Mind Flayer Minds... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Mind Flayer Minds... [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
6457890
08-08-05, 08:40 PM Mind Flayers in Eberron are Outsider(extraplanar), right? They also have Damage Reduction 5/byeshk, right? Do they become Challenge Rating 9 or do they stay at 8? Because compare them:

Mind Flayer(Standard)
Powerful beign that usually likes when he is out of reach by melee characters, do to his fair weakness to physical damage. He has some weak saves, so he can be overpowered by reflex and fortitude-based spells(those which actually pass its spell resistance 25 + class levels). He has his best and trademark attack, which is Mind Blast, that can easily turn the tide in battle by rendering useless most weak-willed characters

Mind Flayer(Eberron)
Better in comparation with the standard flayers, the mind flayers got virtually little or no weakness. They have all good saves, spell resistance, damage reduction of a uncommon material(byeshk). And the have far more skills than there lesser versions(8+ int modifyer instead of 2+ int)

Do this modifications make them of a higher cr? or maybe there just stronger but not that much, and other outsiders of similar cr can match them?

I thought about the Erinyes. But you see, the Erinyes, as powerful as it is, cant smack multiple opponents with a mind blast, hes weaker to spells, and the damage reduction that he has is easyer to pass with an align weapon spell...

Should they increase in Cr?

I consider a yes, because BE(before eberron) i considered Mind Flayers as though as demons and devils of the same Cr. Cause of their earth-shaking mind blast of course. But now he is an outsider also.

What do you ThinK?
6457890
08-08-05, 08:55 PM Another thing, im gonna use a mind flayer in my campaign, so i want to know which class level do you recomend? The book says sorcerers, but i see some potential in warlock. What Do ya think?=
Beleriphon
08-08-05, 09:05 PM Another thing, im gonna use a mind flayer in my campaign, so i want to know which class level do you recomend? The book says sorcerers, but i see some potential in warlock. What Do ya think?=

Psions are dirty powerful when used with a mindflayer. Plus flavourwise it tastes good.
6457890
08-08-05, 09:15 PM Unfortunately, i dont have the expanded psionics handbook.
It is quite sad. What i do have is...

-Player Handbook
-Monster Manual 3.5
-Dungeon Masters Guide
-Arms and Equiptment Guide
-Complete Arcane
-Complete Warrior
-Libris Mortis
-Eberron Campaign Setting
6457890
08-08-05, 09:16 PM Oh,i forgot one.

-Epic Level Handbook

Me sleepy again...
Azual
08-08-05, 09:51 PM introducing psionics into a campaign is like putting a very large, very miffed, tiger on a small life raft in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean with an orangatang, a zebra, a hyena, and you. YOU BETTER BE DARN CAREFUL IF YOU WANT TO GET OUT WITH YOUR ARSE UNSCATHED.

Trust me, i was stupid enough to let a powergamer play a psionic character. The guy is not allowed in my session ever again.

Darn video gaming powergamers with a pea sized brain and an imagination as flimsy as a wet kleenex. :twitch: :rant:
Azual
08-08-05, 09:53 PM the late night is somniferious and making me cranky.
nfras
08-08-05, 09:56 PM Psionics can be a real headache (no pun intended). If you can, keep them out of your game.
The players in my campaign are going to come across a mind-flayer, working out of Morgrave University. For a time he may be their patron.
I was tossing up betwen psion or sorceror and stuck with sorceror simply because it's far easier to handle.
makeshiftwings
08-08-05, 09:58 PM Mind Flayers in Eberron are Outsider(extraplanar), right? They also have Damage Reduction 5/byeshk, right? Do they become Challenge Rating 9 or do they stay at 8? Because compare them:

