Post/Author/DateTime	Post
MrFilthyIke 12-13-04, 02:51 PM	http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041213a&pf=true Where's the usual thread discussion the newest DS?
EvilDrPuma 12-13-04, 04:11 PM	Looks to me like you just volunteered. :D
Edymnion 12-13-04, 05:02 PM	I dunno, I just didn't find this one to be very good. But then, I never really liked the idea of oriental style monks in D&D. We should have gotten some sort of generic back alley brawler class, and have monk left as a PrC, IMO.
Splendide 12-13-04, 05:19 PM	Yeah, I didn't really see any new twist on the monk class in there. Its useful if you're just looking for a place for your monk to be, but I wasn't really inspired by it. Then again, I have a general apathy towards the monk class anyway....lawful compulsory? Sheesh.
MarkB 12-13-04, 05:23 PM	Monk isn't a class that ever appealed to me, and whilst I thought the article was a good informational tool on the monastic orders of Eberron, it did little to alter my opinion. The sort of rigid, highly ordered life portrayed in these establishments is something I don't even want to imagine putting my character through, and most of them seem even more fundamentally opposed to the basic concept of a free-spirited adventuring party than Paladins, which are already pushing things. The Dol Dorn monks have some built-in justification for going out and fighting, but the whole "inner enlightenment through conflict" concept makes them come off more like Psychotics Anonymous than anything else, still not too appealing. The goblin monastic order was also interesting, but their "suppress-all-emotions" philosophy makes them sound like short, green, amoral, kung-fu fighting Vulcans, still not something I relish as a PC.
Hellcow 12-13-04, 05:37 PM	I dunno, I just didn't find this one to be very good. But then, I never really liked the idea of oriental style monks in D&D. Ah well, you can't win em all (or I can't, at least ;)). My goal was to present different styles of monk and traditions that focus on the use of monastic abilities in different ways. In the case of the Broken Blade, it is an order where physical and martial perfection is a form of religious devotion, and it's based around the use of the sword to add a little more color to the class. With the Flayed Hand, the order is about controlling the body through mental and physical discipline - pain as both weapon and tool. And the shaarat'khesh have no religious affiliation at all, and simply pursue martial arts in order to be deadly assassins even when unarmed. The goblin monastic order was also interesting, but their "suppress-all-emotions" philosophy makes them sound like short, green, amoral, kung-fu fighting Vulcans, still not something I relish as a PC. Actually, I wasn't thinking of the shaarat'khesh or especially the Flayed Hand as PCs - more as NPCs a party might have to deal with. The shaarat'khesh are professional assassins in the service of the goblin empire, and the monks of the Mockery are socipaths in the service of the god of sociopaths. In the case of a shaarat'khesh goblin, you could downplay that a bit if you wanted to use it as a PC, but mental discipline is one of the fundamental principles of the monk class, and the concept of the shaarat'khesh as having maintained absolute political neutrality over the millenia implies the ability to be completely detached about their work. I'd say that a taarka'khesh goblin is a better bet if you want to be a tough goblin but still up for letting your ears down once in a while. As for whether it would be better to simply avoid monks in D&D altogether, that's certainly a path you can follow. But as it stands they are part of the core rules, and have been since first edition - so here's how they fit into things. On the other hand, if you want to limit them to groups like the shaarat'khesh - in which case they do become alien martial arts most people have never seen - that's certainly an option. On the front of wanting a monk to be a brawler - even as things stand, there's nothing saying that the monk of Dol Dorn has to use kung fu when making his unarmed attacks. It could be that he has studied the arts of war in such great detail that he is a lethal brawler - that he's just punching and kicking as opposed to performing stylized martial arts, but he's so good that he knows exactly where to hit. The monk of the Mockery may literally just poke his opponents, but know where to strike to cause crippling pain. This carries a certain degree of "then why can't he fight that well with a battle axe?", but hey, it's a thought; just because they are skill unarmed combatants doesn't mean that they have to appear to be using Eastern martial arts.
chimpman 12-13-04, 05:37 PM	Come on... The Silent Master? How cool is that? Maybe it's just because I'm preparing for an Heirs of Dhakaan campaign, but I loved this DS. The little nuggets of history about the Shaarat'khesh will provide my PCs with hours of misery :devil: .
