Post/Author/DateTime	Post
doubtofbuddha 10-25-07, 09:52 PM	On the whole I found this book to be great. I enjoyed it quite a bit, and I appreciated the introduction of a Lhaazar Principalities plot into the Khorvaire section. (Though I am wrestling with how to introduce it while still making the PCs feel like the heroes of the story...) However, there were three things that bothered me. Only one of them is really all that major, and all of them can be edited out without too much of a problem. I was just hoping to hear the ideas of others who have read the book in how to integrate them with what we know about Eberron. 1) Io'lokar. I find the concept and idea of the city to be really, really cool. The fact that the vast majority of the population appears to be made up of high level characters appears a bit less cool. Particularly with places like the Sunward, The Height, and The Bastion having characters that are 16th level minimum it seems like this one location has more high level characters than the rest of the world combined. Does it really need to have 23rd level armorsmiths and weaponsmiths? Having a few more high level characters than average would seem reasonable, but this is a bit overboard. 2) Dragon's Deep. The only real problem I have with this location is the quori random encounters. While it would be nice to be able to use my tsucora quori miniatures, it seems to go against the entire concept of Dol Quor being a prison plane. I could see this being turned into a cool adventure plot, though. It could be a weak place in the wards that keep the Quori out and could end up becoming a focal point of a new invasion of Eberron. (Not that they really need to invade, considering the swank set-up they have in Riedra..) 3) Vyssilthar traveling with Lhazaar in half-elf form. Did the humans of that time period even know what elves were? Did elves have any sort of contact with Sarlona? Did half-elves even exist at the time of Lhaazar's voyage? These are mostly quibbles, but I am curious as to what everyone else thinks.
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 11:11 PM	3) Vyssilthar traveling with Lhazaar in half-elf form. Did the humans of that time period even know what elves were? Did elves have any sort of contact with Sarlona? Did half-elves even exist at the time of Lhaazar's voyage? We don't know what form of a Half-Elf he is. He could well be Half-Giant/Half-Elf.
Nived 10-26-07, 06:26 AM	1) Io'lokar. I find the concept and idea of the city to be really, really cool. The fact that the vast majority of the population appears to be made up of high level characters appears a bit less cool. Particularly with places like the Sunward, The Height, and The Bastion having characters that are 16th level minimum it seems like this one location has more high level characters than the rest of the world combined. Does it really need to have 23rd level armorsmiths and weaponsmiths? Having a few more high level characters than average would seem reasonable, but this is a bit overboard. I sympathize with that opinion. However take into consideration the pulp roots of Eberron. A lost city, bereft of contact with the outside world, that has magic, knowledge, craftsmen, etc that are incredibly more advanced than 'civilization' is pure pulp. Atlantis, Shangri la, Shambala, El Darado, Lemuria, Agartha, Avalon, etc its a common theme in mythology and heroes discoverying these places is a common theme of pulp novels. So I just place it in that pantheon of places.
doubtofbuddha 10-26-07, 07:00 AM	We don't know what form of a Half-Elf he is. He could well be Half-Giant/Half-Elf. Yes, but wouldn't that have stood out even more if she was on Sarlona traveling with Lhaazar to Khorvaire?
doubtofbuddha 10-26-07, 07:00 AM	I sympathize with that opinion. However take into consideration the pulp roots of Eberron. A lost city, bereft of contact with the outside world, that has magic, knowledge, craftsmen, etc that are incredibly more advanced than 'civilization' is pure pulp. Atlantis, Shangri la, Shambala, El Darado, Lemuria, Agartha, Avalon, etc its a common theme in mythology and heroes discoverying these places is a common theme of pulp novels. So I just place it in that pantheon of places. Hrm, I didn't think of it that way. That may make me reconsider the entire idea. Thanks Nived!
Amaril 10-26-07, 07:16 AM	1) Io'lokar. I find the concept and idea of the city to be really, really cool. The fact that the vast majority of the population appears to be made up of high level characters appears a bit less cool. Particularly with places like the Sunward, The Height, and The Bastion having characters that are 16th level minimum it seems like this one location has more high level characters than the rest of the world combined. Does it really need to have 23rd level armorsmiths and weaponsmiths? Having a few more high level characters than average would seem reasonable, but this is a bit overboard.Io'lokar is the one place in Eberron where high-level crafts and power sources are commonplace. It is the result of draconic influence on a civilization. Those powerful magic items that require high caster levels can be acquired here. High-level spells and powers are also available. The high levels of NPC classes such as experts and adepts is simply a reflection of that influence. It's also a great place to introduce dragon-touched races from Dragon Magic. ;) 2) Dragon's Deep. The only real problem I have with this location is the quori random encounters. While it would be nice to be able to use my tsucora quori miniatures, it seems to go against the entire concept of Dol Quor being a prison plane. I could see this being turned into a cool adventure plot, though. It could be a weak place in the wards that keep the Quori out and could end up becoming a focal point of a new invasion of Eberron. (Not that they really need to invade, considering the swank set-up they have in Riedra..)Dal quor isn't a prison plane. It's just remote. 3) Vyssilthar traveling with Lhazaar in half-elf form. Did the humans of that time period even know what elves were? Did elves have any sort of contact with Sarlona? Did half-elves even exist at the time of Lhaazar's voyage?Unless there's something that explicitly says they didn't exist, I don't see why not. It certainly isn't impossible, but it is uncommon for that time.
