Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Darkest90 02-21-05, 03:30 AM	First of all... NO flaming or rudeness in this post. Mormonism is a religion, not a cult, and you should respect that and keep comments to yourself. I don't want any criticism, either about religion in itself, Christianity, or Mormonism. Either you respect this as a civilized discussion, or get out of here. Okay, with that out of the way. I am really intrigued with a lot of Mormon mythology, their whole culture in the 1800s, and the cool stories that have developed. The reclaiming of ancient religious artifacts fits in with Eberron, and the whole 'hated exiles' thing makes it a good place to get a character. Weird doctrine and lots of sacred relics, temples, makes it intriguing to put into a fantasy campaign. I would like to see it in Eberron, since anything you put into Eberron becomes cooler. What would it be in Eberron? I am thinking of their Eberronese equivalent to mimic when they were in the late 1800s, just settling into the Salt Lake and building their first temple. A splinter religion of the Silver Flame, maybe? The whole Native American/Lamanite/Nephite thing that many mormons have a slight obsession over could work with Dhakaan. Instead of the gold plates, maybe it was some arcane instrument buried by the ancient Dhakaani before they fell to the Daelkyr. He drew a following in Thrane after he grew a little, but the Thranish launched a military attack on the religion and drove them from the nation. They then migrated to some frontier. What are the frontiers of Khorvaire? The Shadow Marches, Eldeen Reaches, Droaam, Valenar, Q'barra... It could be really interesting. I am definitely thinking that the religion started in the Eldeen Reaches, then moved to Thrane after the druids expressed no interest, where they drew Silver Flamers but were then exiled by the Thrannish into (blank) frontier country. Droaam would be very interesting, the Ebbiemormons being at least part of the Silver Flame and mainly common races, and unwilling to settle in any preconstructed city. They might attract a lot of the monstrous races that have a tendency for 'good'. Name for Eberron Mormons - Khraalites. I was just playing around with the famous Common to Goblin translator of Jhonen Olain's and came up with a word including Khraal. Perhaps the Khraal was a holy land of which either pre-Lhazaar humans or Xen'drik drow (equivalent of Nephites) lived in before being destroyed by the Dhakaani (Lamanites). The last prophet of these people traveled to the Eldeen Reaches to move a sacred relic from the Khraal to these forests for a prophet to come again and restore the religion. The drow worshipped the first primal forms of the Silver Flame, carrying it from the bastions of couatl-kind in Xen'drik to the shores of Khorvaire just after the defeat of the giants, and before the goblin empire. They lived in Khraal (reminded of their home) in a time when great beasts did not lurk in the jungle, building a large city woven into the gargantuan trees. From there they spread across southeastern Khorvaire, but were destroyed by the first goblin and orc tribes that were to become the Dhakaani. The religion was buried in the Eldeen Reaches, the day after the great battle that eliminated the drow/humans from Khorvaire. After the Silver Flame made its presence in Khorvaire, it was able to call a modernday prophet to restore its true power, instead of the heathen Keeper of the Flame that interpreted the Great Power falsely. Or so they believe. Whether you want to make their religion true or not is your choice. They took the name of Khraal, the last prophet that took the name of the ancient cities. Actually, if anyone comes up with a better name, it would be appreciated. Anyway, any other ways you think Mormons could be inducted into Eberron? A lot of people probably don't know much about this dynamic religion in the real world other than their white-shirted, tie-wearing, bike-riding missionaries. But, if you look back on them in the 1800s, they were very interesting. I'll keep brainstorming here, hope that there is some good discussion on the subject. Peace, Darkest90
ekomega 02-21-05, 04:26 AM	Maybe the founder went to Xen'drik and found ancient gold tablets carved by the drow. And then he discovered Jesus was a drow. And then he came to Khorvaire to tell everyone about it, and they told him to go to the Shadow Marches because they didn't like him. And then he did and built a city there and his followers all congregate there.
