Post/Author/DateTime	Post
stembolt 09-19-04, 01:01 PM	One of the things I have been drawn to in Eberron is of course the flying ships. The picture is one of the original pieces of concept art that introduced me to Eberron. So what do we know about these flying ships? The answer is “Not Much.” But lets look into the details we have and what they might mean. First off: Why build flying ships? Well, the answer is “because you can.” That’s where it started. Dragonmarks are a naturally occurring phenomenon. Hence it is a “discovery” that the mark of the storm can be used to pilot flying vessels. In fact the key ability is one specific power of the lesser mark of the storm. So perhaps to house Oriens chagrin, House Lyrander is in charge of flying ships. Why aren’t there dozens of types of ships? Who’s to say there’s not? Actually if they are built like water ships, no two will ever be built exactly the same. I think we can safely surmise that the description in the ECSB is a generalization. A way to use the ships in your game as transportation. It is certainly not intended to be a comprehensive look. So what are these ships used for? The thing to understand is that these vessels are an investment by businessmen. That means they need to make money, and lots of it. At 90kGP they are not cheap. And how do they make money? Well the Windwrights guild is primarily interested in transportation. That’s cargo mostly, with some passengers. If it’s not making money it’s not worth it. That’s the easiest and most straightforward money maker. So here is the start of a list. Cargo transport Passenger transport Courier – This is slightly different from transport. Basically it is the delivery of items that are too big or awkward to be teleported effectively, but are not bulk goods. Spotter – Piracy is a big deal to the WindWrights guild I imagine the worst stretch of ocean is crossing the Lazzar principalities. A helpful aid would be a flying ship to spot pirates while a fleet travels below. But that’s not all a spotter may do schools of fish and whaling may also like the aid of spotters. It may be that vessels approach cities from a costal angle. Any information from these spotter runs would then be presented to the appropriate customers. Cartography – A sailor lives or dies by his sea charts, with the addition of overland travel they will undoubtedly start mapping the land as well. What about warships? First off, like I said, House Lyrander is composed of merchants, not mercenaries. So out of the very small pool of people who can pilot the ships an even smaller percentage will want to be mercenaries. And then you have to realize that for the most part Lyrander is the only flying ship game in town. If you take a flying ship and circle above an army dropping rocks, you will devastate that army. It will just be a slaughter. That will not do much for house Lyranders popularity. It’s the same thing with hitting a castle. So deadly, just by dropping rocks. The PR mess resulting from that would be devastating, not to mention placing them as a very high priority unconventional target. Remember the dragonmarked houses are neutral in these conflicts. This involves a limited number of high ranking dragonmarked individuals. That’s what separates it from selling goblin mercenaries to both sides. Or Warforged or magic swords. Also despite the ability to commit wholescale slaughter there are much better military uses for a flying ship. Troop transport – The ability to place troops exactly where you need them is a key asset in war. This ship would allow fast transport of troops over rough terrain. Food transport – an army travels on its stomach. Napoleon was defeated because he outran his supply wagons. Getting cut off from food is a big problem, for an army, one that flying ships help with. Not to mention getting supplies into a besieged city. Scouting – And finally we come to deploying as a scout. Ariel observation is a highly prized commodity in warfare. Though again I will mention house Lyrander and their neutrality. Scouting is effective and may be handled on a “sell info to both sides kind of deal.” But then again scouting could be done by a guy on a flying mount or overland flight spell or a crystal ball. In this scenario it may be perceived as more fair because it is not just on house that can provide this service. What about weapons on merchant ships? The biggest thing here is a weight limitation. Merchants need to carry as much cargo as they possibly can every several hundred pound weapon they carry is that much cargo that they did not carry. Besides even if they had the weight allowance, why would they want siege weapons? Who would they shoot? Remember only house Lyrander has flying ships. What about a rogue ship? There are undoubtedly ships not 100% under the command of the WindWrights guild. That being said, there are not very many of them. Air pirates for the most part are going to be people using magic and or flying mounts to attack flying ships. A rogue flying ship could do this once and then become the target of the full resources of house Lyrander. Remember a rogue house member is out there doing the piracy. Of course I think the story would not go down like that. I find it likely that most rogue ship pilots simply bribe hose Lyrander to stay away. One of the terms being that Lyrander vessels are not to be attacked. Also for a flying ship ground targets are going to be child’s play. Zoom over and assault a caravan from the sky and then fly away with the wagons. What this boils down to is that other flying ships are not attacking any official flying ships.
Lujayne34 09-19-04, 09:10 PM	One word for you Spelljammer! Why not make use of a few of those designs? Not like the Dwaren Forges or Elven Armadas but the smaller vessels. Tradesman, Squid, Wasp etc.
Splendide 09-19-04, 11:03 PM	They're unconventional, but still made out of wood. While they do have some wartime uses, the fact that they are such open targets works against them...don't forget that a 3rd level artificer can make a wand of fireball and that they have poor maneuverability.
aelryinth 09-19-04, 11:47 PM	Spelljammer ships are huge. If you have the resources, look at the size comparisons between a galleon and a Squid ship. Galleons are what, ten tons? A squid sits in at 40ish? three hundred feet long or something? A Hammership would be absolutely mammoth by any standard of conventional wooden shipbuilding. Spelljammer was designed to make flying easier, especially between planets...the very existence of spelljamming spells, if they exist and work, renders flying ships totally obselete. Of course, the Dragonmark houses hold the economic power to make/purchase them, and Spelljammer ships are not limited by weight, but by Air Volume. Adding spelljammer to an Eberron campaign is ramping up the power level, as you would have to start an airborne arms race to keep up with the massive military potential of them. A Lyrander Airship is restricted by weight to what it can carry. If you can jam a thousand troops onto a squidship (hanging them off the sides, on the forward rams, whatever) you can carry them. And a Spelljammer ship flies far faster then any creature, and can circle the world easily in less then a day (go up, hit spelljam speed, come on back down). This solves a lot of transport problems while making suprise aerial attacks much easier. Think of the implications...even though I love Spelljammer too. Personally, I wouldn't have a conventional Helm work beneath the Rings of Siberys...unless it was totally carved from a single Shard of such. Now THAT would be a hotly looked for magical item,,,and then, what if the only people who could use it were those possessing a Mark of Siberys? Hah! ===Aelryinth
stembolt 09-20-04, 03:02 AM	While they do have some wartime uses, the fact that they are such open targets works against them...don't forget that a 3rd level artificer can make a wand of fireball and that they have poor maneuverability. A flying ship can easily sail outside the range of ground based opponents. While it may be visible it is an incredibly difficult target. Either it must be chased down by a flying opponent or it must be teleported to. Also while a person is chasing down the ship several people can be defending it. Lets say a couple of archers and maybe a spellcaster. Also while I liked spelljammer, their ships work off of an entirely different system. I would be wary about mixing the two.
Lujayne34 09-20-04, 07:18 AM	Oops I didn't check the specs on the spelljammer vessels. But what I actually meant was to use the floor plans and designs for different looking airships. Not the spelljamming ability. Maybe one could change the scale of the maps, and match the speed of the ships to the ones in the Eberron?
BullyBoy 09-20-04, 07:35 AM	I can cope with binding an Air Elemental to form a ring which allows flying ships. But why does a Fire Elemental allow a ship to fly? Also: Fire Elemental.... wooden ship.... hmmmm
MarkB 09-20-04, 07:52 AM	I can cope with binding an Air Elemental to form a ring which allows flying ships. But why does a Fire Elemental allow a ship to fly? Also: Fire Elemental.... wooden ship.... hmmmm I suspect they use some fairly fireproof laminates on airship hulls - that or permanent Endure Elements imbued into the vessel. Still, the choice of elementals does seem a little incongruous. One thing I'm planning on for my Eberron campaigns is to include a second tier of airships that use air elementals, bound into a spheroidal framework that's usually (but not always) covered in fabric, with a gondola slung underneath, which results in a more traditional zeppelin-like vessel. These vessels only use the air elemental for buoyancy, and its binding leaves it effectively deaf and blind, so there's no need for opposed Charisma checks or Dragonmarked pilots - but they do need a separate form of motive power (I'm using small Clay Golem-equivalent constructs turning crank handles attached to propellors in one standard model), and they have serious limitations - they're generally a lot slower than the Fire Elemental vessels, can carry far less weight, and are a lot more subject to prevailing winds and weather. In my campaigns, they'll be used primarily by House Lyrandar as a second-class backup to the fire elemental airships, and a training ground for House members who haven't yet manifested their lesser dragonmark. Some will be run independently, though, and they're favoured by any pirate gang who lacks access to a renegade or captive Lyrandar pilot.
stembolt 09-20-04, 09:02 AM	Still, the choice of elementals does seem a little incongruous. Only if by “incongruous” you mean “cool.” I think part of the charm is that it is a fire elemental. Part of the whole game balancing framework is the requirement for a dragon mark. If you were going to take away that restriction you damage the Eberron flavor of the ship. Also at the very least it would double the price of the magic ship and helm. To use “zepplins” also adds an unnecessary element of “magitech.” That also damages the Eberron flavor of the setting. I am not trying to be a jerk about this. If you (or anyone) wants their world to have a more Magitech feel, then by all means go ahead. Also if you want to take away the balancing mechanic in your world, go for it. My advice is you may want to consider the impact on your world.
MarkB 09-20-04, 09:46 AM	I know what you mean, stembolt, and I've tried to minimise it - my 'zeppelins' don't use any more 'magitech' than the Fire Elemental airships, and they have their own drawbacks as balancing mechanisms - each one costs around half as much as a Lyrandar airship (more for non-Lyrandar clients, who don't have the advantageous bulk-discount deals with the shipwrights), and can carry far less, less quickly and efficiently. There are probably twice as many of these vessels as Fire Elemental Airships in Khorvaire, but they have a significantly lower economic impact. But for me, whilst I agree that the Fire Elemental ships have a strong 'cool' factor, I like the image of dirigible-style airships in a pulp-fantasy setting, and I also wanted the flexibility of having a type of airship that could be reliably operated by non-House members, allowing for a certain number of smaller, independent operators.
Roxlimn 09-20-04, 11:13 AM	Personally, I believe that Fire Elemental is right on the money, as well as being cool. Fire has always been said to be the "light" element. In classic Aristotelian philosophy, IIRC, air and water rise when heated because the fire in them causes them to. It would make sense, then, that it is a Fire Elemental that is used to make a normally non-flying thing a flying thing. Air elementals, being forceful and light, are more thematically suited to pushing things along, ala Lyrandar Elemental Galleons. Not that Zeppelinish inventions would be out of order, but even in these inventions, I believe that involving a Fire Elemental for lift is better than using an Air Elemental. Now what about those flying ships? Well, what about them? The thing I tend to emphasize is that these things are brand new, never been tested things, completely unlike the Lightning Rail. The Gnomes of Zilargo don't really know exactly what are the limits of what can be built and how it can be built. Furthermore, what is contained in the Eberron book is only what the common person would know, not at all the kinds of important information that Houses would prefer to keep to themselves. Of course, the key point of the matter is as stembolt says, "Why build flying ships?" While "because they can" is a suitable answer for a new development, it is not, after all, appropriate for a recurring and developing technology, which is what I mean for Airships to be in my world of Eberron. In a world where Airships have to complete with Teleportation from the Orien houses, transportation cannot be the only factor in play for developing the Airship, and its uses will have a lasting impact on why and how these things are produced. Passengers: Now let's not mince words here. Lyrandar Seacaptains and Orien Passage masters are very hard to come by. These are people who can actually power these vessels and transport means using their marks. That's at least a level 6 character for Lyrandar and a 9th level character for the Orien Passagers. If we use the normal charts for determining the number of levels of these characters we must have in Towns, Cities, and Organizations, then both Lyrandar Seacaptains and Orien Teleporters must be very, very rare indeed. These are, by no means, your normal House crew. Since it requires a 6th level Lyrandar to power either an Elemental Galleon or an Airship, in terms of Marked members, these vessels require the same amount of manpower demand, with an emphasis on increased cost for speed for the Airship. At the same time, especially important people who wish to travel within Khorvaire quickly would not bother with an Airship. They'd Teleport instead. What you have left is a number of moderately rich lower upperclass people who either do not have such urgency, cannot afford the Teleport or cannot Teleport in any case, such as would be the case if the destination was out of the way, unexplored, or wild. Adventurers and various mercenaries or troubleshooters (such as Citadel agents) would be the prime, stable clientele for Passengers on an Airship, therefore, with occasional increases in demand from faddish uppper class adolescents and adults. This would place Lyrandar on a uniquely delicate position. By being the main mode of transport for people who wish to travel fast and far but wish to remain unseen or wish to travel to out of the way locales, it would, can, and does wield considerable political influence, whether it wants to or not. A chance refusal of a Citadel agent here or an especially brisk transfer of Airships there means a great deal to people involved in sensitive dealings. On the RP side, this means that to protect its appearance of neutrality, Lyrandar Airhips would have to be policed most stringently and enthusiastically. Lyrandar would probably bend over backwards just to protect both the identity and security of all those on board as well as those who control the Airship. When most of your passengers are wealthy and influential people, no security cost is too high. I expect Airships would be the safest form or travel, therefore. Only an especially high level character would be able to disrupt Airship travel, and even then, such an action would be tracked down and investigated with the entire power of House Lyrandar behind it. I see Lyrandar controlled Airships, therefore to be a good scenario for a mainly Skill oriented portion of the adventure, but almost never a combat site, except for high level characters. Rogue Airships are another thing altogether. Travelling for high stakes with high costs and powerful people on board, these fast ships are liable to be just as disreputable and just as rowdy as the Millenium Falcon ever was. A Rogue Skyship Captain must be on his own guard to make sure he survives all the missions he gets. A long-time Captain is liable to be very perceptive, very influential, very resourceful, and individually capable. In short, a high level character in his own right. Goods: The goods that Airships are likely to indulge in are very likely perishable luxuries or high cost goods. Since space is at a premium, anything that's on board had better fetch a high price when it gets to wherever it's going. I expect a fair degree of delicacies, perishable medicines, and rare spell components and such like. Since Lyrandar ships are already high-security just to maintain their neutrality, it helps that they also incidentally protect their most concentrated investments. The highjack of a Lyrandar ship would very likely be like a break-in into a high-security train or airplane. While you could be after someone important on board, the sheer value of what's inside makes most people care about the money first. Special packages are more likely to be taken up by Orien specialists, or by specific people within the Lyrandar Airship. If it's important enough to be in an Airship, it's important enough to send someone with it. The campaign implications are obvious, but less obvious are the flavor implications. Airhips make it literally possible to have anything anywhere, albeit at a high price. Special uses: Cartography: It's unlikely that Lyrandar would muscle in on this business, as the gnomes, especially of House Orien would probably take offense. To keep tensions at a low, I see World Maps to be a joint effort between the two Houses and then safeguarded within the gnomish Libraries. It's unlikely that Sailors would need these maps very often. Between mages who can Fly and Artificers who can make you things that make you fly, most maps would tend to be quite accurate, especially supplemented by the sailor's own acute instincts. With the same degree of effort, land travellers can apply the same to land maps without having to have to use Lyrandar Airships for support. Mainly, these maps would be useful to those who needs maps where few people ever travel, or those who do not have access to the usual maps. Spotter: I respectfully disagree, stembolt. Having the wind in your favor as well as a Wheel of Wind and Water allows Lyrandar ships to travel up to three times as fast as a ship of the same dimensions and technology. Being a powerful house with access to gnomish ingenuity, I expect Lyrandar ships to be well above the threat of piratical attacks, though they are probably the only ships that are so. Being even twice as fast as your enemy is a huge advantage in a sea engagement. Warhips: War is the most important driving element in the development of human technology, and the applications of an Airship in war is just much too obvious to be ignored. At the same time, Lyrandar cannot involve its ships in war without also trampling quite soundly on the toes of House Deneith. What's a few battalions of soldiers to an Airship, after all? I forsee the development of Airhips in war as being a collaboration between House Deneith and House Lyrandar, with Lyrandar and Deneith being quite keen on maintaining a monopoly on the business of Air warfare. I see Airships as being potentially the biggest deciding factor on the side of war. An Airship loaded with a couple Magewrights using Fireball wands is bound to be pretty devastating to a ground-based army, especially a ship as normally defended as a Lyrandar ship (or any airship!) is bound to be. Even completely ignoring the probability of a blitzkrieg style of attack which Airships make completely possible, the combination of firepower and mobility would simply be unmatchable. It is probable that to limit the destructive power of this new form of war, Deneith would have to declare a maximum number of Airship deployment, possibly as an added accord to the Treaty. Private vessels: Khoirvaire being a vast and by and large uncontrollable expanse of land, I cannot doubt that a few enterprising individuals with Dragonmarks would find and pilot Rogue ships. These ships cannot and would not compete with House Lyrandar, and would probably mostly deal in things Lyrandar does not care to do on its own books, the agreement being mostly unstated and tacit. While it is possible for an Rogue Airship to attack a Lyrandar Airship, with all the Houses helping each other, I doubt that such an Airship would last beyond a few months. Any such existing ship would have to be surpassingly elusive to even be viable. In fact, if such a ship did exist, its captain would probably be well-advised to mask his true nature as long as possible. Killing and destroying every target would be absolutely the minimum requirement. On the other hand, if such a ship did exist, the treasure trove its captain would amass in a short period of time would be phenomenal. It can strike practically anywhere and at anything. It can target normal ships, airships, caravans, you name it. Special Ships: It is beyond doubt that Lyrandar has Airships that it does not show to the public. Possible ships are Courier ships that travel especially fast but have low payloads. These are for transporting high ranking House personages and important people and/or treasures. They proably also make for excellent spying vessels. Lyrandar could have a Warship - a ship made especially for war by House Cannith kept in storage against misfortune. In fact, it is entirely possible that House Lyrandar has an HQ Airship in the works with a Teleportation target, especially for use when the House Matriarch comes under attack.