Isran_Imrador 10-26-07, 03:08 PM	Maybe some elfs from Xendrik escaped to sarlona not Aerenal. Creating another line of half-elfs...Still this wouldnt be common.... Isran
Charles Phipps 10-26-07, 05:37 PM	Yes, but wouldn't that have stood out even more if she was on Sarlona traveling with Lhaazar to Khorvaire? Not all Dragons hide in forms that easily blend in. Some hide by making themselves conspicuous.
Hellcow 10-27-07, 05:04 PM	I sympathize with that opinion. However take into consideration the pulp roots of Eberron. A lost city, bereft of contact with the outside world, that has magic, knowledge, craftsmen, etc that are incredibly more advanced than 'civilization' is pure pulp. Excellent overview, Nived. I myself was somewhat concerned with Io'lokar, simply because if misused it could result in a proliferation of high-level characters in a campaign. The important thing is that by its intent, no one in Khoravaire has ever heard of it. It is Atlantis or Shangri-la - a city of wonders, but one whose inhabitants want to traffic with the outside world, one hidden away in one of the most inaccessible places in the world. It's designed to be a place for epic-level characters to discover... a city where they can find wonders suited to their level that can't be obtained in Khorvaire. In this, it also is similar to Tanelorn - a city for heroes, not one that has traffic with the common world. The most important thing is to recognize that this is NOT intended to spread additional high-level NPCs across the world; it is a hidden place of wonders waiting to be found. Vyssilthar traveling with Lhazaar in half-elf form. Did the humans of that time period even know what elves were? This was Amber's work, so I can't speak to whether it was intentional. It's possible that she intended it to be unusual and stand out... but honestly, I expect it was an oversight. You're correct; we have not suggested any significant traffic between Sarlona and Aerenal in the past, and the Khoravar are the "children of Khorvaire". It's not unreasonable to think that an Aereni vessel could have made landfall in Sarlona sometime over the course of centuries of human history and produced a few half-elves. But if it troubles you, it could easily be that Vyssilthar took human form, or took human form but with some unusual fey features. No book is perfect; there are some inconsistencies that slip by editors and even writers. One example that comes to mind is the draconic attitude towards necromancy. Page 11 suggests that it's possible that a draconic disregard for necromancy is the basis of the Elf-Dragon wars, but doesn't establish this as absolute fact. Page 31 asserts that some Masters of the Hoard consider life and death to be a form of negotiation... and that in emulation of the Keeper, they traffic in souls and on rare occasions Masters of the Hoard have become dracoliches - with the approval of the Conclave, though this is a rare thing. But on page 56, the description of Arstyvrax says "The practice of necromancy is forbidden among the dragons of Argonnessen." This is obviously at odds with the statement that the Conclave occasionally lets Keepers of the Hoard become necromancers. You'll have to choose your own resolution; personally, I'd say that Arstyvrax and his cabal have many enemies among the lightbringers, and may have activities they seek to conceal from the Conclave. But I wouldn't translate this to a complete ban on necromancy; one of the points of the Vast is that it is a place where dragons may do as they wish. This could include the pursuit of necromancy... and it could also include lightbringers who despise the art fighting those who do so.
Shady314 10-27-07, 07:02 PM	My only problem with Io'Lokar was the idea those high level people were fond of exploring through the use of teleport and a DC40 diplomacy check could possibly convince one of them to bring you there. Uh..... NO. The idea of Io'lokar is nice but THAT part's got to go for me. And that they're so dumb a +5 vorpal dagger and a +1 dagger are all just "a magic dagger"....:rolleyes:
Yakman 10-27-07, 11:04 PM	No book is perfect; there are some inconsistencies that slip by editors and even writers. One example that comes to mind is the draconic attitude towards necromancy. My personal take on material that is inconsistent between books or how I see Eberron is that the material is Brelish propaganda. That being said, I found most of Dragons of Eberron to be straight from the lie-masters of Boranel and his spawn.
Charles Phipps 10-27-07, 11:42 PM	I liked its take on the subject.