I don't think the intention was that you need to restat all the aberrations as Outsiders, upping their saves and skills and everything. I could be wrong, but that seems like too much trouble. I think the only mechanical change is the DR 5/byeshk, since that's the only one that's specifically mentioned. The dolgrims and all those other new daelkyr creations are all from Xoriat as well, but they're Aberrations, not Outsiders(Extraplanar).
6457890
08-08-05, 10:06 PM No they arent, they were created AFTER the daelkyr came. Mind Flayers are as native to Xoriat as Daelkyr. They should be outsiders, the Flayers
6457890
08-08-05, 10:07 PM And flayers are also with the evil subtype
Hellcow
08-08-05, 10:26 PM No they arent, they were created AFTER the daelkyr came. Mind Flayers are as native to Xoriat as Daelkyr. They should be outsiders, the Flayers
Nope. being from another plane just makes you extraplanar. Outsider has a meaning all its own. There are fey on Thelanis and lycanthropes born in Lammania, and neither are outsiders. Likewise, beholders and mind flayers are still aberrations, even if they are extraplanar.

Of course, you can certainly go ahead and restat them if you'd like, but yes, with the improved saves, improved chance to hit, and improved skill points, I'd certainly give them a CR bump - and that was not the intent of Eberron. Mind flayers are one of the iconic aberrations, and Gatekeepers are trained to fight aberrations - not as much use if their greatest foes are outsiders.
The White Sorcerer
08-08-05, 10:31 PM Mind Flayers in Eberron are Outsider(extraplanar), right?
Nope. Aberration (extraplanar).

Being extraplanar doesn't make one an outsider (or vice versa).
Take the inevitables, for instance. Constuct (extraplanar, lawful). Or the gith. Humanoid (extraplanar).
6457890
08-08-05, 10:32 PM Oooooowwww Me hurting now... But ok
I didint want to restat them anyway :D
a_psh
08-08-05, 11:27 PM Trust me, i was stupid enough to let a powergamer play a psionic character. The guy is not allowed in my session ever again.

Psionics will not power-break your game. Anything a dirty twinked-out powergamer can do with a psion, he can do with a wizard. This has been expounded on copiously on the Psionics boards.

Psionics *might* flavor-break your game. Eberron, however, does a damn fine job of keeping that from happening.
drunkenewok
08-09-05, 09:37 AM Psionics will not power-break your game. Anything a dirty twinked-out powergamer can do with a psion, he can do with a wizard. This has been expounded on copiously on the Psionics boards.

I'll second that, with the caveat that if the player is likely to try bending the psionics rules to get an edge, it might be very possible for him to break the game. The way to stop it:

a) Know the psionics rules and keep an eye on your player
b) Don't allow power-crazy gamers access to something you don't fully know the rules for

I'll also second the sentiment that Flayers with psion levels rock.
a_psh
08-09-05, 03:04 PM b) Don't allow power-crazy gamers access to something you don't fully know the rules for
Hear-hear! That's exactly it: players misrepresenting rules that the DM hasn't looked at for their own benefit breaks the game every time.

I'll also second the sentiment that Flayers with psion levels rock.
Especially if you give them different specialties and put them together in an inquisition. Mmm.
Greyseed
08-10-05, 05:13 AM I don't believe that's true. Eberron Ithilids only have 2 differences.
The extraplanar subtype, allowing them to be banished etc, and The damage reduction. They're still abberations though.
Illithid13
08-10-05, 09:22 AM I'll second that, with the caveat that if the player is likely to try bending the psionics rules to get an edge, it might be very possible for him to break the game. The way to stop it:

a) Know the psionics rules and keep an eye on your player
b) Don't allow power-crazy gamers access to something you don't fully know the rules for I agree whole heartedly, we have a guy in our game that is natorious with doing this with spells. He just ommits info that he wants to get arround.

I'll also second the sentiment that Flayers with psion levels rock.

