Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Edymnion 12-14-04, 06:09 PM	Was going over the entry for House Cannith, and looking at the three heads of the house. One is LN, one is NE, and Merrix d'Cannith himself is Lawful Evil. Is it just me, or did anybody else get the impression that he was more of a Chaotic Neutral?
jonthegm 12-14-04, 06:22 PM	Was going over the entry for House Cannith, and looking at the three heads of the house. One is LN, one is NE, and Merrix d'Cannith himself is Lawful Evil. Is it just me, or did anybody else get the impression that he was more of a Chaotic Neutral? Not really, he's VERY devoted to his work, and probably VERY devoted to his house. These familial ties go a long way in my book to making someone Lawful. He probably has a very healthy respect for the chain of command (mainly because he's nominally on top of it). I see him as more methodical and driven than random and observing. He's an engineer, not an artist.
Edymnion 12-14-04, 06:25 PM	Who is, of course, flagrantly violating one of the highest laws of the land for his own sense of curiosity. One that could get him beheaded if anybody finds out about it. Not exactly a very lawful approach.
jonthegm 12-14-04, 06:37 PM	Who is, of course, flagrantly violating one of the highest laws of the land for his own sense of curiosity. One that could get him beheaded if anybody finds out about it. Not exactly a very lawful approach. Meh, the houses consider themselves to be outside of the whole "nation" gig anyway. He probably rationalizes it as House Cannith being "above the law".
Beleriphon 12-14-04, 06:43 PM	Who is, of course, flagrantly violating one of the highest laws of the land for his own sense of curiosity. One that could get him beheaded if anybody finds out about it. Not exactly a very lawful approach. I see Merrith as being sort of a Godfather like figure. He may be committing a criminal act, but he's also all about keeping his word and what not. I can also see him helping any warforged, for a price of course.
Edymnion 12-14-04, 06:45 PM	Meh, the houses consider themselves to be outside of the whole "nation" gig anyway. He probably rationalizes it as House Cannith being "above the law".Ah, but considering yourself above the law, or that the law does not apply to you, are hallmarks of a Chaotic alignment. Reason I say I pegged him as Chaotic Neutral: Chaotic: He sees himself as being above the laws that govern everyone else, as evidenced by the fact he's still running his Creation Forge. Neutral: While not a champion of good in any shape form and fashion, I don't really see him as the "step on anyone that gets in my way" type either. He watches out for him and his, and thats it, but doesn't go out of his way to be cruel or otherwise evil. Maybe I'm just seeing him wrong?
Hellcow 12-14-04, 06:47 PM	Meh, the houses consider themselves to be outside of the whole "nation" gig anyway. He probably rationalizes it as House Cannith being "above the law". Precisely. The Dragonmarked houses are extranational, and the laws of Galifar are not his concern (check out "Death at Whitehearth" for an example of this). The fact that he is willing to continue to do something the the Treaty of Thronehold has declared to be unethical and dangerous simply plays to the "evil" part - he's doing what he wishes to do regardless of the consequences to others. However, he is concerned with maintaining order within his house and values structure and discipline over all. If you're in his enclave, than by Onatar you'd better do as he says! As it stands, there is no one in Cannith who can dictate to him - but he earned his position following the traditions of the house, and if he was challenged by those traditions, he would respect the challenge. It's important to understand that lawful doesn't mean "obey the laws of the land you're in" as much as "Value your traditions, respect order as a concept, and obey the laws that apply to you." If a paladin ends up at a sahuagin feast, and the local law is that one of the guests is served as the main course, is he bound to follow this law? On this note, lawful evil is also often presented as the being who will twist the law to serve his own ends - using the law as a weapon to accomplish selfish goals, instead of as a shield to defend the innocent. But, as always, the key is to remember that in Eberron alignments are less clear cut. An evil man may do good things for the warforged, if it suits his purposes; a good man may do bad things, unknowingly or because it serves a greater good. The fact that he's creating warforged and letting them loose may seem chaotic, but on the other hand, it may also be part of a greater plan. At the least, in creating new warforged he is advancing his own knowledge; he's not just doing it because he has nothing better to do. Again, I'd look to the director in Death at Whitehearth to get a sense of ideas that may be going through Merrix's mind.