Hellcow 10-28-07, 06:51 AM	After sleeping on things, I'm editing this for clarity. My only problem with Io'Lokar was the idea those high level people were fond of exploring through the use of teleport and a DC40 diplomacy check could possibly convince one of them to bring you there. Uh..... NO. The idea of Io'lokar is nice but THAT part's got to go for me. The last thing I'd want is to have Io'lokari wandering around Khorvaire acting as a shuttle service. In fact, I don't want them wandering around Khorvaire at all, with the possible exception of agents of the Chamber or a rogue Io'lokari the DM has decided to use as a villain. And in these cases, they'd hardly be wearing buttons saying "I'm from Io'lokar! Ask me how you can come visit!" IMO, the point of the Diplomacy DC is to say that it's not something they would ever do casually. But first you'd have to find an Io'lokari, learn about the city, and even then, I wouldn't let you use Diplomacy like mind control, any more than I would for any other situation. You're going to have a solid thesis for WHY he should take you, backed up by your roll. You can't just wave your hand and say "Take me to Io'lokar!" and have him drone "I will take you to Io'lokar." The point to me is that even if you DO have a good argument, even if he DOES like you, you will STILL need the Diplomacy to overcome his concerns. But again, in my opinion, it should be INCREDIBLY rare to encounter an Io'lokari in the world - considerably rarer than encountering a dragon. I'd put greatest weight on the "Io'lokari" section on page 42-43. Notably... Like their dragon patrons, the Io'lokari are an insular society - many live their lives without ever setting foot outside the city walls... A high-level Khorvairian might dream of wealth or power. A high-level Sarlonan might dream of ending injustice. Io'lokari dream of peace, friendship, and the pursuit of ever greater knowledge. Their city is the best place to do that. They have power, but they have no interest in using it in the outer world. Another thing to consider is that given that they live in one of the most secure cities in the world and put a great value on peace, many of their powerful sorcerers won't actually have the sort of spell selection an adventurer would take. An Io'lokari who never plans to leave his peaceful city simply won't ever have a use for fireball; he's going to get more use out of things like secret page, illusory script, arcane sight, and other spells that support his studies or civilian life. So bear in mind that the Io'lokar didn't stop the Last War. They didn't intervene in Thrane when the rajah was released from the Flame. They haven't interfered in Sarlona. Most never even leave Io'lokar. And they also have the ruins of Io'vokas across the way to serve as a reminder of the fate that awaits if they anger the true lords of the land. It is Shangri-La - the hidden land of wonders. It's a place that could become a home for heroes. And once discovered, you could explore plots involving rogue Io'lokari who do abuse their powers... or the horror of having the city fall under the influence of an unleashed rajah, the Dreaming Dark, or something else that could turn it into a threat that could challenge even epic-level characters. But you shouldn't be able to throw a rock in Sharn and hit an Io'lokari; it's unlikely anyone in Sharn has even heard the name or Io'lokar.
Charles Phipps 10-28-07, 01:37 PM	On my end, I was thinking of Iron Fist. A couple of young members of the immortal civilization go out into the physical world of Eberron and decide to go right all the wrongs.
Shady314 10-28-07, 07:24 PM	After sleeping on things, I'm editing this for clarity. The last thing I'd want is to have Io'lokari wandering around Khorvaire acting as a shuttle service. In fact, I don't want them wandering around Khorvaire at all, with the possible exception of agents of the Chamber or a rogue Io'lokari the DM has decided to use as a villain. And in these cases, they'd hardly be wearing buttons saying "I'm from Io'lokar! Ask me how you can come visit!" IMO, the point of the Diplomacy DC is to say that it's not something they would ever do casually. But first you'd have to find an Io'lokari, learn about the city, and even then, I wouldn't let you use Diplomacy like mind control, any more than I would for any other situation. You're going to have a solid thesis for WHY he should take you, backed up by your roll. You can't just wave your hand and say "Take me to Io'lokar!" and have him drone "I will take you to Io'lokar." The point to me is that even if you DO have a good argument, even if he DOES like you, you will STILL need the Diplomacy to overcome his concerns. But again, in my opinion, it should be INCREDIBLY rare to encounter an Io'lokari in the world - considerably rarer than encountering a dragon. I'd put greatest weight on the "Io'lokari" section on page 42-43. Notably... They have power, but they have no interest in using it in the outer world. Another thing to consider is that given that they live in one of the most secure cities in the world and put a great value on peace, many of their powerful sorcerers won't actually have the sort of spell selection an adventurer would take. An Io'lokari who never plans to leave his peaceful city simply won't ever have a use for fireball; he's going to get more use out of things like secret page, illusory script, arcane sight, and other spells that support his studies or civilian life. So bear in mind that the Io'lokar didn't stop the Last War. They didn't intervene in Thrane when the rajah was released from the Flame. They haven't interfered in Sarlona. Most never even leave Io'lokar. And they also have the ruins of Io'vokas across the way to serve as a reminder of the fate that awaits if they anger the true lords of the land. It is Shangri-La - the hidden land of wonders. It's a place that could become a home for heroes. And once discovered, you could explore plots involving rogue Io'lokari who do abuse their powers... or the horror of having the city fall under the influence of an unleashed rajah, the Dreaming Dark, or something else that could turn it into a threat that could challenge even epic-level characters. But you shouldn't be able to throw a rock in Sharn and hit an Io'lokari; it's unlikely anyone in Sharn has even heard the name or Io'lokar. I'm with you Hellcow. That's why I choose to ignore things like p. 48 with Izzardo the goblin wizard that greater teleports gems and jewelry back to his family in Khorvaire (Darguun). You bring up page 43 which is the page with the DC 40 diplomacy check that says just sentences before: "Such travelers (Io'lokari abroad) often teleport parties of strangers back with them"... I like it as a Shangri-la or Atlantis etc. which is why I'm definitely cutting these sort of connections. I'll come up with some reason to forbid travel like that. Why wouldn't an Io'lokari sorc know fireball though? Everyone is expected to fight to defend the city after all. And there's still plenty of wizards who can just learn both types of spells.