If you truely want a Flayer that rocks, take levels in the Illithid Savant PrC... Mildly weak at first, but just wait until he eats a few people's brains... I made an NPC guide of one for my epic campaign. He is INSAIN.
6457890
08-10-05, 09:30 AM I went for sorcerer. It is practicly immune to spells. He is a 17th level sorcerer. Cr-25 but he has 42 Sr. WOOT. :D
Rny2
08-10-05, 04:20 PM internally arresting
Thievingrouge
08-10-05, 05:44 PM In Eberron Mind Flayers are Aberrations with the (Extraplanar) subtype, not outsiders. This isn't 3.0 anymore.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
6457890 08-08-05, 08:40 PM	Mind Flayers in Eberron are Outsider(extraplanar), right? They also have Damage Reduction 5/byeshk, right? Do they become Challenge Rating 9 or do they stay at 8? Because compare them: Mind Flayer(Standard) Powerful beign that usually likes when he is out of reach by melee characters, do to his fair weakness to physical damage. He has some weak saves, so he can be overpowered by reflex and fortitude-based spells(those which actually pass its spell resistance 25 + class levels). He has his best and trademark attack, which is Mind Blast, that can easily turn the tide in battle by rendering useless most weak-willed characters Mind Flayer(Eberron) Better in comparation with the standard flayers, the mind flayers got virtually little or no weakness. They have all good saves, spell resistance, damage reduction of a uncommon material(byeshk). And the have far more skills than there lesser versions(8+ int modifyer instead of 2+ int) Do this modifications make them of a higher cr? or maybe there just stronger but not that much, and other outsiders of similar cr can match them? I thought about the Erinyes. But you see, the Erinyes, as powerful as it is, cant smack multiple opponents with a mind blast, hes weaker to spells, and the damage reduction that he has is easyer to pass with an align weapon spell... Should they increase in Cr? I consider a yes, because BE(before eberron) i considered Mind Flayers as though as demons and devils of the same Cr. Cause of their earth-shaking mind blast of course. But now he is an outsider also. What do you ThinK?
6457890 08-08-05, 08:55 PM	Another thing, im gonna use a mind flayer in my campaign, so i want to know which class level do you recomend? The book says sorcerers, but i see some potential in warlock. What Do ya think?=
Beleriphon 08-08-05, 09:05 PM	Another thing, im gonna use a mind flayer in my campaign, so i want to know which class level do you recomend? The book says sorcerers, but i see some potential in warlock. What Do ya think?= Psions are dirty powerful when used with a mindflayer. Plus flavourwise it tastes good.
6457890 08-08-05, 09:15 PM	Unfortunately, i dont have the expanded psionics handbook. It is quite sad. What i do have is... -Player Handbook -Monster Manual 3.5 -Dungeon Masters Guide -Arms and Equiptment Guide -Complete Arcane -Complete Warrior -Libris Mortis -Eberron Campaign Setting
6457890 08-08-05, 09:16 PM	Oh,i forgot one. -Epic Level Handbook Me sleepy again...
Azual 08-08-05, 09:51 PM	introducing psionics into a campaign is like putting a very large, very miffed, tiger on a small life raft in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean with an orangatang, a zebra, a hyena, and you. YOU BETTER BE DARN CAREFUL IF YOU WANT TO GET OUT WITH YOUR ARSE UNSCATHED. Trust me, i was stupid enough to let a powergamer play a psionic character. The guy is not allowed in my session ever again. Darn video gaming powergamers with a pea sized brain and an imagination as flimsy as a wet kleenex. :twitch: :rant:
Azual 08-08-05, 09:53 PM	the late night is somniferious and making me cranky.
nfras 08-08-05, 09:56 PM	Psionics can be a real headache (no pun intended). If you can, keep them out of your game. The players in my campaign are going to come across a mind-flayer, working out of Morgrave University. For a time he may be their patron. I was tossing up betwen psion or sorceror and stuck with sorceror simply because it's far easier to handle.
makeshiftwings 08-08-05, 09:58 PM	Mind Flayers in Eberron are Outsider(extraplanar), right? They also have Damage Reduction 5/byeshk, right? Do they become Challenge Rating 9 or do they stay at 8? Because compare them: I don't think the intention was that you need to restat all the aberrations as Outsiders, upping their saves and skills and everything. I could be wrong, but that seems like too much trouble. I think the only mechanical change is the DR 5/byeshk, since that's the only one that's specifically mentioned. The dolgrims and all those other new daelkyr creations are all from Xoriat as well, but they're Aberrations, not Outsiders(Extraplanar).
