Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LaoKhanWei 10-21-05, 05:58 PM	Just what is the level of mundane technology in Eberron anyway? We have plenty of examples of equipment useful to adventurers to work with, but a lot of day to day life isn't covered in sourcebooks since it isn't immediately useful to adventurers. Magic can certainly bring the standard and style of living to around that of the modern day or higher but even low level magic is vastly out of the common folks reach. I'd argue that Eberron is certainly not a Medieval world in terms of mundane technology, closer to the 18th-19th century or possibly early 20th century. I'm sure lots of people will disagree with me on this so let's get arguing!
DoveArrow 10-21-05, 06:35 PM	I would say that if you're going for a real world equivalent, you're about right. 18th-19th century technology is about the equivalent technology level in Eberron. The only thing I would say is that there are some early 20th century equivalents in technology, such as the everbright lantern and the light bulb, scrystones and the telephone, and lifts and... well lifts. Also, Sharn feels more like an early 20th century city in many respects. However, those are just my observations.
LaoKhanWei 10-21-05, 07:01 PM	Yeah, Sharn has always seemed like New York in one of those 1930's detective movies. It's dark, nearly gothic skyscrapers loom everywhere and it's almost always raining. There's a lot of other things as well. *The lightning rail is obviously a train, duh. What's important is that it's almost entirely metal. Something that size made entirely of iron hints at Industrial Revolution to me, although true creation was probably employed in its construction rather than mechanized metalworking devices. *Their naval technology is nowhere near medieval. I'd say at least Age of Exploration. Elemental ships seem an awful lot like hydrofoils to me. During the early 19th century the world was moving more towards metal, steam powered ships, by the early 20th century they'd accomplished this. In Eberron it seems within 100 years we may have 90% elemental ships (it's only a matter of time...), putting them right about at the beginning of the 19th century. *Eberron has an equivalent to the printing press *They have airpower, and have had it for thousands of years in the form of flying mounts. Recently they've created airships, more or less equivalent to tactical bombers (mid 20th century). *The Last War seems an awful lot like WWI to me...in so many ways... *A huge amount of the population has migrated to large cities (Middle, high, lowclass) supported by farms (Lowclass). These cities exist for social reasons rather than military concerns. This sort of thing first happend on earth at about the Renaissance. *Gun's in D&D really aren't any more dangerous than mighty composite bows, and bows of any kind fire faster, are more reliable and cheaper. So of course the Eberron armies don't use guns. I think it'd be pretty simple for an alchemist to create on though. *General scientific knowledge seems to be at about an 18th century level. So yeah, 18th-20th century. No one wants to argue with me? :( Too bad
Thwyvylyn 10-21-05, 07:41 PM	I'd say late victorian. Trains are established but not everywhere. Cars haven't been invented yet. The Telegraph/Telephone were both in operation by 1875. Derigibles were becoming a real possibility but were still experimental. Zepplins were used to bomb London in WW1 but they were forced out of service by the introduction of dogfighting aircraft. Iron isn't a real advantage when elven woods are available. Also Ironclads were made to resist cannon shots. Eberron has no cannons in that sense so ironclading is a waste of resources. Also up until the late 1800s many ships had wooden hulls with iron plating as it weighed and costed less. I'd put the tech level at between 1890-1895.
LaoKhanWei 10-21-05, 08:06 PM	I was merely comparing the widespread use of steampowered ironclads to the widespread use of elemental ships, not suggesting ironclads or steampower was really a good idea in Eberron (although steampower might be). I agree that elven woods are much, much better than making the whole thing of metal, though I'd think a ship that's capable of supporting the weight and designed for warfare would likely be armored in Eberron.
Galahad_Knight 10-21-05, 11:34 PM	Well, from what I;ve seen of the actual technological side of eberron, the tech elvel in Eberron is aboutt he same as the generic medieval europe fantasy setting. There was no industrial revolution, there is no electricity, the power of steam is relatively unknown, there's no evidenced of advanced medical knowledge, techniques or advances beyond the standard D&D. People still make the same items wiht the same tools. Their only means of mass production are the (now defunct) creation forges. There's not even any evidence of assembly line techniques or standardization of parts. Why needs it with magic around to do it for you? I'd put them on the high end of the default D&D window though, call it 15th, maybe 16th century. Reinessance sans the gunpowder. That said, eberron's culture and *general* level of development are not standard. Culturally and developmentally they're much more advanced, ranging from victorian to early 20th century depending on the area and the aspect of culture. They use magic in place of science in eberron. Magic use is high, understanding of the principles of magic is high. Applications of magic is far reaching. If you pile the magic in with the actual knowledge of science and the like and call the whole thing a technological level, then sure, but I like to keep magic and tech seperate (though I do believe they can be used in conjunction wiht one another) sot of like magic and psionics. Anyhow, from what I've read and seen in the game books nothing suggests eberron's level of raw tech is any higher than normal. It's just that the magic is more widespread and advanced.