Charles Phipps 10-28-07, 07:29 PM	I like it as a Shangri-la or Atlantis etc. which is why I'm definitely cutting these sort of connections. I'll come up with some reason to forbid travel like that. I don't see a problem with this actually. It makes a nice little Pulp reaction here of our heroes visiting this tremendously ancient city that no one else in the world will believe exists.
Shady314 10-28-07, 07:32 PM	I don't see a problem with this actually. It makes a nice little Pulp reaction here of our heroes visiting this tremendously ancient city that no one else in the world will believe exists. I'm not forbidding the city itself. Or PCs from finding it. I'm forbidding the idea any citizen can freely travel the world and the PCs find a guy traveling from the city and getting him to greater teleport you back with him. Perhaps I'll have it be under a more urgent and constant threat and leaving the city is treason since you're needed to defend it. Or just warding it magically from any teleportation. Not sure yet. I think actually finding the city, instead of a tourist bringing you back with him, is much more fun and pulp.
Charles Phipps 10-28-07, 07:35 PM	I think actually finding the city, instead of a tourist bringing you back with him, is much more fun and pulp. I'm not sure, I could definitely see how it would work with the later. "The PCs after dueling Emerald Claw Nazis, fighting Cultists of the Dragon Below, and then dueling the 14th level Monk who guards the Sacred oracle on the Mountain then walk up to talk with him." "The Sacred Oracle explains that he is from a Great City of warriors much like them. They will not help the PCs but he may take them through a hidden portal on his mountaintop to learn the secret fighting techniques to save their kingdom." (insert Prestige Classes of choice) That way they can't just go visit the Mountain City anytime they want to.
Shady314 10-28-07, 07:39 PM	I'm not sure, I could definitely see how it would work with the later. "The PCs after dueling Emerald Claw Nazis, fighting Cultists of the Dragon Below, and then dueling the 14th level Monk who guards the Sacred oracle on the Mountain then walk up to talk with him." "The Sacred Oracle explains that he is from a Great City of warriors much like them. They will not help the PCs but he may take them through a hidden portal on his mountaintop to learn the secret fighting techniques to save their kingdom." (insert Prestige Classes of choice) That way they can't just go visit the Mountain City anytime they want to. I would consider that sort of situation to be them finding the city rather than a tourist finding THEM. I hope the difference is clearer now. Though I'd eliminate the hidden portal (or make it one time use) so they can't go back and forth.
Charles Phipps 10-28-07, 07:47 PM	I would consider that sort of situation to be them finding the city rather than a tourist finding THEM. I hope the difference is clearer now. Though I'd eliminate the hidden portal (or make it one time use) so they can't go back and forth. Well it just says theres people from the city exploring the outside world and that they can be convinced, through RIDICULOUSLY high appeals to their better nature, to take the players with them.
Shady314 10-28-07, 09:21 PM	Well it just says theres people from the city exploring the outside world and that they can be convinced, through RIDICULOUSLY high appeals to their better nature, to take the players with them. It in fact says these travelers OFTEN bring PARTIES of strangers back with them. That they also then let these people go means Io'lokari shouldn't/can't really be the enormous secret it should be/I want it to be. DC 40 diplomacy is not THAT hard to hit. It's not usually going to be lvl 1 commoners trying to make the diplo check it's going to be important people that interest them. PCs. Experts or Aristocrats. Arcane magic types. Especially since there should be conditional modifiers even for an Io'lokari. So I'm striking that. Getting to Io'lokar will never be a matter of finding a tourist and pulling a diplomacy check. I'm not sure what your argument is?