JohnnyONeal 12-13-04, 06:26 PM	The goblin monastic order was also interesting, but their "suppress-all-emotions" philosophy makes them sound like short, green, amoral, kung-fu fighting Vulcans, still not something I relish as a PC.I've been using the shaarat'kesh in a couple of my games, and (as the DM) I really enjoy roleplaying their stoic personalities. When they do show emotion, it's all the more meaningful. To me it's less Vulcan and more samurai-esque, with a touch of the unfazeable experienced warrior (a la Wolverine). I've imposed an arbitrary penalty against Sense Motive checks as a racial feature of all the Dhakaani goblins in my game. In fact, the whole character type sort of makes me want to play a goblin monk who's totally unfazeable. The kind of guy who, even when faced with an ancient, angry half-fiend dragon, never reacts with more emotion than a slightly raised eyebrow. He still might run away, but very calmly. :)
Brastan 12-13-04, 06:46 PM	This one will take some time to sink in. Its still a good Shard. Unlike the others this one bolsters the background flavor of the setting which is especially good for role-playing and character development. Also the alteration of core class skills based on background is an interesting idea and could add to a characters uniqueness. Now lets see what other Monastic Orders could have developed in the Five Nations.
Edymnion 12-13-04, 06:49 PM	On the front of wanting a monk to be a brawler - even as things stand, there's nothing saying that the monk of Dol Dorn has to use kung fu when making his unarmed attacks.Yeah, its just that the flavor, the abilities, all high saves, and the restrictions all revolve around the oriental martial artist bent. Ki attacks, perfecting your body and soul, being lawful, no armor, it just doesn't fit with how I view the genre and the game in general. I, as an experienced player/DM can of course rebuild the class from the ground up into what I want it to be, but thats just the Oberroni Falacy* all over again. It would have been nice to see some kind of brawler in Eberron, but I can understand having to keep the PHB guys happy. *For those that don't know, the Oberroni Falacy was made up by an old poster named Oberroni. He basically stated that "Just because the DM can fix it doesn't mean it wasn't broken in the first place."
Gurv 12-13-04, 06:58 PM	The part I like about the article is that it explains why each Order could be found running around Eberron. One of the main problems with monks is that if they really thought an isolated, ascetic life was ideal, why are they in a group of treasure hunting heroes? Even though they are lawful, the Broken Blades like to fight. They need to fight, to bring themselves closer to enlightenment. A PC swordbrother can go along on any adventure with nothing more than that in mind. The Flayed Hand is more for NPCs, but a PC could play one as a merc without conflicting with his Order, or go on missions to prove himself. There is nothing worse than playing a monk whos vows or whatever are in conflict with a good adventure. The shaarat'khesh are the most NPC of the Orders, taking orders from above and serving a nation that doesn't quite exist yet. They are usually not drawn from the PC races. Whats best about the article is that it adds a tiny bit of crunch: Flayed Hands having Intimidate on their class list, changing the Knowledge skills of the shaarat'khesh, and the skills needed to attain ranks in the organizations, plus all the DC for recognizing members of the Orders. Very good Keith. Have you heard anything about prestige classes being written for these Orders? Have you been asked to write any?
Darkest90 12-13-04, 07:07 PM	The more organizations, the better. For example, in my campaign, the Silver Flame is fighting the Aurum over control of an archeological dig in the Seawall Mountains (what a coincidence!). Now I can throw in another group to make a little more friction, the sharaat'kesh. Maybe the artifact they are all looking for is actually an important relic of Dhakaani Prophecy... Who knows? More Organizations = Friction = Conflict = Good adventures = Fun So... thank you very much Keith! I for one appreciate the article.