garner_adam 10-22-05, 06:46 PM	The truth is the comparisons to our time aren't going to work so well. First take a look at this list of inventions on wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_invention#19th_century You'll note that the people of Eberron although able to replicate some 18th century technology are in actuality not even close to being in the 18th century. Though because of this some ideas of those times will be surfacing. Looking socially they haven't made it to the 18th century either. Other wise they'd actually have a wroking democracy. Instead they're in actuality more like in the 13th and 14th century. So yes a lot of the IDEAS are there but they aren't quite being implemented yet. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_democracy Now let's look at how they actually live. Sadly the ECS doesn't go over this much but we are able to use our deductive reasoning to help us here. The weaponry of the Khorvaire is completely different in comparison to our times but we do know they use swords and body armor. The people of Khorvaire have not yet made a realistic method of carrying out large scale ranged weapon warfare. Putting them before the 14th century in these regards. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket The people of Khorvaire despite the efforts of House Cannith still rely on craftsmen instead of large scale industry. Some of the first evidence for ideas an even use of a factory was in the 12th century but again not on a mass scale putting them well before the 18th century. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket So in conclusion- the people of Khorvaire have some 18th century technology and accompanying ideas but actually live in the 13th century.
Bluebrush 10-22-05, 07:14 PM	Another element is that while advanced technology can be mass produced in our world, magic costs XP and also those oh-so expensive GP. So while on earth, light bulbs are cheap enough for even most in the lowest percentile of wealth, but on Eberron the Everbright lantern is out of reach of the common man. So I feel high magictech is out of reach of the poor with the exception of public works (street lighting, being able to buy things which come in on the lightning rail for a relatively lower price etc.) and the rich get the most benefit. Note also even simple magic, like prestigiation, does things the best of our tech cannot do.
il Kav 10-22-05, 07:30 PM	I think Eberron is quite Victorian: there are some trains, there are city light, there is press... and so on... Some elements are even in the early 1900 : Sharn is like a noir big american metropolis, there are flying boats...
DragonWatcher 10-22-05, 08:54 PM	According to the OP, the topic of this thread is mundane technology in Eberron, yet, nearly everyone is making the argument that Khorvaire has a more modern feel to it because of magical advancements. Since when is magic mundane? I would argue that Eberron is very much standard fantasy in terms of mundane technology. If magic were to stop functioning on Eberron tomorrow: 1. No more lightning rails, and airships would be falling from the sky. It looks like everyone would be back to horse or carriage for transport. 2. Sharn would topple. Not only skyway, but the towers of Sharn are possible only because of the connection to Syrannia (sp). Without this planar link, the towers would fall (they're not that tall because of good structural engineering). 3. The nights would be very dark indeed. No more everburning torches, or everbright lanterns. The dark places would be back to torch and lanterns. 4. There are no guns in Eberron. Contrairy to how certain people might play in their own games, there are officially no firearms in Eberron, and no alchemist has ever even had reason to research it. Anything that could be done with blackpowder can be done easier and more safely with magic. 5. Communication would be back to messages carried as fast as a horse can travel. No magic means no speaking stones, and you're analogy to the telephone is now just a rock on a desk. 6. The Sharn Inquisitive, and Korrenburg Chronicle are suddenly a lot more expensive and rare. Yep, that's right, the "printing presses" in Eberron are also magical, not mechanical... and if there were no magic then everything goes back to being scribed by hand. 7. And so on... So, while I agree that society in Khorvaire is very contemporary compared to most fantasy settings, it is all magic. There is very little to no technological advancement beyond the Greatsword and Plate armor in Eberron, and with magic as prevelant as it is, there is no reason for this either.