Charles Phipps 10-28-07, 10:07 PM	That it's going to be almost impossible for anyone to catch their interest to come back with them. And often is an extremely relative term. Like a few every century? And DC 40? I've never seen that hit by any of our player characters in Eberron in my entire career. It's obvious they're probably taking back great warriors to their realms to live out the rest of their days but there's probably very few that could possibly hit that in Eberron, let alone people they'd talk to.
Burch 10-28-07, 10:14 PM	DC 40 diplomacy is not THAT hard to hit. It's not usually going to be lvl 1 commoners trying to make the diplo check it's going to be important people that interest them. As a DM, I'm not sure I agree with this. A character really needs to be in double digit levels in order to have a shot at it, and even then they'd have to build around Diplomacy and roll high. Plus, consider that a 40 is supposed to represent an almost impossible task. Possibility being relative, I think it's designed to be one of things that is only going to happen if the DM wants it to. Heck, first they'd have to actually find a tourist, which mat be quite a feat in and of itself!
Charles Phipps 10-28-07, 10:25 PM	Yes, we're talking about "You can convince him to take you back if you're :censored: Princess Leia or Winston Churchhill" territory. 18 Charisma (+4), Diplomacy +10 and you roll a 19 and you're still not going to persuade him at all.
Smug 10-28-07, 10:55 PM	And DC 40? I've never seen that hit by any of our player characters in Eberron in my entire career. Then you haven't had people really dedicated to diplomacy. It's not common in a dungeon crawling campaign, but in urban/political campaigns you can do crazy things with "Face" characters. I've played social-focused characters in the past, and seen some characters even more extreme than I've done - and the Changeling rogue specialization and feats like Master Manipulator and Wanderer's Diplomacy (PHB II) do even more for this sort of character. Consider the following... Halfling 8th-level bard/1st level warlock. I could get a +2 racial bonus to Diplomacy by being kalashtar or half-elf, but I want halfling for the Ghallanda backstory. I could also get the same as a 5th bard/1st warlock/3rd black dog. 11 ranks in Diplomacy Charisma Bonus: +4 (15 Charisma at level 1, increased to 16 at level 4, wearing cloak of charisma +2). Beguiling Infuence: +6 bonus (warlock invocation) Synergy bonuses: +6 (+2 from Bluff, +2 from Knowledge: Nobility, +2 from Sense Motive) Feats: +7 (Least Dragonmark of Hospitality, Skill Focus and Negotiator; I'll take Master Manipulator, Wanderer's Diplomacy, or Grace of Ghallanda as the fourth.) That's a walking around bonus of +34 to Diplomacy. I'll hit DC 40 on a roll of 6. If I get at least 3 and it's important to me, I can use an action point; with two dice, odds are good I'll get a +3 bonus. This also assumes that I'm acting alone. Setting aside unskilled friends using Aid Another, if I have a friend who's an artificer and we have a little prep time before we make the request - we know you're an Io'lokari, and we're going to corner you in the tavern and ask - a 9th-level artificer can hit me with eagle's splendor (only a +1 bonus since it overlaps with my cloak) and more importantly a +6 bonus from a skill enhancement item. This gives me a base MODIFIER of +41... meaning I can't possibly miss that check. I could potentially hit a DC 60 check. And that's at level 9. Now you could argue that at 9th level, I'm pretty cool. Maybe the Io'lokari would think I'm worthy. But I picked 9th level as a random number. If I've got a 6th level artificer backing me up with infusions, I could still easily hit it at 6th level. Pull 3 ranks of Diplomacy, pull the cloak of charisma, reduce the bonus from skill enhancement to +5... and I've still got a base modifier of +37... meaning that, again, I'll get DC 40 on a roll of 3. A better argument is that it's silly to use Diplomacy as Jedi mind tricks... that regardless of what you can role, you can't hypnotize people into do your bidding. The DC 40 number simply indicates that it SHOULD be extremely hard to do. The problem is that when it's stated that a DC Diplomacy check is all that's required - as this shows, it's really not all that hard. Diplomacy in particular is easy to hit high numbers at low levels because of the potential +6 in Synergy bonuses. So I'm with Shady. I'd see the DC as an indication that it's something that they are very, very reluctant to do - and personally, I'd have left it there and not mentioned a specific DC.