Xaean 12-13-04, 07:14 PM	I like the swordbrothers and sisters and also the other orders described here, but I was a bit dissapointed, that there was no order dedicated to the Path of Light. The Path of Light would really make a fine background for monks.
Hellcow 12-13-04, 07:19 PM	I like the swordbrothers and sisters and also the other orders described here, but I was a bit dissapointed, that there was no order dedicated to the Path of Light. The Path of Light would really make a fine background for monks. One is hinted at - the Tashalantora of Adar, mentioned just before the Order of the Broken Blade. There will be a dragonshard about kalashtar martial traditions in the future, and of course there is a great deal of information about both the kalashtar and the Path of Light in Races of Eberron.
Gurv 12-13-04, 07:27 PM	It does mention the Tashalatora of Adar. But sadly no room for details. If I were to take a shot at it, I would say that they combined monkdom with psionics, either with monks taking psionic feats (via Wild Talent if need be), or multiclass options. Naturally, they would believe in the mastery of the body leads to greater connectivity to the spirit. Greater connection to ones soul allows for great achievements of physical and metaphysical sorts. They would oppose those things that corrupt and/or damage souls, such as the Dreaming Dark and the Dreaming Dark. Fist of Zuoken would work great with just a rename. Edit: Keith types faster than me. Darned professional writers.
shadowpavement 12-13-04, 11:16 PM	The best monk character I ever played in a game wasn't a martial arts type at all. I styled him after Zangief from Street Fighter. A huge hulking russian (even did the accent) wrestler. Specialized him in grappling, and got him a belt of giant's strenght eventually. The reason I love 3.5 monks so much is that you have the option of switching in feats that are available. That's what really allows for the differing flavor in monks. I was thinking of having a small order of Lahazar kick fighteres who effectively study the style of Savat which is a frech kick boxing style developed by french sailors after visiting southeast asia, china, and japan. I just love the image of a bunch of cavorting, pirate song singing sailors that don't need weapons to take over another ship. Mongoose publishing has put out the Quintisential Monk book which has lots of options for making "non asian" style monks such as street brawlers.
Arcane Guyver 12-14-04, 12:46 AM	I rather liked this shard. Some things surprised me (though they really shouldn't have, in retrospect): the fact that monks are like clerics, but instead of being spell-toting, armor wearing warriors, they focus on making their body the ultimate weapon via punishing training. Those goblin monks made me think of the upcoming ninja class, and how some Dhakkani gobs can take that class.
Just another user 12-14-04, 03:28 AM	A possible idea for a shaarat'khesh monk PC is a "sleeper" agent, someone that use the excuse of adventuring to go around and collect informations about Ken'drik, the five nations, the DM houses or anything else that could be useful to the Order, make it a rogue/monk but the other PCs think he is just a rogue (the players can knows he is a monk, but the characters shouldn't) or maybe a rogue/fighter specialized in unarmed combat) as long as he don't go directly against a Dhaakani clan it should be fine, and if the other PCs do, he should try to "dissuade" them in any possible way.
Zalaz Mavi 12-14-04, 12:32 PM	It honestly isn't difficult at all to change the flavor of the monk class to reflect a less Oriental emphasis. A few hours research can give you substitute peasant weapons to employ. For example, the kama doesn't make much sense if the monks originate in a mountainous, herding culture. Use the kukri instead. Or if the monks live in the steppes, spears and short bows would be more appropriate. And so forth. As far as class abilities go, replace the word ki with humors, zikr or whatever suits. Just about every culture that has ever existed has produced ascetic groups of one type or other. If not groups, then at least individuals dedicated to rigid devotion and spiritual purity. Again, a few hours research will provide plenty to work from...