stembolt 09-20-04, 07:35 PM	For the most part I agree with your analysis Roxlimn save for a few points: Of course, the key point of the matter is as stembolt says, "Why build flying ships?" While "because they can" is a suitable answer for a new development, it is not, after all, appropriate for a recurring and developing technology, which is what I mean for Airships to be in my world of Eberron. In a world where Airships have to complete with Teleportation from the Orien houses, transportation cannot be the only factor in play for developing the Airship, and its uses will have a lasting impact on why and how these things are produced. This is the result of another discussion elsewhere on this board. Since the key element of the flying ships is the Dragonmark it follows that the gnomes discovered that they could build flying ships (either experimentally or as a result of some lost knowledge they re-discovered). I did not intend it as the sole reason; once you have a product it becomes a commodity that can be exploited. The Dragonmarked houses are interested in money and power so it follows that they would then work on developing this technology, as you said. At the same time, especially important people who wish to travel within Khorvaire quickly would not bother with an Airship. They'd Teleport instead. The more important you are the more people you need to bring with you. I can see even the wealthiest nations using ships to carry diplomatic parties. For a few reasons 1) Just because you have money does not mean you want to waste it. Teleporting a diplomatic party of 100 individuals with all their gear is expensive. 2) Security. The ships are relatively safe, they are not going to mis-teleport you. But bad teleports aside flying ships are almost as safe from attack. Not only that, you can use them as a headquarters, or carry a portable headquarters with you. That is if you fear the darker sort of negotiations. 3) Comfort. You are not changing trains or switching to wagons. You just fly point to point. 4) Do you really want to teleport into a possibly unfriendly area? Special packages are more likely to be taken up by Orien specialists, or by specific people within the Lyrandar Airship. If it's important enough to be in an Airship, it's important enough to send someone with it. Another clarification. If the special goods are a 2-3 ton statue, that’s a little bulky to teleport and a little delicate to send by train. Or for example grapevine seedlings in seed boxes. Very bulky and expensive as well as delicate At the same time, Lyrandar cannot involve its ships in war without also trampling quite soundly on the toes of House Deneith. What's a few battalions of soldiers to an Airship, after all? Actually Deneith is more in the mercenary middleman kind of business. Soldiers are the purview of Nations. That’s actually one of the reasons why airships are going to be a sticky subject. The pilot must be a high ranking merchant, but the soldiers would belong to the nation in question. This brings up all kinds of questions about loyalty and trust. Cartography: It's unlikely that Lyrandar would muscle in on this business, as the gnomes, especially of House Orien would probably take offense. To keep tensions at a low, I see World Maps to be a joint effort between the two Houses and then safeguarded within the gnomish Libraries. It's unlikely that Sailors would need these maps very often. Between mages who can Fly and Artificers who can make you things that make you fly, most maps would tend to be quite accurate, especially supplemented by the sailor's own acute instincts. Charts are one of the most important tools of the Mariner. Sailors live and die by their charts. In fact charts and sundry equipment fall third on the list of things a sailor needs (the first two being an intact hull and some form of propulsion). I see Lyrander navigators and gnomish cartographers working together (after all the cartographers are not going to get their own ships to go out mapping) to make the maps that they need. I also think that given their maritime background Lyrander would compile land maps as well. This would be less because they truly need them and more because it is so ingrained on them (though they do need them). Land orienteering is a very difficult and technical pursuit and sea navigation is even more so. It is only in the modern age of GPS navigation that it has become even relatively easy. Standard land maps are completely lacking in the kind of accuracy demanded for ocean navigation. Spotter: I respectfully disagree, stembolt. Having the wind in your favor as well as a Wheel of Wind and Water allows Lyrandar ships to travel up to three times as fast as a ship of the same dimensions and technology. Being a powerful house with access to gnomish ingenuity, I expect Lyrandar ships to be well above the threat of piratical attacks, though they are probably the only ships that are so. Being even twice as fast as your enemy is a huge advantage in a sea engagement. So the only ingenuity belongs to the dragonmarked? Piracy is a reality that house Lyrander has to deal with. If I was them I would attempt to be as cost effective as possible. Also an airship is a great deterrent. Not to mention it would allow you to concentrate all you fighting men. Not to mention the fact that in all likelihood not every ship is an elemental ship. And what would you do about that rogue member of House Lyrander? In any piracy equation the pirates are always favored. They pick the time and place. They are the fighting men. They can freely carry as many weapons as possible. It is beyond doubt that Lyrandar has Airships that it does not show to the public. Possible ships are Courier ships that travel especially fast but have low payloads. These are for transporting high ranking House personages and important people and/or treasures. They proably also make for excellent spying vessels. Actually they would show courier ships. They just are not detailed in the ECSB. Lyrandar could have a Warship Not being a government, I actually doubt that a “warship” would exist. Merchants and businessmen do not make useless investments. On the other hand I can see the government of Zilargo constructing such a thing for emergencies. (an addendum: making a warship is actually very likely because some author is likely going to do it regardless of it making sense in game) They may also have a flagship whose use is restricted to the upper ranks of house Lyrander. That ship may have a number of “purely defensive” weapons. It could even completely be a warship, it’s just not called one and may be camouflaged to hide its nature. One further note on warships. Very few weapons are going to trump simply dropping a rock or a bundle of darts. I imagine special airship weapons would be used. Like a chute-ramp for hurling boulders or a device that will spread darts, caltrops or burning oil onto troops.
Roxlimn 09-20-04, 10:43 PM	stembolt: Great stuff! I've always loved Airships ever since I saw Battleship Yamato. The more important you are the more people you need to bring with you. I can see even the wealthiest nations using ships to carry diplomatic parties. For a few reasons 1) Just because you have money does not mean you want to waste it. Teleporting a diplomatic party of 100 individuals with all their gear is expensive. 2) Security. The ships are relatively safe, they are not going to mis-teleport you. But bad teleports aside flying ships are almost as safe from attack. Not only that, you can use them as a headquarters, or carry a portable headquarters with you. That is if you fear the darker sort of negotiations. 3) Comfort. You are not changing trains or switching to wagons. You just fly point to point. 4) Do you really want to teleport into a possibly unfriendly area? Very valid reasons. Of course, flying in an Airship is cheaper and more secure than arriving by Teleport, but Teleports are faster so small diplomatic parties are apt to be sent by Teleport rather than by Airship. I do not see anyone making state visits just yet, and no other type of diplomatic personage is likly to merit such a lot of hangers-on at such speed as to merit an Airship. Either a small party Teleporting or a rather larger party going by special express Lightning Coach is how I see most diplomats would travel. Since Lightning Rails are faster and closer to the earth than Airships (giving earth-bound creatures an appearance of safety), most people would tend to use them, not Airships. Another clarification. If the special goods are a 2-3 ton statue, that’s a little bulky to teleport and a little delicate to send by train. Or for example grapevine seedlings in seed boxes. Very bulky and expensive as well as delicate Of course. Still, a shipment of grapes valuable enough to take by Airship is valuable enough to send a merchant to look after. Actually Deneith is more in the mercenary middleman kind of business. Soldiers are the purview of Nations. That’s actually one of the reasons why airships are going to be a sticky subject. The pilot must be a high ranking merchant, but the soldiers would belong to the nation in question. This brings up all kinds of questions about loyalty and trust. That's actually the point. If Deneith arranges mercenaries and Lyrandar Airships are mercenary, then by default, Deneith should be the one arranging for Lyrandar Airships to enter war, not House Lyrandar itself. In this case, there would be no question of loyalty or trust as Deneith would take measures to ensure the loyalty of the Airships. Lyrandar, of course, must stick as literally to the written agreements as possible to maintain its stature of neutrality. Land orienteering is a very difficult and technical pursuit and sea navigation is even more so. It is only in the modern age of GPS navigation that it has become even relatively easy. Standard land maps are completely lacking in the kind of accuracy demanded for ocean navigation. Standard maps in our world, maybe. In a world where you can hire your cartographer to fly high above the ground using a magic belt to get a good look at what he's drawing, maps are certain to have a degree of accuracy unrivaled by real maps. So the only ingenuity belongs to the dragonmarked? Piracy is a reality that house Lyrander has to deal with. If I was them I would attempt to be as cost effective as possible. Also an airship is a great deterrent. Not to mention it would allow you to concentrate all you fighting men. Not to mention the fact that in all likelihood not every ship is an elemental ship. And what would you do about that rogue member of House Lyrander? Not at all. Ingenuity I grant to the Lhazaar and House Lyrandar in equal measure. However, Lyrandar has the advantage of having people with wind's favor in charge of their ships. This makes their ships formidable both on defense and on attack. This being the case, as well as being canny merchants and a powerful organization in its own right, I do not see Lyrandar wasting time with an Airship by sending it all the way to the Principalities, unless it were going in that direction for some other reason. If your ships are faster, even without an Elemental Galleon, then you have a remarkable edge and would soon develop a frightening reputation for sea power. No Lhazaar pirate would dare to attack a Lyrandar ship for the same reason that no rogue Airship would dare to attack a Lyrandar airship. I expect the mere appearance to be under wind's favor to be a formidable deterrent to attack. In any piracy equation the pirates are always favored. They pick the time and place. They are the fighting men. They can freely carry as many weapons as possible. That's not true. In the question of piracy, the advantage always lies with the defensive team, especially if that team is Lyrandar. Consider the situation. While the pirates pick the time and place, they are constrained by when and where the target is going to be at any one time. This becomes considerably more difficult to do if your target is three times faster than you. German U-boats faced this disadvantage killing merchant ships during the Atlantic War. The reasons they were so successful is that they were able to maintain virtual invisibility and because the crew were simply some of the best mariners would ever lived. Without any of a number of these advantages, invisibility being the most obvious one, they would be at all successful. Consider a Lyrandar ship under attack. The wind is always in its sails. All it has to do is go against the prevailing wind to force the enemy to tack, and it can outrun any vessel afloat, even a sleeker one with virtually no cargo. Tacking against the wind slows you down immensely. Even a team of vessels would have difficulty using lion-type tactics to bring down a Lyrandar ship as it can start outdistancing them as soon as it sees them. Given all these things in its favor, I do not believe that Lyrandar would take the cost of an Airship and kill it on spotting for Pirates. Manning a considerably cheaper Elemental Galleon with merchant marines and escorting every last Lyrandar ship going through the Principalities would be cheaper and more effective. Not being a government, I actually doubt that a “warship” would exist. Merchants and businessmen do not make useless investments. On the other hand I can see the government of Zilargo constructing such a thing for emergencies. (an addendum: making a warship is actually very likely because some author is likely going to do it regardless of it making sense in game) They may also have a flagship whose use is restricted to the upper ranks of house Lyrander. That ship may have a number of “purely defensive” weapons. It could even completely be a warship, it’s just not called one and may be camouflaged to hide its nature. Airships are weapons of war. They were developed as such. Baker does not leave anything to uncertainty. He quite clearly says so in Dragonshards. Furthermore, to defend themselves from powerful airborne threats, they have to maintain a good portion of their wartime strength. Therefore, almost all Airships are modified warships to one degree or another. To defend itself from attack, to enforce its will in problematic wilderness areas, to maintain its reputation, and just because it makes so much sense, I have no doubt that Lyrandar maintains at least one if not a small fleet of expressly military ships for discretionary use. While the merchant houses are not governments, they are closer to one than modern day corporations. Corporations are wonderful inventions. They allow you to profit in so many more ways and means than a merchant house. In many ways, a merchant house is much closer to a noble family than it is to a corporation, and defense of its holdings in a direct military fashion is one of these things, especially in a land wherein security can never be assured, much less so if you depend on an external source for it. Following the betrayal of both goblin and elven mercenaries in the Last War, a merchant house would have to be mad to leave its military defenses to out-of-house sources. One further note on warships. Very few weapons are going to trump simply dropping a rock or a bundle of darts. I imagine special airship weapons would be used. Like a chute-ramp for hurling boulders or a device that will spread darts, caltrops or burning oil onto troops. I expect a company of well-trained archers to be much better than a bunch of falling rocks. For one thing, the archers have a much better lethality to weight ratio and can aim better. The only thing that would make simply dropping a payload better than this is if the payload were so destructive for its size that it trumps the archers simply on sheer destructive power. An exploding keg of blackpowder is an obvious candidate, but the various permutations of alchemist's fire and Greek fire are great substitutes, too. Rocks and burning oil are simply too bulky for what they can actually do on the battlefield. The absolute best power that you can derive from having an Airship is that it's the best defensive weapon you can use to supplement a castle. Quite apart from the fact that it can keep you supplied indefinitely, it can also easily attack emplaced siege weaponry with very little risk of counter-attack. Without specialized siege weaponry, and without hope of ever starving a castle out, most sieges would be doomed to utter and complete failure. In this manner, Airships change the complexion of a war entirely. With the emphasis on single large Airships on purely ground attack missions (Lyrandar would never consent to have its Airships attack each other), castles would evolve not in having thicker walls as they did in our world to compensate for trebuchets and gunpowder but in having better roofs to defend against enemy Airship bombardment. With an open courtyard being immensely vulnerable to being invaded from the air, I see enclosed Towers as being the mainstay of fortification in Khoirvaire. Likely, an enclosed system of Towers would be favored large fortification or simply a huge immense Tower with walls reinforced by Magewright masons.
Atlictoatl 09-21-04, 10:56 AM	In this manner, Airships change the complexion of a war entirely. With the emphasis on single large Airships on purely ground attack missions (Lyrandar would never consent to have its Airships attack each other), castles would evolve not in having thicker walls as they did in our world to compensate for trebuchets and gunpowder but in having better roofs to defend against enemy Airship bombardment. With an open courtyard being immensely vulnerable to being invaded from the air, I see enclosed Towers as being the mainstay of fortification in Khoirvaire. Likely, an enclosed system of Towers would be favored large fortification or simply a huge immense Tower with walls reinforced by Magewright masons. Roxlimn -- I'd love to see more development of your thoughts on this. I'd advise writing this up a bit more and posting it as a separate article on the boards. It'd make a very good one, IMO. Edit: my apologies, I accidentally addressed this to stembolt before realizing I was reading Roxlimn's post.
xcorvis 09-21-04, 11:31 AM	Oops I didn't check the specs on the spelljammer vessels. But what I actually meant was to use the floor plans and designs for different looking airships. Not the spelljamming ability. Maybe one could change the scale of the maps, and match the speed of the ships to the ones in the Eberron? Good idea, Lujayne34. Spelljammer deck plans are actually a free download buried in the classic downloads section of the main D&D site. It would take minimal modification to make serveral of them perfect airships. There was also an airship map posted on the Dunjinni (?) forums that was quite excellent and very detailed. I don't have the link anymore, but I'm sure someone will remember it. Also as an aside to the main discussion, in Sharn there are probably ferry or gondola/taxi type airships to transfer people between towers. It would be expensive, but it's got to be easier than walking up and down 30 flights of stairs and over 7 walkways to get where you're going.
Giant in the Playground 09-21-04, 11:57 AM	Just to be clear about fire elemental airships: Airships do not float because of the fire elemental. They float because they are constructed of specially-enchanted soarwood. They are propelled by the fire elemental, much like a rocket. Thus, yeah, there might be an economic niche for an air elemental dirigible, even if it was much slower, because if it was lighter-than-air without using soarwood, it would be substantially cheaper to build (and could bypass sticky export issues with the Aerenal elves).
billseurer 09-21-04, 01:10 PM	Good idea, Lujayne34. Spelljammer deck plans are actually a free download buried in the classic downloads section of the main D&D site. It would take minimal modification to make serveral of them perfect airships. I looked at this but I didn't think the Spelljammer ones looked good at all for Eberron. The Eberron sample in the book looks like a fantasy ship. The spelljammer ones are all birds or fish or something. They just had the wrong feel to me. There was also an airship map posted on the Dunjinni (?) forums that was quite excellent and very detailed. I don't have the link anymore, but I'm sure someone will remember it. I searched there and found this: http://www.dunjinni.com/forums/forum_posts.asp?TID=1350&KW=ship Tape your jaw to your mouth before viewing. Also as an aside to the main discussion, in Sharn there are probably ferry or gondola/taxi type airships to transfer people between towers. It would be expensive, but it's got to be easier than walking up and down 30 flights of stairs and over 7 walkways to get where you're going. It mentions something like that in the book.