Endless_Helix 02-21-05, 09:41 AM	Interesting idea actually, Darkest90. Mormons do have a lot of "pulp traits". Since they are a Christian Offshoot (correct me if I'm wrong), I would place them as a sect in the traditional Sovreign Host religion, just because the SH is more prevelent than the Silver Flame. For instance the Religious heirloom could be a crown for the first human king made by Onatar or something similar. You could have small communities in the Demon Wastes as "colonies" rather like how the mormons were pushed off into Utah. Also, all religions start as a cult. Jesus had his desciples, Moses had his following, Mohammed had his group and Buddha had his followers. They turned into religions because so many people were initiated and became followers. Now that I think of it, The whole Mormon begining would make a great campaign. You obviously couldn't have a PC have a prophet character but they could be right hand men to the leader.
Just another user 02-21-05, 07:01 PM	My two cents kraalites in eberron are born a branch of the church of the Silver Flame that were subject to strong druidic influence, particolary Ashbound. Is believed that this religion was started centuries ago from a missionary of the silver flame that worked for years in the Eideen Reaches where he was influenced by the strong druidic traditions of that place, his name was Kraal and from him the religion took its name. This could be only a legend, because there are not confirmed sources, but this is the version accepted by the same kraalites. Their main belief, that brought to the scission with the main church is that magic in any form is essentialy harmful to humanity (used in loose sense). They don't believe magic is evil per se, but that when man use magic in the long period the bad will always outweight the good. Kraalites refuse totally the use of Arcane magic in any form and use divine magic only when and if is absolutely necessary and when they are sure there are no other, more mundane solution. even in those cases they prefer discrete spells over flashy ones and low levels spells over high ones (they don't use a cure moderate wounds, if a cure light wounds is enough, even if, or expecially if, they had to leave the patient to natural healing after it.) It is to note note that Kraalites are not actively against magic, they don't go out of their way to stop someone from using magic and don't attack magic users on sight (even if there are exception, expecially in comunities with a strong ashbound presence). A Krallite don't think that magic is evil per se or that a creature with magical power is something to be destroyed but just that magic is, so to say, unfit for human consumption, as long as magical creature stay on their own they have no problem with them. Particolary interesting is their opinion on warforged, while some of the most extremist see them as abomination that should be destroyed, the great part of them think to warforged as victims, innocent souls trapped in a unnatural body. The kraalites believe indeed that warforged should be destroyed to let theri souls free to go to dorlmuth or whatever happen after death, but they also believe that the decision to end his life could be made only by the warforged himself.
Darkest90 02-21-05, 09:04 PM	Hmmm... good ideas. I am thinking about changing the name of Khraalites, just because a friend of mine came up with a cool organization of goblinoid warlocks that live in the Khraal, and their name is very similiar. The Mardhuuls sounds good? Something that sounds Common but could fit Goblin phonetics. Whatever you choose to call them. I don't think that the Ebbiemormons would be a splinter-religion from the Silver Flame or the Host, actually. While the Host is more accepted, they probably wouldn't like working for an entire pantheon, and it doesn't look like there is a single god they could look towards that is part of the Sovereign Host. I was thinking of Boldrei or Dol Arrah, but they just didn't have the father-like aspect, being women both. The Silver Flame is one solid faith, and doesn't open much room for religious confusion. Instead, I think I'll turn instead to the druidic sects. Also, I had another thought... halflings! They would make great frontier folk, remove their chaotic tendencies and they could be very interesting to color the Ebbiemormons. They'd also be easier to take the place of ancient Nephites. I'd guess that 40% of this religion would be human, 35% halflings. Hmmm... Jharron Shepherd was a human teenager living in Havenglen, a place which despite its name was known for being a place where the druidic sects would come out to argue and fight for superiority. One of the way they battled in their peaceful manor was to try and lure the farmers there to their side. Several immigrants that came to the area during the Last War to get away from the borders brought with them the religion of the Silver Flame and the Sovereign Host, and while these churches never flourished, they were still there to participate in the religious melee. When Jharron was expected to follow tradition and join the followers of Boldrei, like his family, he felt no inclination