Shady314 10-28-07, 10:58 PM	That it's going to be almost impossible for anyone to catch their interest to come back with them. And often is an extremely relative term. Like a few every century? Often IS relative but only an idiot would call a few every century "often." And no I am not saying your an idiot because I don't think that's what you were saying. And DC 40? I've never seen that hit by any of our player characters in Eberron in my entire career. No one's ever had a +20 on a skill and rolled a 20? Ever???? :confused: Especially with magic items granting a +5 - +15 bonus? Or stat bonuses? or conditional modifiers? I also believe there are classes/feats that could let you do things like take 10 on it. I've never found the DC 40 to be impossible. Especially at the level where one might consider dropping them in Io'lokar. Not something I'd do to low level PCs or NPCs. It's obvious they're probably taking back great warriors to their realms to live out the rest of their days but there's probably very few that could possibly hit that in Eberron, let alone people they'd talk to. Which makes it all even more ridiculous. The chapter implies these travelers explorations are in part about finding interesting people whose knowledge you'd like to bring to Io'lokar and share. But they ALL HAVE to have high diplomacy also? Doesn't make much sense. I could see the DC 40 diplomacy as a straight up I know you didn't come for me but let me convince you why you should. But not an additional I WANT to bring you to Io'lokar but how about you convince me. And if these travelers keep it so secret that no one knows about Io'lokar how can someone possibly plead to be brought there without the traveler telling them about the city in the first place?!
Shady314 10-28-07, 10:59 PM	As a DM, I'm not sure I agree with this. A character really needs to be in double digit levels in order to have a shot at it, and even then they'd have to build around Diplomacy and roll high. Plus, consider that a 40 is supposed to represent an almost impossible task. Possibility being relative, I think it's designed to be one of things that is only going to happen if the DM wants it to. Heck, first they'd have to actually find a tourist, which mat be quite a feat in and of itself! MAGIC ITEMS.
Shady314 10-28-07, 11:03 PM	Yes, we're talking about "You can convince him to take you back if you're :censored: Princess Leia or Winston Churchhill" territory. 18 Charisma (+4), Diplomacy +10 and you roll a 19 and you're still not going to persuade him at all. That's a godawful diplomacy skill for someone like Leia or Churchill. This is DnD! Amulet of Diplomacy. +1 to diplomacy skill checks? Great they made it now! More realistically how about a +10 to diplomacy from that. Plus a cloak of CHA +2. Let's say a level 8 aristocrat. Diplomacy would be common for such a person. Let's just say 16 cha. Max ranks in diplomacy. Now add in synergy bonuses they're sure to have for things like Knowledge: nobility/royalty. Add in conditional modifiers like the fact they apparently WANT to find people like you to share your experiences and knowledge in Io'lokar. And it takes far less than a roll of 19 to do it.
Shady314 10-28-07, 11:05 PM	So I'm with Shady. I'd see the DC as an indication that it's something that they are very, very reluctant to do - and personally, I'd have left it there and not mentioned a specific DC. Absolutely. Either they should want to take you because they feel your worthy. Or they shouldn't.
Smug 10-28-07, 11:12 PM	That's why I choose to ignore things like p. 48 with Izzardo the goblin wizard that greater teleports gems and jewelry back to his family in Khorvaire (Darguun). Yeah, the tourists bug me. On page 42-43 it says that most never set foot outside the city; that the goblins and dwarves in the Freeward are "culturally unrecognizeable to their distant kin in Darguun or the Ironroot Mountains"; that want they want most can be done most easily in the city; and that they often can't even offer sanctuary to escaped slaves because of the population limits on the city. All of this seems to be at odds with the idea of Io'lokari tourists bopping around and teleporting people back with them all the time. Likewise, to me if that's common, it kills the mystery. It's Shangri-La, the Savage Land, the Lost World - and as others have said, the act of discovering it is one of those things that makes the PCs cool. The PCs BEING discovered makes the tourist cooler than the PC, and I always want the PCs to be the center. I don't actually see Izzardo as a problem; he's specifically called out as being a recent immigrant, and thus culturally more like his cousins in Khorvaire. The main question I'd have is whether he was that powerful beforehand... or if he simply had remarkable promise and that has grown dramatically over the last few years. If he was that powerful to begin with, then %^$#, that's a hell of a goblin. However, what I will specifically note with Izzardo is that his description says that his behavior is at odds with the Io'lokari philosophy - implying that he is an unusual individual who basically hasn't fully let go of his old ways. He's not really an Io'lokari; he's someone like the PCs themselves, a powerful Khorvairian who might end up finding a home in Io'lokar. I don't begrudge you your plan to use the tourists, Charles, but I'll certainly keep it as a hidden place that must be discovered, and ignore the idea of tourists bouncing around who "often teleport parties of strangers back with them".