stembolt 09-22-04, 01:35 AM	Since Lightning Rails are faster and closer to the earth than Airships (giving earth-bound creatures an appearance of safety), most people would tend to use them, not Airships I agree, as far as safety goes, trains are safer seeming. But there is a definite ease of use with an airship. I would liken it to a concert-trucking scheme. (Eberron does not have a trucking industry) Trains are not used due to the people and equipment carried. It is too hard to get off and on and when you get to the venue you have to get a truck to take it from the train. Now airships are too expensive to use for a concert in Eberron. But a traveling antiquities show? Or a diplomatic party? The money is less of an object. Another example is moving troops. Normal troop rotation, trains. Emergency on the border, airships. Low income, or low need for convenience trains would be used. High income, high need for convenience, airships. Of course. Still, a shipment of grapes valuable enough to take by Airship is valuable enough to send a merchant to look after. What about in this day and age? Grape strains can be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. They are valuable enough to send an attendant, but there is no need. FedEx will do a good job and they have insurance. That's actually the point. If Deneith arranges mercenaries and Lyrandar Airships are mercenary, then by default, Deneith should be the one arranging for Lyrandar Airships to enter war, not House Lyrandar itself. Well, the precedent would be set by looking at a few items. I believe that the ECSB has a case where one of the houses is defying Deneith by selling the services of mercs from Droaam (I will look for that when I get a chance). The other precedents would be, did Deneith act as middlemen for purchases of warforged? Or what about military specialists? Trackers and other experts? I expect that each house was dealt with directly in that regard. I suspect that Deneith would bring these charges forward, however they would probably be dismissed. Standard maps in our world, maybe. In a world where you can hire your cartographer to fly high above the ground using a magic belt to get a good look at what he's drawing, maps are certain to have a degree of accuracy unrivaled by real maps. I did orienteering courses for years in the boy scouts, my father is a geologist obsessed with topographical maps and sea kayaks and my grandfather was a Navy Man obsessed with naval history. (Your first question is “what kind of person is obsessed with topographical maps?”) I worked on GPS navigation systems for a while and one of my college roommates was an artillery scout in the marines. So when I say I know a few things about the subject I want you to understand I am not kidding. Modern maps are made primarily from photographs with data inserted from GPS systems and laser measurements from benchmarks. Eberron has none of these things. Flying actually would do very little for a cartographer (other than help moving around) without cameras, recording devices and ranging systems. Most people underestimate the difficulty and technical precision needed for coastal or even open ocean navigation. No Lhazaar pirate would dare to attack a Lyrandar ship for the same reason that no rogue Airship would dare to attack a Lyrandar airship. I expect the mere appearance to be under wind's favor to be a formidable deterrent to attack. If they did that the pirates would certainly run out of targets. No, if there are pirates they must attack house Lyrander. A rogue airship is an entirely different kettle of fish. A problem of completely different scale. That's not true. In the question of piracy, the advantage always lies with the defensive team, especially if that team is Lyrandar. This is hard to explain. It is a matter of ratios. In manufacturing you work faster and faster until you start making mistakes. At that point your speed compromises the process. So that’s the speed you keep working at. The same factor applies to a confrontational factor. You can have a certain amount of defenses, but every defense you add decreases your cargo capacity or profit. So you work the ratio. Dollars vs Risk (or GP in this case). You could say, if you are perfectly defended from pirates, your not making as much money as you should. German U-boats faced this disadvantage killing merchant ships during the Atlantic War. Are you arguing for or against the German Boats? Airships are weapons of war. They were developed as such. Baker does not leave anything to uncertainty. He quite clearly says so in Dragonshards. Furthermore, to defend themselves from powerful airborne threats, they have to maintain a good portion of their wartime strength. Therefore, almost all Airships are modified warships to one degree or another. I never said they were not. Scouts and transports do more for an army than an airship ever could. I am just disputing the classical notion of a warship. That is a ship loaded with ballista. Though I have actually determined a use for one (from this argument) an anti pirate ship is a really good idea for a flying ship. It would even need to be ballista equipped. No one would dispute the right to defend from pirates and an airship would be a very tactically advantageous defensive weapon. Though dropping rocks is still more effective, for the most part. I expect a company of well-trained archers to be much better than a bunch of falling rocks. For one thing, the archers have a much better lethality to weight ratio and can aim better. A rock dropped from a height sufficient to reach terminal velocity will inflict the most damage (mathematically). The height will be sufficient to be outside of all but the most powerful magics. The best offense and the best defense. That highlights Lyranders problem, the only weapon that is equal to an airship is an airship. So what do they do? Do they really want to have airship vs airship? Maybe (hey the price might be right). castles would evolve not in having thicker walls as they did in our world to compensate for trebuchets and gunpowder but in having better roofs to defend against enemy Airship bombardment. Actually strong roofs would not go very far. You just drop bigger rocks. They would probably use what we would consider elements of more modern warfare. Camouflage, intelligence obfuscation, decentralized command structure, mobile forces and so forth. Also as an aside to the main discussion, in Sharn there are probably ferry or gondola/taxi type airships to transfer people between towers. It would be expensive, but it's got to be easier than walking up and down 30 flights of stairs and over 7 walkways to get where you're going. Yes they mention these devices, but I believe they work off the planar zone that Sharn is in. Thus, yeah, there might be an economic niche for an air elemental dirigible, even if it was much slower, because if it was lighter-than-air without using soarwood, it would be substantially cheaper to build (and could bypass sticky export issues with the Aerenal elves). I never disputed the niche for such craft. My issues were: 1) Zepplins ruin the flavor of Eberron 2) Removing the control mechanism of the Dragonmark damages the current “economy of magic” in Eberron. That being said, making airships that would lessen trade with Aerenal is a good story. Making airships powered by house Orien is a good story. (Orien makes air elemental craft that are bigger but slower?) One of the story ideas I am toying with is house Orien perfects undersea craft. A reverse of the above situation. The story that the PCs become involved in is House Lyrander starts loosing ships and they suspect underwater pirates. I will do a rewrite of my original draft to cover all of the new info. In my campaign I will probably have a proscription on warships in the treaty of thronehold. The adventure would revolve around people getting around the restrictions, for example an anti pirate ship is a police vessel, not a warship. By the way there are two new ship designs in the art gallery. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/eb/20040917a
Unpronounceable 09-22-04, 03:59 PM	In a world where you can hire your cartographer to fly high above the ground using a magic belt to get a good look at what he's drawing, maps are certain to have a degree of accuracy unrivaled by real maps. Sure, but due to the curvature of the world, any large-scale map with an accurate representation of, say, a coastline (vitally important for sailors), is going to be utterly innacurate for anything inland. OTOH, city maps (or other small-scale maps), which (in the real world) tended to be drawn as if someone was looking at it from a tall mountain nearby (even if none was available), would be infinitely more accurate in Ebberon.
malkav138 09-22-04, 04:31 PM	On thre topic of airship combat: I am of the opinion that the rules presented in the Star Wars Core (revised edition because the rules for vehicular combat in the first printing sucked) could easily be tweaked and used for airship combat in Eberron. you could just say that the type and size of elemantal determins the crew bonus (if you want to still have crew bonuses). The biggest gap in the two rule sets is that you would have to have some type of skill to pull off the manuevers (pilot skill in Star Wars.) The hardness of materials is already presented in the PHB and your arftificers could have a wonderful time inventing weaponry for the airships. Its just a thought, but I think it could be fun.
stembolt 09-22-04, 07:45 PM	Sure, but due to the curvature of the world, any large-scale map with an accurate representation of, say, a coastline (vitally important for sailors), is going to be utterly innacurate for anything inland. That depends on what kind of scale you are using. A map of a harbor, no distortion. A map of Maine, minimal distortion. That’s why you use multiple maps. A map that covers less than 1 degree of arc is going to have pretty minimal inaccuracies, and if it is bigger than 1 degree arc you can compensate for it. OTOH, city maps (or other small-scale maps), which (in the real world) tended to be drawn as if someone was looking at it from a tall mountain nearby (even if none was available), would be infinitely more accurate in Ebberon. OK, no. The answer is no. Unless Eberron has a magical device that magically draws maps (which it very well may) the maps will be much less accurate than modern maps. Much less, several orders of magnitude. However even without magic map drawing (which is a real possibility) Eberrons maps would be pretty good because the Sivis gnomes (and the Lyrander half elves) would use surveying equipment to make maps. So in conclusion “Flying does not equal good maps unless it is very high and you have cameras.” Stylistically I would shy away from cameras and magical map drawers. Cameras are magitech and magically drawing a map takes all the skill away from the cartographer, he becomes a button pusher.
Roxlimn 09-23-04, 09:52 AM	double post
Roxlimn 09-23-04, 10:30 AM	Atlictoatl: I rather think I'm interested in such an article. I'll scrounge around for some material to see if it can be done passably. stembolt: It is too hard to get off and on and when you get to the venue you have to get a truck to take it from the train. Now airships are too expensive to use for a concert in Eberron. But a traveling antiquities show? Or a diplomatic party? The money is less of an object. Another example is moving troops. Normal troop rotation, trains. Emergency on the border, airships. Exceptions will always exist, of course. Not all diplomatic parties are important enough to merit the cost of an Airship, especially if the Rail is very competitive in terms of speed. Moreover, there are probably less Airhips than there are Coaches, making the concept of an Airhip network with connecting flights a bit of a stretch. You very probably have to wait for the daily Airship to dock and get that one, with very little choice in scheduling. Special scheduled Airship trips might cost much much more, in which case you will then have Special Coach services to contend with. Troops are absolutely not affordable as Airship drops unless they're very, very, very special troops, like the only troops you've got to stop an imminent defeat. Even an emergency on the border would not merit an Airship, unless getting a small troops number there in a particular time carries a special advantage beyond mere numbers. What about in this day and age? Grape strains can be worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. They are valuable enough to send an attendant, but there is no need. FedEx will do a good job and they have insurance. It's not the same. FedEx is a company with company concerns and public images and reputations to protect. Lyrandar is a powerful merchant house that does not really have competition. FedEx has insurance. Neither House Sivis nor the Dwarves offer such. In modern parlance, there is less of a need to send an attendant because the buyer is more powerful than the seller. In an early industrial setting with an experimental form of travel, this is simply cannot be true. In terms of economic technology, Eberron is closer to Renaissance Italy than it is more modern Wall Street. Well, the precedent would be set by looking at a few items. I believe that the ECSB has a case where one of the houses is defying Deneith by selling the services of mercs from Droaam (I will look for that when I get a chance). The other precedents would be, did Deneith act as middlemen for purchases of warforged? Or what about military specialists? Trackers and other experts? I expect that each house was dealt with directly in that regard. I suspect that Deneith would bring these charges forward, however they would probably be dismissed. I doubt it very much. Lyrandar does not seem to be a very warlike house. It is very much in character for them to allow Deneith to handle the details of a deal. It's not like they won't earn anything from it. Moreover, hiring an Airship is considerably more important than acquiring a few thousand mercenaries or warforged. Think Spacing Guild in Dune for the level of influence I'm thinking of. The side in a particular conflict that does not have Airships would be terribly disadvantaged. The Five Nations would have probably tacitly agreed to have Deneith broker the deals to keep Airship hirings at a reasonable level. No reason to hand over the wealth of Khorvaire to House Lyrandar. Most people underestimate the difficulty and technical precision needed for coastal or even open ocean navigation. I meant real maps drawn by hand. In any case, it does not invalidate my point. You don't need to hire an Airship to map a particular place. Just purchase a flying item and do it at your convenience. If they did that the pirates would certainly run out of targets. No, if there are pirates they must attack House Lyrander. I don't see it. House Lyrandar probably has a good hold on ships and certainly a virtual monopoly on flight, but the sea is another matter altogether. House Lyrandar's abilities can render pirates completely obsolete. They can run ships at three times the speed and potentially destroy an entire Pirate fleet using an ambush with one single Greater Dragonmark holder or several Least Dargonmark holders. That kind of advantage simply can't be matched. Compare the speed of a car going 20 kph and another going 60. As long as the other driver can see you, you have no chance of catching him or escaping if he has a mind to capture you. Since Pirates do exist, it follows that a substantial amount of shipping is not done by House Lyrandar and that most House Lyrandar ships would not be bothered by normal pirates. In such a case, having an Airship around just to spot is a complete waste of resources. You could say, if you are perfectly defended from pirates, your not making as much money as you should. This assumes complete equality between the Pirates and House Lyrandar. There is none. House Lyrandar ships get to use wind's favor, the pirates do not. It doesn't cost you extra to put a person in a ship if you're going to put that person in that ship anyway. Are you arguing for or against the German Boats? Against. A German Boat that was sighted immediately gave up the strike, even with their relatively longer range torpedoes. Pirates have ballistas. The reason is because the merchant ships, while not going three times as fast as the U boats, still go fast enough to avoid them altogether, or at least avoid them enough not to make a strike worthwhile. I never said they were not. Scouts and transports do more for an army than an airship ever could. I am just disputing the classical notion of a warship. That is a ship loaded with ballista. Baker proposes a ship loaded with Archers instead. Though I have actually determined a use for one (from this argument) an anti pirate ship is a really good idea for a flying ship. It would even need to be ballista equipped. No one would dispute the right to defend from pirates and an airship would be a very tactically advantageous defensive weapon. Though dropping rocks is still more effective, for the most part. I rather think not. Dropping large rocks from a height with good aim is a lot harder than you think. A good proportion of bombs never find their mark, which is why carpet bombing used to be the only way to ensure you hit your target. Of course, there's dive bombing, but I don't see an Airship doing that maneuver. A bomber loaded with rocks would be practically worthless. Better than rocks would be a spread of small flammable materials, like containers with Greek fire. A rock dropped from a height sufficient to reach terminal velocity will inflict the most damage (mathematically). The height will be sufficient to be outside of all but the most powerful magics. The best offense and the best defense. It's got to hit to do damage. That highlights Lyranders problem, the only weapon that is equal to an airship is an airship. So what do they do? Do they really want to have airship vs airship? Maybe (hey the price might be right). The only price that will merit an airship to airhips battle would be enough to rebuild the Airship all over again, and never against another Lyrandar Airship. Since I see Lyrandar as having a virtual monopoly on Airships, I don't see that happening very often. There is no price Lyrandar would accept for one of its Airships and its Dragonmarked captain to fight earnestly with another of its Airships and Dragonmarked captain. Actually strong roofs would not go very far. You just drop bigger rocks. There is a limit on how big a rock an Airship could drop, and you would normally want small rocks so you can attack many targets, and attack again in the very likely event that you miss. The biggest cannonball ever to shoot out of a barrel is one ton, but I doubt Lyrandar can afford to carry such heavy objects. Moreover, denser rocks are better as they would provide more impact pressure, but the builders can simply use stronger rocks as well. Slanting the tower roofs so the rocks would slide off rather than punch through is definitely a very strong innovation, and likely enough to stand up to rock dropping. Even if you did manage to punch a hole through the roof, what then? Pour in more rocks? You wouldn't even know if you hit something worth hitting. Trying to bring down a vertical wall by dropping rocks on it from a height strikes me as highly ineffective. There's a reason catapults threw rocks mostly horizontally rather than mostly vertically. They would probably use what we would consider elements of more modern warfare. Camouflage, intelligence obfuscation, decentralized command structure, mobile forces and so forth. I can't see that. It was only very recently that any nation could field in serious artillery in the form of Eternal Fireball Wand wielding Magewrights, and even so, a trained Longbow troop would probably outdo them in the long run. With Wizards being at a very high premium (see Demographics), most Nations wouldn't have anything that really discouraged mass troops formations. Moreover, without griffon attack squads and similar fast moving troops, most military minds probably wouldn't come up with the idea of a blitzkrieg until someone tried to do that using Airships as both mobile armor and troop transport. No. I think that the massed foot soldier armies are still very much in vogue in Khorvaire.
Unpronounceable 09-23-04, 04:00 PM	OK, no. The answer is no. Unless Eberron has a magical device that magically draws maps (which it very well may) the maps will be much less accurate than modern maps. Who said anything about modern maps? Of COURSE modern maps would be more accurate...I was comparing real-life maps (such as this (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/dublin_1610_1896.jpg) from not even 500 years ago) to what would be available in Eberron. But that holds true for the ocean maps too...sailing ships wouldn't have had the now-standard dozens-to-hundreds of maps available in differing scale, largely because they wouldn't have needed them - most ships would have sailed a fairly consistent route between a few reasonably close ports - only a few ships would be outfitted to sail distances large enough to need a map that covers intercontinental distances - and those that do, would probably rely on ded. reckoning, and previous logs of the journey.
stembolt 09-24-04, 01:49 AM	Not all diplomatic parties are important enough to merit the cost of an Airship, especially if the Rail is very competitive in terms of speed. Well, not the Shadow Marshes but any of the major countries. If Breland is sending Diplomats to Thrane, they will use an airship without exception. Troops are absolutely not affordable as Airship drops unless they're very, very, very special troops, like the only troops you've got to stop an imminent defeat. I think that you underestimate the budgets of nations. I have worked for the good old “military industrial complex” and the military does everything that civilians do but safer, faster and better. If you can ship merchant goods and make a profit, you can send troops. Besides the threat is even more important than the fact. “Sure the border is not that well defended but if they needed to they could get an army here.” “We had better not attack then.” It's not the same. FedEx is a company with company concerns and public images and reputations to protect. Lyrandar is a powerful merchant house that does not really have competition. FedEx has insurance. Neither House Sivis nor the Dwarves offer such. In modern parlance, there is less of a need to send an attendant because the buyer is more powerful than the seller. In an early industrial setting with an experimental form of travel, this is simply cannot be true. In terms of economic technology, Eberron is closer to Renaissance Italy than it is more modern Wall Street. They are merchants, of course they have an image to protect. And this is the one area they do have competition, house Orien and the lightening rail. Also, in the renaissance you would be able to send a shipment to a reputable business without an attendant. And insurance existed during the renaissance. The modern system of banking was created after the crusades by the Knights Templar. In addition to that Eberron is much more like the Early modern era than it is like the renaissance. Victorian (1837-1901) for example, just replace steam and gunpowder with magic. Incidentally securities and stock trading was in place by 1698 in London. I doubt it very much. Lyrandar does not seem to be a very warlike house. It is very much in character for them to allow Deneith to handle the details of a deal. Respectfully I would have to say “No chance.” Lyrander is not going to give a percentage of profit to another house for nothing. They negotiate all other contacts, they would negotiate this one. I meant real maps drawn by hand. In any case, it does not invalidate my point. You don't need to hire an Airship to map a particular place. Just purchase a flying item and do it at your convenience. So you, your team of 6 (that’s an extremely small team btw) and your half a ton of equipment will just get some flying items? No, I think you’d just hire the people who fly things around professionally. I don't see it. House Lyrandar probably has a good hold on ships and certainly a virtual monopoly on flight, but the sea is another matter altogether. House Lyrandar's abilities can render pirates completely obsolete. The pirates can have magic too. Or they can use trained sea serpents. Or they can work with aquatic races. Or they can sneak up invisibly. Or they can do…anything. Lyrander is in a sense a one trick pony. Since Pirates do exist, it follows that a substantial amount of shipping is not done by House Lyrandar and that most House Lyrandar ships would not be bothered by normal pirates. If Lyrander was the only group not attacked by pirates they would quickly become the only shippers used. In such a case, having an Airship around just to spot is a complete waste of resources Except when it’s not. Assuming occasional non perfect circumstances it is easy to imagine a Lyrander manager having a bunch of normal vessels going out (not every ship in the sea can have a 6th level pilot) and thinking “what should I do about pirates?” Against. A German Boat that was sighted immediately gave up the strike, even with their relatively longer range torpedoes. This example really does not apply. U-Boat were slow stealth vessels, engaging in long chases is not their forte. Baker proposes a ship loaded with Archers instead. Has Keith suggested anything conventional yet? Besides you missed his point. Instead of having warships, there were merchant ships with some troops on them. Which would fall perfectly into what I have been talking about all along. I rather think not. Dropping large rocks from a height with good aim is a lot harder than you think. A good proportion of bombs never find their mark, which is why carpet bombing used to be the only way to ensure you hit your target. Of course, there's dive bombing, but I don't see an Airship doing that maneuver. A bomber loaded with rocks would be practically worthless. Really? It is in fact exactly as hard as I think. You just need forward speed, coefficient of drag, Mass of projectile and height. That and you are trying to hit one big castle. The reason they carpet bombed was due to the strategies I outlined above. Which they would use, which would negate the rock bomb effectiveness. Better than rocks would be a spread of small flammable materials, like containers with Greek fire. Well, I would use 50 flasks of oil and 2 alchemists fire, but same idea. Bundle them like grapeshot and watch them spread. But lets not forget spreading slingshot stones, caltrops or some kind of chemical weapon (skunk extract). Or even light rods during night combat. Rocks are for busting castles. Other weapons are for troops. The only price that will merit an airship to airhips battle would be enough to rebuild the Airship all over again, and never against another Lyrandar Airship. Since I see Lyrandar as having a virtual monopoly on Airships, I don't see that happening very often. There is no price Lyrandar would accept for one of its Airships and its Dragonmarked captain to fight earnestly with another of its Airships and Dragonmarked captain. Never say never. The price may not be in coin or there may be a really big amount of coins at stake. There is a limit on how big a rock an Airship could drop Right, but when it costs incredible amounts of money to protect against regular rocks, that’s money you are not spending elsewhere. Now that you waste money on roofs I will just find where you cut your money from. The techniques I suggest will be much cheaper. I can't see that. None of those things I suggest involve any magic (though magic would aid). Camouflage is a simple as using canvas tarps. What’s under the tarps? Is it soldiers or nothing? most ships would have sailed a fairly consistent route between a few reasonably close ports Most ships are local vessels. Some ships are short range traders. And a small number of ships are the elite long range traders, House Lyranders Ace ships. The ones we are talking about. (such as this from not even 500 years ago) to what would be available in Eberron. That’s funny, not even 5 hundred years ago and its an abstract town map. Look up nautical maps the detals from that time are much better. Not to mention you are off in comparable technology a few hundred years. Using mechanical apparatus Eberron should be able to produce maps from the early 1800s.