to join. This sent him on a quest for the next year that drove him into religious interest, and he went from one druidic sect to another, seeking an answer. When he was fifteen he set out into the Towering Wood to find an answer, seeking a holy site of clarity to reveal which religion he should join. Due to what they say, Jharron was met by two divine incarnates, who said for him to join none of the sects, and that he would found his own, and restore the true church to Eberron from the days before the Dhakaani when the halflings spread a beautiful faith across all of Khorvaire. Four years later, after Jharron Shepherd supposedly was met by the spirits of ancient halflings and goblins who taught him the ways of the True Faith, Jharron Shepherd went into the great woods of the Guardian Trees and found the tomb of an ancient halfling prophet, adorned with Dhakaani artifacts, scrolls and volumes. At the center, he recovered the Dragonshard plates, carved completely from a large Eberron dragonshard. With the Agol and Dolkel, two other goblinoid seeing stones, he was able to translate the Book of Mardhuul, an account of the early natives of the land and how they traveled there from Sarlona, at nearly -55,000 YK. It told of the Great Sovereign, a father-like deity composed of all gods of the Sovereign Host, who was worshipped for ages, but corrupted mortals twisted them into nine different beings. When Jharron moved to Aundair to print these texts, he drew a large following. However, because he preached against arcane magic, and of puritannical subjects such as against alcohol and violence, the Aundairians disliked Jharron. Adal ir'Wynarn went so far as organizing a small army to force them to leave, after hearing repeated complaints against the 'Mardhuuls' of their occupation in Ghalt. The Mardhuul Exodus forced these pioneers to venture all the way from Aundair, through the woods of the Eldeen Reaches, and along the Shadowcrags to Northern Shadow Marches, where they finally settled in the northwesternmost tip of Droaam, at the source of the Saltdrake River (that runs near Yrlag) in a mostly uninhabited valley in the Byeshk Mountains that neatly runs from Droaam to the Eldeen Reaches. Their growing, closeknit community of Breggam's Vale has managed to survive despite the odds, and despite their need of secrecy to survive in Droaam, their missionaries are eager to start converting those of the Shadow Marches, Droaam, and Eldeen woods to the Saints of Mardhuul. Anyone visiting Yrlag for a good period is sure to hear of them, or so their peaceful paladins proselyting. *** Anyway, in response to some posts: I definitely agree with Another for his ideas on the doctrine. They wouldn't like arcane magic, in any form. Because Eberron has such high-magic and they believe in tolerance, however, I think that they would generally believe that long-term magic is evil and destructive. Druidic magic they would believe to be heathenistic as well. Divine magic would probably be more common among the Saints, and while they have no problem about using it as an instrument of their god, they wouldn't ever use it for personal gain, only when necessary, and it wouldn't be flashy at all. Only what is required (like what Another was saying). Also, about the warforged. I don't think that the Ebbiemormons/Mardhuul/Khraalites/Saints would desire to destroy them, even if they believe their soul is righteous. While many people think that Mormons are racists and disallow african americans from their priesthood, even before 1979 they still let them in their Church. Tolerance is a big deal in their religion, and I believe that warforged are fair game among Mormon missionaries just like any other. They would definitely be against the banning of creation forges, and I would think that it would be really cool if a creation forge could be found in one of the Mardhuul Temples in Droaam, to let Warforged gain a family (another extremely important factor in Mormonology). But, if you want them to be against the Warforged, they don't exactly have to be like RL LDS, so, go ahead. Anyway, really cool, thanks for the ideas. BTW Saints of Mardhuul Population: 5,100; 4,200 of which are located in Mardhuul hotspots such as Yrlag and Breggam's Vale. (42% humans, 36% halflings, 8% orcs, 6% goblinoids, 8% other races, including half-orcs, elves, half-elves and shifters) NPC Classes: 65% commoners, 23% adepts, 8% warriors, 4% experts PC Classes: Cleric 60%, Paladin 20%, Ranger 15%, Other Classes 5% (Barbarians, Fighers, Monks) PrC Classes: Forsaker The Saints of Mardhuul have a lot of individuals wielding priestly power. Nearly half of the men have the NPC class of adept, and perhaps for every thirty men have a level in cleric, with a handful of level 2 - 5 clerics multiclassing with either adept or commoner. The highest level cleric, Breggam Eldeen is a cleric 6 / commoner 3. Seven others of the Quorom of the Twelve hold levels in cleric, with the rest in adept. The Mardhuul Religion has the following domains: Community, Exorcism, and Life, though it would probably need a domain in itself. Any other comments, suggestions? Keep it coming, awesome stuff.
