Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wymarc 06-30-07, 01:17 AM	my complaint about FoW is not about Thrane, but about Bombards(pg. 16). Bombards were a primitive cannon. As in a big gun. With gunpowder. Anyone else notice this?
gensuke626 06-30-07, 01:23 AM	I noticed it... Personally, when I saw the word Bombards I just replaced it with the phrase "Giant Fireball thrower"
Mouseferatu 06-30-07, 01:27 AM	Hmm... I didn't write that section, and I'd missed that reference, but I think I like the idea. Not the idea of gunpowder. It has, and (IMO) will never have, any place in Eberron. But I do like the idea of a large weapon, with an air elemental bound to it, that uses sudden intense bursts of wind to fling projectiles in a straight or lightly-arced trajectory that normal catapults cannot manage. Hell, I think I may just write one of those up, next chance I have to work on an Eberron book/article. "Elemental bombards." :D Would that solve your objection adequately? :)
DBlizzard 06-30-07, 02:02 AM	Would that solve your objection adequately? :) Maybe. Still this idea has been creeping into Eberron lately from various WotC directions. Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebxe/20070625c) the RPGA has a poll up for Xen'drik Expeditions with a warforged listed named "Cannon" because "this female-personality warforged has been likened to a cannon." I don't like the direction at all.
Mouseferatu 06-30-07, 02:07 AM	Maybe. Still this idea has been creeping into Eberron lately from various WotC directions. Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebxe/20070625c) the RPGA has a poll up for Xen'drik Expeditions with a warforged listed named "Cannon" because "this female-personality warforged has been likened to a cannon." I don't like the direction at all. Now see, I don't care for that much myself. "Elemental bombard" is one thing, but going as far as cannons is definitely too much.
Archangel62 06-30-07, 02:30 AM	Am I the only one who finds it odd that gunpowder is bad but a cannon shaped item launcher powered by elemental is ok? Just saying that I find the stance to be a little peculiar all things considered.
The White Sorcerer 06-30-07, 02:33 AM	Am I the only one who finds it odd that gunpowder is bad but a cannon shaped item launcher powered by elemental is ok? Why wouldn't it be ok?
Mouseferatu 06-30-07, 02:36 AM	Am I the only one who finds it odd that gunpowder is bad but a cannon shaped item launcher powered by elemental is ok? Just saying that I find the stance to be a little peculiar all things considered. It's entirely a question of the feel of the item, and the source of its power. Gunpowder is a scientific invention, one that falls outside the normal parameters of D&D. It's a step--a major step--toward the "steampunk" milieu, and while there's nothing wrong with that in and of itself, it's not Eberron. Elemental magics, OTOH, are not only preexisting, but a major element of Eberron "technology." An "elemental weapon" is far more appropriate to Eberron--in terms of themes, in terms of feel, and in terms of a logical progression of wartime development--than a gunpowder-based weapon. (And also, for the record, I never claimed that the elemental bombard idea would necessarily look just like a normal cannon. I have no idea what it would look like; it was an idea I came up with on the spur of the moment to explain away the "bombard" reference.)
Archangel62 06-30-07, 02:54 AM	(And also, for the record, I never claimed that the elemental bombard idea would necessarily look just like a normal cannon. I have no idea what it would look like; it was an idea I came up with on the spur of the moment to explain away the "bombard" reference.) I guess it's just that it somewhat irritates and amuses me that gunpowder itself is listed as improper but if I made the same thing,same shape, same stats, and said it was powered by an elemental it's fine. I guess the katana debates and other stuff have me looking at it similarly, we could have a weapon called the katana, some will think it's fine, some will scream that it's too strong, others too weak. As a side note I have no problem with the idea of an elementally powered weapon, heroes of battle show them and I find them to be quite logical in concept for a world like eberron. My issue here is that if you call them guns people get angry, call them elemental charge shots and people think they're great.
Mouseferatu 06-30-07, 03:02 AM	I guess it's just that it somewhat irritates and amuses me that gunpowder itself is listed as improper but if I made the same thing,same shape, same stats, and said it was powered by an elemental it's fine. Ah, but couldn't one make the same argument about a lot of what's in Eberron? I'd be irked if someone insisted that Eberron had trains, or robots. It doesn't. The lightning rail isn't a train. The warforged aren't robots. But they're both, at least on very cursory examination, similar in concept. Dig beneath the surface, you realize there are vital differences, but on casual inspection, they look an awful lot alike. I see this as being a similar situation. I don't want to see cannons, or traditional bombards, in Eberron. But now that bombards have been mentioned, I think the concept can be salvaged by looking to the prior examples for inspiration.
DBlizzard 06-30-07, 04:16 AM	AI'd be irked if someone insisted that Eberron had trains, or robots. It doesn't. The lightning rail isn't a train. Exactly what I was going to say. There is a reason that the lightning rail wasn't called a train, and an airship isn't a blimp (or plane). It's to make sure you understand that it's different. What some designers seem to miss is that Eberron doesn't have advanced technology. It does have some things that operate like technological things in our world (or at least what we had in the 1920s), but they don't operate based on any technology we didn't have in the traditional D&D setting. Instead of technology they operate on magic. Call it "magicology" if you must. IMO, inclusion of gunpowder intrudes on Eberron's flavor. If you want it in your game, go ahead. But keep it out of my game and canon Eberron. My issue here is that if you call them guns people get angry, call them elemental charge shots and people think they're great. Because they are an intrusion. I'd have a lot more issues with the lightning rail if they called it a train. If they call them guns, that's intruding into the flavor. Elemental bursts doesn't intrude.
Rechan 06-30-07, 04:33 AM	How far do we make this distinction? I mean, gunpowder = arrived by science. So, does this also mean that the catapult is out of bounds, because it operates under science? Simply using physics and clever engineering, no magic involved. At what point is science allowed to associate with Eberron? Does it rain because water vapor gets too heavy in the clouds, or because the forces of nature are angry and chaotic at the time (Or because Lyander tells it to). Does water turn to ice because of the temperature, or because the element of Fire literally leaves the water's composition, turning it into ice? Is it gravity that makes things fall, or is it the actual power of Khyber or Eberron pulling something downwards? If that's the flavor you're going for, that works fine. Exalted, for example, is a world that is made up completely of magical energy. Things are what they are because that is how they are DEFINED, conceptually. Fire is hot because the magic says 'Fire = hot'. If you want to change something, or cause an effect, you merely learn how to redefine the energy or convert it to something new. Or you exert the power you have - it rains because the local weather spirit makes it rain. Or it rains because the local weather spirits are fighting in the Spirit World, thunder is their weapons clashing, lightning is their anger, and rain is their blood. I'm just curious as to where the line is drawn in the sand how far science is allowed to interact.
Syltorian 06-30-07, 08:12 AM	I noticed it... Personally, when I saw the word Bombards I just replaced it with the phrase "Giant Fireball thrower" Same here, after the initial sigh. Heroes of Battle already had elemental siege weapons, though they are admittedly not called 'bombards'. I'd personally make a bombard a variant of the Dragonshot Catapult (p.135), which uses magic to hurl its ammunition out of a tube shaped like a dragon's mouth. Easier to carry around than a trebuchet. Another question related to this topic, though: The Thaliost section mentions that the Scions Liberation Front occasionally blows up entire government buildings. I'm not against the concept of a 'gunpowder plot' existing in Eberron, except for the use of 'gunpowder', obviously. So, how does one go about doing that... without high-level magic or prohibitively expensive items, or accumulating several tens of thousands of alchemist's fire bottles (which would admittedly suit the gunpowder plot image of several barrels stored under Parliament)? Provided that actually blows things up, rather than setting fire to the building. We're not talking about arson, after all.
Nived 06-30-07, 08:18 AM	They'd still have barrels of oil... Or Dwarven Spirits. Plenty of highly explosive barrels o stuff that are not gunpowder.
Rechan 06-30-07, 08:36 AM	As for explosives... 1) Grain or powder in the air. Grain silos explode periodically because the air is filled with flammable grain in a confined space, and if somehow it becomes lit, BOOM. 2) Chemicals. I think it would be reasonable to say that some chemicals that are byproducts of alchemical processes could be highly explosive, but highly volatile (like Nitro glisteren or the chemical byproduct from cooking meth). That volatile nature makes them very hazardous to cart around, so any sort of bomb would need to be constructed on site or very close by. 3) Gas. Methane is a naturally occuring flammable gas. You can have explosions that occur in the swamps, for example, where methane bubbles up to the surface and is somehow lit. Pump enough gas in the air and light it and bang. 4) Violent chemical reaction in general. There are certain elements in the periodic table that react explosively to other elements. I forget which it is, but if you introduce one element to water, it goes BOOM spectacularly. Get enough of Element X, introduce it to Element Y, and you have yourself a party. 5) Any sort of flammable object in a tightly confined or pressurized space. If you have enough flammable material in a room, throw a torch in and close the door, it's going to likely blow the wall out, if the wall isn't stone or reinforced. Do that in a room that is holding the structural integrity of the building, and it's all comin' down. Furthermore, C4 works this way. The blast is force that projects outwards that does the damage. So, anything that can just produce enough energy to demolish the surrounding area would do it. What could accomplish that, I don't know.
mfaulkner 06-30-07, 08:56 AM	Another thought maybe that the use of the term Bombard is used because there was no other term to relay what was wanting to be said. The use of terms (for the English language) describes things so that we can understand its meaning. I agree with the air elemental bombard/cannon. If it is named/termed something new, you then have to use terms we know to understand/describe it. So with this possible air elemental thing, we now have the reason for the destruction of Cyre and the Day of Mourning: an inter-continental balistic elemental bomb!
The White Sorcerer 06-30-07, 10:03 AM	The lightning rail isn't a train. Yup. It's as much a train as a railroad is a train. However, the coach and the cars it pulls are indeed a train.