Roxlimn 09-24-04, 04:37 PM	stembolt: Very cool, man. I've not always had such fun discussing a topic on the boards. Well, not the Shadow Marshes but any of the major countries. If Breland is sending Diplomats to Thrane, they will use an airship without exception. I would tend to disagree here. Lightning Rail is almost as fast or faster depending on where you're going and Special Coaches and trips are always possible. Even in modern travel, if a train can get you there in time comparable to a plane, most people would pick the train instead, even if planes are statistically safer. These things aren't always logical. People are scared of flying. So if Breland is sending diplomatic corps to Thrane, I strongly believe that Special Coach is how it would be done. I think that you underestimate the budgets of nations. I have worked for the good old “military industrial complex” and the military does everything that civilians do but safer, faster and better. If you can ship merchant goods and make a profit, you can send troops. I think not. No military of any nation has regular Dragonmarked members and the Airships are produced exclusively from Zilargo. So no, no military in Eberron can manage Airships like the Lyrandar can. Moreover, sending merchant goods is largely a matter of demand. You can make a good profit sending VCDs to almost anywhere on the planet, but you don't have military coverage of nearly the same scope, even US military, the most powerful military in the world. Budget is only part of the issue. Rail, I think is going to be more influential as a method of sending troops, because it's been around longer, and is faster. The fact that it's cheaper is good, but that's not the only reason. Besides the threat is even more important than the fact. “Sure the border is not that well defended but if they needed to they could get an army here.” “We had better not attack then.” You can move troops more efficiently with Rail. They are merchants, of course they have an image to protect. And this is the one area they do have competition, house Orien and the lightening rail. Merchant princes and merchant houses did pretty much what they wanted to do. These are very powerful medieval figures. A company can protect itself from legal issues through lawyers and such. A merchant house has no such recourse. If a king wants it out, it goes. On the other hand, it has more power over customers than modern companies now have. Thus, I don't see protection of the quality of transport as being a large concern for Airship commerce. On the other hand, where the Rail goes, the Airships simply cannot compete. They're too expensive, so no competition there. If the Airship goes there exclusively, it's Lyrandar territory. If not, it's Orien territory. This goes beyond mere market forces. These things are merchant houses, not companies, and very friendly merchant houses at that. They are much more likely to cooperate in maintaining a cartel or a monopoly than in honestly competing with each other. Also, in the renaissance you would be able to send a shipment to a reputable business without an attendant. Situational. I'm thinking Cesare Borgia level Italy here. Silk road level trade. Certainty was not assured. And insurance existed during the renaissance. The modern system of banking was created after the crusades by the Knights Templar. Did they ensure large and expensive caravans on a regular basis? In addition to that Eberron is much more like the Early modern era than it is like the renaissance. Victorian (1837-1901) for example, just replace steam and gunpowder with magic. Incidentally securities and stock trading was in place by 1698 in London. That's largely a matter of interpretation. The continent's just been under the influence of a World War for close to a century. Many economic systems are not at all outlined and some practices and portraits suggest that Eberron is far from being modern. Respectfully I would have to say “No chance.” Lyrander is not going to give a percentage of profit to another house for nothing. They negotiate all other contacts, they would negotiate this one. Not for nothing. An Airship is a very, very serious affair, being one of the most powerful units in an army. A single ill-advised action by a single Lyrandar house officer during the war can remove the illusion of neutrality very decisively. It doesn't even have to be that obvious. If a kingdom decides it's profitable to take over House Lyrandar and it can, then it will find whatever reason it needs to do so. Brokering mercenary deals through Deneith offers a sheild and a scapegoat. With Deneith being responsible for ensuring Airship loyalty and service during its tenure of hire in the war, Lyrandar protects itself from accusations of favoritism and can allow another House to take mercantile hits when it needs to. Honestly speaking, it's a win-win situation and I can't see Lyrandar not taking advantage of it. So you, your team of 6 (that’s an extremely small team btw) and your half a ton of equipment will just get some flying items? No, I think you’d just hire the people who fly things around professionally. For thousands of gold pieces a day? That's one very expensive map. I don't see Eberron maps being done the same way as modern maps. Why would you need a team of six and what kind of equipment would they be needing? The pirates can have magic too. Or they can use trained sea serpents. Or they can work with aquatic races. Or they can sneak up invisibly. Or they can do…anything. Lyrander is in a sense a one trick pony. No, it isn't. That's the thing. Lyrandar's been around a long time. Longer than many pirates have been around. It's been around the block and knows all the tricks. For the most part, I don't expect pirates to be packing more than a pair of wizards, if then. Eberron's demographics are depressing, especially for really small settlements, like pirate bases are apt to be. If there's a pirate trick to sneak up on a ship, you can bet Lyrandar captains have been informed of how to deal with it. Lyrandar can hire aquatic mercenaries. They can get trained sea serpents. If you can make a ship invisible, you can bet Lyrandar'll pay top gold to see it in their books. I think you're seriously underestimating Lyrandar on this count. If Lyrander was the only group not attacked by pirates they would quickly become the only shippers used. Being the best shippers around doesn't automatically mean you'll kill the competition. Despite market forces, substandard items are not at all taboo in the marketplace. I expect that Lyrandar, requiring special persons to pilot their ships and exclusively using soarwood to protect their rare captains, would position itself as top dog, without even trying to kill off lower quality merchant shipping. Sure, it could compete by charging less, but it wouldn't necessarily get more money for it. Why kill competition just to lose money? The moment you raise your prices, the sheer demand for cheap shipping would recreate your competitors all over again. You see, if Lyrandar were the only shipping industry left in the continent, I don't see pirates as existing. At all. Except when it’s not. Assuming occasional non perfect circumstances it is easy to imagine a Lyrander manager having a bunch of normal vessels going out (not every ship in the sea can have a 6th level pilot) and thinking “what should I do about pirates?” Sorry. I can't imagine why Lyrandar would stoop to using normal vessels when it could use 6th level Lyrandar captains instead. If I were Lyrandar and I had a group of powerful ships and a fleet of normal ones, I wouldn't use the powerful ships for shipping at all. I'd use them to kill off all the pirates and tax everyone in the shipping industry for the service. This example really does not apply. U-Boat were slow stealth vessels, engaging in long chases is not their forte. The key word here is "slow". If you're slower than your target, then engaging in a long chase is not only not your forte, it's stupid and futile. You'll never catch him. By the same token, a same size ship that can sail three times as fast as any other ship and being able to maintiain this top speed in any direction is a surpassingly powerful vessel. Even going twice as fast as any other ship and going only twice as fast in some directions is already plenty powerful. Powerful enough to be a pirate or navy flagship, in fact. Consider 6 Lyrandar vessels piloted by 6th level captains against 6 pirate vessels without such an advantage. The Lyrandar vessels can avoid engagement all the time, while the pirate vessels cannot avoid engagement at all. Furthermore, 6 Lyrandar vessels can gang up on one pirate vessel and kill it and flee before the rest got into position. The pirates would be forced into a completely defensive position, being completely vulnerable and without the option to even attack effectively. Has Keith suggested anything conventional yet? Besides you missed his point. Instead of having warships, there were merchant ships with some troops on them. Which would fall perfectly into what I have been talking about all along. Not at all. You missed his point. He said that the Airship were developed as a weapon of war. That makes them warhips by definition. They were made not as trading vessels but with the function of participating in wartime endeavors. Really? It is in fact exactly as hard as I think. You just need forward speed, coefficient of drag, Mass of projectile and height. That and you are trying to hit one big castle. The reason they carpet bombed was due to the strategies I outlined above. Which they would use, which would negate the rock bomb effectiveness. LOL. That's "all you need" huh? I guess that's why it takes 20th century electronics, tactics, and modern GPS tracking to hit one lousy house that's not even camouflaged. And even then, you might not hit exactly the right one. Try hitting something from a reasonable height sometime, without moving. It's a lot harder than you might expect. Well, I would use 50 flasks of oil and 2 alchemists fire, but same idea. Bundle them like grapeshot and watch them spread. But lets not forget spreading slingshot stones, caltrops or some kind of chemical weapon (skunk extract). Or even light rods during night combat. Rocks are for busting castles. Other weapons are for troops. Let me get this straight, you're trying to hit and damage a wall. A structure a few feet thick from more than 650 feet up (minimum height to avoid a fireball fired from 50 feet height). Not only would trying to hit that thing be a pain, you'd be lucky to damage it, even if you did. You're trying to knock it down, not hammer it into the ground. Of course, you can try just killing the castle by pelting it with enough rocks, but something tells me that punching a hole through the stable roof isn't much of a military objective to accomplish. Never say never. The price may not be in coin or there may be a really big amount of coins at stake. The cost would be House morale. As house leader, you'd be asking one of your captains to kill another of your captains for an outsider's favor. This puts house integrity immediately at risk. I suppose a suicidal or traitorous House Patriarch could do such a thing, but not anyone who had House interests in mind. Right, but when it costs incredible amounts of money to protect against regular rocks, that’s money you are not spending elsewhere. Now that you waste money on roofs I will just find where you cut your money from. The techniques I suggest will be much cheaper. You're mistaken. Castle technology, to be effective, also has to be economical. A castle defense that costs more than the threat it's supposed to neutralize is a miserable failure. Since we know that forts are still in use, it follows that they have devised a way to deal with the threat. Building your roofs in a conical fashion doesn't cost that much more, and it's quite effective, especially with enough buttressing. None of those things I suggest involve any magic (though magic would aid). Camouflage is a simple as using canvas tarps. What’s under the tarps? Is it soldiers or nothing? When you're on flat plains with no real threat to massed infantry, concentrating your forces defeats camouflage. In order to be camouflaged, you'll need to disperse your troops in small units, small units that can then be defeated handily by a massed formation. There's a reason that massed foot soldiers has been the mainstay of real warfare since the ancient periods.
billseurer 09-27-04, 09:26 AM	I would tend to disagree here. Lightning Rail is almost as fast or faster depending on where you're going and Special Coaches and trips are always possible. Even in modern travel, if a train can get you there in time comparable to a plane, most people would pick the train instead, even if planes are statistically safer. These things aren't always logical. People are scared of flying. I agree with you that in Eberron they probably would take Lightning Rail. However, as far as modern travel goes you are wrong. Sort of. It is a cultural/regional thing. In the US most people will drive first (unless it's more than X hours away), then they will fly. In a few regions (around a few major cities) they might take the train within that region. In a very few cases they might take a bus. Trains suffer from several problems here. They are far too slow when compared to planes for the long distances that much travel covers in the US. It takes a couple days to travel from one coast to the other by train for instance. There are fewer places to catch trains than planes now in the US. And they don't have the flexibility that cars do once you get there.
stembolt 10-16-04, 06:41 PM	Did they ensure large and expensive caravans on a regular basis? Yes. Though primarily it was ships that were insured. In the real world all important cities were on the water. Eberron can violate that because of the Lightening rail. I have said it before and I will say it again; Eberron draws parallel to the “Early modern” period. Comparisons to the European Renaissance or even to the age of enlightenment are generally flawed. Obviously this is not a perfect comparison, but it is a better starting point than the Renaissance. For thousands of gold pieces a day? That's one very expensive map. I don't see Eberron maps being done the same way as modern maps. Why would you need a team of six and what kind of equipment would they be needing? Once you have the information it is yours forever. Cartography equipment, not including camp and sundry equipment, surveying gear and mapmaking gear. Mapmaking is primarily artistic. Drafting tables, ink, paintbrushes and so forth. Surveying requires scopes, transits, targets. Don’t forget climbing gear. Also if you are the first team out you need to build benchmarks, concrete slabs and a brass target. But that really is a different subject from airships. Allow me to divert the course of the argument slightly to explain some of the root arguments I am using to reach my conclusions. Nations vs. guilds: How much money? One of the things that is misestimated by many people is the economic difference between a business and a nation. A nation will often have several orders of magnitude more money to spend than an organization. A business makes money by providing goods or services and charging slightly more than the goods or services cost them in the first place. So the profit is a percentage of their total amount of sales. Nations, on the other hand, get their money by taxing their constituents. Essentialy they get this money for free. In practice they get the money for the purpose of spending the money on the things that nations buy. Like defense for example. No Lyrander vessel can be prepared for every possible trick a pirate might use A ship that has a defense against every possible kind of attack would be too expesive to use. Ward against teleport. Defenses against swimming creatures. Invisible flyers. Fireballs. Terry Prachett makes a great statement on the subject: “A prince can only grow up to be a king, but an orphan could be anything.” The pirates can literally do “anything.” How exactly does one defend against “anything?” Subterfuge is another problem. Pirates could pretend to be in distress and then attack the merchant ship. Lets not forget the human (or half elf) factor. If you buy off the captain he will give you the goods. Or if you hold his daughter hostage. Sorry. I can't imagine why Lyrandar would stoop to using normal vessels when it could use 6th level Lyrandar captains instead. Because they do not have the captains. Especially since most of the dragonmarked have be re-appointed as flying ship pilots. Consider 6 Lyrandar vessels piloted by 6th level captains against 6 pirate vessels without such an advantage. [/quote OK, now consider other situations. The dragonmaked was infected with a disease at the last port. Two days out he is incapable of standing, let alone piloting the vessel. While in port the rudder is sabotaged. A day out it stops working. Sanghuin wait in an inlet and attach themselves as the ship passes. Then the climb to the surface and attack. During a natural fog upwelling the pirates sneak up on the ship from all sides. As an aside I doubt the marked are necessarily the captains. The ship needs someone to call the shots who is not necessarily tethered to the wheel. I suspect that there are many marked captains but by no means would even most captains be marked. [quote] You're mistaken. Castle technology, to be effective, also has to be economical. A castle defense that costs more than the threat it's supposed to neutralize is a miserable failure. Since we know that forts are still in use, it follows that they have devised a way to deal with the threat. Building your roofs in a conical fashion doesn't cost that much more, and it's quite effective, especially with enough buttressing. Airships are new and have likely never been used in this fashion. I will also have to say that reinforced roofs will be useless against airships. Castles went out in the real world largely due to mortars. The roofs were so weak and it is simply impossible to reinforce them enough to matter. LOL. That's "all you need" huh? I guess that's why it takes 20th century electronics, tactics, and modern GPS tracking to hit one lousy house that's not even camouflaged. And even then, you might not hit exactly the right one. Try hitting something from a reasonable height sometime, without moving. It's a lot harder than you might expect. Again the problem here is you are making comparisons to the wrong things. A closer example is the cannon. Almost the same principals are needed. And remember you have all the time in the world, no ones shooting at you and you probably have only one target to worry about. A cannon will get that house in two shots. Because the cannon master needs one shot to get his ranging correct. As for the modern comparison (I used to build GPS devices for the military) the problem has never ever been one of “can an expert hit the target” (you would be amazed at what experts in these fields can do). The problem is “How can I make it so a kid who is so dim his boots have to be labeled “Left” and “Right” hit the target.” When you're on flat plains with no real threat to massed infantry, concentrating your forces defeats camouflage. In order to be camouflaged, you'll need to disperse your troops in small units, small units that can then be defeated handily by a massed formation. There's a reason that massed foot soldiers has been the mainstay of real warfare since the ancient periods Camouflage of my sort has certainly been used since the early Greeks (and probably earlier). When coming onto a beach the Greeks might have disguised half of the ships. Thus fooling people into thinking there numbers were half as big. Another tactic would be to hide all the ships and make twice as many fires as needed. Now the force is twice as big. Eberron also breaks the rules. Do you mass the troops? If they have one wand of fireballs massed troops will be slaughtered. A small number of Karnathi Undead or warforged or Dhakkani mercenaries can easily fight much larger groups. And even a tiny number of Vaelnar mercenaries will cut a swath.