Psionycx 10-22-05, 09:12 PM	It's also worth noting that the difference between "mundane" technology and "magical" technology is mostly an academic one and is more subjective than real. In a world where magic exists, it is, by defintion, a part of the basic laws of nature. That being the case, the decision of some thinkers to apply it in a rational way is perhaps inevitable. It's also difficult to assign a "century" value to technological development, as this too is somewhat subjective. Not everyone on earth has access to the Internet for example. Nuclear-powered ships and submarines ply the seas for certain governments, but most other nautical concerns are dependent on combustion-based engines. Often, the higher-end technologies are limited in access to those who can afford them or their required power sources. There are literally billions of people in the real world living in conditions we would consider "pre-20th century". Eberron doesn't neatly fit any parallel. Even allowing for the magic involved in keeping it standing, the very existence of Sharn with it's massive towers bespeaks a great deal of proficiency in architectural engineering for example. What level of technology could be assigned to the monoliths of Riedra, which are ultimately devices? Or to the warforged, which are basically robots? The question always comes back to energy. Much of our technological innovation in the real world was driven by the discovery of energy sources to actually make the technology work. Until electricity was harnassed most technology was ncessarily limited to macro mechanical operations rather than the subtley that gave rise to telecommunications and computing. Without gasoline a car is just a finely-crafted metal wagon. Without coal the locomotives and steam ships of days gone by would have never run. Today without oil not only our vehicles but most of our electrical grid would be inert. In Eberron magic presents itself as an obvious, and much more powerful, energy source than things like burning wood or coal. It is even more versatile than electricity (and can in fact be used to generate electricity). So inevitably most "scientific" inquiry in Eberron inherently includes an element of magic. Anyone that tried to dismiss magic from any discussion of natural philosophy would be considered as being in denial of reality. This is something I agree with very wholeheartedly. It has always seemed a little absurd to me that people in a world of magic could ever really have a society that exactly mirrors pre-modern Earth. By it's very nature magic would reveal physical truths that would be applicable to scientific inquiry. However, there is definitely a divide between those who apply magic in a more "traditional" manner (wizards, sorcerors, clerics and druids) and artificers, who have integrated it into their "science". But nonetheless, their studies have clearly revealed things of use. Basic mechanical technology (architecture, metallurgy, etc...) is probably therefore quite advanced. However, it probably wouldn't even occur to anyone to try and build a non-magical equivalent to the Lightning Rail for example. What would you fuel it with? Real world locomotives ate huge amounts of wood and coal. Why bother to transport all those resources around when magic works just as well? That said, I think that non-magical printing presses, weaving looms, cranes and such all exist on Khorvaire. It's just that people use magic whenever possible.
LaoKhanWei 10-23-05, 09:28 PM	It's also worth noting that the difference between "mundane" technology and "magical" technology is mostly an academic one and is more subjective than real. In a world where magic exists, it is, by defintion, a part of the basic laws of nature. That being the case, the decision of some thinkers to apply it in a rational way is perhaps inevitable. It's also difficult to assign a "century" value to technological development, as this too is somewhat subjective. Not everyone on earth has access to the Internet for example. Nuclear-powered ships and submarines ply the seas for certain governments, but most other nautical concerns are dependent on combustion-based engines. Often, the higher-end technologies are limited in access to those who can afford them or their required power sources. There are literally billions of people in the real world living in conditions we would consider "pre-20th century". Eberron doesn't neatly fit any parallel. Even allowing for the magic involved in keeping it standing, the very existence of Sharn with it's massive towers bespeaks a great deal of proficiency in architectural engineering for example. What level of technology could be assigned to the monoliths of Riedra, which are ultimately devices? Or to the warforged, which are basically robots? The question always comes back to energy. Much of our technological innovation in the real world was driven by the discovery of energy sources to actually make the technology work. Until electricity was harnassed most technology was ncessarily limited to macro mechanical operations rather than the subtley that gave rise to telecommunications and computing. Without gasoline a car is just a finely-crafted metal wagon. Without coal the locomotives and steam ships of days gone by would have never run. Today without oil not only our vehicles but most of our electrical grid would be inert. In Eberron magic presents itself as an obvious, and much more powerful, energy source than things like burning wood or coal. It is even more versatile than electricity (and can in fact be used to generate electricity). So inevitably most "scientific" inquiry in Eberron inherently includes an element of magic. Anyone that tried to dismiss magic from any discussion of natural philosophy would be considered as being in denial of reality. This is something I agree with very wholeheartedly. It has always seemed a little absurd to me that people in a world of magic could ever really have a society that exactly mirrors pre-modern Earth. By it's very nature magic would reveal physical truths that would be applicable to scientific inquiry. However, there is definitely a divide between those who apply magic in a more "traditional" manner (wizards, sorcerors, clerics and druids) and artificers, who have integrated it into their "science". But nonetheless, their studies have clearly revealed things of use. Basic mechanical technology (architecture, metallurgy, etc...) is probably therefore quite advanced. However, it probably wouldn't even occur to anyone to try and build a non-magical equivalent to the Lightning Rail for example. What would you fuel it with? Real world locomotives ate huge amounts of wood and coal. Why bother to transport all those resources around when magic works just as well? That said, I think that non-magical printing presses, weaving looms, cranes and such all exist on Khorvaire. It's just that people use magic whenever possible. I tend to agree with everything you've said here. I'd like to clear one thing up though, I didn't originally intent to completely exclude magic from the discussion. As you've pointed out, magic is a fundamental part of their physical reality that cannot be ignored by anyone. Rather, it was my intention to avoid discussion of difficult to create, prohibitively expensive magic that would have no effect on normal peoples lives. Message stations, Everbright Lanterns, and Sharn all are things that are public enough to effect pretty much everyone. They definitally belong in this discussion. As for the topic of guns, well, if we use the D&D statistics it becomes pretty clear why they don't exist in Eberron. Let's compare them to crossbows: A musket is a very complex weapon to use, this is reflected in their status as an exotic weapon. Crossbows are simple weapons. Crossbow wins, 1 point. Muskets do 1d12 damage compared to a Heavy Crossbow's 1d10. Muskets are better but just barely, we'll give them 1/2 points. Muskets have a range of 150 ft vs a Heavy Crossbows 120. Musket wins. 1 point. While you certainly need to take care of them, a crossbow can be fired when it's raining. A point to crossbows since most of Khorvaire is temperate. With the rapid reload feat a crossbow can be fired every round if you don't move. A musket can only be fired once every other round. Another point to crossbows. Crossbow 3, Musket 2.5, they seem to be fairly balanced with each other but the crossbow is actually slightly better. If you were in charge of equipping an army of 50,000 men with a budget of 5,000,000gp which would you use? The musket costs 500gp, the Heavy Crossbow costs 50gp.