DBlizzard 06-30-07, 12:40 PM	How far do we make this distinction? I mean, gunpowder = arrived by science. IMO, the technology shouldn't advance further than it does in the standard D&D setting. I'm a bit vague on that because the standard D&D setting isn't exactly consistent about time period (mostly medieval technology, but occasionally renaissance era).
gensuke626 06-30-07, 06:53 PM	I'm just curious as to where the line is drawn in the sand how far science is allowed to interact. I don't think it's so much that Science doesn't belong in the realm of Eberron, as Industrial Era Technology doesn't fit the setting. While Cannons and Bombards existed as early as the renissance, I think that the point of divergence occured somewhere near there. They developed Catapults, Trebuchets, Ballista, ect. but when it came to "How do we knock down those castle walls?" They didn't need to create explosives via science, they could just use magic. Gunpowder, to me, is quite possibly the most important invention of it's Era, but I think Eberron took a "Magic is more common than gunpowder" approach. So it may rain because the water is too heavy in the clouds, but it might just be the gods crying. Catapults and Ballista are already in the setting, so obviously there is a calling to give some measure of power to non-magical types, but since magical items can grant powers to non-magic users, why would we need something as dirty and unreliable as gunpowder? When it comes to things like the Scion's Liberation Front blowing up buildings, I'm sure there are ways to do it, even with low level magic. Can't think of it off the top of my head...but enough scrolls of Fireball crafted by a lvl 3 artificer...
Mouseferatu 06-30-07, 07:38 PM	Yup. It's as much a train as a railroad is a train. However, the coach and the cars it pulls are indeed a train. You knew what I meant. :P But okay, fine. Replace "train" with "locomotive" in my prior post, if it makes you happy. ;)
Rechan 06-30-07, 08:01 PM	You knew what I meant. :P But okay, fine. Replace "train" with "locomotive" in my prior post, if it makes you happy. ;) So, then the Lightning Rail is just a monorail or subway train? ;)
The White Sorcerer 07-01-07, 01:05 AM	You knew what I meant. :P But okay, fine. Replace "train" with "locomotive" in my prior post, if it makes you happy. ;) Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine. Also, the word "locomotive" ("a powered rail vehicle used for pulling trains," according to my dictionary) happens to describe a lightning rail coach perfectly. It's a train, it's a locomotive, and neither of those is a bad thing.
Mouseferatu 07-01-07, 01:34 AM	Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine. You're fighting a losing battle with that one. To most people, the word "train" may have multiple meanings, but the first and foremost one--the one they first think of--is a railroad train. It's what I meant. Everyone knew that it's what I meant. Let's not obscure the issue at hand any further than we have to, okay?
Toloran 07-01-07, 04:08 AM	You're fighting a losing battle with that one. To most people, the word "train" may have multiple meanings, but the first and foremost one--the one they first think of--is a railroad train. It's what I meant. Everyone knew that it's what I meant. Let's not obscure the issue at hand any further than we have to, okay? I don't think it is obscuring the issue at all. You can keep trying to use different words but that doesn't change the fact that they are basically the same thing (superficially or otherwise). If you got very specific, such as describing it as a "steam powered locomotive" then you are correct in that they are different. It isn't a steam-powered locomotive, it is a magic-powered locomotive. There is nothing wrong with calling it such since that is exactly what it is. Yes it has connotations that people my disapprove of in eberron but that doesn't change what it is. Now, on to gunpowder: Gunpowder makes no sense in eberron considering how prevalent magic and magic items are. Why bother developing gunpowder when you have a simple (and using some house Cannith production techniques, it is quite cheap) for a Necklace of Fireballs that not only does (basically) the same thing but does it even more efficiently? If you are using the gunpowder for a hand-held gun, why not just use an eternal wand of Magic Missile (or a normal wand of Magic Missile)? The wand never misses and doesn't care about how heavily armored your target is (and the eternal one doesn't even require a UMD check to boot). Lastly, on Cannon in general: Magically run cannons make perfect sense for a war type setting. They are easier to use then a wand (since they are generally a Wonderous item and don't need a UMD check) and they are generally more powerful. The only reason why it it running off of magic rather then gunpowder matters is purely roleplaying and flavor reasons. Just like I'd much rather my weapon be a brilliant energy sword rather then a lightsaber. One fits in the setting, the other does not.
Syltorian 07-01-07, 07:14 AM	As for explosives... Thanks for those suggestions, Rechan. Thanks also to the others who answered, Nived and Gensuke. All of those could work, given enough quantities and strategical placement.
shironiku 07-01-07, 08:29 AM	Why bother developing gunpowder when you have a simple (and using some house Cannith production techniques, it is quite cheap) for a Necklace of Fireballs that not only does (basically) the same thing but does it even more efficiently? I think a Necklace of Fireballs is a poor comparison to a gun. A Necklace of Fireballs is more like a bandolier of grenades. They have limited range, limited accuracy, and limited flexibility in use. That's not to say that they aren't powerful and useful, but sometimes you need something that's a little more controllable and accurate than a grenade. Different tools, different jobs. If you are using the gunpowder for a hand-held gun, why not just use an eternal wand of Magic Missile (or a normal wand of Magic Missile)? The wand never misses and doesn't care about how heavily armored your target is (and the eternal one doesn't even require a UMD check to boot). An Eternal Wand can only be used twice a day, making it next to useless as a battlefield weapon. A regular wand of Magic Missile makes far more sense, but it also requires the user to either have a level in a spellcasting class of the appropriate type or to be trained in the Use Magic Device skill, neither of which are likely to be the case when talking about a rank-and-file trooper. (Personally, I think that a magic-rich world such as Eberron should either add UMD to the list of class skills for every class--except Barbarian--or allow it to be used untrained, but that's another subject.) If guns did exist in Eberron, the only thing that would necessarily be magical about them is the gunpowder itself, which would be an alchemical mixture. The gun and the ammunition would be made of nonmagical metal and wood, and could easily be mass-produced by House Cannith for the war effort.
VVill 07-01-07, 11:28 AM	What happens if someone binds a fire elemental to some black powder? Then upsets it new home with a spark. I think it would be very upset if it was in a closed container with no way out. :D just a though, don't lynch me please
CannibalSmith 07-01-07, 12:34 PM	Bomards, bah! It's nothing compared to the fact that Akiak dwarves of Sarlona have real explosives. And that Riedrans have psionic electricity, which they use for illumination and radio broadcasting.
keropie 07-01-07, 02:00 PM	Yeah, I'm pretty sure that gunpowder would be a tough invention to find battle field use for when a simple produce flame or far hand used on a nearby torch would create havoc with the enemies supply of gunpowder... nothing like having your own weapon detonated on top of your head...
Edymnion 07-01-07, 02:56 PM	Maybe. Still this idea has been creeping into Eberron lately from various WotC directions. Here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebxe/20070625c) the RPGA has a poll up for Xen'drik Expeditions with a warforged listed named "Cannon" because "this female-personality warforged has been likened to a cannon." I don't like the direction at all.The RPGA destroys everything it touches. Honestly, if you're just now finding that they screw up everything they do, then you either haven't been a member for long, or you just haven't been paying attention. Honestly, if my only choices were the RPGA or give up D&D, I'd just plain stop playing D&D.
DBlizzard 07-01-07, 09:21 PM	The RPGA destroys everything it touches. Honestly, if you're just now finding that they screw up everything they do, then you either haven't been a member for long, or you just haven't been paying attention.Do you hate a lot of stuff? I've seen you complain about ENWorld & the RPGA just in the last few minutes (in the sense of "I won't touch anything dealing with them"). WotC is the company behind the RPGA. Any problems with the RPGA comes squarely on WotC's shoulders. They have oversight over the Eberron campaigns.
gensuke626 07-01-07, 09:40 PM	I think the problem is WOTC. I mean, they don't seem to understand Eberron as far as I can tell. They think it's just another setting, except with cool magi-tech. The best example of this is my friend, Nick, telling me about how he wanted to submit an adventure to WOTC (I think it was for Dungeon Magazine...I heard something about WOTC taking over control of that particular mag...anyhow). The module called for a party of lvl 10 PCs to foil an assassination attempt against, I think it was King Boranel. WOTC basically wrote back to him saying "Lvl 10 PCs shouldn't be involved with something that big. That is too world changing for a group of lvl 10 PCs to handle." Hey, if the apocolyptic figure, the Lord of Blades, is a ECL 14 with his 2 helpers, I think Lvl 10 is right about the time when the PCs become nearly legendary heroes.
DBlizzard 07-01-07, 10:29 PM	I think the problem is WOTC. I mean, they don't seem to understand Eberron as far as I can tell. Actually, I'd say it's an issue of "too many cooks." There are certainly several WotC designers who understand the setting (Keith, Nic, Ari, probably James Wyatt). Several who don't quite "get" the setting (as much as I love Wolfgang's stuff, he's as much as admitted (http://the-monkey-king.livejournal.com/198574.html) as much), and a few without a clue at all. Perhaps part of the problem is the lack of a good "setting bible." If the "setting bible" the designers are given doesn't cover the Eberron feel properly, then the products by designers not intimate with the setting will reflect that lack. The module called for a party of lvl 10 PCs to foil an assassination attempt against, I think it was King Boranel. WOTC basically wrote back to him saying "Lvl 10 PCs shouldn't be involved with something that big. That is too world changing for a group of lvl 10 PCs to handle." That probably wasn't WotC, that was Paizo. It's no secret that Erik & James Jacobs aren't big Eberron fans. They prefer the Greyhawk feel (and probably where their comments came from). Jason Buhlman, on the other hand is (and one of WotC's better Eberron writers, in my experience), but he's in charge of Dragon, not Dungeon.