Roxlimn 10-17-04, 06:14 AM	stembolt: Yes. Though primarily it was ships that were insured. In the real world all important cities were on the water. Eberron can violate that because of the Lightening rail. I have said it before and I will say it again; Eberron draws parallel to the “Early modern” period. Comparisons to the European Renaissance or even to the age of enlightenment are generally flawed. Obviously this is not a perfect comparison, but it is a better starting point than the Renaissance. I'm not really impressed by how often you say your assertions if you do not have bases for these assertions. Eberron is not at all like the modern world or else the socio-political structure engendered by technology would also be present. It is a pattern that is evident in many independently occurring events throughout history. The mere presence of fabricate and House Cannith in a sense should make the sociopolitical structure hyper-modern or sci-fi fantasy closer than it is to anything we ever would know. Star Wars is probably a closer match in terms of what you can potentially do with magic than modern technology, yet for the sake of flavor, Eberron refuses to take such things into account. It is suspended for the sake of the campaign. For this reason, I believe that Renaissance is the proper framework for the Eberron campaign rather than Early Modern, especially when you take things like Lightning Rail and Airships into the picture. In truth, I think FF is a better basis for things Eberron than anything we can draw upon in the modern world. Once you have the information it is yours forever. Nope. Not at all. Once you have information, it is yours until the craftiest pirate or thief steals it from you. Then it's everyone else's. I do not believe that any venture that proposes using an Airship purely for the purpose of surveying would meet any sort of financial success. Cartography equipment, not including camp and sundry equipment, surveying gear and mapmaking gear. Mapmaking is primarily artistic. Drafting tables, ink, paintbrushes and so forth. Surveying requires scopes, transits, targets. Don’t forget climbing gear. Also if you are the first team out you need to build benchmarks, concrete slabs and a brass target. But that really is a different subject from airships. No. It isn't. If you can go to where you want to go, even via Airship, and then use cheaper equipment to get yourself aloft for surveying and estimation, then you do not need the Airship to perform your aerial functions. Indeed, it's probably better to do it this way because you can send various flying people several ways and for several different functions, and do the task cheaper than you would have to spend if you hired an Airship for a week spending hundreds of thousands of gold pieces in the process. Nations vs. guilds: How much money? One of the things that is misestimated by many people is the economic difference between a business and a nation. A nation will often have several orders of magnitude more money to spend than an organization. A business makes money by providing goods or services and charging slightly more than the goods or services cost them in the first place. So the profit is a percentage of their total amount of sales. Nations, on the other hand, get their money by taxing their constituents. Essentialy they get this money for free. In practice they get the money for the purpose of spending the money on the things that nations buy. Like defense for example. This is factually incorrect, both in real terms and in fantasy terms. Bill Gates is the richest man in the world, but even he does not wholly own the resources that Microsoft can employ. Microsoft has more than enough resources to match many small countries, especially the poorer ones. In fact, if you take debt into account, Microsoft has more net worth than many countries, including the larger ones. The real difference here is not in terms of magnitude but in terms of nature. A government as an economic entity is fundamentally different from a business organization in that it handles sociopolitical activity directly and economy secondary whereas a business organization handles economic activities directly and sociopolitical activities indirectly. Thus, even a government deep in debt can mobilize what would appear to be incredible economic power because it is channeling the economic power of many smaller business organizations that have chosen to comply. It is not, in itself, naturally a powerful economic presence. Moreover you do not understand the economic realities associated with merchant houses and monopolies, probably because you haven't ever studied one in detail. A monopoly or merchant house is incredibly powerful. These people did not style themselves princes for nothing. They don't only control the economic life of a nation directly and indirectly, they can also do things you don't see normal businesses in a free market scenario do, like charge exorbitant fees and enforce payment on the indentured servitude level. In fact, I believe that in terms of overall power and influence, the Dragonmarked Houses are very much on par with any of the surviving monarchies in Khorvaire, if not more powerful. No Lyrander vessel can be prepared for every possible trick a pirate might use A ship that has a defense against every possible kind of attack would be too expesive to use. Ward against teleport. Defenses against swimming creatures. Invisible flyers. Fireballs. It doesn't have to be. You're thinking in PC terms. Don't. A Lyrandar merchant house is a merchant house, an incredibly powerful house with great influence in the shipping lanes. However, they use their Sea or Skycaptians, they are more powerful than the Spanish Armada and the British Navy were in their respective heydays, comparatively, and absolutely. They don't just make business in the sea. They are the sea. Pirates in real world terms were most powerful as the Elizabethan Sea Dogs, a group of privateers who stole Spanish gold from the New World. They could be pirates because they were better seamen than their targets were, not because they had the element of surprise or any such nonsense. They were simply better. When privateering was outlawed late in the 1600s (?), and some of the former privateers turned into defenders of the sealanes, the "tradition" of piracy very quickly died. This is a very real demonstration of what superior seamanship can do. Isolated tricks like invisible flyers and Fireballs aren't dealt with on a ship to ship basis. They're dealt with on an organizational basis. Lyrandar simply can't afford to let pirates kill their vessels without consequence, and as an organization, no pirate is strong enough to stand up to a Dragonmarked House, especially one that specializes in the sea. One defends against "anything" and everything by being the best darned armada Khorvaire has ever seen. Let that upstart newcomer pirate attack a Lyrandar ship. If he knows what's good for him, he'd better target someone else. Subterfuge is another problem. Pirates could pretend to be in distress and then attack the merchant ship. Lets not forget the human (or half elf) factor. If you buy off the captain he will give you the goods. Or if you hold his daughter hostage. You still don't understand the significance of being able to sail at maximum speed against the prevailing wind. Even if a Lyrandar ship were to approach a pirate vessel, they would very quickly be able to escape if it turns out that the pirate was shamming. What few pirates managed to board would quickly be taken down by numbers and killed. Then they report the incident to Lyrandar HQ and they send their armada to massacre the scurvy knave. Same thing for captains and daughters held hostage. While it could happen, I don't believe it's something pirates can count on for regular sustenance. Because they do not have the captains. Especially since most of the dragonmarked have be re-appointed as flying ship pilots. No. Lyrandar still maintains Elemental Galleons and Airships are a new and untried thing. If anything, only a very few people will be taken to the Airships while the rest would stay with their regular work. I don't see Lyrandar running regular ships when they could concentrate their efforts on those Seacaptained ships that they can run. OK, now consider other situations. The dragonmaked was infected with a disease at the last port. Two days out he is incapable of standing, let alone piloting the vessel. While in port the rudder is sabotaged. A day out it stops working. Sanghuin wait in an inlet and attach themselves as the ship passes. Then the climb to the surface and attack. During a natural fog upwelling the pirates sneak up on the ship from all sides. Then Lyrandar launches an investigation and kills the lot of them. I'm sorry, but I can't imagine seeing any single pirate or seagoing band of bandits as being powerful enough to insult Lyrandar on a regular enough basis to make a living out of it. I can see the occasional pirate group trying it out and either being wiped out or forced out of the sea, but nothing more than isolated shushed up one-ofs. Very simply put, even a pirate who can prey on Lyrandar ships would be able to prey that much more easily on non-Lyrandar ships and thereby kill those ships in preference. Airships are new and have likely never been used in this fashion. I will also have to say that reinforced roofs will be useless against airships. Castles went out in the real world largely due to mortars. The roofs were so weak and it is simply impossible to reinforce them enough to matter. Airships were used enough in the last war for shipboard Archers to have been found useful and effective. I'd say that would require a fair amount of usage before you came to that conclusion. Throwing rocks overboard is so simple and obvious that it would immediately come to the head of anyone using an Airship in warfare. It would doubtless have been tried, though I doubt it would have been very successful, as I said. By the way, forts did not go out in the real world. Many forts survived and evolved, like they always did, in response to the armaments they were supposed to defend against. Airships are simply another evolutionary factor. What really spelled the end for the usefulness of forts as strategic point of defense was the blitzkrieg style of warfare, most dramatically proven against the line of forts France erected after the WWI. Mortars did not spell the end of forts at all. If anything, forts evolved to include entire towns and settlements, not just a few buildings or so. Again the problem here is you are making comparisons to the wrong things. A closer example is the cannon. Almost the same principals are needed. And remember you have all the time in the world, no ones shooting at you and you probably have only one target to worry about. No, I'm not. You're the one making the ridiculous comparisons here. You think a rock dropped from a height going almost straight down resembles a cannon shot? I must apologize, but I was under the impression that cannons shot horizontally in an effort to bring down the fort walls not pound them into the ground. All you'll accomplish in raining down that many rocks on the enemy position is strengthen it, as you will eventually pile down enough rocks to elevate their ground before you manage to seriously damage any walls. On top of that, an Airship is likely the least threatening as a mobile rock dropper compared to its uses as chemical dispenser, fire dispenser and troop transport. I seriously doubt immunity as well. Archers can fire up as well as horizontally, and in D&D, upward range is not diminished, however ridiculous it may sound. These archers sporting fire arrows are literally shooting at the broad side of what amount to a huge barn. It'll take a decent amount of distance for them to miss, to say nothing of the Fireballs you have to worry about. As for the modern comparison (I used to build GPS devices for the military) the problem has never ever been one of “can an expert hit the target” (you would be amazed at what experts in these fields can do). The problem is “How can I make it so a kid who is so dim his boots have to be labeled “Left” and “Right” hit the target.” Well, apparently, expert bomb droppers in WWII couldn't hit anything with enough accuracy to make rocks profitable. Cannons are relatively easy to target compared to a round something you just drop from goodness knows how high at a target a few feet across. Camouflage of my sort has certainly been used since the early Greeks (and probably earlier). When coming onto a beach the Greeks might have disguised half of the ships. Thus fooling people into thinking there numbers were half as big. Another tactic would be to hide all the ships and make twice as many fires as needed. Now the force is twice as big. That didn't seem to be the sort of camouflage you were espousing. Camoufalge on a massive scale is certainly possible, but in terms of unit tactics, keeping 'em together seems to work better. Eberron also breaks the rules. Do you mass the troops? If they have one wand of fireballs massed troops will be slaughtered. A small number of Karnathi Undead or warforged or Dhakkani mercenaries can easily fight much larger groups. And even a tiny number of Vaelnar mercenaries will cut a swath. In battle terms, a Fireball is really rather tiny. When you're fielding in troops tens of thousands of men strong, losing a few tens to a limited resource isn't going to hurt you much. Rather than expend resources on a blunt yet marginally effective weapon, you can spend resources on something universally useful instead: get a few wands of Obscuring Mist for that mass camouflage we both agree is highly effective. With the ability to fog the battlefield in your control, you should have the capability to outmaneuver your opponent and make him lose more than a few Fireballs worth of troops.
stembolt 10-17-04, 03:26 PM	I'm not really impressed by how often you say your assertions if you do not have bases for these assertions. Actually that’s what I need to know. I do not know what you (and others) do not know. Eberron very clearly is not a renaissance parallel and in fact while early modern is the closest parallel they are in many ways beyond that. Here are some examples: Newspapers – The newspaper was invented in the renaissance (1502 Germany). However it was 1609 (England) before there was a regularly published newspaper and it was the 1700 before the newspaper had risen to true prominence. Interestingly the reasoning behind the prominence of the newspaper was: Rising Literacy, the formation of nations and national identity, the development of a postal system, and an interest in the spread of a literary and philosophical discourse. You will note that all of those elements are present in Eberron. Lightening rail, Fast ships and airships – In this area Eberron is most advanced. Remember the train has been around a long time and high speed ships probably just as long. The flying ship is new but in this area Eberron is similar to the invention of the Zeppelin (1899). For comparison the steamship was invented in 1787 and came to regular use in 1807. The train was invented in 1814 and immediately took off. Still think Eberron belongs in the Renaissance? Nope. Not at all. Once you have information, it is yours until the craftiest pirate or thief steals it from you. Then it's everyone else's. I do not believe that any venture that proposes using an Airship purely for the purpose of surveying would meet any sort of financial success. Well, make a copy. Besides the information is so obscure and technical that you need to be a mapmaker to understand it. Besides, maps exist. Somebody made them. Lyrander needs maps, it makes more sense just to give mapmakers a ride then to make them walk. This is factually incorrect, both in real terms and in fantasy terms. Bill Gates is the richest man in the world, but even he does not wholly own the resources that Microsoft can employ. Microsoft has more than enough resources to match many small countries, especially the poorer ones. Honestly by this point you have fallen in love with your own ideas so much you cannot see the point in front of you. I am not comparing Microsoft to Uganda. I am comparing it to France, Germany or England. Besides I am doing this in opposition to the notion that a Nation could not afford to move a few troops to the border by ship, if necessary. Clearly if a company can afford to ship something by air a nation could afford to move a few troops. Heck by your own point they could just compel the ships into service. Moreover you do not understand the economic realities associated with merchant houses and monopolies, probably because you haven't ever studied one in detail. Hey I have read everything on the Dragonmarked houses particularly house Lyrander. As for the real world for an amateur I know quite a bit. A point that is meaningless. I endeavor to provide adequate proof for all my statements. So if you don’t understand just ask, there is always more information behind what I say. I don’t have the kind of time to be comprehensive off the bat. It doesn't have to be. You're thinking in PC terms. Don't. A Lyrandar merchant house is a merchant house, an incredibly powerful house with great influence in the shipping lanes. <snip> Khorvaire has ever seen. Let that upstart newcomer pirate attack a Lyrandar ship. If he knows what's good for him, he'd better target someone else. Other than being full of sound and fury, you’re not really saying much here. You assert that Lyrander is immune in every way to piracy when it is plain that they are not. You make the assertion that they are so invincible that no force could dare oppose them, and offer no proof. Despite the overwhelming number of ways that piracy could be accomplished you simply wave your hand and say that “Oh you are thinking like a PC.” I am thinking like a DM because that’s what I do. Secondly you have a very difficult case to posit here. Your assertion is that Lyrander is immune to any sort of piracy or criminal activity. Well you can prove your side once and for all by asking Keith if that is the case. I’ll let you do it so you cannot say I swayed him in any way. Then Lyrandar launches an investigation and kills the lot of them. there are more bad guys then there are good guys. The emerald claw, the aurum, the blood of Vol, just to mention a few. Your assertion is weak. Besides it is opposition to your earlier statements that it was impossible. By the way, forts did not go out in the real world. Many forts survived and evolved, like they always did, in response to the armaments they were supposed to defend against. Do you read or skim? Good job on proving my point. My work here is done. No, I'm not. You're the one making the ridiculous comparisons here. You think a rock dropped from a height going almost straight down resembles a cannon shot? It does to a cannon master. It is a simple Differential Equation. If you want to take a look at the math I can look around for some of my old textbooks. I recall them having cannon equation somewhere. Dropping rocks is simpler because you do not have to convert pounds of powder into forward motion. And remember my assertion is that in order to combat the threat of falling rocks the defenders will take certain steps. The steps will make the use of rocks similar to the problems WWII bombers had. That didn't seem to be the sort of camouflage you were espousing. Camoufalge on a massive scale is certainly possible, but in terms of unit tactics, keeping 'em together seems to work better. I espouse all uses of camouflage. And Sun Tzu disagrees with you. In battle terms, a Fireball is really rather tiny. When you're fielding in troops tens of thousands of men strong, losing a few tens to a limited resource isn't going to hurt you much. TENS OF THOUSANDS? I doubt that there were many, if any, battles of this size. I may be wrong but if I am lets see a source.
Somebloke 10-17-04, 10:57 PM	Thoughts... A Greater Dispel Magic/Antimagic field/rod of disjunctionwhatever or similar effect would undo the binding of the fire elemental and turn the skyship into a giant, burning wreck plummeting to earth. Beats a bomb smuggled into a suitcase, doesn't it?
Korhal IV 10-17-04, 11:27 PM	Hmm, I'm mostly agreeing with Rox here. As a practical matter, while rocks overboard would be the simplest and probably the best tactic, they wouldn't do enough damage to really be worth it. Instead of castle walls, you want to be pounding an army on the march. Armies tended to use roads exclusively, because of the wretched difficulties involved in dragging carts and equipment over unbroken terrain. In fact, several major battles of the American Revolution were won because the British military clung to the roads, while the more lightly equipped revolutionaries hid in the surrounding woods, and behind walls. Therefore, an army on the march, especially one that has to drag along supply wagons, i.e. an offensive army, not a defensive one, is especially vulnerable to the rock tactic. A lot of small rocks (1-1.5 lb.) showered overboard will likely kill or injure a reasonable quantity of men, while scattering the rest. A few hours of that should slow the army considerably, allowing for all sorts of sneaky maneuvers from your other forces. It's also a great tactic for relieving sieges, since the enemy is widely encamped and unable to either fortify heavily or scatter quickly. The issue of whether Lyrandar would license out its ships is questionable, but I think in the end they would have to. They would do their absolute best to treat everyone equally, but these are men and women who have grown up all their lives trying to earn more money, and I don't see them considering it too big of a risk for the money earned. I do agree that Lyrandar captains would never fight each other, however. Piracy is a more difficult issue. Airships would never come into play, simply because the opportunity cost of using them to scout the seas instead of shipping people and goods would just be too high. The incredible speed of Lyrandar ships would make them far too difficult to catch openly, and I don't doubt that Lyrandar would do its best to retaliate. Individual pirate ships would have little luck against them, but larger, more organized forces (such as the Lhaazar Princes) would be plenty willing to challenge Lyrandar. Lyrandar could win, but it's unlikely they would consider it worth the effort to throw away that many resources, and instead would choose to write off a few ships each year and make examples of those who take too many.
stembolt 10-18-04, 01:05 AM	A Greater Dispel Magic/Antimagic field/rod of disjunctionwhatever or similar effect would undo the binding of the fire elemental and turn the skyship into a giant, burning wreck plummeting to earth. The ship actually floats without the elemental. Also there is some argument as to how giant magic items are affected by the above spells. As a practical matter, while rocks overboard would be the simplest and probably the best tactic, they wouldn't do enough damage to really be worth it. Speaking from the standpoint of physics dropping a rock does lots of damage. Even more damage if you make special ammo. If this is not acceptable I can start tracking down the necessary materials comparisons and physics equations. In fact, several major battles of the American Revolution were won because the British military clung to the roads, while the more lightly equipped revolutionaries hid in the surrounding woods, and behind walls. Suffice to say, your knowledge of military history is amazingly poor. But roads are important (as are trains). The real target is the road or bridge. A nice static target that hampers the enemy. It's also a great tactic for relieving sieges, since the enemy is widely encamped and unable to either fortify heavily or scatter quickly. Any kind of outside support helps relive a siege.
