impression that there are many surnames under a house so someone could be Bob Smith d'Orien. I would assume that Bob is a member of house Orien but some of his relatives might not be. Is there any info anywhere on how someone gets to add a house name to their name?

Or what happens when a house member marries someone from outside the house? Can the spouse own property, what about the children?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Vrellum 06-26-06, 10:51 AM	According to the EPHb, anyway. So what do you think that means? Some of the options are: Who is a member of a dragon marked house? Everyone with a dragon mark? Everyone that can trace their lineage back to a someone with a dragon mark? Everyone that is employeed by a dragon marked house? Any ideas?
Daemion 06-26-06, 12:03 PM	IIRC, the Houses have special deals with the government that allows them to basically rent the land they have property on. As for who counts as a member of a dargonmarked House? Well, I'd say anyone whose last name starts with a d' :) I wouldn't think that Ol' Bob the gardener would be considered a member, but Sally d'Cannith, famed paper-pusher extraordinaire would.
Tyryt 06-26-06, 12:06 PM	Members of the House are those who have the name "Orien" or "d'Orien", etc. The reason they arn't allowed to own land, is because members of a House (as opposed to their employees) owe much more alleigience to their House than to where-ever they are living and are, in effect, nations of themselves. Since no nation really wants another nation to own parts of it, the House members arn't allowed to own any land, the House itself leasing land from the nations for it's work, like modern a embassy. This is also why most members of the Houses are usually not delt with by the local authorities, but turned over to their House for any criminal issues. This has a backlash in that those individuals with a mark that refuse or renounce their House are usually delt with rather harshly, but at the same time are sought after by those who wish to harness some of that power, and hunted for by extreemists in the House to protect that power. It should be very difficult to play a d'marked character that is not a member of a House, at least if the mark is visible and/or used publically.
(Psi)SeveredHead 06-26-06, 02:32 PM	In some medieval societies, only nobles could own land. In practice, very wealthy people and organizations (like Dragonmarked Houses, Morgrave University, etc) could also own land. The DHs are powerful enough that the government restricts them. (Are they restricted only in former Galifar, or also among the gnomes, elves and dwarves?) It should be very difficult to play a d'marked character that is not a member of a House, at least if the mark is visible and/or used publically. Probably one reason why Dragonmarked PCs are so rare. Being a member of the House makes it difficult to be an adventurer (for the benefit of a feat or two you have all these obligations that aren't clearly defined); not being a member of a House makes it difficult to be an adventurer, at least at the lower levels when you can't annihilate extremist squads by yourself and hardly anyone knows who you are so there's no social protection either.
ArcTan 06-27-06, 03:23 AM	Probably one reason why Dragonmarked PCs are so rare. Being a member of the House makes it difficult to be an adventurer (for the benefit of a feat or two you have all these obligations that aren't clearly defined); not being a member of a House makes it difficult to be an adventurer, at least at the lower levels when you can't annihilate extremist squads by yourself and hardly anyone knows who you are so there's no social protection either. Well, it's difficult for everyone to be an adventurer at low levels, kind of by definition. But you don't need to be a full-fledged member of a Dragonmarked House in order to have some measure of social protection and notoriety. You can work for any number of different organizations, including working for a Dragonmark without being one of the House's family members, which describes the vast majority of any House's operatives and workers. Most Deneith warriors are not scions of the House's ruling line (d'Deneiths) or lesser members of the family (Deneiths) but just ordinary folk being paid to be bodyguards and mercenaries under the House's aegis, with surnames like Carpenter or Jameson or Smrslyak or what have you.