DBlizzard 07-01-07, 10:35 PM	Several who don't quite "get" the setting (as much as I love Wolfgang's stuff, he's as much as admitted (http://the-monkey-king.livejournal.com/198574.html) as much)..... And for those who might dispute Wolfgang not getting Eberron, here are his quotes from that link. It's a project I enjoyed, but despite spending a fair amount of time sorting through the fine points and contradictions of the setting, Eberron hasn't quite won me over. Maybe it's just because I've been reading so much darker stuff lately (Poe, Stross, and Mieville), but Eberron's pretensions to noir aren't cutting it for me. Halflings on dinosaurs, magic trains, and the evil cardinals of the Silver Flame all add up to "slightly campy pulp" to me, not noir. That said, The Forge of War plays it straight: no jokes, no humor, downplay the goofy elements as much as possible. It's a military-focussed book, written to detail and incorporate the defining events of the setting. I'll be very curious to hear what people say about it. and Yeah, the setting lacks a core narrative, and I always get the feeling that the hard design choices were never made (hmmm: dinosaurs or steamtech — let's have both!). The kitchen sink approach has some appeal, of course, but the Realms already does that and does it well. Eberron seems muddled rather than open-ended. And that noir hype/marketing talk (since abandoned?) raised my hopes for the setting and then dashed them. I know the Eberron campaign that I would want to run. But the products to date don't support it. I like to think that Forge of War may steer things in a direction that more people like. Steamtech? I've been a patron of all of Wolfgang's Open Design Projects and they are great. However, it's clear that he doesn't quite understand Eberron. He has his own vision of what he wanted it to be, and some elements conflict with that vision.
Rechan 07-01-07, 11:58 PM	Do you hate a lot of stuff? Yes, yes he does.
Shady314 07-02-07, 04:27 AM	And for those who might dispute Wolfgang not getting Eberron, here are his quotes from that link. ... I've been a patron of all of Wolfgang's Open Design Projects and they are great. However, it's clear that he doesn't quite understand Eberron. He has his own vision of what he wanted it to be, and some elements conflict with that vision. Wow... Just wow. The part that gets me is the that more people will like. Wow just screw us stupid current fans that play for the "goofy campy fun." Let's get Eberron going in the right direction to really become popular. Oh please Wolfgang just swoop in and save the setting from itself before it's too late. :rolleyes: PS. Oh wow I kind of misread it. He actually said that more people like. As in currently. As in whatever he likes is obviously the right thing for everyone/thing to be. I'm going to have to control my rage before I do something stupid.
Syltorian 07-02-07, 07:47 AM	Wow... Just wow. The part that gets me is the that more people will like. Yes, that one got me too. Apparently, all the people here on the board and elsewhere who like the setting, and those who created it, are misguided. I admit that I find his turns of phrase a bit offensive. He is basically telling us that the setting has been completely mishandled by anyone but him, and that it is filled with jokes (implied when he reveals Forge of War doesn't contain anything of that kind, being the first serious book of the setting). I honestly can't think of any, unless you think dinosaur-riding halflings are humorous and plotting, intelligent gnomes a good joke. I'm also rather puzzled by the fact that he doesn't like "evil cardinals of the Silver Flame" (I may be misreading that), seeing as he ascribes things to the the Silver Flame which Torquemada himself might have regarded as over the top. I appreciate Poe. But, with a few exceptions, the Silver Flame doesn't go for the Pit and the Pendulum. As an exception that's great, but as a general rule he's just painting a caricature. As for 'contradictions of the setting': I'm not sure what he means by that. Is it the fact that there are dinosaur riding halflings as well as lightning rails at the same time? How are those mutually exclusive? Why should one be abandoned because of the other? Or is it contradictions created by authors not reading or understanding previous materials? These are, for all we complain about them, fortunately far and few between, and usually quite specific. Very few turn a major aspect of the game, say, the Silver Flame, into its opposite. Or does he mean apparent contradictions created by differing, in-game viewpoints (e.g. what caused the Mourning, which religion is correct, if any, etc)? Aren't those what makes the setting more realistic, different from those who have clear-cut good and evil areas? I'm probably overlooking something here... The bottom line for me is that, ironically - while every book has something or other that stands in great need of being ignored or changed by DMs - Forge of War wins the palm, thanks to its treatment of Thrane. With the exception perhaps of Races of Eberron, no other book got this much flak, spawned as fierce an opposition. I stand saddened by reading the admission of one of the designers that he doesn't get or even like the setting. I don't mind people who don't like Eberron. That's fair enough. But if someone who obviously doesn't like the setting tries to twist it radically until he does so, ignoring the previous material, that's when it becomes alarming.
Edymnion 07-02-07, 08:46 AM	Do you hate a lot of stuff? I've seen you complain about ENWorld & the RPGA just in the last few minutes (in the sense of "I won't touch anything dealing with them").Not more so than anybody else, I'd imagine, its just that I don't have problems calling a fish a fish. If something sucks, I'm not going to sugar coat it. The RPGA sucks. It handcuffs the DM and it screws everything up apparently just for the fun of doing so (Whisper Gnomes, IIRC, were an invention of the RPGA, subraces in Eberron). In my experience, RPGA players are like Mos Eisly cantina goers, the worst hive of scum and villiany in the universe. Powergamers and munchkins that know the DM can't stop them, and just go hog wild abusing the system. Which the RPGA tries to stop with more rules, which just makes the entire system worse for the few people that are just trying to have an honest fun game of D&D. And ENWorld is just too full of haters and trolls. Don't believe me, go make a thread over there about "WotC saved the entire pen and paper roleplaying genre from extinction" and see what kind of responce you get. Doesn't matter that its true, you do anything but outright flame WotC and everything it does, and they'll chew you to pieces for it.
The White Sorcerer 07-02-07, 10:23 AM	In my experience, RPGA players are like Mos Eisly cantina goers, the worst hive of scum and villiany in the universe. Powergamers and munchkins that know the DM can't stop them, and just go hog wild abusing the system. Thanks for the insult. :)
Captain_Kobold 07-02-07, 11:38 AM	Back to the OP: my complaint about FoW is not about Thrane, but about Bombards(pg. 16). Bombards were a primitive cannon. As in a big gun. With gunpowder. Anyone else notice this? Was there a picture or description of one of these 'bombards' in the book? If not, why is it assumed it must look like a historical bombard? While the root of the word 'bombardment' comes from bombard, in Eberron it could be the other way around. Thus a 'bombard' is used to deliver bombardments. It could simply be a big catapault.
Neutronium_Dragon 07-02-07, 12:50 PM	As I recall, that was the case with "bombards" when they were first mentioned in the FR too - great big things made by wizards which spat alchemical fireballs rather than resembling real-world cannons.
The White Sorcerer 07-02-07, 01:21 PM	my complaint about FoW is not about Thrane, but about Bombards(pg. 16). Bombards were a primitive cannon. As in a big gun. With gunpowder. Anyone else notice this? bombard, verb: attack (a place or person) continuously with bombs, shells, or other missiles Page 16 mentions bombardment, not bombards (noun).
Esgay 07-02-07, 01:59 PM	Everyone who claims that gunpowder is "un-ebberon" and clashes with the flavour seems to be missing the point of the whole "magic as technology" thing; the lightning rail is a magical train, everbright lanterns are magical streetlights, warforged are magical robots yadda yadda. Gunpowder in Ebeeron would be magical too, no technology involved. this wouldn't be a direct introduction of real-world gunpowder into eberron, instead of 74.64% saltpetre, 13.51% charcoal, and 11.85% sulfur (thanks wikipedia) you'd have 4 parts onatarian dense-stone to 2 parts fernia-touched iron filings. or something similar. If you don't want it in your eberron, fine, don't have it, or make the necessary reagents so prohibitively expensive that to make enough to fire a gun once would be worth a kings ransom. If you do involve it, it certainly creates another use for the poor forgotten craft(alchemy) skill. The point is, all you people who are saying, the bombard is too much like a cannon, gunpowder is too "real-life" seem to be fixated with your own personal view of the campaign setting. That is the partly point of eberron, the DM can play around with it, make it theirs but for those of you complaining that content in the new books "isn't right" or it "isn't eberron". It isn't YOUR eberron, fine, ignore it but you who complain about what Wolfgang is doing to the setting are really compaining about what he's doing to YOUR setting, if it's in a book, doesn't mean it has to be in your eberron, if you don't want what's in a book in your eberron, don't buy the book. Or buy it and tape over the sidebars, whatever. for all you people screaming "no cannon in the canon" I say let it all in, throw in as many ideas as possible because in the end, there's always going to be something that someone says "I don't think that's eberron" about. Give us more to pick and choose from.
Hellcow 07-02-07, 02:07 PM	Not the idea of gunpowder. It has, and (IMO) will never have, any place in Eberron. But I do like the idea of a large weapon, with an air elemental bound to it, that uses sudden intense bursts of wind to fling projectiles in a straight or lightly-arced trajectory that normal catapults cannot manage. Hell, I think I may just write one of those up, next chance I have to work on an Eberron book/article. "Elemental bombards." This is exactly what I've always seen. Gunpowder has never had a place in Eberron. It's just not part of the setting. However, siege staves (artillery-scale wands) have already been mentioned, and "elemental bombards" is exactly the sort of thing I had in mind when I mentioned ZIlargo providing "elemental-bound weapons to Breland" on page 212 of the ECS. They weren't handing them individual elemental-bound swords - they were selling artillery-scale weapons that drew on the power of elementals. Honestly, I think this is just a case of Wolfgang being slightly more familiar with Iron Kingdoms (where gunpowder is important) than Eberron. In my opinion, elemental-bound artillery exists, and if you just tack "elemental" in front of the "bombard", you're good to go. And if you have the chance to tackle this sometime, Ari, more power to you!
korcheck 07-02-07, 02:21 PM	Harry Turtledoves Into The Darkness shows an excellent portayal of the use of magic in placement of technology that would fit the coralation of Eberron's use of this same idea.