Roxlimn 10-18-04, 01:37 AM	stembolt: Still think Eberron belongs in the Renaissance? Apparently, we're using different measures of time and development. You're comparing magic-tech advancement, whereas I'm using sociopolitical development. Well, make a copy. Besides the information is so obscure and technical that you need to be a mapmaker to understand it. Besides, maps exist. Somebody made them. Lyrander needs maps, it makes more sense just to give mapmakers a ride then to make them walk. Who said anything about walking? Give em all items of flight. Honestly by this point you have fallen in love with your own ideas so much you cannot see the point in front of you. I am not comparing Microsoft to Uganda. I am comparing it to France, Germany or England. Besides I am doing this in opposition to the notion that a Nation could not afford to move a few troops to the border by ship, if necessary. Clearly if a company can afford to ship something by air a nation could afford to move a few troops. Heck by your own point they could just compel the ships into service. 1. The Merchant Houses in times past were fully comparable to any noble and even high noble you care to mention. They weren't royalty, but in some cases, they were very near it. The Dragonmarked Houses of Khorvaire, spanning an entire continent and holding unbreakable influence over their fields of specialty are at least an order of magnitude greater. 2. A wealthy nation could manage it, I suppose, but I doubt the ships would be there on time in enough number or else the nation cannot to put enough ships "on call" to make it happen. I'm sorry, but a merchant house being able to call on its own resources in its specialty to be able to do something a nation cannot is fully in line with what merchant houses were historically capable of doing. House Lyrandar can ship all sorts of things by Airship, but it doesn't mean that any other House or Nation can claim the same power just by buying it. It would still cost too much, IMO. On the other hand, it costs Lyrandar, too, but since the infrastructure is already there, they could do it, but they'd have to recoup the losses later. 3. Which point did I say that makes you think any nation can compel Lyrandar to do anything? Hey I have read everything on the Dragonmarked houses particularly house Lyrander. As for the real world for an amateur I know quite a bit. A point that is meaningless. I endeavor to provide adequate proof for all my statements. So if you don’t understand just ask, there is always more information behind what I say. I don’t have the kind of time to be comprehensive off the bat. If you think a monopoly has to stick to making tiny profit margins off of its specialty, then what you know regarding monopolies and cartels and merchant houses is worth nothing. These guys can dictate their price can it goes much beyond just increasing it by a bucketload to brutally maximize profits. Other than being full of sound and fury, you’re not really saying much here. You assert that Lyrander is immune in every way to piracy when it is plain that they are not. 1. Did I not just postulate no less than three different special scenarios in which Lyrandar might, for a short or extended period of time, be subject to piracy? 2. Where is it plain that Lyrandar is "immune to piracy". You make the assertion that they are so invincible that no force could dare oppose them, and offer no proof. Being able to sail at maximum speed against any sort of wind is so unbelievable an advantage, I suspect you have no knowledge of maritime warfare during the age of sail. This sort of power alone would make Lyrandar invincible at sea. Despite the overwhelming number of ways that piracy could be accomplished you simply wave your hand and say that “Oh you are thinking like a PC.” I fail to see how any of these ways are outlined in the Lhazaar Prinicipalities. In particular, the most powerful of these pirates whose forces are actually outlined in ECS boasts no invisibile flying corps, no fleets of dragons, no dragon turtles or whatever else you may cook up to explain how Lyrandar is losing. Since he's the most powerful pirate there, it stands to reason that every other pirate in his loose coalition is weaker, no? This being the case, I see no possiblity that any of these pirates would be able to prey on Lyrandar shipping without being wiped out the very next season. I am thinking like a DM because that’s what I do. Secondly you have a very difficult case to posit here. Your assertion is that Lyrander is immune to any sort of piracy or criminal activity. Well you can prove your side once and for all by asking Keith if that is the case. I’ll let you do it so you cannot say I swayed him in any way. I don't care if you talk to him or not. My assertion is that no typical pirate can prey on Lyrandar shipping and get away with it. I did not mention immunity in the sense you're using it here. there are more bad guys then there are good guys. The emerald claw, the aurum, the blood of Vol, just to mention a few. Your assertion is weak. Besides it is opposition to your earlier statements that it was impossible. 1. Strictly speaking, there are no clear cut bad or good guys in Eberron. 2. The Emerald Claw and the Aurum don't seem to be the type of organizations to have piracy interests. Blood of Vol may be a better candidate, but again, I don't see them pursuing piracy in anything like a regular basis, except as a patron for a normal pirate, who would not attack Lyrandar for fear of reprisal. Do you read or skim? Good job on proving my point. My work here is done. If you agree with my points, just say it plainly. It does to a cannon master. It is a simple Differential Equation. If you want to take a look at the math I can look around for some of my old textbooks. I recall them having cannon equation somewhere. Dropping rocks is simpler because you do not have to convert pounds of powder into forward motion. I don't think you need me to argue that trying to hit the broad side of a wall to try to bring it down is easier than trying to hit it sideways from the top. Likewise, I'm not sure where you get the idea that hitting a wall from the top is anything like an effective tactic. Are you trying to hammmer it into the ground? And remember my assertion is that in order to combat the threat of falling rocks the defenders will take certain steps. The steps will make the use of rocks similar to the problems WWII bombers had. WWII bombers used bombs, I think, not rocks. A bomb that did not explode (ie, a rock) was considered a "dud" and did minimal damage. I espouse all uses of camouflage. And Sun Tzu disagrees with you. And I still think that some of the uses of camouflage that you espouse are wholly unworkable. Please quote the Sun Tzu passage you like. TENS OF THOUSANDS? I doubt that there were many, if any, battles of this size. I may be wrong but if I am lets see a source. The size of an army's nation is, of course, partially determined by the size of its population. If you look at the Demographics thread, you can see Keith pretty much saying that you can make the populations as large or as small as you like. Furthermore, there is a picture of a massed army of warforged battling a massed army of undead in the ECS, with what looks to be classic massed army formations in the background. This sort of tactics and level of warfare thoroughly discounts the individual camouflage/cover sort of warfare you're trying to get across. That kind of warfare evolved from precision firearms and sniper tactics. There doesn't seem to be that many of that sort in Eberron. Apparently not enough to influence warfare, in any case. Korhal IV: Individual pirate ships would have little luck against them, but larger, more organized forces (such as the Lhaazar Princes) would be plenty willing to challenge Lyrandar. Lyrandar could win, but it's unlikely they would consider it worth the effort to throw away that many resources, and instead would choose to write off a few ships each year and make examples of those who take too many. The Lhazaar Princes only came together for the Treaty of Thronehold. Before and since, they are largely independent outfits that don't care for each other very much. I don't think the Lhazaar Princes as a whole would care to challenge such a powerful force as a Dragonmarked House (and a sea specialist at that!), especially if that House makes it clear that they are only after one particular outfit that has been preying on their ships. In such an instance, with Airships and Elemental Galleons and Storms of Vengeance on their side, Lyrandar would be certain to visit such devastation on the Isles that no pirate would ever think of trying to kill a Lyrandar ship ever again. I'm sorry, but the way Lyrandar powers and the pirates are set up leads me to believe that: 1. Pirates exist so they must be able to prey on local shipping on a more or less regular basis. 2. Everything about the Pirates and Lyrandar in ECS leads me to believe that Lyrandar can wipe the Isles clean of them given the incentive, or at least kill the outfit causing the problem. Therefore, only a truly legendary and extraordinary pirate can attack Lyrandar shipping, in which case it's all that easier to attack normal shipping. 3. Piratical presence and monopoly dynamics leads me to believe that while Lyrandar controls shipping, they only take the best shipping, the highest prices, while controlling the rest of the field by tribute/threat of economic warfare (which no other shipping outfit would survive). This allows them to cede a few non-Lyrandar ships to pirates while keeping their own ships untouchable. It boosts morale, streamlines the organization and increases Lyrandar's prestige and political stance. I don't see why they'd bother running normal ships or bother to protect other shipping outfits to the same degree if they can get away with this (and they probably can).
stembolt 10-18-04, 03:30 AM	Apparently, we're using different measures of time and development. You're comparing magic-tech advancement, whereas I'm using sociopolitical development. First off the use of the term Magic-Tech implies such a level of ignorance of the setting, I’m going to just assume you are having a bad day. As for sociopolitical; national identity, extensively developed middle class, burgeoning parliamentary style government (Breland), high industrial development, widespread public education. Way past the renaissance. Unless I’m missing something? Examples would be in order. 1. The Merchant Houses in times past were fully comparable to any noble and even high noble you care to mention. OK. Were they the government? Did they collect taxes? No, because if they did they are nobles and not just merchants. See the point yet? House Lyrandar can ship all sorts of things by Airship, but it doesn't mean that any other House or Nation can claim the same power just by buying it. People buy it every day. What do you think Lyrander is shipping? The point is if house Cannith can afford to ship anything, Breland can move a few troops. 3. Which point did I say that makes you think any nation can compel Lyrandar to do anything? They are not above the law. Despite their great power, if Breland says to do something, house Lyrander better do it. If you think a monopoly has to stick to making tiny profit margins off of its specialty It is still a margin. Heck it can be pretty big but they still have to offer something. Nobody is just going to hand them money. I don't care if you talk to him or not. My assertion is that no typical pirate can prey on Lyrandar shipping and get away with it. I did not mention immunity in the sense you're using it here. I agree that a couple of thugs with a ship could not successfully take out a Lyrander vessel. So case closed. 1. Strictly speaking, there are no clear cut bad or good guys in Eberron. Really? Lords of Dust, the Dreaming Dark, the Daelkyr. Are they all good guys? 2. The Emerald Claw and the Aurum don't seem to be the type of organizations to have piracy interests. Blood of Vol may be a better candidate, but again, I don't see them pursuing piracy in anything like a regular basis, except as a patron for a normal pirate, who would not attack Lyrandar for fear of reprisal. Really, Why not? And while we are at it lets throw in the ultimate evil trio (Lords of Dust, the Dreaming Dark, and the Daelkyr). All of them also have no interest in piracy? I don't think you need me to argue that trying to hit the broad side of a wall to try to bring it down is easier than trying to hit it sideways from the top. Likewise, I'm not sure where you get the idea that hitting a wall from the top is anything like an effective tactic. Are you trying to hammmer it into the ground? Am I trying to hit the building from above? Yes I am. If you knock holes in the roof the building will collapse. One of the reasons castles became obsolete in the real world. So easy to take out the roof with a mortar. Have all this time you assumed I was talking about hitting the edge of the wall from above? Furthermore, there is a picture of a massed army of warforged battling a massed army of undead in the ECS, with what looks to be classic massed army formations in the background. One picture and no text. That’s it eh? This sort of tactics and level of warfare thoroughly discounts the individual camouflage/cover sort of warfare you're trying to get across. That kind of warfare evolved from precision firearms and sniper tactics. There doesn't seem to be that many of that sort in Eberron. Apparently not enough to influence warfare, in any case. Not at all. I am drawing more from Napoleon then anything. But when I talk about camouflage I go a little closer in history to when aircraft came into common usage. Like for example setting up tents so they all look the same from above. Which one is the commanders tent now? And I still think that some of the uses of camouflage that you espouse are wholly unworkable. Please quote the Sun Tzu passage you like. It’s not a passage it is “Chapter 3: Planning offensives” and to help you out his is what you said: That didn't seem to be the sort of camouflage you were espousing. Camoufalge on a massive scale is certainly possible, but in terms of unit tactics, keeping 'em together seems to work better. Let me know if you figure out my point.
Roxlimn 10-18-04, 04:20 AM	stembolt: First off the use of the term Magic-Tech implies such a level of ignorance of the setting, I’m going to just assume you are having a bad day. You were using a tech item to magic item correlation were you not? Rail - rail and airship - airship correlation? Something of the sort? Moreover, you should review my posts. I did not just say that Renaissance was the definitive way I see Eberron, but that it was a better take off than anything else. As for sociopolitical; national identity, extensively developed middle class, burgeoning parliamentary style government (Breland), high industrial development, widespread public education. Way past the renaissance. Unless I’m missing something? Examples would be in order. National identity: could be pre or post Renaissance depending on where you're referencing. Extensively developed middle class: Maybe not in the ECS I'm reading. Where do you get this information? Parliamentary style government: Breland experimental, none that I know of anywhere else. Mostly traditional monarchies with some unusual exceptions. No Magna Carta-ish traditions I know of. High industrial development: Aundair, Thrane, and Karrnath are mostly made up of farms. Breland is large part farms itself. Industry is there, but the continent hasn't really descended into barbarism like Middle Age Europe had been. Definitely Renaissance-ish to me. widespread public education. Completely fantastic. Not even modern continents have something like this. The existence of powerful merchant houses and the monopolies they control, monarchy-type governments being the norm, mostly agricultural base populations, no protection for workers and common people, underdeveloped nationalist ideologies. OK. Were they the government? Did they collect taxes? No, because if they did they are nobles and not just merchants. See the point yet? Nope. People buy it every day. What do you think Lyrander is shipping? The point is if house Cannith can afford to ship anything, Breland can move a few troops. Depends on what you mean by "a few". I already said that special troop transport was probably the best use for an Airship right from the get-go, but Airships on-ready for massive troop transportation? Even if Breland were to trust such a new fangled device for vital national interests, Lyrandar wouldn't tie itself to one nation that much, particularly Breland. Aundair, maybe... They are not above the law. Despite their great power, if Breland says to do something, house Lyrander better do it. You're obviously way off track here. Breland has no power to compel the Lyrandar Matriarch to do anything she doesn't have a mind to do. They can enforce local laws within their borders, but that's about the best they can do. Breland can't tell the Matriarch to pack her bags, it can't tell her what to eat for lunch, or even to keep Airship services within Breland itself. If Lyrandar chooses to embargo Breland, there isn't a thing the Brelish king can do about it directly. It is still a margin. Heck it can be pretty big but they still have to offer something. Nobody is just going to hand them money. You obviously cannot understand the implications or the massive level this indicates. Calling it a "margin" is really rather misleading, as the House can charge up to 1000% or more of the product's production cost, as long as the profit curve says that that generates the maximum profit. That's a small part of what it means to be a monopoly. Really? Lords of Dust, the Dreaming Dark, the Daelkyr. Are they all good guys? I stand corrected. Really, Why not? And while we are at it lets throw in the ultimate evil trio (Lords of Dust, the Dreaming Dark, and the Daelkyr). All of them also have no interest in piracy? Nothing in the ECS says that they do. Am I trying to hit the building from above? Yes I am. If you knock holes in the roof the building will collapse. One of the reasons castles became obsolete in the real world. So easy to take out the roof with a mortar. Have all this time you assumed I was talking about hitting the edge of the wall from above? Really? I thought it was the way mortars could knock large holes in walls. Silly me. Of course it was the roofs! Because roofs are the basic fundamental things that hold the building up. If you remove the roofs, the walls will collapse! I stand corrected. One picture and no text. That’s it eh? Against no picture and no text, I'd say I was up. Not at all. I am drawing more from Napoleon then anything. But when I talk about camouflage I go a little closer in history to when aircraft came into common usage. Like for example setting up tents so they all look the same from above. Which one is the commanders tent now? I don't see Airships as a "common" usage thing. They're new, after all. Napoleon style troops also did not sport individual camouflage and that sort of thing. IIRC, the troop colors were even rather loud and colorful. It’s not a passage it is “Chapter 3: Planning offensives” and to help you out his is what you said: Let me know if you figure out my point. I thought you were supporting small unit tactics with camouflage, cover, and everything. What style of warfare are you getting at, exactly? Maybe you should try to make your point a little better.
The Fireballed Mage 10-18-04, 02:15 PM	Not having really bothered to read this thread, I have a question about how really good an Airship would be for combat. We know that the nations have at least the possibility to procure an aero-monster flying corp, since Thrane used wyverns to drop bolders on Karnnath. Since an Airship costs 92,000 gp, how much does it cost to train a single griffon, and equip the magewright rider with a Wand of Fireballs, who can get close enough to use it on the vessel? If the griffon is much cheaper, it seems unlikely that a merchant house would be willing to risk the investment in the airship, if a simple griffon rider can get close and fireball the darn thing. And all physics of cargo carrying capacity aside, I'm sure there's something about the magic nature of soarwood that prevents the vessel from being heavily armoured. Note: no proof, just a personal flavour for my game. It just seems that the few Airships, nearly all controlled by a merchant house, would be better for trade and transport than combat in a magical world.
stembolt 10-18-04, 07:39 PM	National identity: could be pre or post Renaissance depending on where you're referencing. In the real world National Identity is one of the cornerstones of the early modern period. This is when Germans started to think of themselves as Germans as opposed to “Bavarians.” Extensively developed middle class: Maybe not in the ECS I'm reading. Where do you get this information? Um, The dragonmarked houses. Mostly traditional monarchies with some unusual exceptions. No Magna Carta-ish traditions I know of. You missed the allusions to the “Code of Galfar” High industrial development: Aundair, Thrane, and Karrnath are mostly made up of farms. Breland is large part farms itself. Industry is there, but the continent hasn't really descended into barbarism like Middle Age Europe had been. Definitely Renaissance-ish to me. In the early modern period countries were mostly farms and wilderness as well. Until modern intensive farming practices were developed cities needed immense areas of farms to keep them going. Completely fantastic. Not even modern continents have something like this. Like North America, for example? You're obviously way off track here. Breland has no power to compel the Lyrandar Matriarch to do anything she doesn't have a mind to do. Breland is the law. That’s it. Any merchant must respect, to some degree, the laws of a nation or they will be out of work. You obviously cannot understand the implications or the massive level this indicates. Calling it a "margin" is really rather misleading, as the House can charge up to 1000% or more of the product's production cost, as long as the profit curve says that that generates the maximum profit. That's a small part of what it means to be a monopoly. That is simply so asinine I am going to ignore it. Or I was sick when they covered that under monopolies in economics. Suffice to say that even monopolies face market pressures. Really? I thought it was the way mortars could knock large holes in walls. Silly me. Of course it was the roofs! Because roofs are the basic fundamental things that hold the building up. If you remove the roofs, the walls will collapse! I stand corrected. Mortars are parabolic weapons they always strike from above. Any core structural damage to a building, such as to the cross bracings, will result in building failure. You would apparently be surprised how much the different parts of the building support each other. Against no picture and no text, I'd say I was up. Unfortunately you are against logic. Armies of that size are fantastical. (it is however a fantasy world) I’ll look in the book to see if there are any mentions of army sizes. I don't see Airships as a "common" usage thing. They're new, after all. Napoleon style troops also did not sport individual camouflage and that sort of thing. IIRC, the troop colors were even rather loud and colorful. Airships are new, but they certainly are in common usage. A treatise on Napoleonic style warfare is far beyond the scope of this thread. Not having really bothered to read this thread, I have a question about how really good an Airship would be for combat. Don’t bother posting if you are not going to read.