Just another user 02-22-05, 04:02 AM	I see a major contradiction in being against arcane magic and allowing a creation forge in your comunity. it is like if the silver flame had an army of undead. If My reasoning in making the mormons a branch is the silver flame is that the silver flam main objective is to fight evil creature, when you come down to it all the creatures the silver flame fight (undead, demons, abominations, etc) are essentially magical in nature. From here the connection with magic seen as a "bad thing" is only logical expecially if there is a little ashbound influence. 3) I figure mormons comunities are made prevalently of non magical classes, mostly NPCs class. They'd use the non magical version of ranger, paladin and bard (seen as a preacher-missionary) from UA, the only magical class would be adepts and the occasional cleric/druid, there are no wizards and if some children show sorcerous tendency (it came naturally after all), they are strongly discouraged from improving their skills in that field. While mormon are non-violent, they are not exactly pacifists, because being pacifist in eberron is a luxury that very few can afford.
Jasnkat 02-22-05, 10:45 AM	When Jharron moved to Aundair to print these texts, he drew a large following. However, because he preached against arcane magic, and of puritannical subjects such as against alcohol and violence, the Aundairians disliked Jharron. Adal ir'Wynarn went so far as organizing a small army to force them to leave, after hearing repeated complaints against the 'Mardhuuls' of their occupation in Ghalt. The opposition to arcane magic doesn't seem entirely consistent with the early Mormon point of view. For example, see what Orson Scott Card did with a lot of early Mormon history in his Alvin Maker series, where he set it down in an alternate America where folk magic worked. The folk magic and the Mormon stories fit very well together. Also, a major issue early Mormons used to distinguish themselves from other sects was that they preached that miracles and direct revelation continued, while other churches taught that the time of miracles was over. Though there are some Mormons of the anti-magic stripe in modern times (you know, the type who think Harry Potter is evil), that's a relatively modern development. A lot of Mormons, both in the present and especially the past, are very comfortable with magical stuff. The great songwriter Warren Zevon (who was not Mormon but spent some part of his youth in a Mormon household) noticed how comfortable many Mormons were with supernatural things, and he traced this back to the founding stories of visions/revelations/miracles. Also, note that many of the Mormon writers who have found success with non-Mormon audiences are of the SF/F strain--Orson Scott Card, Tracy Hickman, Dave Wolverton, and at least two MechWarrior authors are Mormon. And I may be missing some. I think a lot of the conversion of Mormonism to Eberron as described works, which is why I'm just picking nits with one little item. Jason H.
Docrailgun 02-22-05, 11:09 AM	While I agree with your opening, and the thread has some good ideas, aren't you defeating the purpose of "Mormonism is a religion" by mythologizing a real life religion for the purposes of your game? WotC has taken great pains to remove as much "real life" as they can from D&D; even more so with Eberron, which finally removes various Earthly pantheons and Outer Planes with names connected to classical mythology (Elysium, so on). I've personally never had a problem with Earth religions having a fantasy or game analog, there are plenty of people who do. I think you will find that there are probably more people who are offended by your translation of LDS to your game than people will be offended by calling LDS a religion. First of all... NO flaming or rudeness in this post. Mormonism is a religion, not a cult, and you should respect that and keep comments to yourself. I don't want any criticism, either about religion in itself, Christianity, or Mormonism. Either you respect this as a civilized discussion, or get out of here. Okay, with that out of the way. I am really intrigued with a lot of Mormon mythology, their whole culture in the 1800s, and the cool stories that have developed. The reclaiming of ancient religious artifacts fits in with Eberron, and the whole 'hated exiles' thing makes it a good place to get a character. Weird doctrine and lots of sacred relics, temples, makes it intriguing to put into a fantasy campaign. I would like to see it in Eberron, since anything you put into Eberron becomes cooler.