Psionycx 10-24-05, 10:39 PM	Well again you have to measure things in a practical manner. Remember that the primary purveyors of technology in Khorvaire are House Cannith, an organization that by it's very nature is top-heavy with magecraft. Last War military "technology" therefore leaned towards the arcane. Karrnath sent forth armies of undead and Cannith responded by building killer robots (which is so cool it hurts). I would suspect that most non-magical technology in Khorvaire is centered more around commerical applications rather than military ones (where they are readily eclipsed by magic). So as I said before, while magic printing presses, looms and cranes all exist, it is probable that non-magical ones see widespread usage, especially outside of the great cities. Possibly even things like the cotton gin are around. I can easily mechanical clocks and similar devices existing as well, the basics of such mechanisms having been mastered by articifers and long since passed into general use. Guns may exist, as they do in the Forgotten Realms, but as is the case in Toril the ability of magic to outshine, and defend against, such weapons may limit their utility. Which is not to say they don't exist. Just that many people don't rely on them. I've always thought that it couldn't possibly take a motivated wizard long to devise a Detonate Gunpowder spell if such a thing became necessary, or that such a spell would be higher than 2nd level. So depending on where you are technology may range from Dark Ages to 19th Century in mundane terms. Places like Sharn are almost science fiction, and futuristic only with magic instead of high-tech.
Edymnion 10-24-05, 10:54 PM	According to the OP, the topic of this thread is mundane technology in Eberron, yet, nearly everyone is making the argument that Khorvaire has a more modern feel to it because of magical advancements. Since when is magic mundane?Thank you, thats what I was going to say. They want MUNDANE technology. As in non-magical. Stuff that works in an anti-magic field. Stuff that does not require magic to work in any shape, form, or fashion. An elementally bound airship is not mundane technology. A glider is. As far as mundane tech goes, its at the same level as normal D&D. About 13th century. If anything, mundane technology should be somewhat stunted in Eberron, as magic is used to fix problems instead of technology. Basically, in the real world, you could compare it to things using electricity versus things that don't. Could you make a computer out of purely mechanical means? Yeah, you could. But who today would even try when you can use electrical circuits? Same thing here. Why would anyone want to make mundane items to do complex things when magic is faster, and easier to do? Sure, there's the fact that it would work where magic doesn't, but thats also like saying the mechanical computer would work where there's no electricty. These things would be religated to little things and curiosities, not anything big. Sort of like how you CAN get chemical lights that don't require electricity, but you never see them in any widespread use. They're basically religated to emergency kits and the like.
taski 10-25-05, 01:06 AM	I agree with Psionycx here. In my Eberron, a lot of the 5 Nations' technology uses magic, but non-magical technology hasn't been completely thrown out the window (especially in cases where it is cheaper). One thousand years of a unified culture with relative peace makes for a good time to develop commercial and consumer technology. Not all non-magical technology requires tons of fuel, and a lot can even be used just manually. A sewing machine that is run by foot-power is a good example of what I'm getting at, as is a wind-up clock, a unicycle, and a harpsichord. I'd say they have the non-magical technology level of 1780-1870 England, if you cut out the big things that require tons of coal or wood. To use elecricty and chemicals in our world as an analogue to magic and non-magic in Eberron, we do use electrical lights and trains, but we still develop new chemicals to clean our floors and to slay our enemies. One could even say that chemical research has become easier with the help of electrical devices (all those calculations are so much easier with a computer). Perhaps, in the case of Eberron, magic devices can help in the construction of mundane devices, like an everburning forge that always burns at just the right temperature to make steel. Steel then becomes more common and more people can invent non-magical steel items. Outside of the Post-Galifar Nations, I have next to no idea about the level of non-magical technology, like Riedra, Zilargo, or ancient Xen'drik.