Burch 10-28-07, 11:13 PM	MAGIC ITEMS. That's a bit flippant and also hardly a worthwhile line of argument. Which ones? A circlet of persuasion? Similarly, I am impressed by Smug's ability to hit a +34 modifier by level 9, but none of the arguments posited actually helps find a "tourist". Additionally, as a DM, I would object a character expressing any knowledge about the city in question unless they had learned about it in-game, effectively removing it from play until I see fit for their characters to learn of it. The only other source of contact I can see is if a named NPC "tourist" in the book itself regularly avails himself of the opportunity to reveal his nature to total strangers and ask them if they'd like to go on a trip. While I have not actually read the lines in question, it seems like this is not a likely scenario.
Charles Phipps 10-28-07, 11:32 PM	Amulet of Diplomacy. +1 to diplomacy skill checks? Great they made it now! More realistically how about a +10 to diplomacy from that. Plus a cloak of CHA +2. Let's say a level 8 aristocrat. Magic items that improve charisma? Yeah, like the 1 or 2 guys ON THE PLANET that might possess something like that. Maybe the King of Breland or Queen of Aundair, possibly. But yes, if I did use the "Tourists", I'd have them be a great deal like spies. They're looking for two things... 1. Dangers from the Outside World. 2. Signs of Cultural advancement. And RARELY, a 3rd thing 3. Some poor unfortunate or exceptional individual they can bring back to live amongst them. An orphan child or Indiana Jones.
Burch 10-29-07, 12:01 AM	But yes, if I did use the "Tourists", I'd have them be a great deal like spies. They're looking for two things... BTW, I'm not using the term "Tourists" pejoratively; it's from a Comic called Fables and refers to group of fairy tale creatures (mowgli is a member, for example) who are tasked with trotting the globe, tracking down rogues, checking in on fables who live far away, etc.
Shady314 10-29-07, 01:31 AM	Magic items that improve charisma? Yeah, like the 1 or 2 guys ON THE PLANET that might possess something like that. Maybe the King of Breland or Queen of Aundair, possibly. Oh please. Such items would be completely common among the wealthy and elite. And really 1 or 2 on the WHOLE PLANET???? So you're including absolutely everyone on the whole planet and think only 1 or 2 could get their hands on a cloak of charisma +2? At the very least a potion of eagle's splendor or similar before an important talk or meeting. When did Khorvaire's wealthy suddenly lack for magic items? You also completely ignore the ones that boost skill in your response here. But yes, if I did use the "Tourists", I'd have them be a great deal like spies. They're looking for two things... 1. Dangers from the Outside World. 2. Signs of Cultural advancement. And RARELY, a 3rd thing 3. Some poor unfortunate or exceptional individual they can bring back to live amongst them. An orphan child or Indiana Jones. That's all I'm saying. Anyone leaving the city I'm going to have be a VERY rare and important event. I'm also not using the word tourist derisively. That's exactly what they are according to the chapter. It makes no mention of an overarching agenda. Merely that these people explore the world looking for things to bring back to enrich themselves and their city. They go to see what Sharn is like and meet new people. Sounds like tourism.
Shady314 10-29-07, 01:40 AM	That's a bit flippant and also hardly a worthwhile line of argument. Which ones? A circlet of persuasion? I didn't mean to be flippant. I elaborated in the other posts. I didn't want to repeat myself but you and Charles seem to completely gloss over the magical ways many characters especially PCs will buff themselves before an important talk. The idea an 8 level aristocrat that has garnered the attention of an Io'lokari would have something as pitiful as 10 ranks in diplomacy and nothing else but their charisma modifier is craziness. Similarly, I am impressed by Smug's ability to hit a +34 modifier by level 9, but none of the arguments posited actually helps find a "tourist". Additionally, as a DM, I would object a character expressing any knowledge about the city in question unless they had learned about it in-game, effectively removing it from play until I see fit for their characters to learn of it. The problem is not that finding a tourist is hard. It's that really they are supposed to find YOU. They go out looking for people and things to bring back to their city to enrich it. That's boring to me is all. And what started this whole thing was just me saying personally I'm never going to use that. Io'lokari will mostly stick to inside their walls for me. Also being level 9 and having a legendary diplomacy ability will actually help a lot! You're exactly what they are looking for. :) The only other source of contact I can see is if a named NPC "tourist" in the book itself regularly avails himself of the opportunity to reveal his nature to total strangers and ask them if they'd like to go on a trip. While I have not actually read the lines in question, it seems like this is not a likely scenario. More likely than you think according to the chapter. I mean I personally would think something like that would be once in a lifetime. Maybe less. And no it's not to total strangers they know nothing about. But they DO find people that they feel are worthy and bring them to the city to share things and then bring them back. I'm surprised people are not understanding why I might have a problem with that idea. Not to be harsh but don't you think you should read what we're talking about before jumping into the discussion?