LordofIllusions 02-22-05, 11:27 AM	Isn't discussing real-world religions/beliefs against the CoC ? ~~~
Jasnkat 02-22-05, 01:26 PM	Isn't discussing real-world religions/beliefs against the CoC ? No. Religious slurs are, but real-world religion is not mentioned in the CoC. Jason H.
Endless_Helix 02-22-05, 04:07 PM	In Eberron Magic is used to fuel the economy, just like technology is used today. It plays the same role. IIRC Mormons are very pro-technology, so consequentially I would imagine that any ebbie-mormon would be behind the use of magic. If you want to bring in the Amish and the Mennenite(sp?) religions, they would basically be the Ashbound. Hmmm... "100% Organic Ashbound Chicken"...
Altaris 02-22-05, 06:11 PM	I'm a Jack Mormon, for family reasons. However, I do have a personal gripe about using real-world religions in Fantasy settings. I feel that including real-world religions in RPGs cheapens real-world faith, and there for real-world religions should not be included into fantasy settings. Just my two cents.
Just another user 02-22-05, 07:19 PM	Now that I think about it, I believe that in this thread I have confused the mormons with the the Amish, I'm sorry.
13x13 02-22-05, 07:48 PM	Being LDS myself I want to keep my beliefs and my religion out of DnD. Bringing my religion into it and then altering it would be too close to reality and very uncomfortable and is something I personally would avoid. That having been said what happened to early Mormons can easily be translated without really having any connection to the church. My people where run out of each town because of their beliefs and the power those beliefs gave them. For example we were run out of Independence, Missouri because it was a frontier town. The town made a lot of money off of alcohol, gambling, and prostitution. When the Mormon pioneers moved into town they supported none of those vices. They started to shop only in Mormon owned profits decreased for those who owned the casinos and bars. The started to become a threat to the power base and that's why they were run out of town, although our beliefs didn't help either. So all you need is to replicate a group that has unpopular beliefs (Like the ashbound, but most likely not druids) who wherever they went formed strong communities and were pushed out because they threatened the already established power base.
Darkest90 02-22-05, 11:00 PM	@Just Another User Well, you are probably right. If there could be a creation forge that could use divine magic, however, it would be fine. You make a good argument with the Silver Flame aspect, and like I said, you could go either way. I actually might make yet another change and make it part of the Silver Flame. Like I said, Ebbiemormons most likely wouldn't have any arcane magic. However, you could make it so that they could use the same rules as rangers and bards but express it as divine magic, even though it isn't. Sorcerous tendencies would be strongly discouraged, seeing it as a special temptation and trial that individual must overcome. I also agree that while Mormons try to be non-violent, they are definitely defensive of their own, and will be brought to a fight to save those they love. @Jasnkat You know, I have read all of the Alvin Maker series (being an avid fan of Orson Scott Card), and you are mostly right. However, I think that they'd take more to divine magic than arcane magic, and this purer form of miracles would flourish in Ebbiemormon communities. I have read articles on how, in this new generation, many Mormon writers and artists have turned to SF/F because they are taught that miracles still happen. There are many stories every Sunday about such miraculous experiences. Very interesting, thanks for bringing that up. @Docrailgun Well, I don't believe I am defeating the purpose of my statement. I am intrigued in the mythology and culture that has grown from Mormonism. I like its themes and would like to use it. And, I don't like when, just because it exists actually, it has to be restricted from my use. Sure there are plenty other ideas out there, but why can't I use these? To all who may be offended. I myself am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and all I am asking is that you look at the lore of the Mormons of 1800s, not the religion in itself. Look at it as a story, and it becomes a fascinating subject filled with fantastic elements. You aren't commiting sacrilege in viewing things in this way, and it won't change the way in which you hold true to the iron rod (mormon phrase there). Peace out. But please, let us look at this as a neutral discussion. We are civilized