Mmiii [Archive] - Wizards Community - Pages Merged by Solauren

Mmiii [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SirLoin
09-17-04, 08:36 AM :thumbsup:
They did an excellent job, especially from an Eberron standpoint.
For most creatures it specifies where they can be found and what role they play in an Eberron campaign setting.
Some interesting new races as well as enveloped the Eberron races availability to other campaigns.
Developers also added some more tidbits of information to the Eberron races and created two new warforged sub-types.

I give it an 8 out of ten.
It lost two for lack of originality with the other creatures.
The White Sorcerer
09-17-04, 08:55 AM What are the new warforged subtypes?
SirLoin
09-17-04, 10:14 AM One is a Warforged charger, it is a gorrilla looking warforged with a bunch of extra and a level adjustment of +3 (if I recall correctly).
The other is a Warforged Scout, it is 3 foot tall and its favored class is Rogue.
MarkB
09-17-04, 10:31 AM Is the Charger considered Large, or is it just heavily-built?
SirLoin
09-17-04, 12:22 PM It is medium size. It runs on all four "legs" and has spikes on the shoulders. It has bonus feats to accent it's class.
I do not have the book in front of me ATM since I am at work so I do not know the specifics, just from memory from reading it last night.
Neofish
09-17-04, 08:30 PM And so begins the slow decent of the Warforged, First the charger, then the scout.
Soon it will be template, regionally different warforged sub-races, and on, and on, and on.

The decent will be straight and long, soon they will reach the lowest depths of depravity, and there they will stay with the played out drow.

"What was once so beautiful, Is now so far gone, for the machines of marketing maimed them beyond repair, alas poor Warforged... I hardly knew ye (wence :weep: )....
Hellcow
09-17-04, 09:27 PM And so begins the slow decent of the Warforged, First the charger, then the scout. Soon it will be template, regionally different warforged sub-races, and on, and on, and on.
I know this is an issue you feel strongly about, Neofish, but I wouldn't panic just yet. As I said before, Races of Eberron probably has the greatest focus on the warforged you'll see in a WotC sourcebook but does not include any sort of subrace, template, or new models.

The scout model was something that was present from the very begining of the world (as shown by my use of scouts in Death at Whitehearth) that simply ended up not being put in the main book; like the Poison Dusk lizardfolk, the idea was there and was pulled out both for space and because we felt that the Medium warforged were best suited for player use, and wanted to place the focus of the world on them. As a Small body type, the scout is significantly different from the medium warforged and is in my opinion more like comparing a dwarf to a halfling than a gray elf to a wood elf. If we start presenting different stat builds for Medium and Small warforged, I will certainly be there with you bemoaning the loss of the warforged ideal -- but the construction of two models that are so physically distinctive to begin with is something I'm OK with.

The charger is more or less a missing link between the warforged titan and the warforged soldier. It is not intended for use as a PC race; it is quadrapedal, does not use weapons, has very low mental stats, and if you check the book again is a Large creature. It is described as "an earlier, less adapatable model" and represents the slow evolution from construct to the versatile warforged soldier, not a custom variation of the warforged soldier. It would be a very odd choice for a PC (and is level adjusted to boot), and is presented primarily as a creature you might find in the Mournland or in the armed forces. An important question is whether the low-intelligence proto-warforged like the titans and chargers were included in the Treaty of Thronehold; if so, the question is what sort of work such a creature is suited for, given its limited intellect and ability to manipulate objects.
lugnut71
09-17-04, 11:53 PM And so begins the slow decent of the Warforged, First the charger, then the scout.
Soon it will be template, regionally different warforged sub-races, and on, and on, and on.

The decent will be straight and long, soon they will reach the lowest depths of depravity, and there they will stay with the played out drow.

"What was once so beautiful, Is now so far gone, for the machines of marketing maimed them beyond repair, alas poor Warforged... I hardly knew ye (wence :weep: )....

To add something this seems like quit a jump to a conclusion without actually seeing much about either other then the fact that they are warforged and different.
Saurenda
09-18-04, 12:08 AM I personally like the warforged charger. Warforged scout, looks kinda iffy; not so much.