The White Sorcerer 07-02-07, 03:24 PM	In my opinion, elemental-bound artillery exists, and if you just tack "elemental" in front of the "bombard", you're good to go. Then again, there's no need to do that. Bombardment is possible with all sorts of stuff, like catapults and ballistae and spells.
Darakhoranon 07-02-07, 03:31 PM	Just to add my two gold pieces (as if I wasted time with coppers...): A bombard or cannon has a certain shape because this shape is NECESSARY or HELPFUL for its intended purpose. It doesnīt really matter if youīre using gunpowder (made in Iron Kingdoms) or a bound elemental (made by annoying gnomes), the weaponīs effect is the same: A projectile is propelled at the target - more or less accurately. I personally HATE hair-splitting with physics, but there just arenīt that many ways to build a functioning piece of artillery. As long as the "cannon" or "bombard" has an "elemental" tacked on, I donīt see a reason to start discussing its shape. After all, if I say "elemental cannon", practically everyone has at least a kind of idea what Iīm talking about...
korcheck 07-02-07, 03:39 PM	You must realize that just as in the real world the advancement of magical technology and the counter to the advancement is what made some items and magics useless. so by constantly developing new items you could hope to better defend or assault your enemy. A fireball is ok but only if you can get in range of your intended target and as long as it wasn't countered by the enemy. If however you have a mundane item or a spell that has not been encountered before there is a better than average chance of beating them. With the development of the elemental bombard the common soldier could bring his/her own heavy artillery to bare against the magics of the enemy.
The Dreaming Duck 07-02-07, 03:43 PM	Halflings on dinosaurs, magic trains, and the evil cardinals of the Silver Flame all add up to "slightly campy pulp" to me, not noir. Wow. So the Silver Flame section he wrote, portraying Krozen as a crazy diehard from day one and with Thrane as a nation of rabid fanatic mobs is somehow more sophisticated than the idea of a noble crusader overcome by his darker impulses or a group of soldiers forced into a tragic war with infected lycanthropes? And the guy who introduced #$@%#ing magic roller skates to a setting that didn't have clockwork is complaining about things being "campy"? This really blows my mind. Throwing the steamtech comment in as well just cements it, though again it shouldn't be a surprise coming from the clockwork author. He doesn't like Eberron because it's campy. Which it is. When he writes it. Sheesh. I've always heard that Wolfgang does good work and I like much of the tone of Forge of War, but it just doesn't seem like he gets it - or that he's trying to.
korcheck 07-02-07, 03:49 PM	Of course the next evolution in killikg and destruction will be the introduction of Gatling D'Canniths repeating wand. :D
Mouseferatu 07-02-07, 06:27 PM	And ENWorld is just too full of haters and trolls. Don't believe me, go make a thread over there about "WotC saved the entire pen and paper roleplaying genre from extinction" and see what kind of responce you get. Doesn't matter that its true, you do anything but outright flame WotC and everything it does, and they'll chew you to pieces for it. Interesting. I spend a lot of time on both boards, and in my experience, the WotC boards (specifically the general D&D boards, not the Eberron boards) have a far greater percentage of "haters and trolls" than ENWorld. But that's probably a debate for another thread, if it's worth having at all. ;)
The Dreaming Duck 07-02-07, 06:37 PM	... iin my experience, the WotC boards (specifically the general D&D boards, not the Eberron boards) have a far greater percentage of "haters and trolls" than ENWorld. Fair enough. I'll admit that my "%^$&ing magic roller skates" comment may have been unduly aggressive. Perhaps it's not my place to judge an author based on an article and a few paragraphs that clash with my vision of the setting. With that said, having someone say "Eberron is too silly and campy - what a dumb setting" and then writing an article about magic roller skates is frankly insulting to the setting. There's a great deal of serious aspects to the setting, and these roller skates are easily the silliest thing I've ever heard of. So hearing an author who has the opportunity to work on the setting denigrate it, talk about "What, you aren't having musicals in Darguun?" and then add (wait for it...) magic roller skates does make me angry. If he came up with an argument for WHY Eberron should have gunpowder - "It's illogical for a setting to reach this level of sophistication without having developed gunpowder" - that would be one thing. But he doesn't. As far as I can tell, he didn't even realize that it's not supposed to have gunpowder. He's dismissing it as "campy steampunk" without taking the time to see that it's neither campy or steampunk. I appreciate the work that you did on Forge of War, Mouseferatu. I'd love to see what you'd do with elemental artillery. I don't like being a hater. But it makes me angry to see an author for the setting misrepresenting the setting and then saying that his skewed version of the world is a crappy setting. #%$%ing magic roller skates.
Rechan 07-02-07, 06:40 PM	You must realize that just as in the real world the advancement of magical technology and the counter to the advancement is what made some items and magics useless. It's also important to acknowledge the arms race. War is always the time when technology and tactics advance, because there is necessity for it. The drive to have the winning edge, in addition to dealing with what you have on hand. Shrapnel developed because lots of junk was shoved in a cannon. Cone-shaped bullets developed to improve accuracy. Revolving rifles were made to allow faster firing. All of these were developed during the American Civil War to get a little edge in the fighting. And he that has the best weapon can often win - Armored french cavalry were tanks on the medieval battlefield, but when the Brits developed the longbow, the armored unit was toast at 400 feet. No more unstoppable tank. If the next war takes place in a rocky/mountainous area, there may be the need to be able to get troops up the side of a mountain fast. So the development of reverse-repelling ropes (enchanted ropes that let people repel upwards as though they were going downward) would be something NEW and needed, because the last war took place somewhere there were no mountains or huge obstructions. The same problem with offensive and defensive magics and magic technology. For instance, what happens when you need to destroy the enemy's fortifications, but the terrain is inhospitable for your siege engine of choice and they can knock an airship out of the sky? That would require a portable device that could knock out walls - and it needs to be low enough level that you can outfit several scouts or other sneaky types with the device so at least one of them will get inside and knock the walls down. The same could be said for spells. Area effect spells are great, but that endangers your own men. And targeting spells are also dangerous because in the middle of chaotic melee, it's hard to tell friend from foe to target. So, a way for spellcasters to establish 'homing' spells or ones that can differentiate friend from foe could develop - for instance, a spell that lets a mage set parameters as to WHO is not effected: 'All men in yellow uniforms are uneffected by the following damage'. Imagine that as a metamagic feat. Combine that with a 'touch range to close range' spell and you could have a way of buffing your troops from behind fortifications, mid-fight.
Rechan 07-02-07, 06:47 PM	Fair enough. I'll admit that my "%^$&ing magic roller skates" comment may have been unduly aggressive. Perhaps it's not my place to judge an author based on an article and a few paragraphs that clash with my vision of the setting. Just in case you missed it, Mouseferatu was quoting Edy, not you. :)
korcheck 07-02-07, 06:54 PM	It's also important to acknowledge the arms race. War is always the time when technology and tactics advance, because there is necessity for it. The drive to have the winning edge, in addition to dealing with what you have on hand. That is basically what my rambling was getting at. Also Ebberon may or may not use gunpowder but wars need something that even the common soldier can use. I can tell you from experience that when it comes to weapons in a fight the rule of K.I.S.S. applies. This is the reason why the russians and chinese went with the AK model rifles.
Rechan 07-02-07, 07:18 PM	Especially given how infrequently spellcasting classes are in Eberron. I mean, if only what - 10% - have PC classes? So you figure a lot of those are going to get waxed in the war. There goes your use of magical weapons because your spellcasters are getting wacked on the battlefield. If you want to have the average soldier (warrior) using magical weaponry, then you got to develop it for use by said soldier.
DBlizzard 07-02-07, 07:27 PM	There goes your use of magical weapons because your spellcasters are getting wacked on the battlefield. If you want to have the average soldier (warrior) using magical weaponry, then you got to develop it for use by said soldier. As a DM, I don't. If the "magicology" is so advanced that the average soldiers have magical weaponry than melee combats will be a thing of the past. No need to learn swordplay because you have these magic things that makes that obsolete (as they pretty much were during the WWI/WWII era that Eberron takes some of its flavor from). That's too far from D&D for me.
korcheck 07-02-07, 08:08 PM	To be honest I believe that the only thing to mitigate the arms race during the war was that the bulk of supplies and inventions came from one source, House Cannith. I believe that had the war continued the way it was going eventually the seperate nations would have started to develop on thier own to get a leg up on the other factions and a true arms race would have begun. this would have hurt the house a bit but the bulk of supplies would I think have come from them.
Mouseferatu 07-02-07, 08:15 PM	Just in case you missed it, Mouseferatu was quoting Edy, not you. :) Yep. No worries, Duck, I wasn't referring to you--or anyone in this thread, for that matter. :) I was simply talking about a general level of negativity that, IME, is more common on the WotC general boards than on ENWorld (or here in the Eberron sub-forums, for that matter, where we all seem to be mostly polite).
Rechan 07-02-07, 09:01 PM	As a DM, I don't. If the "magicology" is so advanced that the average soldiers have magical weaponry than melee combats will be a thing of the past. No need to learn swordplay because you have these magic things that makes that obsolete (as they pretty much were during the WWI/WWII era that Eberron takes some of its flavor from). That's too far from D&D for me. I don't see that happening. You could say that the state of 21st century warfare, one doesn't need soldiers or guns. And they are woefully wrong. By magical weaponry, I'm talking about grenades, or small-scale effects. Those alone can't take out soldiers, especially those who are spread out. I think clustering soldiers in a few areas are just begging for AoE effects.
Rechan 07-02-07, 09:03 PM	To be honest I believe that the only thing to mitigate the arms race during the war was that the bulk of supplies and inventions came from one source, House Cannith. I believe that had the war continued the way it was going eventually the seperate nations would have started to develop on thier own to get a leg up on the other factions and a true arms race would have begun. this would have hurt the house a bit but the bulk of supplies would I think have come from them. Given that Aundair is so big on Arcane magic, I don't understand HOW they didn't come up with innovations. Even if Cannith were supplying said things to Aundair, the Aundarians would have been tinkering with it on the field, and had Arcanix working on various projects. The Last War was a hundred years long. I just can't see "if it had went on as it was going, they would've done something"; you'd think they would have been doing it after year ten.