6457890 08-08-05, 10:06 PM	No they arent, they were created AFTER the daelkyr came. Mind Flayers are as native to Xoriat as Daelkyr. They should be outsiders, the Flayers
6457890 08-08-05, 10:07 PM	And flayers are also with the evil subtype
Hellcow 08-08-05, 10:26 PM	No they arent, they were created AFTER the daelkyr came. Mind Flayers are as native to Xoriat as Daelkyr. They should be outsiders, the Flayers Nope. being from another plane just makes you extraplanar. Outsider has a meaning all its own. There are fey on Thelanis and lycanthropes born in Lammania, and neither are outsiders. Likewise, beholders and mind flayers are still aberrations, even if they are extraplanar. Of course, you can certainly go ahead and restat them if you'd like, but yes, with the improved saves, improved chance to hit, and improved skill points, I'd certainly give them a CR bump - and that was not the intent of Eberron. Mind flayers are one of the iconic aberrations, and Gatekeepers are trained to fight aberrations - not as much use if their greatest foes are outsiders.
The White Sorcerer 08-08-05, 10:31 PM	Mind Flayers in Eberron are Outsider(extraplanar), right? Nope. Aberration (extraplanar). Being extraplanar doesn't make one an outsider (or vice versa). Take the inevitables, for instance. Constuct (extraplanar, lawful). Or the gith. Humanoid (extraplanar).
6457890 08-08-05, 10:32 PM	Oooooowwww Me hurting now... But ok I didint want to restat them anyway :D
a_psh 08-08-05, 11:27 PM	Trust me, i was stupid enough to let a powergamer play a psionic character. The guy is not allowed in my session ever again. Psionics will not power-break your game. Anything a dirty twinked-out powergamer can do with a psion, he can do with a wizard. This has been expounded on copiously on the Psionics boards. Psionics might flavor-break your game. Eberron, however, does a damn fine job of keeping that from happening.
drunkenewok 08-09-05, 09:37 AM	Psionics will not power-break your game. Anything a dirty twinked-out powergamer can do with a psion, he can do with a wizard. This has been expounded on copiously on the Psionics boards. I'll second that, with the caveat that if the player is likely to try bending the psionics rules to get an edge, it might be very possible for him to break the game. The way to stop it: a) Know the psionics rules and keep an eye on your player b) Don't allow power-crazy gamers access to something you don't fully know the rules for I'll also second the sentiment that Flayers with psion levels rock.
a_psh 08-09-05, 03:04 PM	b) Don't allow power-crazy gamers access to something you don't fully know the rules for Hear-hear! That's exactly it: players misrepresenting rules that the DM hasn't looked at for their own benefit breaks the game every time. I'll also second the sentiment that Flayers with psion levels rock. Especially if you give them different specialties and put them together in an inquisition. Mmm.
Greyseed 08-10-05, 05:13 AM	I don't believe that's true. Eberron Ithilids only have 2 differences. The extraplanar subtype, allowing them to be banished etc, and The damage reduction. They're still abberations though.
Illithid13 08-10-05, 09:22 AM	I'll second that, with the caveat that if the player is likely to try bending the psionics rules to get an edge, it might be very possible for him to break the game. The way to stop it: a) Know the psionics rules and keep an eye on your player b) Don't allow power-crazy gamers access to something you don't fully know the rules for I agree whole heartedly, we have a guy in our game that is natorious with doing this with spells. He just ommits info that he wants to get arround. I'll also second the sentiment that Flayers with psion levels rock. If you truely want a Flayer that rocks, take levels in the Illithid Savant PrC... Mildly weak at first, but just wait until he eats a few people's brains... I made an NPC guide of one for my epic campaign. He is INSAIN.
6457890 08-10-05, 09:30 AM	I went for sorcerer. It is practicly immune to spells. He is a 17th level sorcerer. Cr-25 but he has 42 Sr. WOOT. :D
Rny2 08-10-05, 04:20 PM	internally arresting
Thievingrouge 08-10-05, 05:44 PM	In Eberron Mind Flayers are Aberrations with the (Extraplanar) subtype, not outsiders. This isn't 3.0 anymore.