jonthegm 12-14-04, 06:51 PM	Ah, but considering yourself above the law, or that the law does not apply to you, are hallmarks of a Chaotic alignment. Reason I say I pegged him as Chaotic Neutral: Chaotic: He sees himself as being above the laws that govern everyone else, as evidenced by the fact he's still running his Creation Forge. Neutral: While not a champion of good in any shape form and fashion, I don't really see him as the "step on anyone that gets in my way" type either. He watches out for him and his, and thats it, but doesn't go out of his way to be cruel or otherwise evil. Maybe I'm just seeing him wrong? As I see it, and Bel said above, he considers himself above the COMMON law, but slave to a higher code of ethics and his house. The main difference is that while he breaks the Thronehold accords, he does so for some very specific reasons, not because he feels like it. It's more that he's weighed his competing loyalties and found House Cannith and his own power to be the more acceptable bond. This is also how I peg him as evil. He doesn't care what the normal law is, he has his own law to follow... one that doesn't mind poison and the sacrifice of innocents in pursuit of a goal. He's far too methodical to be truly chaotic and too cold to be neutral (on the good/evil scale). *EDIT* Heh, beaten by Hellcow! *END EDIT*
BuckarooBonzai 12-14-04, 07:11 PM	Who is, of course, flagrantly violating one of the highest laws of the land for his own sense of curiosity. One that could get him beheaded if anybody finds out about it. Not exactly a very lawful approach. Well, yes, hence the evil. Are you saying that lawful evil characters shouldn't break laws? What if a devil is visiting Sharn, does his lawfulness extend to obeying the Laws of the Land he is in (and not kill anbody because its against the rules), or only the Laws of the Land of his own plane? ;) Umm... I have some more to say on the subject. Alignment is one of the more difficult concepts to deal with in D&D...I'll get back in a bit.
Edymnion 12-14-04, 07:16 PM	Well, yes, hence the evil.Well, one thing we have to remember is that Good and Evil are totally seperate from Law and Chaos. Running around, breaking the rules, rubbing people's noses in it, thats Chaotic, Good and Evil never come into the equation there. But yeah, I guess I can see him as Lawful within his own House structure. I still question Evil. Lawful Neutral maybe.
Brianish 12-14-04, 07:21 PM	He's listed at one point as TN. But two seperate places say LE. So LE it is. Someone here equated him roughly to a godfather type, helping warforged but expecting something in return. I liked the idea muchos.
m15a 12-14-04, 07:24 PM	Well, one thing we have to remember is that Good and Evil are totally seperate from Law and Chaos. Running around, breaking the rules, rubbing people's noses in it, thats Chaotic, Good and Evil never come into the equation there. But yeah, I guess I can see him as Lawful within his own House structure. I still question Evil. Lawful Neutral maybe. i agree. the question (regarding whether he's evil or neutral) isn't whether breaking the law could have him beheaded, but rather whether breaking the law could be harmful to others (in general).
Hellcow 12-14-04, 07:26 PM	Someone here equated him roughly to a godfather type, helping warforged but expecting something in return. I think that this is a fair assessment. The point is that he is capable of acting ruthlessly and without remorse to get what he desires. Get in his way and he may send custom-built warforged assassins after you. This doesn't mean that the public sees this side of him very often; he is a respected figure and has done a great deal to help with the reconstruction of Breland in the wake of the war. But he's certainly gathering favors - and you don't want to see what he'll do when he gets mad.
Bluebrush 12-14-04, 07:36 PM	I see Merrix's building of the warforged as being a matter of scientific curiousity. He can build actual lives! Imagine how that would feel, if you could create thinking beings with souls. (The Sims doesn't really count, and hasn't been invented yet.) I imagine Merrix just can't resist exploring the possibilities offered. Depending on how evil the GM wants to play him as, I could see him as being uncaring but curious towards the warforged. What happens if I send this being out into the world with a hundred Galifars, wits keen as razors but no memories at all? Can I design a truly noble soul on the drawing board? Can I identify the exact qualities of the greatest of leaders? Merrix is ideally placed to do this. What will he learn? How far will he go? Of course there is more to Merrix. He is, after all, one of the most powerful men on the continent and he has a lot to do each day. Perhaps he's a ruthless buisnessman, maybe he's cruel to his lower underlings or maybe he kicks puppies. There's more to life than the most directly interesting parts.