ArcTan 07-02-07, 09:46 PM	Ah, but couldn't one make the same argument about a lot of what's in Eberron? I'd be irked if someone insisted that Eberron had trains, or robots. It doesn't. The lightning rail isn't a train. The warforged aren't robots. But they're both, at least on very cursory examination, similar in concept. Dig beneath the surface, you realize there are vital differences, but on casual inspection, they look an awful lot alike. Not that different. For the Warforged, at least, it's only the difference between fantasy "magic" and science fiction "unobtainium". The "Warforged aren't robots" thing actually irks me a great deal, because Warforged *are* robots in basically every important respect. There's nothing about them that would be out of place in a science fiction setting, as long as you changed some of the magitechnobabble words (that don't even mean anything anyway).
ArcTan 07-02-07, 09:48 PM	Do you hate a lot of stuff? I've seen you complain about ENWorld & the RPGA just in the last few minutes (in the sense of "I won't touch anything dealing with them"). WotC is the company behind the RPGA. Any problems with the RPGA comes squarely on WotC's shoulders. They have oversight over the Eberron campaigns. If Edymnion had his way, based on the opinions he expresses in his reviews, the only published material for Eberron would consist of maybe 40-50 pages out of maybe 5-6 of the books who have been published, which means Eberron would've made no money and the setting would now be defunct.
ArcTan 07-02-07, 09:53 PM	Perhaps part of the problem is the lack of a good "setting bible." If the "setting bible" the designers are given doesn't cover the Eberron feel properly, then the products by designers not intimate with the setting will reflect that lack. But that's just it. Eberron was made on nothing but a single short setting bible. That's what the whole contest was about -- each entrant had to sell his setting as a setting bible, first starting with nothing but a 1-page synopsis, then slowly building up, but always with a single self-contained bible. I think there's more of a problem that Eberron grew organically, as Keith Baker's homebrew campaign setting, rather than as a focused design project (as far as I know the story) -- so no, there's no single-sentence descriptor of Eberron that works very well, unlike some other famous settings (Ravenloft: "It's this creepy Gothic horror place that's literally nightmares coming to life"; Dark Sun: "It's this post-apocalyptic desert world where magic destroys the environment"; Planescape: "It's this steampunk-ish mega-city in the center of the standard D&D Outer Planes where philosophers try to decide the nature of the multiverse"). It *is* a big world with a ton of sort-of-conflicting narratives bouncing around in it. In that it's like the Forgotten Realms, sure -- it's just that it's a new, fresh Forgotten Realms that isn't totally dependent on hackneyed cliches. It's a shame Wolfgang hasn't seemed to catch on to that vibe.
Rechan 07-02-07, 10:24 PM	The "Warforged aren't robots" thing actually irks me a great deal, because Warforged *are* robots in basically every important respect. There's nothing about them that would be out of place in a science fiction setting, as long as you changed some of the magitechnobabble words (that don't even mean anything anyway). Except for them having a soul.
ArcTan 07-02-07, 10:40 PM	Except for them having a soul. Souls in science fiction? I suppose you haven't seen any of those little-known, obscure works like Babylon 5 or Star Trek or Star Wars?
ArcTan 07-02-07, 10:40 PM	(Also, if you'll remember, the controversy about Warforged is that no one is sure that they *do* have a soul.)
Rechan 07-02-07, 11:00 PM	Souls in science fiction? I suppose you haven't seen any of those little-known, obscure works like Babylon 5 or Star Trek or Star Wars? Havn't seen it, havn't seen it, and where did the robots have souls in Star Wars? Unless you mean something like Vader, who isn't a robot so much as a human on cybernetic life support. (Also, if you'll remember, the controversy about Warforged is that no one is sure that they *do* have a soul.) If that were the case, then how come they can be raised?
DBlizzard 07-03-07, 01:46 AM	(Also, if you'll remember, the controversy about Warforged is that no one is sure that they *do* have a soul.) I thought it was pretty much proven they have a soul (although everyone doesn't necessarily have access to this information or believe it). The real issue is how they have a soul, and where they came from.
ArcTan 07-03-07, 02:19 AM	I thought it was pretty much proven they have a soul (although everyone doesn't necessarily have access to this information or believe it). The real issue is how they have a soul, and where they came from. As far as I know, the official flavor is still that no one has ever seen a Warforged Ghost -- or Warforged as any other form of Undead -- and that no one has ever seen a Warforged in Dolurrh, nor has any Warforged ever brought back memories of an afterlife. The fact that you can use raise dead and resurrection on a Warforged might be seen, by some, as *evidence* as they have a soul, but the counter-fact that there are (by canon fluff) no Undead Warforged or Warforged in the afterlife is therefore counter-evidence.
Rechan 07-03-07, 03:23 PM	What forms of undead actually ARE the soul and not the body infused with negative energy, and died under special circumstances. Also, does it say anywhere that warforged are immune to being Spawn of an undead creature? (I.e. reduced to 0 STR by a shadow, or level drained by a vampire's slams)? And lastly, what would a warforged soul LOOK like in Dolurrh? How can you TELL "Yeah, that guy's a warforged"? The soul could be featureless, or look wholey different.
ArcTan 07-03-07, 03:26 PM	What forms of undead actually ARE the soul and not the body infused with negative energy, and died under special circumstances. Er, Ghosts? Also, does it say anywhere that warforged are immune to being Spawn of an undead creature? (I.e. reduced to 0 STR by a shadow, or level drained by a vampire's slams)? Warforged can't be level-drained by a Vampire's slams. They're immune to energy drain. I don't know about the Shadows. I do know that the *fluff* is that there are no known kinds of Warforged Undead, whatever you may think about the RAW. And lastly, what would a warforged soul LOOK like in Dolurrh? How can you TELL "Yeah, that guy's a warforged"? The soul could be featureless, or look wholey different. Except that we do know that people in Dolurrh look like themselves -- this is the whole basis of the "Go into Dolurrh to rescue your friend" quest. Sure, Warforged souls *could* look different in Dolurrh. There are all kinds of theories you could use to explain this. Doesn't mean that the religious conservatives who think Warforged don't have souls can't use this as an argument.
Rechan 07-03-07, 03:48 PM	Er, Ghosts? Any more, though? And the question I have is, how much of the soul is a ghost? Is it a piece? The entirety? I don't know about the Shadows. I do know that the *fluff* is that there are no known kinds of Warforged Undead, whatever you may think about the RAW. The RAW says that while they are immune to ENERGY drain, they are not immune to ability drain - so a Shadow's attacks are legit. So there may be shadows spawned from warforged, but no one knows it because, well, how do you tell a Shadow from another Shadow? They're all identical. Except that we do know that people in Dolurrh look like themselves -- this is the whole basis of the "Go into Dolurrh to rescue your friend" quest. This goes back to "Where do Warforged Souls come from?" After all, those souls inside a warforged could be someone else's soul.
korcheck 07-03-07, 04:43 PM	UMM? Just where did we change the subject of gunpowder, bombards and Wolfgang bashing to warforged and souls? I got lost here somewhere.
korcheck 07-03-07, 04:45 PM	This goes back to "Where do Warforged Souls come from?" After all, those souls inside a warforged could be someone else's soul. I contend that they are actually the fractured souls of a once powerful race from beyond this world known as the autobots.:P
CannibalSmith 07-03-07, 10:20 PM	Whatever the answer, Merrix must know it. He made them living. His son made them fully sentient.
Cifer 07-04-07, 09:14 AM	Given that Aundair is so big on Arcane magic, I don't understand HOW they didn't come up with innovations. Even if Cannith were supplying said things to Aundair, the Aundarians would have been tinkering with it on the field, and had Arcanix working on various projects. The Last War was a hundred years long. I just can't see "if it had went on as it was going, they would've done something"; you'd think they would have been doing it after year ten. I'd expect that Aundair did come up with innovations. Certainly a good deal of the warmagic presented in Heroes of War or the Miniatures Handbook will have come from them, except for the fact it was later stolen by other nations and finally became open source because noone could control it anyway. Still, they've probably a trick or two up their sleeve, just as I expect Karrnath to have ventured massively into the contents of Libris Mortis (though they didn't get Awaken Undead - but that was found out in another thread...). However, I'd guess that a good deal of the not-too-secret spells were still turned over to the houses for "industrial production", possibly with the restriction not to sell them to the other houses, for the simple reason that the nations had a very finite amount of casters which has to be divided up into research, production (costs XP, a cost that may be able to be circumvented by some Eldritch Machines of the DM houses) and use of the spells. @ArcTan Would you mind using the arcane powers of Editing and Multiquoting more often?
Neofish 07-04-07, 04:25 PM	I'd expect that Aundair did come up with innovations. Certainly a good deal of the warmagic presented in Heroes of War or the Miniatures Handbook will have come from them, except for the fact it was later stolen by other nations and finally became open source because noone could control it anyway. Still, they've probably a trick or two up their sleeve, just as I expect Karrnath to have ventured massively into the contents of Libris Mortis (though they didn't get Awaken Undead - but that was found out in another thread...). However, I'd guess that a good deal of the not-too-secret spells were still turned over to the houses for "industrial production", possibly with the restriction not to sell them to the other houses, for the simple reason that the nations had a very finite amount of casters which has to be divided up into research, production (costs XP, a cost that may be able to be circumvented by some Eldritch Machines of the DM houses) and use of the spells. @ArcTan Would you mind using the arcane powers of Editing and Multiquoting more often? Also, you have to remember that war awas going on and supplying your troops, feeding them, paying them all adds up. So maybe when House Cannith approaches you and show interest in purchasing your super secret plans for those niffty arcane balista, a desperate ruler perhaps wouldn't be so foolish as to turn a blind ear.