Pozas 12-14-04, 01:27 PM	It's not hard at all to strip away the oriental trappings of the monk and making a "generic fantasy" version of it. Here's my take. Although written for Fiery Dragon's World of Karathis, it's generic enough to be adapted to almost any campaign world. http://www.fierydragon.com/DB/DB_OCT27_2004.htm
Wotc_Mark 12-14-04, 02:03 PM	Where's the usual thread discussion the newest DS?I usually get the discussion started but I wasn't available to do so at midnight sunday night. And I figured that you guys would get the ball rollin without me. So... Thanx for starting the discussion. MJ :cool:
ESP 12-14-04, 11:18 PM	I happen to like monks just like they are. I do agree that their weapon list gives them a decidedly asian slant but that is easily changed. As to the game needing a back alley brawler, it has one. The fighter w/ improved unarmed strike and the power attack feat progression is perfect for that line of character developement. I think the monk is reserved for the proffesional unarmed fighter. Whether your emulating Bruce Lee or Muhamed Ali these were diciplined proffesionals, hence the lawfull alignment requirement. I can say from personal experience and years of study that any martial art, whether oriental in theme or not, requires strict mental dicipline and an adherence to a training regimine to keep your body and mind in shape. In short, the only reason monks have to have an oriental theme is if you see them that way. Otherwise I think they could be adapted quite easily to a more western pugilist feel w/ little tweeking. But hey, thats just my opinion. I could be wrong. ;)
Isran_Imrador 12-15-04, 09:56 AM	There are still some monk in europe and The Us of A to the are not known for there skills in unarmed combat but is closer to a cleric....A monk \ cleric variant would be fun to see as a "core class".
gaerfindel 12-15-04, 10:55 AM	The ECS has caused numerous cool images to pop up in my head, from time to time. One of my favourites is the image of a shaarat'khesh master training a PC in some of the arts a la Yoda training Luke.
MrFilthyIke 12-15-04, 12:48 PM	Thanx for starting the discussion. MJ :cool: Anytime. :cool:
jonthegm 12-15-04, 01:15 PM	Whenever I try to strip away the "Oriental" flavor of the monk class, I end up with an NPC cleric class with no spells and a lot of knowledge/craft skills. Cloistered Monk NPC Class Class Skills: Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Knowledge (Abbey Specific Specialty) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language (Int, If appropriate to the Abbey) Domains and Class Skills: A cloistered monk who worships a god with the Animal or Plant domain adds Knowledge (nature) (Int) to the cloistered monk class skills listed above. The Knowledge domain adds all Knowledge (Int) skills to the list. The Travel domain adds Survival (Wis) to the list. The Trickery domain adds Bluff (Cha), Disguise (Cha), and Hide (Dex) to the list. BAB: Use Wizard's Progression Saves: One good save, Will. Hit Die: d6 Class Features: The Cloistered Monk is proficient in one simple weapon. Nothing special... but it's an NPC class...
RadicalTaoist 12-15-04, 02:29 PM	Say, other people are sick of the Oriental stereotype of the monk?Well, there's this thread (http://boards.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=98571) in the Char Develop forum just for that. This was my idea (http://boards.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=4686751&postcount=41) and I think it could probably mesh very nicely with Eberron.
Hellcow 12-15-04, 02:46 PM	There are still some monk in europe and The Us of A to the are not known for there skills in unarmed combat but is closer to a cleric.... I'll note that clerics are actually a martial class, trained in the use of arms and armor and possessing high hit points. As noted in the article, the majority of cloistered monks in Eberron are actually experts; they devote their lives to religious contemplation but do not train for battle, and may not possess magical abilities. Remember that on Khorvaire, not every priest can work magic! Exceptional monks with access to divine magic may be represented by adepts; another option is the cloistered cleric presented in Unearthed Arcana.
m15a 12-15-04, 03:11 PM	just wanted to chime in and say that i enjoyed the article very much. the fact that so many people have trouble being able to see how the monk class fits into a world explains the necessity of such an article. i've been interested in the monks of the mockery, so this helped with that, though i doubt i'll play such a character, unfortunately. i, too, was hoping to hear something about the path of light, though i'm glad to hear it'll get attention in the future.