BuckarooBonzai 12-14-04, 07:50 PM	Endymion: Point Taken Did anybody else notice that only 3 of the house heads are chaotic? This makes sense to me because I see the Houses as the Big Corporations of Eberron, though how far that analogy extends depends on the house. Business organizations on international levels don't generally benefit from chaotic characters...unlike evil chaotic cults and the like the houses have to (at least nominally) respect the laws of each nation. And more importantly, business (and these are businesses) requires that you be: 1) Consistent(the quality of your goods or services, in the timely delivery of said goods, in your ability to do all of the above over an extended period of time) 2) Impartiality(you have to accept most people who walk through your door looking for your business, you can't randomly pick and choose unless you have a very good reason, and provide them all with similar quality goods and services)***Or at least make a very good show of it!* 3) A great deal of organization. Planning ahead, looking at cost/profit, keeping track of current events in all the vast regions you operate(plague, war, draught, rebellion) and analyzing how it will affect your bottom line. ***Not that Chaotic people can't do any this, just that lawful or neutral individuals will tend to have personalities that mesh with this, and over time these peopel will tend towards the top. A lawful person may arrive late with a shipment. An lawful person will tend to appologize, make restitution, say that it won't happen again, then take steps to see that it doesn't. A Chaotic person just might tell the customer to deal with it. Or he might apologize. He might mean it, or he might think the customer has an abberation up his but. He might make restitution or he might say tough luck. he might say it won't happen again, but I think chaotic characters are less inclined to consider their word their bond. I guess mainly my point is that on larger business scales, leaders would definitely tend toward lawful. He made a great independant businessman, but I don't think Han Solo(Chaotic, to me) could ever have run an intergalactic shipping buisness. And the 3 house leaders who ARE chaotic? One is intentionally trying to stay close to and not lose touch with the wild tribal nature of his people, and keeps his base of operations in the talenta plains.Ghallanda The other two, Tharashk and Vadalis, also come from primarily wilderness areas that are swarming (relatively) with rangers and druids, and whose members could concievably tend more towards chaotic than lawful. And the Chaotic Tharashk leader is only one of three, the other two are neutral. I guess I am implying here that Tharashk and Gallanda could tend away from lawful because of their tribal heritage, and its immediacy in both of their operations. I think this works because I see both tribal traditions as chaotic. But I once got into a fight with a player who was angry that his Chaos affecting spell, whatever it was, didn't work on the tribal "primitives" he was fighting because they were lawful. He insisted that any sort of nomadic, tribal people living in the jungle could'nt possibly be lawful. I disagreed. I think that Lawful=civilization chaotic=wilderness is kind of a trap, because its usually right, but not always.
Brastan 12-14-04, 08:53 PM	Its a question of what law he is following. Like a Paladin who has his own code of conduct will probably not tolerate the "Laws" of an evil dictator. His own code of conduct and personal beliefs (at religious teachings) come before local laws, especially when the conflict with his views. As long as he remains true to his principles and does not waver he retains his paladin status. This also applies to a Monk particularly evil ones. They fallow their own rigid principles. "We're going to play by the rules— my rules." Lawful Evil from The Complete Book of Villains(which should be reprinted IMO) "Laws are for people who need them." CN same book Which best describes Merrix?
Thyrwyn 12-15-04, 04:49 AM	Lawful has nothing to do with "the law"; it has to do with authority. The great houses are not beholden to any one nation; maybe he simply does not recognize the authority of the Treaty of Thronehold. I don't remember, but were the Houses party to that agreement? did representatives of each house sign, too - or was it just the nations? "Who do these 'nations' think they are to tell us 'do' or 'do not'? Restrict the enterprise of Cannith, but not of Deneith - by what right, I ask you, what right? Are we not the House of Making? What else would they have us do. . . "
Josh Wilhoyte 12-15-04, 05:45 PM	SRD: Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties. Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it. “Law” implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should. “Chaos” implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them. While a Lawful character may respect and obey authority, who has authority over the head of House Cannith? It's very similar to beign Head of State. He is responsible to his own house, and little else. I think we will find that House Cannith was not a signatory of the Treaty of Thronehold. Despite the word "law" in Lawful, it does not have to mean "will always follow the law." Adherence to a certain code, certainly. Definitive adherence to the laws of the land, not necessarily.