As for making warforged a template I don't think so, but I would like to see a similar idea if not that for other such creations.

I understand there are people who don't want such a thing and I can understand as it is a race, and doesn't need a lot of subraces.

If nothing else I am satisfied with the charger, and the titan.
SirLoin
09-18-04, 09:37 AM I think you get into a crossover area when you are dealing with constructs Vs Sentient constructs and all the diversification. If you look into constructs there are so many different kinds, many of which are made out of different substances such as clay, rope, rock, glass, iron, etc.. the list goes on forever. The question would be which types gained, or are able to gain, sentience. They may even lead you to the question of how diverse of a sentient construct could a creation forge make.

Why can only a 5'6" - 6'6" tall, wood/metal/& stone warforged be the only construct to gain sentience? Was that the only type the creation forge could make? Why couldn't there be a whole race of "clay" warforged?

Here is why. Playability and limitations on adding a new aspect to balanced game mechanics. One could probably write up a whole 350 page book on Warforged (coming in february :rolleyes: ). However since a campaign setting only allows for limited amount of information on each topic, then you have to allow for future application of this new and somewhat contraversial race.
Any may agree or disagree on any additional information on the Warforged. Is Keith the only person allowed to use the Warforged how he sees fit? No.
I run an Eberron campaign, and I will implement and discard ideas as I see fit for MY game setting. I have already disallowed PrC's the option or being a warforged juggernaut, because I do not see how that fits into my view of my gaming campaign or eberron. The same can be applied to Drow.
The books and supplimental material are only guides, as GM's and/or players you do not have to be led around by a leash. Just because WoTC publishes something does not make it the "Holy Grail" to be used in every campaign. But whatever you allow or disallow my advice is to make sure it is balanced within your campaign.
Hellcow
09-18-04, 12:26 PM The books and supplimental material are only guides, as GM's and/or players you do not have to be led around by a leash. Just because WoTC publishes something does not make it the "Holy Grail" to be used in every campaign. But whatever you allow or disallow my advice is to make sure it is balanced within your campaign.
I couldn't agree more. As I've said before, there are folks who WANT warforged subraces, and hey, if it makes you happy, go for it. You should always do what works in your campaign.
Iver Gearsham
09-18-04, 01:58 PM I love small characters the Scout sounds interesting I gotta check it out.

As far as Templates there are ready is examples of warforged Dogs and Scorpions, Life has spent millions of years perfecting forms too function why wouldn't a crafter take advantage of all that leg work?
Hellcow
09-18-04, 03:37 PM As far as Templates there are ready is examples of warforged Dogs and Scorpions...
If you mean iron defenders and the scorpion from the cover, just to be precise, while these are constructs they aren't warforged. The most distinguishing features of the warforged are full sentience, the ability to learn, and (in theory) the presence of a soul... though it can certainly be argued that Aaren and Merrix weren't particular interested in soldiers with souls.

These three traits were difficult to produce, and my (and only my) feeling is that they can't just be applied to any form. The titan is not actually a living construct, and the charger doesn't have the full intellect of the soldier; again, the charger is the link between the soldier and the titan. But even with Cannith having perfected the warforged soldier, I don't feel that this means they can create living constructs of any shape and size. As suggested by the idea that Cannith is drawing on secrets of Xen'drik for their work, the warforged are more than just constructs, and their form may be a necessary part of being able to carry a soul.

But these are just my thoughts: again, you should do as you wish. But I really don't expect to see an official warforged template in the future.
Pallis
09-18-04, 04:39 PM I reckon that the MMIII is, by definition of the inclusion of Eberron noted monster entries the first real sourcebook for the CSB. In my humble opinion a must have - and the equivalent to Monsters of Faerun in all but name, and with more pages!
As for the Warforged, I'm glad there are subtypes; it works for my viewpoint on the world and I'll use them.
All in all, excellent stuff...knowing regional sitings for monsters is invaluable and tremendously useful for the DM.
In addition, there's also scattered information about Xen'drik lurking within certain monster's notations...