Loki5654 06-27-06, 04:02 AM	...with surnames like Carpenter or Jameson or Smrslyak or what have you. "And when this battle is fought and won, and you return to your homes and cities, tell them of the great leader who gave his life for your victory! Tell them the tale of Ed Smrslyak!" -Lieutenant Thomas Carpenter's "The Charge of Smrslyak's Brigade", Act III, Scene IV
(Psi)SeveredHead 06-27-06, 10:45 AM	Well, it's difficult for everyone to be an adventurer at low levels, kind of by definition. But you don't need to be a full-fledged member of a Dragonmarked House in order to have some measure of social protection and notoriety. You can work for any number of different organizations, including working for a Dragonmark without being one of the House's family members, which describes the vast majority of any House's operatives and workers. Most Deneith warriors are not scions of the House's ruling line (d'Deneiths) or lesser members of the family (Deneiths) but just ordinary folk being paid to be bodyguards and mercenaries under the House's aegis, with surnames like Carpenter or Jameson or Smrslyak or what have you. Not what I meant. I'm assuming the character in question has the actual dragonmark (a d'Deneith, for instance). That only costs a feat, but there are unclear obligations attached.
Crystalforged 06-29-06, 01:05 AM	I don't feel like going back to check the exact wording right now but I think the point of the law, rather than to stop individual members of the house from owning property (I would allow them to but property in my game), but rather to stop the house itself from gaining a large portion of land, enough say to become it's own country. Of course I could be remembering this completely wrong but I'm too lazy to check right now.
Errant 06-29-06, 03:50 AM	From EPHB: "The so-called edicts of Korth forbid any member of a dragonmarked house from holding a grant of land, and place limits on the size of house enclaves and the armed forces that can be garrisoned at an enclave". Seems pretty clear individual house members can't hold land but beyond that you can probably make it up as you go. Is the "limit" that no enclave can house more than 100 people? That they can't hold more than 1 square mile of land in any 100 square mile area? Does it vary house by house, enclave by enclave? Are they allowed different kinds/sizes of enclaves? Likewise, is the rent paid in gold or in services or as a standing discount for crown purchases? As others have said what constitutes a house member is fuzzy too. I too think its at least anyone who's surname starts with d', assuming excoriates are stripped of their right to use the surname when they are cast out. I seem to recall thinking there can be other family names within a house too though that may or may not be used in combination with the house-name. For instance Edric Valaen d'Orien might be known as Edric Valaen within the house or Edric d'Orien outside it, so it may not be clear whether an individual is a "member" of a house or not just an employee judging solely by the name they use. I think there's ample wiggle room for a DM to fine tune the details suit their individual campaign without contradicting canon. I would suggest anyone claiming the membership of a dragonmark house that isn't denied by the house would be considered a "member" and commonly members would use the house surname at least some of the time. This would presumably provide some protection from summary local laws and the right to housing and/or some level of support - as long as the individual stayed on the house's good side. When it comes to employees vs members I imagine it gets pretty fuzzy at times. Talented employees may be allowed to marry into the house to grant them some protection from local law etc and to deepen their commitment to the house. What about the talented employees' families though? There are probably many land-owning individuals around Khorvaire who as so closely employed by or allied to the dragonmarked houses that they are members in all but name. Another question arises though: since the house doesn't own their land/property, what rights of entry do representatives of the crown have? Its bound to be politically sensitive (since ******* off the house lord today can result in restrictions on essential services tomorrow), but can agents of the crown demand and force entry in pursuit of offenders wanted for capital crimes etc? IMC I'd say they can demand entry, in extremis, but it rarely happens in practice and generally involves someone of at least baronial rank getting called in. As a result fugitives seeking sanctuary in a dragonmarked house for a serious crime are usually handed over to the local authority and they end up antagonising both the house leaders AND the local rulers. Just my 2c worth of course.
Vrellum 06-29-06, 09:30 AM	Thanks for all the replies. I guess one that has confused me is how does someone get the name, like d'orien? For example, I was under the impression that there are many surnames under a house so someone could be Bob Smith d'Orien. I would assume that Bob is a member of house Orien but some of his relatives might not be. Is there any info anywhere on how someone gets to add a house name to their name? Or what happens when a house member marries someone from outside the house? Can the spouse own property, what about the children?