Somebloke 10-18-04, 09:57 PM	Enough already guys.... In the end, it comes down to what you want in your campaign. DM #A shapes the reality of his world; DM #B decides on his version of reality. If someone wants to have military skyships filling the air, it doesn't really impact on your nonmilitary skyship world-view: and visa versa. Give it a rest.
stembolt 10-18-04, 11:22 PM	In the end, it comes down to what you want in your campaign. DM #A shapes the reality of his world; DM #B decides on his version of reality. If someone wants to have military skyships filling the air, it doesn't really impact on your nonmilitary skyship world-view: and visa versa. Give it a rest. Well if that is what you get out of this little discussion then this post is exactly what you need. I suggest a careful reading and let us know if you need any of the words explained. This is less a thread about the existence of warships then it is an analysis of the elements involved. Would you have necessarily thought that the development of warships might hinge on the existence of air pirates? Besides the vision of warships filling the skies is foolish and if there is anything this world needs less of, it’s fools.
Somebloke 10-18-04, 11:29 PM	Well if that is what you get out of this little discussion then this post is exactly what you need. I suggest a careful reading and let us know if you need any of the words explained. This is less a thread about the existence of warships then it is an analysis of the elements involved. Would you have necessarily thought that the development of warships might hinge on the existence of air pirates? Besides the vision of warships filling the skies is foolish and if there is anything this world needs less of, it’s fools. My issues were less about the ideas being floated as to the tone of the discussion. Sit back, take a deep breath, and realise you're getting catty over DM styles. As for your final comment, a good DM will simply adjust his world to allow skyship fleets to be a logical reality. If they want a Sky-Captain style feel to the campaign, all the snide comments in the world will not alter that.
stembolt 10-19-04, 12:59 AM	My issues were less about the ideas being floated as to the tone of the discussion. First time on a message board? No one is getting upset. This is what happens on a message board. As for your final comment, a good DM will simply adjust his world to allow skyship fleets to be a logical reality. If they want a Sky-Captain style feel to the campaign, all the snide comments in the world will not alter that. Swing and miss. The key thing to ponder here is why you are wrong. You step into the middle of an argument thinking, “These guys are dumb. I know the real answer.” So then, what’s the question?
nyysjan 10-19-04, 03:40 AM	Personally i like the ongoing discussion. Lots of different points i can use in other discussions. By the way in my opinnion it could be possible to create airships that do not recuire dragonmark to steer because "if" soarwood ships float by themselves and elementals are used only as a way to steer and to provide propulsion, then there is no reason you could not equip soarwood ship with sails instead of elementals and steered by a wizard who can use spell control weather "7th level spell" or somekind of wondrous item with continual effect that controls the wind direction and speed.
MarkB 10-19-04, 05:16 AM	Personally i like the ongoing discussion. Lots of different points i can use in other discussions. By the way in my opinnion it could be possible to create airships that do not recuire dragonmark to steer because "if" soarwood ships float by themselves and elementals are used only as a way to steer and to provide propulsion, then there is no reason you could not equip soarwood ship with sails instead of elementals and steered by a wizard who can use spell control weather "7th level spell" or somekind of wondrous item with continual effect that controls the wind direction and speed. I don't think Soarwood actually provides lift - I think it's just the wooden equivalent of mithril, extremely light for its tensile strength. Even if it has essentially neutral buoyancy, your airship will still sink the moment you load it with crew and goods unless there's some further form of lift. I could see a design of airship where an elemental is bound in essentially "deaf and blind" form, providing nothing but buoyancy, while other means of propulsion are used - I've created something along those lines that I may use in my campaigns, based on air elementals - but it should be a lot less efficient and versatile than Lyrandar airships, or they couldn't be operated profitably.
nyysjan 10-19-04, 10:28 AM	Why not enchant the ship itself without any elementals ie. flying carpet understandably powering the spell would be harder and it's not direct comparison but princible behind the thing is the same they would be inferrior to elemental using airships but still better than say walking or coach and more versatile than rail because it can go anywhere nad as a plus it probably would not need any special place to land or get repairs.
Atlictoatl 10-19-04, 01:36 PM	Why not enchant the ship itself without any elementals ie. flying carpet understandably powering the spell would be harder and it's not direct comparison but princible behind the thing is the same they would be inferrior to elemental using airships but still better than say walking or coach and more versatile than rail because it can go anywhere nad as a plus it probably would not need any special place to land or get repairs. My interpretation is that a ship is much larger than a flying carpet, which is why it requires the binding of an elemental to enchant the ship. Were you to commission a flying carpet of a size that is on the same order as an airship, I'd likely require the elemental for the carpet as well.
nyysjan 10-19-04, 01:53 PM	I agree it is not the same thing and as i said principle is the same not the exact way it is done. and i do not say it is given that it can be done i just say i think it should be possible if difficult at first before it is studied to last detail and it is not science it is magic if a single spellcaster can lift himself and his maximum load at fifth level without any help and a magic carpet of 10X10 feet can lift 800 lb. "10th level caster to make" why a group of say 12th level wizards and a bigger group of gnomish "or any race you wish" artificers could not make a ship that flies only restriction no bound elementals use shards in any other way you wish i think there should be a way just an opinnion mind you.
Beleriphon 10-19-04, 02:59 PM	They are not above the law. Despite their great power, if Breland says to do something, house Lyrander better do it. They sure are above the law. They may not seem it up front, but think about this, if a country/ nation moves against them they pull up roots and leave. No more trade, no more travel. Or even better, they just assassinate the offending officials. I think the important part to remember is that the Dragonmarked Houses rival nations in power, and in some cases wealth. They command tremdous resources that in some cases are required by nations to actually operate. Think of it this way, what would happen if all of the petrochem companies in the US up and stopped producing their products, or decided to stop shippig them to the US? We'd be looking a bad situation for the US, its the same deal with the Dragonmarked Houses. If they pull out, business starts to collapse.
billseurer 10-19-04, 03:53 PM	TThink of it this way, what would happen if all of the petrochem companies in the US up and stopped producing their products, or decided to stop shippig them to the US? We'd be looking a bad situation for the US, its the same deal with the Dragonmarked Houses. If they pull out, business starts to collapse. The executives of the companies would be arrested, their assets in the US frozen, US companies would be forbidden to do business with them, and they'd collapse as companies overnight. Yeah, it'd be MAD all over again.
stembolt 10-19-04, 10:41 PM	They sure are above the law. They may not seem it up front, but think about this, if a country/ nation moves against them they pull up roots and leave. No more trade, no more travel. Or even better, they just assassinate the offending officials. The relationship between a country and its citizens is always symbiotic. Even to the lowly peasant. Remember without the peasant toiling in the fields the nobles cannot eat. The DM houses do have a lot of influence and may have much more latitude than others. But they are not completely above the law and they will have no special influence if they do not reciprocate. Besides there is 0% chance that a business will forsake one of its largest markets. I think the important part to remember is that the Dragonmarked Houses rival nations in power, and in some cases wealth. Again, Microsoft (House Cannith) may have more money than Guam (The Eldeen Reaches) but is that really a good comparison? Does House Cannith have more money than Breland? Not by a long shot. Something you learn in economics is that if a company is twice as big it does not make twice as much profit. A company is more likely to make twice as much if it is ten times as big and 4 times as much if it is 100 times as big (that’s if it is making any profit at all). (The technical term is logarithmic expansion for linear increase in profits.)
aelryinth 10-19-04, 11:56 PM	Economics! My major degree:) You are missing two points about the piracy thing. 1) 6th level captain to get Wind's Favor. Traditionally, pirates are the best captains on the sea. So, if a pirate is going to mess with a Lyrander ship, he's going to be a better pirate...i.e. higher level. 2) One mage or cleric with a focus on wind or sea/air magic can trump any Dragonmark of similar level, shut him down, and outperform him. Lyrandar doesn't have any advantage with wind's favor, because the pirates who would take them on would have it to, by dint of the spellcasting classes or magical items. I would think it would be horrendously common! Any captain who didn't have it would be at a major disadvantage over time because of the sheer amount of time lost in transit. 3) If Lyrandar is a monopoly and makes so much money, the extramarket forces brought to bear on them will be IMMENSE in a magical world. raiders, going for that collected gold. Rivals, looking for a peice of the action. Governments, looking for their own slice. Other merchants, ramping up their own prices for key items since they know Lyrandar could pay. Furthermore, if they ramp up the prices and people start complaining, governments respond. Monopolies have adverse economic effects, and wield a lout of clout most rulers simply wouldn't like. Remove the monopoly and many problems go away. That's why people are always trying to find ways to get rid of them...everyone does better once they go away. 4) The existence of the spellcasting classes and the nature of people means there exists a substantial non-Dragonmark rivalry. Is three levels in a Dragonmark Heir class as strong as a straight spellcaster? Highly debateable. And non-tattoed spellcasters will be quite eager to prove the superiority of their 'pure' focus. 5) If Lyrandar gets all the best cargo and makes the best money, they will be targets in a swashbuckling game. Pirates will go where the money is, and high level pirates will go where the best money is. 6) Airships can be brought down for much less money then they can be constructed. Hiriing a mage to take out an airship would cost a fraction of the value of the airship. There's no possible way to defend against all the things the mage could do. This will make putting airships into wartime with Heirs at the controls extremely risky! 7) The real power in any game with magic is people. Lyrandar can have lots of money and spread it around. The Lazar needs only to have loyal people tasked onto a specific goal to make life hell for Lyrandar...and the Lazar are pirates, sea traders, tough and focused. Any advantage House Lyrandar can come up with can be overcome by having the right person, not just by trying to match their ability to make gold. 8) A building can exist for a long time with holes in it's roof...you really have to take down the walls for the building to become useless. From a cost/risk standpoint, sending an airship into a battlefield is likely to be a very bad idea. As a quick troop transport, it has merit...but as soon as it starts costing the enemy lives, the enemy will tap the resources to get rid of it as a factor for much less money then it cost to make this fine new weapon. just my 2p ==Aelryinth
TwitchTheBard 10-20-04, 12:41 AM	I am thinking like a DM because that’s what I do. Secondly you have a very difficult case to posit here. Your assertion is that Lyrander is immune to any sort of piracy or criminal activity. Well you can prove your side once and for all by asking Keith if that is the case. I’ll let you do it so you cannot say I swayed him in any way. I'd just like to add a few things. Piracy was not, nor has ever been killed. The increase in the skill of the hunters just makes the few pirates remaining that much more skilled and intelligent. There are pirates raiding ships on Earth today. It is a profession. It's what people do. If you can turn one member of a crew, you can take a ship. If you can take out the sails... prevailing wind is worth rather less than it was. (Warforged with an eternal fireball wand in the water... under the water perhaps?) Heck, with the prevailing use of undead you could just build an artificial reef and have a few dozed skeletons start boarding when a ship sails by. Remember, the hardest targets to hit are often much more profitable, and a good pirate will always keep tabs on lucrative cargo no matter who or what is shipping it. And remember my assertion is that in order to combat the threat of falling rocks the defenders will take certain steps. The steps will make the use of rocks similar to the problems WWII bombers had. I will hazard a guess that the example of rocks was initially used as a simple example of tactics. It would be easy, cheap, and after a few practice runs, very effective against most fortified positions. Forcing said fortifications to adapt... as was mentioned. (That means I think it is a good point. ) ;) "Master, how can I defeat a swordsman of such great skill?" "With your sword? It would be impossible." "Then how master?" "Rocks. Throw rocks until they fall like rain... Then hit him with a stick... A big one." I espouse all uses of camouflage. And Sun Tzu disagrees with you. Nice use of Sun Tzu. :) TENS OF THOUSANDS? I doubt that there were many, if any, battles of this size. I may be wrong but if I am lets see a source. Besides, it would be multiple casters w/eternal wands... and the sudden immolation of an armies front line in a huge explosion of fiery death has a certain impact on one's motivation.
Somebloke 10-20-04, 01:02 AM	Two thoughts about piracy... Firstly, magical effects could be used to enhance sky ship movement. Charm monster could be used to subdue the elementals, as spelled out in the book. Dissatisfied members of house Lyandar, moderate level sorcerers and artificers...keep in mind the book also spells out quite clearly that privateers have access to ships. They will not all be nice people. In a fair fight they will most likely lose, so they will not fight fair. Let's not forget the easier access people have to flying animals...a squad of bandits on hippogriffs (makes for a flavorsome Lyrandar prince...grandson of a Dragonmarked heir, possessing a sky-fleet rather than mere boats...) plus any ship going anywhere near Droaam is going to have to deal with disturbingly organised harpy flocks. Let's also keep something in mind with this talk of house Lyandar against Breland...no house in centuries has ever attempted to gain any sort of political power. The houses work through Galifar; Galifar work through the houses. This is pretty much cemented into their subculture. If one moved against the other, both would suffer serious loss of power. That's what the War of the Mark established all that time ago, and why a second round has never occured.
stembolt 10-20-04, 01:40 AM	Except where noted below I agree with everything aelryinth said in his post. Another note to add to pirates, pirates are fighters and tricksters (rogues) whereas merchants are merchants (expert). Also despite the general versatility of a true spellcaster the potent combo is the DM Heir and a magical ship + wheel. The elemental galleon can constantly be under the effects of a strong favorable wind. 8) A building can exist for a long time with holes in it's roof...you really have to take down the walls for the building to become useless. A building has more structural members than exterior walls. The walls will do you little good if the floors collapse inside the building. On a castle it is probably harder not to hit something important structurally. From a cost/risk standpoint, sending an airship into a battlefield is likely to be a very bad idea. As a quick troop transport, it has merit...but as soon as it starts costing the enemy lives, the enemy will tap the resources to get rid of it as a factor for much less money then it cost to make this fine new weapon I would be unlikely to send troops to the front lines using a flying ship, but…it could happen. First off I think the number one use of flying ships would be to send out emergency reinforcements to border outposts. Little risk for very high payoff for the home country. Also it is a defensive action, the moral high ground. As for entering a battlefield, it is unlikely they would be dropping troops off. It would be better to drop off at a distance, to allow the troops to form up and get ready to confront the enemy. Also even with minor modifications a flying ship is a devastating weapon on the battle field. Much more so than a few lousy troops. I doubt that Lyrander has the stomach for such whole scale slaughter, so the use of troops is more likely. Also it would actually be fairly expensive to take out a flying ship. You would need teleport or fly a significant amount of firepower up to the ship. That being said simply harassing the ship changes the equation significantly. If a ship has to deal with griffon riders they are not spending all their time slaughtering soldiers. But, having the ship as a threat will still serve as a weapon of sorts. If you have a ship, your opponents must have a ship or at least some griffon riders. That is an expense that affects their military budget. I will hazard a guess that the example of rocks was initially used as a simple example of tactics. Yes, rocks are easy to find and effective to use. Until the enemy adapts that is. Let's also keep something in mind with this talk of house Lyandar against Breland...no house in centuries has ever attempted to gain any sort of political power. The houses work through Galifar; Galifar work through the houses. This is pretty much cemented into their subculture. If one moved against the other, both would suffer serious loss of power. That's what the War of the Mark established all that time ago, and why a second round has never occurred This assessment is off somewhat. DM Houses wield quite significant political power, they just do not seek to occupy positions of leadership. In other words the DM Houses do not try to become kings or lesser lords, however they do like to have input in their specific areas of interest.
Somebloke 10-20-04, 02:01 AM	Except where noted below I agree with everything aelryinth said in his post. Another note to add to pirates, pirates are fighters and tricksters (rogues) whereas merchants are merchants (expert). Also despite the general versatility of a true spellcaster the potent combo is the DM Heir and a magical ship + wheel. The elemental galleon can constantly be under the effects of a strong favorable wind. Also it would actually be fairly expensive to take out a flying ship. You would need teleport or fly a significant amount of firepower up to the ship. That being said simply harassing the ship changes the equation significantly. If a ship has to deal with griffon riders they are not spending all their time slaughtering soldiers. But, having the ship as a threat will still serve as a weapon of sorts. If you have a ship, your opponents must have a ship or at least some griffon riders. That is an expense that affects their military budget. Yes, rocks are easy to find and effective to use. Until the enemy adapts that is. I've already incorporated this into my campaign. It's one of the reasons any sort of military technology based on skyships has been banned under the Thronehold treaty...no-one wants to start a new arms race. I've taken the stance that a properly built and fortified skyship would have the same power and mystique as a dreadnought battleship... This assessment is off somewhat. DM Houses wield quite significant political power, they just do not seek to occupy positions of leadership. In other words the DM Houses do not try to become kings or lesser lords, however they do like to have input in their specific areas of interest. That's more or less what I meant.
stembolt 10-20-04, 03:01 AM	I've already incorporated this into my campaign. It's one of the reasons any sort of military technology based on skyships has been banned under the Thronehold treaty...no-one wants to start a new arms race. I've taken the stance that a properly built and fortified skyship would have the same power and mystique as a dreadnought battleship... I have a campaign idea mapped out where the PCs are Weapons inspectors making sure countries are obeying the treaty of thronehold. In my case the prohibition is of “flying constructs larger than human size being created for the purpose of war.” There is also a prohibition on invisible constructs.