Neofish 07-04-07, 04:27 PM	I contend that they are actually the fractured souls of a once powerful race from beyond this world known as the autobots.:P LoL... Perhaps there should be a Master of Disguise pestige class that grants them the shapeshifter subtype?
Hellcow 07-04-07, 10:49 PM	I'd expect that Aundair did come up with innovations. Certainly a good deal of the warmagic presented in Heroes of War or the Miniatures Handbook will have come from them... I'll take that a step further: any number of spells from the PHB may have come from them. There's no reason to assume that all the spells we as players take for granted existed a century ago. While we've never formally stated it, and probably won't ever do so, it's enitrely possible that, for example, the entire Bigby's Hand line of spells was developed by an Aundairian wizard twenty years into the war, and simply stolen and duplicated by wizards of other nations to the point where today any wizard has access to them. Magical espionage (theft of spell knowledge or items) is undoubtedly a HUGE aspect of intelligence work in Eberron, just as theft of scientific principles is in ours. "Queen Aurala - we have reports that Breland successfully tested an earthquake spell yesterday." "Damn! I want the Royal Eyes to double counterintelligence, and when they find the leak, I want his tongue!" War is a time of innovation, and we should certainly assume that there have been strides in war magic over the last century - but those innovations may be spells that you, as players, are long familiar with. Old to us - new to them. As for creation of magical items, the key to Cannith's success is its production facilities, many of which are made possible by the Mark of Making. Again, Eberron is based on the assumption that it's easier to make an item that plays off the power of a dragonmark than one that doesn't - which is why no one's built a communications network to rival Sivis. Cannith's mark is the Mark of Making, and creation forges aside, many of the other wondrous locations and eldritch machines they use to enhance production do require the Mark of Making. And again, since I've seen people make this mistake before - it's not that the need for the mark is programmed in as a security feature or anything like that; it's that a dragonmark focus item is actually drawing on and enhancing the power of the mark - that the user actually becomes a living component in the magical effect. So creating a speaking stone requiring the mark of scribing is much easier than creating one anyone can use - hence the edge of the houses. It's not that Aundair simply hasn't bothered to make its own production facilities; it's that Cannith is able to create production-enhancing tools that others can't duplicate (at least, to date). I'm traveling, so this will likely be my last post for a while - just my two crowns.
CannibalSmith 07-04-07, 11:28 PM	It's not that Aundair simply hasn't bothered to make its own production facilities; it's that Cannith is able to create production-enhancing tools that others can't duplicate (at least, to date). If I was Aundair, I'd get my own dragonmarked people.
The Dreaming Duck 07-05-07, 01:01 AM	If I was Aundair, I'd get my own dragonmarked people. Good luck with that. First, as long as the family sticks together, it has power and leverage. The members of the house know that. So, not vast incentive for them to break up the house and work for you, shattering their own powerbase for you. But let's assuming you're offering crazy amounts of money (though this now directly works against the idea that you're saving money by doing it). First, just because you now have someone who can operate dragonmarked focus devices doesn't mean you know anything about creating dragonmarked focus items. I may have some guy who can run a nuclear reactor, but can he tell me how to build one? So I'm either stealing the focus item from the house along with their employee, or devoting a lot of research to a path I can't use if I lose the dragonmarked people. But hey, let's assume I'm OK with that. I've built up my stable of traitorous dragonmarked heirs and I'm developing my own focus items. What makes you think the houses will allow it to happen? Just because you've found some dork with a mark willing to break his house's monopoly, do you think the viceroys will just throw up their hands and say "Oh well"? The entire purpose of the Twelve is to work together for the benefit of all houses... meaning that if the nations take actions that can be seen as directly threatening the houses, this is where they can marshall their resources to respond. Do you really want to challenge all thirteen? Even if they DON'T all get together, all it takes is for Cannith to hire enough Thuranni & Phiarlan assassins to take out your traitor squad. And looking at it ANOTHER way, do you really know what Cannith is capable of? Do you WANT to know? First, just because you grab a few heirs doesn't mean THEY'LL figure out how to make warforged - again, just because you have a guy who can shut down a reactor doesn't mean he'll invent a new one. So now Cannith invents warforged, and because you tried to screw with them, you're not getting any. Worse still, what will they come up next? Are you sure they WEREN'T behind the Mourning? Last time may have been an accident, but do you really want to **** them off and be the target next time? I'm sure the houses allow a few rogue heirs here and there, or that a few excoriates work with governments under the radar; it's been stated that the houses allow independent operators if they don't pose a threat to the greater profit of the house. But it's been clearly established that they are VERY protective of their monopolies, have been for centuries (meaning they've had a lot of time to develop ways to deal with traitors) and are actively interested in improving their power relative to the power of the monarchies. Most likely, they'd just assassinate your traitors instead of declaring all out war (uniting Deneith's human armies with Cannith's constructs, Tharashk's monsters, Lyrandar's naval and air support, Jorasco's healing, etc, etc). But do you really want to take that chance? Especially when you already have trouble with your political neighbors as is?
CannibalSmith 07-05-07, 01:17 AM	I was thinking more along the lines of Dominate Person and then stage their deaths. Yes, it is risky. All brilliant plans are risky.
The White Sorcerer 07-05-07, 01:54 AM	Yes, it is risky. All brilliant plans are risky. But is the risk worth the benefit? I'd say it isn't. If the Houses find out, you've pretty much lost the entire War.
Cifer 07-05-07, 10:07 AM	Staging deaths has the massive problem that I'd imagine the houses would want to investigate privately, beginning with a scrying spell from Medani if the bodies are not found. Remember: Orien brought the entire lightning rail system in Breland to a crashing halt because the Brelish detained a moderately important family member. An act such as the one you propose would almost certainly bring down the wrath of the Twelve if found out about - and four of the most capable intelligence services are DMed houses.
The White Sorcerer 07-05-07, 12:15 PM	and four of the most capable intelligence services are DMed houses. Which ones would those be? The Shadow Houses are a given, and I can accept Medani, but what about the fourth? House Tharashk? I have to say that the King's Citadel or even the Royal Eyes beat them in the intelligence game.
korcheck 07-05-07, 12:23 PM	Which ones would those be? The Shadow Houses are a given, and I can accept Medani, but what about the fourth? House Tharashk? I have to say that the King's Citadel or even the Royal Eyes beat them in the intelligence game. True but if you get a Tharashk on the right trail nothing on this world will stop the hounds from tree-ing the culprit.
The Dreaming Duck 07-05-07, 02:07 PM	Which ones would those be? The Shadow Houses are a given, and I can accept Medani, but what about the fourth? House Tharashk? I have to say that the King's Citadel or even the Royal Eyes beat them in the intelligence game. It's all how you define "intelligence". Remeber that most professional inquisitives work for House Tharashk. So they aren't specialists in literal intelligence or counterintelligence, but they ARE good at unravelling mysteries. And when it comes to "We think Merrix d'Cannith has been kidnapped", they are the House of Finding. The way I see it, Phiarlan are the best spies, Thuranni are the best assassins, Medani excels at counterintelligence with a side order of inquisitive work (like the Medani prophet), and Tharashk are general-purpose inquisitives specializing in locating criminals and missing people or things. Certainly the King's Citadel or Royal Eyes are better spies than House Tharashk, just like Phiarlan and Thuranni. But Tharashk does have trained detectives - and if the issue is exposing a faked death, both they and Medani would be the first people I'd expect you to turn to. It's Phiarlan who finds out that Aundair has constructed a secret research base for developing its own dragonmark focus items, and Thuranni who you send in either to extract the heirs ad kill their captors, or simply to kill the heirs. In my opinion, the rising power of the houses against the failing power of traditional monarchy is one of the themes of Eberron and one of the things that makes it different from other settings. Even a thousand years ago, Galifar imposed restrictions on the houses but didn't just subsume them. Today none of the Five Nations has the power Galifar once did, and the houses are (by and large) more powerful than they were and can choose to present a united front through the Twelve (as shown by the Blackwheel Company, which is in essence the private army of the Twelve)... and a number of houses are actively pushing the limits of the Korth Edicts. Combine that with the fact that all of the Five Nations are ALSO teetering on the edge of renewed war with each other, and it is a risky time to push the houses. We're already looking at a de facto Lyrandar state; one push in the wrong direction could lead to an entirely different sort of war on an unexpected battleground. Or simply support removed and given more freely to the enemies of the nation. Any which way, the houses are a force to be reckoned with.
Cifer 07-05-07, 05:04 PM	And when it comes to "We think Merrix d'Cannith has been kidnapped", they are the House of Finding. Of course, the answer they would like to give would be "Ok, we'll find his kidnapper and congratulate him", if the Twelve don't ask them as a collective... @White Sorcerer Yes, I was thinking of Tharashk. As others said, they do have a good deal of Inquisitives behind them. Their investigations won't be very unobtrusive, but they will yield results.
The Dreaming Duck 07-05-07, 05:27 PM	Of course, the answer they would like to give would be "Ok, we'll find his kidnapper and congratulate him", if the Twelve don't ask them as a collective... Perhaps. Tharashk envies Cannith's influence. On the one hand, letting Cannith suffer hurts the House of Making. But that alone doesn't help Tharashk, and it weakens the Twelve as a whole and hurts the illusion of Dragonmarked power. On the other hand, if Tharashk plays the decisive role in solving Cannith's problem - not even asking for payment, but acting "for the good of the Twelve" - it stands to increase its standing in the eyes of the other houses and ends up with Cannith owing a favor. If anything, you might see a house like Tharashk subtly helping set something like this in motion precisely so they can solve the problem. Essentially it's a question of whether they actually want to hurt Cannith or the influence of the houses as a whole - or if they simply want to increase their own standing relative to Cannith's, which can be better accomplished by solving problems instead of just allowing them to pass. Otherwise someone like Medani or Thuranni will come to the rescue, leaving Tharashk out of the picture. Of course, it's BETTER if the Twelve comes and asks Tharashk for help - but if the Triumvirate doesn't see that happening, it may be better for them to take the initiative than to allow someone else to solve the problem and get the credit.