Zalaz Mavi 12-15-04, 04:12 PM	the fact that so many people have trouble being able to see how the monk class fits into a world explains the necessity of such an article. A lot of that has to due with the sword and sorcery genre in general. So many of the archetypes and motifs are so heavily drawn from European sources, that the introduction of material from other continents feels misplaced. The ultimate root of this sensibility lies in the fact that speculative fiction — as separate from folklore and mythology — is a singularly European product. As such, fantasy worlds are going to be filtered through a European lense, even in the total absense of any such analogy, leading to barbarians who are Germanic in flavor; clerics who resemble Christian missionaries; and so forth...
LordofIllusions 12-15-04, 04:48 PM	I dunno, I just didn't find this one to be very good. But then, I never really liked the idea of oriental style monks in D&D. We should have gotten some sort of generic back alley brawler class, and have monk left as a PrC, IMO. I feel the same, the only way I see oriental-style monks fitting into standard D&D is through the Oriental Adventures accessory. ~~~
Restless 12-15-04, 06:44 PM	I, personally, really liked this one. Of course, I love martial arts and kung-hu movies and I love playing a monk, even not a specifically asian-esque one. I mean, I like that in DND they added the monk and intergrated it into the traditional fantasy setting. I coinsider it a sort of innovation, making worlds more flavorful. Besides, like someone said before, it not all monks are kung-fu ninjas. a PC of mine plays a WF Scout Monk that is sort of a boxer. But mainly, I don't think that the monk gets enough attention and I really was happy to see it has not been over looked in Eberron. ps Monk fights are fun to imagine too, albeit a little farfetched when they're fighting a Ancient Wyrm...
JabBond 12-15-04, 11:33 PM	Can't wait for more kalashtar stuff! Yeah, the Path of Light dovetails very nicely with monk disciplines. As for psionic feats, well, don't forget that the kalashtar DO have a power point reserve. Psionic Fist is a great option, as well as Speed of Thought and Up the Wall. All of them require psionic focus, but hey, Concentration is a monk skill! Gee, I wonder what my next character will be if something happens to my rogue... ;)
Kobold Avenger 12-15-04, 11:56 PM	I didn't like how the whole Monk class was handled in D&D that I dropped it and replaced it with the more modifiable Martial Artist class. Which was designed to be adapted to any culture (though more of an emphasis was put on Chinese, due to the fact I like Kung Fu Movies) and capable of multi-classing with no alignment restrictions. The main thing about it is it gets a good reflex and fort save, a bunch of bonus feats every few levels and four paths to select out of a bunch. Paths are a bunch of special abilities gained at every level, the D&D Monk can roughly be recreated by taking paths of mind, spirit, the fist and movement. Of course when using it with any campaign setting where things were already set in place for Monks, a lot has to be done to adapt such a class. But conceivably I could use this martial artist class I designed for brawling pit-fighters from Droamm or hermits from the Eldeen Reaches who imitate animals there...
Isran_Imrador 12-16-04, 07:19 AM	Monk can have any flavor the pc or dm what! i like the different styles. maybe the name monk is missleading in European \ American, as monk from this continents are more like cloistered clerics as Keith sayed. What would this name be... A ex of an European style monk can be an order of knights in robes not full plate, they base the styles on the wolf, traveling in "pack" when hunting down evil or whatever! as their enemy in in sight they split an incircle the enemy! the leader is the Alpha monk...! The Wolk!!! lol
ESP 12-16-04, 12:19 PM	A ex of an European style monk can be an order of knights in robes not full plate, they base the styles on the wolf, traveling in "pack" when hunting down evil or whatever! as their enemy in in sight they split an incircle the enemy! the leader is the Alpha monk...! The Wolk!!! lol Make them elite military units used in the war and you've got yourself Eberron's version of the Navy Seals!