Roxlimn 10-21-04, 12:03 AM	stembolt: In the real world National Identity is one of the cornerstones of the early modern period. This is when Germans started to think of themselves as Germans as opposed to “Bavarians.” Chinese and Japanese thought of themselves as such long before the modern period. Um, The dragonmarked houses. Six out of every ten people are lower class, poor people. Three out of ten are middle class and one out of ten are upper class, rich people. The majority of people in Khorvaire are poor, and comparitively, more people are rich compared to a modern, industrialized nation. I do not understand where this large middle class is hiding out. Dragonmarked House members are upper middle class or upper class. They're there, but they still are not beyond the statistics mentioned. You missed the allusions to the “Code of Galfar” Which allusion is similar to the provisions of the Magna Carta? Like North America, for example? You're right. I accidentally left out North America in my thinking. Breland is the law. That’s it. Any merchant must respect, to some degree, the laws of a nation or they will be out of work. You obviously don't understand how much power these people wield. Comparing a merchant prince to "any merchant" is like comparing a king with a peasant. That is simply so asinine I am going to ignore it. Or I was sick when they covered that under monopolies in economics. Suffice to say that even monopolies face market pressures. Of course they do. Even then, it might be more correct to say that monopolies control market pressures. You have to understand that when we say "market", here, we don't really mean market as in one that has competition. We're just saying the forces between the many buyers and one single, uncontestable seller. If you're curriculum covered monopolies in your school, they must have meant monopolies in an open market schema or they themselves have a limited understanding of what a monopoloy can really do. I live in a nation that's got 2 monopolies and two cartels I'm aware of. Market prices and forces affect them to some extent, but not anything like the extent you seem to be familiar with. It would be more correct to say that they control the market rather than the other way around. Mortars are parabolic weapons they always strike from above. I don't suppose the lateral movement affects the outcome any. Any core structural damage to a building, such as to the cross bracings, will result in building failure. You would apparently be surprised how much the different parts of the building support each other. My father's an architect and I help him design modern homes. I've also read many of his books regarding the history of building design. No, I wouldn't be surprised how much the different parts of a building supported each other. No, a fort wall wouldn't collapse from have its roof cave in, if it had one to begin with. Unfortunately you are against logic. Armies of that size are fantastical. (it is however a fantasy world) I’ll look in the book to see if there are any mentions of army sizes. Riiight. When you're the one proposing the argument, it's logic, but when I make one, it's sound and fury. Maybe we should stick to the arguments. Attacking the person is the fallacy of ad hominem. You have to show where my arguments are actually illogical as opposed to just saying that they are. Airships are new, but they certainly are in common usage. A treatise on Napoleonic style warfare is far beyond the scope of this thread. We don't need a treatise. The relationship between a country and its citizens is always symbiotic. Even to the lowly peasant. Remember without the peasant toiling in the fields the nobles cannot eat. The DM houses do have a lot of influence and may have much more latitude than others. But they are not completely above the law and they will have no special influence if they do not reciprocate. Besides there is 0% chance that a business will forsake one of its largest markets. Peasants by themselves are not powerful, however a union involving every single peasant in the kingdom is incredibly powerful. Dragonmarked Houses are not just affected by the law, to a very great extent, they are in fact above it, much like many nobles and royal personalities. A Dragonmarked House already has a very strong, powerful and special influence based on the fact that it's got a monopoly on some of the most powerful and necessary functions in Khorvaire, never mind the fact that they control the major magewright guilds associated with those trades. A Dragonmarked House will embargo a country if it feels like the cost is commensurate with the gains. They're merchants, after all, and naturally pragmatic when it comes to these things. Even multinational companies today exhibit some of these traits, even though they aren't monopolies. Imagine, if you will, a single European conglomerate that not only distributes but supplies the oil to every city and town in the continent, but also is a powerful retail presence in each one. Imagine you can't get oil from any other source. Imagine that it has considerable holdings in each country and that each of these countries are naturally indifferent to each other, if not outright unfriendly. Now think that these countries are feudal monarchies. In this scenario, how much power do you think a family member of this conglomerate will hold? Do you really think that it is incapable of altering the price exactly as it wishes to brutally maximize the profits it will get? You think it can't ruin any single nation given that it really wanted to? You think it won't survive this sort of offensive action? These guys are monopolies and they're multinational in a feudal world. They wield so much power and wealth that it's almost scary to think about it. Again, Microsoft (House Cannith) may have more money than Guam (The Eldeen Reaches) but is that really a good comparison? Does House Cannith have more money than Breland? Not by a long shot. Care to contest that? Cannith probably has more money than Breland given that it's the House of Making and controls not only individuals with fabricate but also Sky Forges that make such use even more efficient. If there's any single individual who's looking to make fabricate or magecraft a source of income, you can bet your booty that Cannith'll come down on his ass so fast his head'll spin. Cannith controls this sort of thing and will not tolerate competition. Every single magewright who makes anything of any significance would belong to the Tinkers or Fabricators Guild, which Cannith controls. Even if this sort of control were in Breland alone, House Cannith would equal a noble house in power and wealth. Now think about the fact that House Cannith does this in every single nation in Khorvaire. Cannith would easily rival any of the five nations in Khorvaire, no questions asked. Something you learn in economics is that if a company is twice as big it does not make twice as much profit. A company is more likely to make twice as much if it is ten times as big and 4 times as much if it is 100 times as big (that’s if it is making any profit at all). (The technical term is logarithmic expansion for linear increase in profits.) Care to apply this sort of thinking to a multinational monopoly? A building has more structural members than exterior walls. The walls will do you little good if the floors collapse inside the building. On a castle it is probably harder not to hit something important structurally. Would you care to cite a source on Castle siege or fortification structures that says that the floors are vital and vulnerable elements on the exterior walls? Which particular siege event in history makes you think that hitting a castle floor from 400 feet straight up is a good idea? aelryinth: 1) 6th level captain to get Wind's Favor. Traditionally, pirates are the best captains on the sea. So, if a pirate is going to mess with a Lyrander ship, he's going to be a better pirate...i.e. higher level. Again, you're thinking like stembolt does, on an individual level. Lyrandar has Airships, Elemental Galleons and other sundry vessels with Dragonmarked Captains. They will protect their interests and they can, being a sea power. If a pirate vessel were to attack one of their ships, they would likely track down that pirate and kill him where he stands, or wait for him on the open seas and send him to Davy Jones' locker. If a pirate were to mess with a Lyrandar ship, he would have to be of higher level than the highest level character that Lyrandar can send to look for him, which is going to be pretty darned high. I agree that such a pirate captain might exist, except that High Prince Ryger ir'Wynarn is only a Ranger 9 and he's supposed to be the deadliest pirate in the Lhazaar Principalities. If such a pirate exists, he must, as I said, be not only the most powerful sea captain in the world, but also the most slippery. He'd be no less than legendary in stature. 2) One mage or cleric with a focus on wind or sea/air magic can trump any Dragonmark of similar level, shut him down, and outperform him. Lyrandar doesn't have any advantage with wind's favor, because the pirates who would take them on would have it to, by dint of the spellcasting classes or magical items. I would think it would be horrendously common! Any captain who didn't have it would be at a major disadvantage over time because of the sheer amount of time lost in transit. My point exactly, except that wind's favor is a unique effect. No specific spell can duplicate its effects, arcane or divine, and the only magic item that mimicks it is the Wheel of Wind and Water, which only a Dragonmarked can operate. You could I suppose, rule that it can and has been researched by spell and magic item alike, but no mention is made of such influence anywhere, and it would be a house rule. Indeed, what level would a wind's favor spell be, if such a thing did exist? Let's presume that such spells and magic items exist. Mages and Clerics are still quite rare, however, and most of them who wield magic not for their own purposes and dieties will probably be coerced to join the Windwright's Guild or face who knows what end. This guild is controlled by Lyrandar, all over the continent. If a wind's favor item exists, Lyrandar would hunt it down and buy it, steal it, or destroy it, in much the same way Cannith protects its Forges. They'd be relatively common, alright, but every single legally owned wind's favor item would be in the hands of Lyrandar! Add to this the additional uses per day that a Dragonmarked Captain can call upon, and you have Lyrandar sea domniation written all over the continent, no matter what the scenario. A pirate in this circumstance would be even more pressed because not only will he have a few dozen wind favored ships going against his one or two, he's going to have to deal with all the sea magic the Five Nations can produce pounding on his back. I rather liked his chances before. 3) If Lyrandar is a monopoly and makes so much money, the extramarket forces brought to bear on them will be IMMENSE in a magical world. raiders, going for that collected gold. Rivals, looking for a peice of the action. Governments, looking for their own slice. Other merchants, ramping up their own prices for key items since they know Lyrandar could pay. Sure. The extramarket forces would be immense. The understanding here is that Lyrandar can and has dealt with it, since it has existed all these centuries. In fact, given that it's existed all that time, you might say it's been around the block and knows what to expect. Gold would probably travel by bank with Kundarak to minimize transit time and to increase Lyrandar's credit rating with the dwarves. Rivals don't exist, because Lyrandar would quash anything even resembling something of the sort right quick. It's a monopoly, it doesn't have rivals. Governments would pressure Lyrandar as far as they dare, but no farther, and not very far, I think. "Other merchants", meaning any of the other major monopolies on the scene, I suppose, would not risk the open war of the War of the Mark again, so I don't think they'll pressure Lyrandar all that much, if any. After all, Lyrandar is the merchant's merchant - they deliver transport services vital to any merchant outfit. They wouldn't antagonize Lyrandar all that much, if at all. Again, the thing to remember is that world economics in Khorvaire is mainly manipulated by huge multinational monopolies, not free market forces. There are no "rivals". There are no "other merchants". Furthermore, if they ramp up the prices and people start complaining, governments respond. Monopolies have adverse economic effects, and wield a lout of clout most rulers simply wouldn't like. Remove the monopoly and many problems go away. That's why people are always trying to find ways to get rid of them...everyone does better once they go away. Tell that to the Khorvairians. As far as they know, Dragonmarked Houses are the best thing since sliced bread... ...do they have sliced bread in Khorvaire? :confused: 4) The existence of the spellcasting classes and the nature of people means there exists a substantial non-Dragonmark rivalry. Is three levels in a Dragonmark Heir class as strong as a straight spellcaster? Highly debateable. And non-tattoed spellcasters will be quite eager to prove the superiority of their 'pure' focus. Monopoly. M O N O P O L Y. Doesn't seem like it's that hard to look at. I can understand that it may not be that easy for an uninitiated person to understand. Any significant spellcaster - mostly magewrights - who practices the profression is absorbed into the Guilds. Guilds that the respective Dragonmarked Houses control. There may be rivalries, but what rivalries do exist would be strictly in-house. 5) If Lyrandar gets all the best cargo and makes the best money, they will be targets in a swashbuckling game. Pirates will go where the money is, and high level pirates will go where the best money is. I agree. Ocean's 11 doesn't go for cheap dime and nickel stores. They go where the money's at. Of course, it doesn't seem like these people are run of the mill criminals. Neither will any pirate who would prey on a Lyrandar vessel. Such criminals would be fantastically cunning and powerful, and they'd quickly go to ground right away. That's why I'm saying that attacks on Lyrandar ships would either be one-ofs, or done by a legendary pirate, or both. 6) Airships can be brought down for much less money then they can be constructed. Hiriing a mage to take out an airship would cost a fraction of the value of the airship. There's no possible way to defend against all the things the mage could do. This will make putting airships into wartime with Heirs at the controls extremely risky! We don't know what justifies putting Airships into wartime use. All we know is that Keith Baker says they were used as such. 7) The real power in any game with magic is people. Lyrandar can have lots of money and spread it around. The Lazar needs only to have loyal people tasked onto a specific goal to make life hell for Lyrandar...and the Lazar are pirates, sea traders, tough and focused. Any advantage House Lyrandar can come up with can be overcome by having the right person, not just by trying to match their ability to make gold. Care to be more specific? Somebloke Let's not forget the easier access people have to flying animals...a squad of bandits on hippogriffs (makes for a flavorsome Lyrandar prince...grandson of a Dragonmarked heir, possessing a sky-fleet rather than mere boats...) plus any ship going anywhere near Droaam is going to have to deal with disturbingly organised harpy flocks. If such a Prince were to exist, he would probably be High Prince, not Ryger. Let's also keep something in mind with this talk of house Lyandar against Breland...no house in centuries has ever attempted to gain any sort of political power. Merchant Houses hold considerable political influence, whether or not they work for it, or want it. It's a natural occurrence when you have that much money in your hand. To Everyone: I think people aren't getting the significance that Dragonmarked Houses aren't just powerful merchant outfits in a free market scenario. They're monopolies and multinationals. And they've existed for hundreds of years. If there's any rivals to begin with, the Merchant House would have eliminated any such forces long ago and would need to have maintained such a position in its tenure in order to classify as a Merchant House in such a position as outlined in ECS. They don't have rivals. They can't have rivals. As soon as any spellcasting (or even nonspellcasting) individual goes out to practice or influence the trade, the House pounces on him and brings him into the fold. Likely, a representative has been watching him for some time. No small outfit or individual efforts are going to appear out of the woodwork, and if any such do, no laws protect them from savage elimination. This is a feudal monarchy environment with a monopoly tradition backed by the last Empire to hold power. It's even probable that what laws are in the Code of Galifar support the practices of the Dragonmarked Houses. A pirate daring to attack a Lyrandar ship is like a pirate attacking a British Navy supply vessel off Gibraltar at the height of the power of the British Navy, except that Lyrandar is far more powerful as a sea power. He could do it, I suppose, but if it happens at all, it will be very rare, and it won't happen with any degree of regularity. It'll most probably be a rogue Lyrandar Captain, too. So, no, an Airship dedicated just for spotting and only for spotting pirate ships is too expensive and a waste of time and money, IMO.
Brastan 10-21-04, 01:24 AM	:OMG! Wow, now thats a (long) post. :D I appreciate your insight on Monopolies, Roxlimn. Its been a long time since the United States has know a real monopoly. A pirate might not act on his or her on initiative. They would be backed by an number of organizations. From nations acting covertly to the Cult of the Dragon Below or even members of house Lyrandar (family squabbles are fun). (They would also field a more powerful force because the Plot demands it. IMO) House Lyrandar is not a military House so they don't have elite pirate hunters. The mercenary producing House(name escapes me at the moment) would throw a fit (militarily back) if Lyrandar started its own crack combat division. Any guards above 2nd level on an Airship or Galley would be ether Adventures or other hired mercenaries. IMO (the REAL force in the setting is the Players and their Characters, not an imagery market or shadowy politics. The PCs have more power than any of the Houses. They can make or brake them. Lets not put the setting before the Players. )
stembolt 10-21-04, 01:37 AM	Well this argument has fallen apart. Roxlimn started well and then lost objectivity. I had prepared responses to about half his points when I suddenly realized how comprehensively mistaken it all is. So basically I have tried explaining things several times and Roxlimn still does not understand. That’s fine, I’m just not going to waste my time on someone who won’t even try to learn. If everyone else is wondering about the arguments that Roxlimn has made, they are comprehensively fallacious. Basically just see all of my previous points.
Roxlimn 10-21-04, 02:40 AM	Brastan: Thanks for the support. I live to serve! :bow: :) A pirate might not act on his or her on initiative. They would be backed by an number of organizations. From nations acting covertly to the Cult of the Dragon Below or even members of house Lyrandar (family squabbles are fun). Kolberkon at Point Verge is currently currying favor from the Order of the Emerald Claw and House Lyrandar. Thus, it might be more correct to say that Lyrandar was making roads into the Principalities rather than the other way around. With the kind of sea power Lyrandar can wield, and in a region so dependent on sea trade, I imagine that even Ryger would not want to attract Lyrandar's ire. He'd probably want to placate them, or have them indifferent at the very least. It's clear that the Lyrandar monopoly on merchant shipping does not extend into the Principalities and that shipping things into the region is at least as dependent on Lhazaar privateer shipping as it does on Lyrandar shipping, if not more. The Isle for Farlnen on is also the stronghold of the Blood of Vol so you should see a fair representation of their interests in the Lhazaar population, though being an island base, I doubt they want to antagonize people who can turn a storm-tossed island into a tropical paradise. They're all too likely to be able to do the exact opposite. Prince Mika Cloudface is also a likely candidate for a rogue Prince, but since she's only a 6th level Barbarian, I doubt she can muster enough resources to seriously threaten Lyrandar shipping while keeping her own hide. A more possible pirate strong enough to kill Lyrandar vessels is whoever it is who's using the Ship of Bones as a cover. Someone who can muster enough magic to pull off that ruse is probably powerful enough to chase and kill a Lyrandar vessel, and the ruse provides perfect cover so Lyrandar doesn't hie off to level his island. Of course, he can't be targetting Lyrandar shipping specifically, or too much or the Matriarch will send someone to look after it, even if it is just a legend. House Lyrandar is not a military House so they don't have elite pirate hunters. The mercenary producing House(name escapes me at the moment) would throw a fit (militarily back) if Lyrandar started its own crack combat division. House Deneith couldn't care less what Lyrandar does with its own troops as long as it stays out of the mercenary business, and I don't personally see Lyrandar people as mercenaries. Lyrandar isn't a military house, but that doesn't mean that it lacks the resources to defend itself at sea. Likely, due to the Last War, its ships are adapted for breaking blockades and dealing with various universal threats. They would also very likely develop their own private forces to deal with the many dangers at sea, as no country in the Five Nations can help them out with a problem in open water, like pirates. They may even be doing some of piratical activity themselves, sinking ships of outfits that are not currently under direct control, or who have plans of striking out on their own, just so that the rest of the flock respects the Guild laws. I think that Lyrandar could very well have something like Merchant Marines, or something similar, which is very well in keeping with their image as a sea power and as a merchant house that specializes in shipping. It also protects their political interests as they will be less beholden to other powers for the protection of their assets. In all, I don't see any reason why Lyrandar would not develop significant arms of its own. stembolt: If you think you have espoused your ideas adequately enough for others to appreciate them, then by all means bow out of the discussion, though I suspect you might be able to do it with a bit more grace.
nyysjan 10-21-04, 02:45 AM	In my uneducated and uninformed opinion i would say that the Dragonmark "not the capital D" houses would be similar to the behemoth corporations in the cyberpunk genre "if you don't know what i mean go and read some books" where the national governments are losing power and the corporations do whatewer they d*mn well please. In Eberron the usual monarchies and governments are still in place but i could see how the development could go in eather direction depending of the GM running the game and both rise and fall of the governments would be up to a point logical and justified. They are standing on an edge looking down to the dark pit will they back down or take a bold step forward.