Archangel62 07-07-07, 01:18 AM	I contend that they are actually the fractured souls of a once powerful race from beyond this world known as the autobots.:P That actually connects to a post I made a couple years back on my original theory for the warforged race. (It was disproven with the later stuff but I had more than a few people chuckling and wondering if I was right) But onto the main topic, I guess I have to ask the question a little differently, why is it that the concept of 'guns' seems to wrong for this setting in the context of gunpowder where if we said 'it's powered by bound elementals or it works off of an energy principle like a wand just with different rules' it would be FINE. I guess I just sort of find it funny, the weapons, creatures, and classes in the games are nothing more than mechanical templates if you look at them from the most base perspective, if we call the template a gun or a mage-arm what's the big issue, why is it bad if we call it a gun but fine if we call it a mage-arm or something similar. I guess I sort of picked this question up from all the Katana debates and the like, the complaints are less about the mechanics than about the name and the prejudiced it inspires in people. I guess that's all.
Mouseferatu 07-07-07, 02:58 AM	the complaints are less about the mechanics than about the name and the prejudiced it inspires in people. Because in cases like this, the names are exactly what matters. Cliche as it may be to say it, words and names have power. Whether it's accurate or not, whether it's reasonable or not, terms like "gun" and "cannon" and "locomotive" instantly bring to mind a specific image in most people. With those images come a mood and feel (vis-a-vis the setting), and certain assumptions, that simply aren't always appropriate, or don't hold true, for Eberron. (Or whatever other setting, for that matter.) Yes, you can then go on to explain "But these aren't the guns you're used to, because of X, Y, and Z," but by then, it's often too late. Even if the reader understands, that first impression may very well linger, and color all future view of the setting. By calling something new a different name from the word Go, you avoid preconceptions, and you introduce devices and plot points that enhance the mood of the setting, rather than counter it (even if only briefly).
korcheck 07-07-07, 04:15 PM	Mouseferatu, This was posted at the sight you mentioned on page two of this thread. Just curious what you think. CUATION: This is full of IF's. I have been an avid Eberron player and DM since it came out and I have to say that I haven't seen all the "jokes, humor, and goofy elements" that you speek of or the contradictions (perhaps you can ellaborate on what you mean by this) to be frank I think your comments are a slap in the face to those of us that have played the game. If you wish to know what we think of your opinion try going to the eberron section of the WoTC forums. If what you wanted out of the system isn't there don't try pushing your personal wants on the rest of us. As for there being a conflict in the game elements I believe this is because there are so many different writers putting in their own 2 cents without fully reading the books that came before the one they are writing. bottom line to all this rambling I guess is: if you don't like the setting you can always refuse to write for it. the_monkey_king wrote: Jul. 3rd, 2007 02:39 am (UTC) Re: So The 90% don't matter once again? Well, the contradictions are largely a matter of having a semi-industrial culture built on a feudal foundation (which I don't find credible), and the size of the continent, which doesn't seem to match the cultures described for it. The goofy elements I described in my original post; halflings and dinosaurs are one example, the lightning rail is another. It's no better or worse than Spelljammer; I like those elements, but I would not call them noir. I'm not interested in the WotC forums; don't have the time. If there's a particular post you thought was insightful, I'd love to hear it. I'm not sure what you mean by a "slap in the face". Eberron, like all settings, has its plusses and minuses. This post was praise and commentary on process. I'd still like to run the Blaze of Glory one-shot sometime. As for "pushing my personal wants on the rest of us."... Uh, where to begin...? I wrote to WotC's outline and request. As I said in my original post, James Wyatt has the ultimate say in what went into Forge of War. If you don't care for it, you seem to be saying that WotC isn't doing right by the setting. Which seems silly, since it's their setting.
The White Sorcerer 07-07-07, 04:34 PM	I like those elements, but I would not call them noir. Of course halflings on dinosaurs isn't noir, it's pulp!
The Dreaming Duck 07-07-07, 06:36 PM	Jul. 3rd, 2007 02:39 am (UTC) Re: So The 90% don't matter once again? Korcheck, can you provide a link to this thread? I'd like to respond to it directly, but I've search ENWorld back and forwards and can't find it.
Hellcow 07-07-07, 06:47 PM	Korcheck, can you provide a link to this thread? I'd like to respond to it directly, but I've search ENWorld back and forwards and can't find it. Same here. And TWS is exactly right. The Talenta halflings aren't noir (though they also aren't nearly ridiculous as the "halfling and dinoaur" crowd seems to think). It's not that everything in Eberron is pulp AND noir - it's that the world supports both styles of play. Xen'drik, fights atop the lightning rail, stopping the Emerald Claw from building the necronic resonator - those are pulp elements. Sharn, Zilargo, the cold war between the Five Nations and the ancient echoes of the war between the Lords of Dust and the Chamber, the patient manipulations of the Dreaming Dark - THIS is where you get the noir. Schemes of the dragonmarked houses - quests for wealth or political power that lead to murder or subversion. The bitter hatred of the warforged killer who still seeks vengeance on the creatures that murdered his family. The lingering despair of a society that fears the Mourning could return at any time... this is noir. And yet, there's lots of room for a balance between the two. The Lord of Blades can play the role of pulp villain, but he can also serve as a symbol of the discarded soldiers and their rootless existence. The Dreaming Dark are subtle foes, but you can still have an over the top psi-fu scene with a nightmare assassin. And so on. It's a terrible mistake to look for noir in every atom of Eberron. It's not SUPPOSED to be there. The DM who loves pulp action and hates the darkness of noir can find exactly what he wants in Eberron - provided he picks the right locations and villains to use in his game. The same is true of the DM who likes noir and hates the over-the-top pulp. It's a spectrum - not a single flavor.
Bluebrush 07-07-07, 08:33 PM	It's a Livejournal post. (http://the-monkey-king.livejournal.com/198574.html) It was hidden in one of the posts back on page two of this topic. It's a terrible mistake to look for noir in every atom of Eberron.That basically sums up my feelings.
DBlizzard 07-07-07, 08:37 PM	Korcheck, can you provide a link to this thread? I'd like to respond to it directly, but I've search ENWorld back and forwards and can't find it. He was quoting from Wolfgang's blog entry that I linked to earlier, here (http://the-monkey-king.livejournal.com/198574.html). Apparently he replied tehre, and Wolfgang posted that response. (Which, oddly enough, said it was silly to disagree with how WotC handles the setting since they own it).
korcheck 07-07-07, 10:41 PM	My issue with his answer to my post on his board was his first line. Well, the contradictions are largely a matter of having a semi-industrial culture built on a feudal foundation (which I don't find credible), and the size of the continent, which doesn't seem to match the cultures described for it. My reason for this disagreement is the blatant facts that abound of europe at the begining of the Industrial era. If we look back at this period in time what we see is is an slmost direct correlation to the world of Eberron as it stands today this standing is in part due to the war that left it on the verge of many things while at the same time stunting their progress I think. These correlations may not be absolute but they fit how we see the Important nations of europe and in a larger sense the world. What we saw at this time was something like this; Breland/England on the verge of a democratic monarchy, Germany/Russia/Karnnath an absolute monarchy struggling to find it's self in the face of new ideas, france/Aundair with its monarchy blithely ignorant to the woes of it's people and all of these try to take from the less developed nations of the world I.E. Africa/ the telenta plains, and the near east/ Valenar, south and central america/ the shadow marches and Q'barra. .... Or am I seeing a completely different picture than everyone else?
ArcTan 07-08-07, 01:07 AM	Trying to say that this or that fantasy element is or isn't "noir" is silly. It's all in how it's handled. Noir is a *tone*, and has no bearing on content -- unless by "noir" content you specifically mean the realistic prewar American cities that the groundbreaking noir authors tended to set stories in. It's especially odd that he says Mieville and other authors are "noir" in ways Eberron isn't. China Mieville's New Crobuzon stories, which I love, *have* things like a sword-and-sorcery world overlaid with stuff like flying machines and trains and unionized labor and thinly veiled metaphors for Hiroshima and such. Moreover, they have things that on the face of them are designed to look and feel almost laughably silly -- a prancing, capering giant spider that spouts poetry and collects pretty objects, a race of women with insects for heads, a race of giant cactus men who like to beat each other up, etc. Of course it doesn't *feel* silly at all when Mieville describes them, but that's the point. You judge on the tone of the particular story or game that's taking place, not on your reaction to the content. I mean, it's *fantasy*. To much of the non-fantasy-fan populace the whole idea of elves and orcs and waving your fingers to do magic is *already* silly.
Syltorian 07-08-07, 07:47 AM	What I'm sorry to hear is that he is not interested in, respectively doesn't have the time for the WotC boards. I have not got that many illusions about the importance of our little community, but I do feel that it would help him (or any other author) get some ideas and understand how other people look at the setting, as it would help us understand him. He may or may not agree with views expressed here, but it is always useful to see as many different opinions as possible before undertaking a project. I assume he does share with co-authors like Ari and James, but not checking the boards leaves him unfortunately unaware of things he may have overlooked (nobody is perfect, everyone can learn from other people's opinions), and he is also blissfully ignorant of how his work is received. Not that some comments about his articles would have made it easy for him to read on, I admit. In my opinion, he strips himself of a lot of insight and feedback by choosing not to read the boards, and he might even get less flak on the forums if he would explain his opinions, be they on noir aspects, the Silver Flame, or Cyran rollerskaters. Especially when much of his stuff is good. He did answer to Keith's comments in his lifejournal, and explained why he did what he did with Thrane... and it does go some way towards making that chapter more palatable. Maybe he could even have explained some of his Clockwork stuff, which I personally don't care about either way (I just ignore it), but which has received so much negative criticism here. I perfectly understand that he may not have much time. Not everyone can go as crazy posting entire novels on the boards as Keith Baker does. ;) So this is not so much an accusation as just saying that I think it's a pity. He would deserve more of an opportunity to explain his ideas, with the flak they are getting, and it would certainly be enriching to all parties involved.
sh0 07-08-07, 11:58 AM	.... Or am I seeing a completely different picture than everyone else? I think this is a fair and interesting comparison.