Isran_Imrador 12-17-04, 12:19 PM	HEHE, an Aundarian secret service! based at an camp outside passage! LOL it will be great!-)
Roxlimn 12-17-04, 01:17 PM	I also liked this article a lot, though it doesn't really offer any new concept for those of us who were acquainted with the Hong Kong movie industry before Ang Lee showed up in the US, and moreover, it doesn't allow for a more inclusive view of martial arts as it is viewed in Asia. It helps to be a spiritualist when pursuing the spiritual aspects of martial arts, but you don't really need it if all you want is to beat up that small time bully over on yonder corner. Many heroes of myth and legend weren't calm or mystically inclined at all. The Monk, strange as it may seem, is as Western a concept as the Dragonshard articles are, though it doesn't really surprise me that Westerners fail to understand this. Asians don't like to think of martial arts as being dichotomized into armed and unarmed forms that are studied to mutual exclusivity. A good armed warrior specializing in a sword can probably apply a good deal of his prowess with a stick or with his hand. This is expressed when Li Mu Bai fights with only a stick or in Hero when the second most ultimate epxression of the swordsman is without his blade. Likewise, a good unarmed warrior should also learn to fight with a blade or some real weapon if he or she really wants to fight "for real." This is not to say that unarmed specialists are uncommon in Asian fantasy. As there are spear and sword specialists, so too, are there unarmed specialists, but this is no more than simply another weapon. The unarmed specialist should be decent with a sword, at least, and the prudent sword specialist isn't helpless without his weapon. So really, the concept of the Monk as an unarmed specialist, always spiritually inclined, and apart from everyone else, is a Western class (or a Western take on an Eastern myth, if you like). The sword and sorcery genre and novels in particular isn't a European invention, either. The first purely fictional novel ever to be penned is a Chinese one. While I rather dislike the fact that the Fighter and other warrior classes are almost completely inept without their weapons, I'm at least glad that the Monk is there to bring some sanity into the picture. Just as some people like to think of D&D as Euro-Knights and robed wizards, I like to think of D&D as a generic fantasy system, where I can place Monks and Wizards of all stripes and appeal to my sensibilities just as much as the next guy. I like anachronism as much as anyone, but I like to base my stories on mythological sensibilities that make sense to me even more. Barbarian Europe is interesting and exotic, but I'd rather not restrict myself to such a setting all the time, or even most of the time. The thing about Eberron is that it appeals most to my movie-over-the-top sense and this is more than partially influenced by things like the Smiling Proud Wanderer and the Ten Gods of Kung Fu. Martial arts isn't exotic to me. It's how everyone fights, and since warriors are apt to be caught unarmed or disarmed at some point, unarmed techniques are things that civilized sensible people train to do for such eventualities. This Dragonshard article appeals to me because it makes sense (to me, anyway). Monks are in D&D. For those of us who accept this as true, it only makes sense that they should have the same place in the world as that which we normally already know. None of this "wanderer from some region beyond the earth thing". They're just as common as a sword specialist or a spear warrior and they form communites and interact with people just like everyone else. I think it's a good thing that this is happening. If I can accept that whole body metal plating is a sensible way to make war somewhere in a small part of the world (and incorporate that to make for a richer composite game world), then I believe that even the most snobbish cultural elitist can eventually realize that there's more to fantasy gaming than knights and swords in lakes.
Lady Morn 12-17-04, 01:52 PM	The sword and sorcery genre and novels in particular isn't a European invention, either. The first purely fictional novel ever to be penned is a Chinese one. Actually, Zalaz Mavi is correct. Speculative fiction — the fiction of "what if..." which forms the basis for the genres of fantasy and sci-fi — is something that arose uniquely out of the European literary traditions. Good points otherwise.
Roxlimn 12-17-04, 02:09 PM	Lady Morn: I suppose that fantasy novels and writing arose in Europe that way subsequently, but fiction, and in particular fiction in the novel form and many related genre were extant in Chinese writing before Europe caught up.