:whatsthis

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SirLoin 09-17-04, 08:36 AM	:thumbsup: They did an excellent job, especially from an Eberron standpoint. For most creatures it specifies where they can be found and what role they play in an Eberron campaign setting. Some interesting new races as well as enveloped the Eberron races availability to other campaigns. Developers also added some more tidbits of information to the Eberron races and created two new warforged sub-types. I give it an 8 out of ten. It lost two for lack of originality with the other creatures.
The White Sorcerer 09-17-04, 08:55 AM	What are the new warforged subtypes?
SirLoin 09-17-04, 10:14 AM	One is a Warforged charger, it is a gorrilla looking warforged with a bunch of extra and a level adjustment of +3 (if I recall correctly). The other is a Warforged Scout, it is 3 foot tall and its favored class is Rogue.
MarkB 09-17-04, 10:31 AM	Is the Charger considered Large, or is it just heavily-built?
SirLoin 09-17-04, 12:22 PM	It is medium size. It runs on all four "legs" and has spikes on the shoulders. It has bonus feats to accent it's class. I do not have the book in front of me ATM since I am at work so I do not know the specifics, just from memory from reading it last night.
Neofish 09-17-04, 08:30 PM	And so begins the slow decent of the Warforged, First the charger, then the scout. Soon it will be template, regionally different warforged sub-races, and on, and on, and on. The decent will be straight and long, soon they will reach the lowest depths of depravity, and there they will stay with the played out drow. "What was once so beautiful, Is now so far gone, for the machines of marketing maimed them beyond repair, alas poor Warforged... I hardly knew ye (wence :weep: )....
Hellcow 09-17-04, 09:27 PM	And so begins the slow decent of the Warforged, First the charger, then the scout. Soon it will be template, regionally different warforged sub-races, and on, and on, and on. I know this is an issue you feel strongly about, Neofish, but I wouldn't panic just yet. As I said before, Races of Eberron probably has the greatest focus on the warforged you'll see in a WotC sourcebook but does not include any sort of subrace, template, or new models. The scout model was something that was present from the very begining of the world (as shown by my use of scouts in Death at Whitehearth) that simply ended up not being put in the main book; like the Poison Dusk lizardfolk, the idea was there and was pulled out both for space and because we felt that the Medium warforged were best suited for player use, and wanted to place the focus of the world on them. As a Small body type, the scout is significantly different from the medium warforged and is in my opinion more like comparing a dwarf to a halfling than a gray elf to a wood elf. If we start presenting different stat builds for Medium and Small warforged, I will certainly be there with you bemoaning the loss of the warforged ideal -- but the construction of two models that are so physically distinctive to begin with is something I'm OK with. The charger is more or less a missing link between the warforged titan and the warforged soldier. It is not intended for use as a PC race; it is quadrapedal, does not use weapons, has very low mental stats, and if you check the book again is a Large creature. It is described as "an earlier, less adapatable model" and represents the slow evolution from construct to the versatile warforged soldier, not a custom variation of the warforged soldier. It would be a very odd choice for a PC (and is level adjusted to boot), and is presented primarily as a creature you might find in the Mournland or in the armed forces. An important question is whether the low-intelligence proto-warforged like the titans and chargers were included in the Treaty of Thronehold; if so, the question is what sort of work such a creature is suited for, given its limited intellect and ability to manipulate objects.
lugnut71 09-17-04, 11:53 PM	And so begins the slow decent of the Warforged, First the charger, then the scout. Soon it will be template, regionally different warforged sub-races, and on, and on, and on. The decent will be straight and long, soon they will reach the lowest depths of depravity, and there they will stay with the played out drow. "What was once so beautiful, Is now so far gone, for the machines of marketing maimed them beyond repair, alas poor Warforged... I hardly knew ye (wence :weep: ).... To add something this seems like quit a jump to a conclusion without actually seeing much about either other then the fact that they are warforged and different.