ArcTan 07-08-07, 12:19 PM	Okay, this is from Baur's LJ thread: The history as I saw it is a story of redemption for Thrane: dark deeds in the revolutionary era (think Iran's religious tumult, or the 30 Years War) followed by a reign of terror. Over time, the Cardinals were wise enough to moderate those impulses, but the theocracy was born in the full passion and fire that young religions are prone to. My impression is that some readers wanted a different theocratic revolution, though I'm not sure semi-feudal revolutions are ever that orderly. ...While I kind of respect this, I'm still not really buying it. Both Iran's religious tumult and the 30 Years War in real life were quite a bit less one-sidedly atrocious than the atrocities he pins on Thrane's transition to theocracy.
gensuke626 07-08-07, 05:46 PM	though I'm not sure semi-feudal revolutions are ever that orderly. He must have never heard of Peace-chan and what she did to /b/ on 4chan.
DBlizzard 07-08-07, 06:30 PM	What I'm sorry to hear is that he is not interested in, respectively doesn't have the time for the WotC boards. As a patron of his Open Design project, we have gotten a close look at how busy he has been (posts like "I have three outside deadlines this week, and have to get to these encounters, and get up the progress updates for you guys") and can vouch for how little time he must have. Take a look at Keith's posts. How often does he comment that one of the reasons he hasn't done more web articles is because of lack of time? How often has he pointed out that the discussions on the forums suck him in and eat up huge amounts of this time? Wolfgang is wise to avoid the forums and stick to projects that help him pay the bills.
ArcTan 07-08-07, 08:50 PM	On the other hand, I can say from my own experience that Keith's active forum participation -- and participation in the community in other ways -- may not directly pay the bills, but has secured him a very solid and loyal fanbase who do a ton of free word-of-mouth advertising of his work and represent a certain degree of guaranteed revenue and interest in anything with his byline. Everyone picks their priorities, but I wouldn't call Keith's participation here "wasted" for him, even only looking at the monetary bottom line.
Syltorian 07-09-07, 02:38 AM	As a patron of his Open Design project, we have gotten a close look at how busy he has been (posts like "I have three outside deadlines this week, and have to get to these encounters, and get up the progress updates for you guys") and can vouch for how little time he must have. I can understand that he doesn't have the time. As I said, I'm not accusing him of anything (that is, I'm aware he has valid reasons for not being active here on the forums). I am merely thinking it is a pity there is no exchange of ideas. It's simply too easy for him to misunderstand what other people see in the setting - see his comments in his LJ - and equally easy for us to misunderstand what he sees in it. Heck, if he came here, he'd also be able to read all the contributions Keith Baker makes and which dispel many of the confusions he sees in the setting! Also, given the reactions to some of his work, partly the Thrane parts in FoW, but mainly his Clockwork articles, I don't think he does himself a favour by staying away from it. When FoW was announced, there were people sceptical of the book just because his name was on it. Honestly, I'm not getting worked up about his Clockworks articles, but some of the posts here were outright hostile. As it is, he needs Ari to defend himself on FoW, and Keith to try and explain his changes to the setting, and he himself doesn't get any opportunity to do so. From what I am seeing, he is currently doing a good job of getting an image - the feeling I get from a number of posts here on the boards - of someone whose work is otherwise great, but who should leave his fingers of Eberron. And that's not good for business either. As ArcTan says, Keith Baker, who is also swamped with work, has made himself quite the following. Eberron is Keith's child, even if WotC has adopted it, so he may be caring for it much more than Wolfgang ever could, but I have the feeling that some of Wolfgang's work deserves more than what he is getting. I for one would like to give him a chance to explain his point of view, rather than be forced to simply ignore it. So yes, bottom line is that I understand why he doesn't read the forums... but it results in his being tried in absentia by the forum members, and he hasn't got much of a defence counsel here on the boards.
Lord Zeb 10-22-07, 03:32 PM	Gunpowder in Ebeeron would be magical too, no technology involved. this wouldn't be a direct introduction of real-world gunpowder into eberron, instead of 74.64% saltpetre, 13.51% charcoal, and 11.85% sulfur (thanks wikipedia) you'd have 4 parts onatarian dense-stone to 2 parts fernia-touched iron filings. or something similar. .... If you do involve it, it certainly creates another use for the poor forgotten craft(alchemy) skill. I think this is a great idea! 4 parts onatarian to 2 parts fernia touch iron fillings is classic. I think it's reallly important to look for flavor like that in your rebranding as you pull things into the game. Just because you can kill someone with a crossbow or wand of magic missile does not preculde a magi-tech society from looking into all the other possibilities. And if a GM doesn't want guns in the game, leave that part out. If I were GM'ing Eberron, musketeers would definitely be around. Less Medieval, more Renaissance in my preferred D&D...but that's just me.
Ogiwan 10-25-07, 09:42 AM	Concerning Noir: I would also say the tensions between nations, intense nationality (I point to The Killing Song, where Singe starts a massive street brawl in Deathsgate by yelling two sentances), and ant-warforged, -shifter, and -goblin racism. All of those are far darker than one would expect in a normal fantasy setting. Concerning military technology in Eberron: While the "rings of Fernia" idea is appealing, that approach is basically alchemy, which is more-or-less early chemistry. I'm not sure of the place of alchemy/chemistry in Eberron, but I suppose it is there, but not wholly dominant. Vaca de Infierno, feel free to comment. Regardless, Eberron's technological level has been established as the same as FR, or most other settings, as "Medieval with Magic". Thus, in order to get better stuff, magic is used. Given the magical advancement of Eberron, the ease of making cool stuff by giving it magic somewhere, and the like, I can see no better way to make long-ranged siege weapons than to make them cannon-like in form and to bind an elemental to them. Come think about it, those elemental bombards would be better than gunpowder bombards. The latter are uniformly heavy due to uniformly thick barrels, unreliable due to unstable powder, have a slow rate-of-fire (because they're so heavy and need to be pushed back into position), and cannot fire in rain. An elemental bombard, however, would be immensely lighter since the chamber doesn't need to contain the force of the explosion, making thinner (and lighter) walls. These thinner walls increase the rate of fire, as the cannon would be easier to push back (might not even need to be pushed back), and might even be the same cost to make; since a conventional bombard needed to be cast in one piece for the strength, and technology at the time precluded anything but uniform thickness, a gunpowder bombard might be the same price as an elemental bombard. Now, the real question is how much engineering is replaced by magic. For example, are flying buttresses engineering structures, harnessing the power of the Azure Sky, or both?
Yakman 10-25-07, 12:31 PM	My reason for this disagreement is the blatant facts that abound of europe at the begining of the Industrial era. If we look back at this period in time what we see is is an slmost direct correlation to the world of Eberron as it stands today this standing is in part due to the war that left it on the verge of many things while at the same time stunting their progress I think. These correlations may not be absolute but they fit how we see the Important nations of europe and in a larger sense the world. What we saw at this time was something like this; Breland/England on the verge of a democratic monarchy, Germany/Russia/Karnnath an absolute monarchy struggling to find it's self in the face of new ideas, france/Aundair with its monarchy blithely ignorant to the woes of it's people and all of these try to take from the less developed nations of the world I.E. Africa/ the telenta plains, and the near east/ Valenar, south and central america/ the shadow marches and Q'barra. .... Or am I seeing a completely different picture than everyone else? well, there's a couple of problems there. First, England WAS a democratic monarchy by the mid 19th century. Germany didn't re-unify until 1871, and didn't do any "soul-searching" until the 1920s (or more accurately until after 1945). France's "blithely ignorant" monarchy is a) a cliche, and b) over by the 1790s (or 1840s depending on the dynasty...). As such, there's no direct correlation to a particular period in european history. Are there comparisons to be made here? Certainly. But there are also striking differences, which, on the whole, make the 5N significantly different from the periods you are describing. Galifar's economy was/is a transnational one, run in a corporatist fashion in agreed spheres by the d'marked houses, the guilds, and the monarchies. this is dramatically different from europe of the industrial revolution which was run by small, exceedingly local firms and hamfisted protectionist policies. Breland is not England. It's not an island--it's intimately connected to the rest of the continent. It doesn't rely on having a rabidly xeno-phobic navy to protect itself--there's a huge, sparsely populated country out there beyond the Dagger, that just happened to be one of the major centers of the Dhakaani Empire, with enemies all around. This is a well-armed society that would put the bumbling militias around a minuscule core of soldiery so characteristic of historical British armies to shame. Karrnath isn't Germany/Russia. Yes, there are serfs who are beaten into the dirt. But there are also ancient citadels of mercantile life that are more refined and cultured than those anywhere else on the continent. Yes, there are nasty people around, but there's also that BoV, which doesn't have a worldly antecedent. And the great forces of conservatism--the monarchy and the church--which in tRW allied in Czarist Russia and Bismarck's Germany, are most decidedly at odds in Karrnath. Aundair isn't Bourbon France. Aurala isn't a villain, nor is she sequestered in some magical Versailles. But neither is she calling an Estates-General to fix the country. Aundair isn't the center of Galifaran civilization (which is currently somewhere between Dolurrh and ????) the way France was. She's worried about some druids across the river. France was concerned with solidifying its position as a world-conqueror, while Aundair can't even challenge Thrane.