Ohtar Turinson 12-15-04, 05:56 PM	From what I can figure out, I'd equate Merrix d'Cannith with Lorenzo de Medici in Renaissance Florence. Ruthless in getting what he wants, but not a bad guy in public; this plays into the 'mob boss' feel other people get. If you're one of his own, he'll do whatever it takes to help you out. If you're meddling in his schemes... well, one way or another, it won't be a problem much longer. By the same token, he's probably well liked, and a lot of people of all classes would side with him unless something huge came to light.
TricksterGod 12-15-04, 06:26 PM	First, I'd like to say that I think chaos can be disciplined and ordered; it just tends to be distrustful of authority and makes moves to limits authority's control over the individual. Which, of course, requires laws. And to get it accomplished, requires order and discipline. Now, with that said: As others have pointed out, Merrix respects tradition. It's also a safe bet that he has at least a few nobles in his pocket; he's bright enough to realize that letting loose newly created warforged into the world is bound to leave a trail that can be followed to him, and he probably already has a few contingencies with that in mind. Having not read Sharn, sadly (Christmas is just around the corner, though...), I'd be willing to bet that, in Sharn at least, he has a few people in his pocket that are likely aware of his operation, at least slightly, and works with their permission on an unofficial level. Lawfulness also, to a degree, represents a certain distrust in change; the shut down of the creation forges happened all of, what, two years ago? Merrix is also less likely to put up with challenges to his authority or criticism. After all, his is a legacy that comes from the supposed inventor of warforged, after a fashion. It's no one elses place to question that. I also don't see him as believing his role as a leader represents his serving those under him and sees it more as those under him being his servants; I personally see people serving authority as being essentially lawful, whereas authority serving the people as more towards the chaotic side. Oh, and to anyone who would question why Merrix is evil: He's creating sentient, living creatures for what basically comes down to magical experimentation. He's not doing it for their benefit by any means. Those warforged could get hurt or killed and he likely wouldn't care a bit except beyond what it taught him or how it appeased his curiosity; he'd probably just make another and very well might try thrusting it into those very same circumstances to see how it would fare. Hmm...sleepy. In either case, when I saw Merrix d'Canniths alignment, I didn't even blink.
Just another user 12-15-04, 06:37 PM	About Alignment in the DM House They have an old saying that goes "Gold have not alignment" or also "He could be Evil, but his gold looks Good to me" :) Beside one of the nicest things of Eberron is that Alignment is so blurry that you could get rid of it almost completely, using it only for Outsiders and some clerical spells.
(Psi)SeveredHead 12-15-04, 07:58 PM	Lawful evil characters can break the law. They're not required to find loopholes first. They're more interested in order.
SirLoin 12-15-04, 08:46 PM	I have Merrix as one of the key NPCs in my campaign. Thus far I have played him as a Lawful Neutral. However I have given him a mild insanity and mildly infirm. He is obsessive compulsive. The infirm part explains why he needs the adventurers to undertake the tasks he pays them so well to do. I use the creation Forge as a living Psionic entity that is controlling him which makes him circumvent the law at times, or have the PCs break the laws for him.
Ramses III 12-16-04, 12:16 AM	I think we will find that House Cannith was not a signatory of the Treaty of Thronehold. Excellent point. This is exactly the kind of justification I see a LE character using.
kisama 12-17-04, 04:15 PM	Who is, of course, flagrantly violating one of the highest laws of the land for his own sense of curiosity. One that could get him beheaded if anybody finds out about it. Not exactly a very lawful approach. Taken from the Player handbook: "Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties." The only argument you could make for him not being Lawful is he is not respecting authority. However given that he is a noble, I don't think he really has anyone to answer to but himself and his god. Better yet, the signatory point is a better excuse for him doing as he pleases in this case. So I would argue he is still acting within the bounds of his alignment.