people, can't we talk of such subject civilly? As long as the religion is held out of the discussion, and just the tales and mythology that revolve around it, I think we'll do fine. @EndlessHelix You are very right. Magic IS technology, nearly literally, in Eberron. Guess I'll have to do a little changing... @Altaris I am not literally putting Mormons into Eberron. I am using their cool themes to build an organization to use Eberron. Plus, if I was using the LDS literally in Eberron, it would go with our doctrine. Every world in the universe (and there are an infinite amount of planets holding sentient beings) has an equivalent of the Mormons to preach a true gospel. Why not Eberron? However, we are stepping into religion, which is something I do not wish to do. @13^2 Well, everyone has their own opinion. Like I said, I am more interested in the themes and lore that surround Mormonism, the mythology, not the actual religion. Those themes are: An exiled religion, unique in certain doctrines others would deem puritannical A visionary prophet A unique, secluded community in the frontier, protected by some natural feature (mountains) The construction of a powerful monolith (the temple) Widespread divine magic A connection to a long lost civilization A multitude of religious artifacts from said ancient civilization Along with a few others that could apply to characters or small groups of people.
Korhal_IV 02-22-05, 11:36 PM	I feel that including real-world religions in RPGs cheapens real-world faith, and there for real-world religions should not be included into fantasy settings. I'm Catholic, but I don't object when people talk about how the Church of the Silver Flame resembles Roman Catholicism. He's not taking the religion, he's taking the background of the religion. And frankly, if someone thinks the background my religion is so cool he wants to use it in his creative endeavors, I think of that as a compliment. :cool:
imperialjunkie 02-22-05, 11:39 PM	To preface my thoughts... I am an evangelical Christian, and a minister to boot. And I love D&D! :D Darkest, I like your ideas. And contrary to some valid opinions here, I think that real-world faith themes and symbols have a place in D&D. They are already there. Druids, monks, clerics, and paladins are all based off of real-world faith systems. Study the Middle Ages and you will become very familiar with Knights Templar, Teutonic Knights, Jesuits, and other militaristic monastic orders that define the paladin and some monk concepts. Eastern religions cover most other monk concepts. And druids are as real world as you can get (except for maybe the changing into a Shambling Mound thing...). Read the BoED and you will find so many real-world religious themes, ideas, words, names, etc. that they had to slap a 'Mature' label on it. There is definitely already a place for creative expressions of real life faith in this game. I played in a Neverwinter Nights game with a DM who created a world with a religious system that mixed clear Christian symbolism and mystical Jewish themes. It was intriguing and creative. Our culture has become afraid of religion, thinking that it is only for 'private use,' and that is unfortunate. It can enrich our experiences, including gaming experience. I find it refreshing that D&D is so compatible with religion, albeit commonly polytheistic systems. It enhances my roleplaying, and the more I can insert real-world themes that I am familar with, the more I enjoy it.
Draggah 02-23-05, 03:04 AM	Originally Posted by Altaris I do have a personal gripe about using real-world religions in Fantasy settings. I feel that including real-world religions in RPGs cheapens real-world faith, and there for real-world religions should not be included into fantasy settings. It's a good thing most of us pagans don't feel that way, otherwise we wouldn't be able to play in nearly any D&D setting. (except Dark Sun of course.) :D In all seriousness, fiction (including RPGs) is a way for us to learn about ourselves and others. To exclude an idea or event simply because its real world analouge is held dear to ourselves or others merely hampers communication and understanding through art. Back on subject: I also enjoy these aspects of the Morman mythology and history. I think an offshoot of the Silver Flame (who's members would likely be more inclined to look down on internal differences) seems to be a great idea for your project. I would personally have the ancient artifacts come from the fallen goblin empires than from Xendrick, but your mileage may vary. In any case, I look forward to seeing where you go with this.