Saurenda 09-18-04, 12:08 AM	I personally like the warforged charger. Warforged scout, looks kinda iffy; not so much. As for making warforged a template I don't think so, but I would like to see a similar idea if not that for other such creations. I understand there are people who don't want such a thing and I can understand as it is a race, and doesn't need a lot of subraces. If nothing else I am satisfied with the charger, and the titan.
SirLoin 09-18-04, 09:37 AM	I think you get into a crossover area when you are dealing with constructs Vs Sentient constructs and all the diversification. If you look into constructs there are so many different kinds, many of which are made out of different substances such as clay, rope, rock, glass, iron, etc.. the list goes on forever. The question would be which types gained, or are able to gain, sentience. They may even lead you to the question of how diverse of a sentient construct could a creation forge make. Why can only a 5'6" - 6'6" tall, wood/metal/& stone warforged be the only construct to gain sentience? Was that the only type the creation forge could make? Why couldn't there be a whole race of "clay" warforged? Here is why. Playability and limitations on adding a new aspect to balanced game mechanics. One could probably write up a whole 350 page book on Warforged (coming in february :rolleyes: ). However since a campaign setting only allows for limited amount of information on each topic, then you have to allow for future application of this new and somewhat contraversial race. Any may agree or disagree on any additional information on the Warforged. Is Keith the only person allowed to use the Warforged how he sees fit? No. I run an Eberron campaign, and I will implement and discard ideas as I see fit for MY game setting. I have already disallowed PrC's the option or being a warforged juggernaut, because I do not see how that fits into my view of my gaming campaign or eberron. The same can be applied to Drow. The books and supplimental material are only guides, as GM's and/or players you do not have to be led around by a leash. Just because WoTC publishes something does not make it the "Holy Grail" to be used in every campaign. But whatever you allow or disallow my advice is to make sure it is balanced within your campaign.
Hellcow 09-18-04, 12:26 PM	The books and supplimental material are only guides, as GM's and/or players you do not have to be led around by a leash. Just because WoTC publishes something does not make it the "Holy Grail" to be used in every campaign. But whatever you allow or disallow my advice is to make sure it is balanced within your campaign. I couldn't agree more. As I've said before, there are folks who WANT warforged subraces, and hey, if it makes you happy, go for it. You should always do what works in your campaign.
Iver Gearsham 09-18-04, 01:58 PM	I love small characters the Scout sounds interesting I gotta check it out. As far as Templates there are ready is examples of warforged Dogs and Scorpions, Life has spent millions of years perfecting forms too function why wouldn't a crafter take advantage of all that leg work?
Hellcow 09-18-04, 03:37 PM	As far as Templates there are ready is examples of warforged Dogs and Scorpions... If you mean iron defenders and the scorpion from the cover, just to be precise, while these are constructs they aren't warforged. The most distinguishing features of the warforged are full sentience, the ability to learn, and (in theory) the presence of a soul... though it can certainly be argued that Aaren and Merrix weren't particular interested in soldiers with souls. These three traits were difficult to produce, and my (and only my) feeling is that they can't just be applied to any form. The titan is not actually a living construct, and the charger doesn't have the full intellect of the soldier; again, the charger is the link between the soldier and the titan. But even with Cannith having perfected the warforged soldier, I don't feel that this means they can create living constructs of any shape and size. As suggested by the idea that Cannith is drawing on secrets of Xen'drik for their work, the warforged are more than just constructs, and their form may be a necessary part of being able to carry a soul. But these are just my thoughts: again, you should do as you wish. But I really don't expect to see an official warforged template in the future.
Pallis 09-18-04, 04:39 PM	I reckon that the MMIII is, by definition of the inclusion of Eberron noted monster entries the first real sourcebook for the CSB. In my humble opinion a must have - and the equivalent to Monsters of Faerun in all but name, and with more pages! As for the Warforged, I'm glad there are subtypes; it works for my viewpoint on the world and I'll use them. All in all, excellent stuff...knowing regional sitings for monsters is invaluable and tremendously useful for the DM. In addition, there's also scattered information about Xen'drik lurking within certain monster's notations... :whatsthis