Charles Phipps 10-29-07, 01:48 AM	Oh please. Such items would be completely common among the wealthy and elite. And really 1 or 2 on the WHOLE PLANET???? So you're including absolutely everyone on the whole planet and think only 1 or 2 could get their hands on a cloak of charisma +2? At the very least a potion of eagle's splendor or similar before an important talk or meeting. When did Khorvaire's wealthy suddenly lack for magic items? You also completely ignore the ones that boost skill in your response here. Magical Items in Eberron are not uncommon but objects that boost one's natural charisma and likeness, yes, tremendously so. And I think that they finding you opens a lot of adventure hooks too. That depends if finding the city and yourself in it is the START of the hook.
Shady314 10-29-07, 02:08 AM	Magical Items in Eberron are not uncommon but objects that boost one's natural charisma and likeness, yes, tremendously so. I have no idea why you think such a +2 item would be SO uncommon only 1 or 2 people on the whole planet could have one. Especially since the whole planet includes Io'lokar. :confused: A cloak of charisma +2 is not an artifact. And I think that they finding you opens a lot of adventure hooks too. That depends if finding the city and yourself in it is the START of the hook. Did I say being brought to the city could never work as an interesting hook? I said I have a problem with this being something COMMON. That people from the city of Io'lokari commonly and easily leave it (because many either have the teleport spell or can get a magic item with it.) ruins EVERY bit of mystery and secrecy to me. And what you're describing sounds more like abduction. Add in that for some reason they aren't allowed to just leave and that sounds awesome!
Burch 10-29-07, 03:27 AM	Not to be harsh but don't you think you should read what we're talking about before jumping into the discussion? I'm beginning to think that as well. While I have read about the city, I seem to have missed the points you object to. Other than that, I agree with your assessment of the situation. I am also sympathetic to your complaints and admire your candor. On an older account I was pretty vehement when arguing over the many travesties committed against the setting in Five Nations.
Charles Phipps 10-29-07, 04:14 AM	There were problems with 5 Nations? I thought that was THE Supplement of Eberron?
Smug 10-29-07, 04:18 AM	Magical Items in Eberron are not uncommon but objects that boost one's natural charisma and likeness, yes, tremendously so. If by this you mean "items that provide an enhancement bonus to the Charisma score" - why do you think this? As far as I'm concerned, it would be one of the more COMMON sort of magic items. If you're a powerful courtier or a renowned barrister, a cloak of resistance won't help you much... but a cloak of charisma is going to be directly relevant to your daily work. For an artificer or sorcerer (hardly common people, but people more likely to have access to wealth), it's extremely valuable as it enhances their magic. It fits right in with that idea of magic being used to enhance people's daily lives, and the prerequisites for creating it - a second level spell - simply aren't that high. Just skimming through a few of the sourcebooks, what I find is that many combat oriented NPCs use their cloak slot for a cloak of protection, but there's a number of cloaks of charisma out there - Captain Otherro in Five Nations, Lan Hazal and Menya d'Cannith in Sharn: City of Towers, and a few of the statted heirs in Dragonmarked. Tyasha d'Phiarlan, Lord Mayor Cathan ir'Demell, and Kessler don't get full stat blocks in Sharn, but I'd be amazed if they didn't possess Charisma-boosting items. At 4000 gp, stat-boosting items are out of the reach of the commoner, but certainly within the range of wealthy aristocrats (by comparison, an upscale house in Sharn can run 40,000 gp). Beyond this, there's another one I missed in my calculations: Glamerweave. A glamerweave outfit gives you a +1 bonus to Diplomacy, and there's nothing rare about glamerweave. So you can certainly take my initial calculations, replace the cloak of charisma with a glamerweave cloak, and get the same score (and save almost 4000 gp!)... and, since the glamerweave bonus stacks with eagle's splendor, if you've got the friendly artificer you actually end up with a possible modifer of +42. And this is working from my limited knowledge; there may very well be additional feats, items, or PrCs that would take it higher. Now: I agree that this doesn't change the fact that you have to find an Io'lokari to make this check, and that they presumably won't advertise their presence. That's up the the DM. The issue is that once they HAVE been identified, the sourcebook says "You can convince them to take you with you with a DC 40 check"... and even suggests that they do this on a somewhat regular basis. If I've got Slick Willy in my group with the +42 Diplomacy check, if he does figure out someone is from Io'lokar, he's going to complain if I don't let him make the check. I can simply overrule it, but it's a case where I think it would have been better not to give a number at all. If they'd simply said that they will very rarely take people with them, if they are impressed by the person or feel it serves the needs of the city, it's up to the DM to decide if a Diplomacy check is needed, if it's possible, and if so, what the DC is. As is, if Slick Willy makes his Diplomacy check of 55, he's going to complain if this doesn't act as a trump card. My problem to control my group - but just a case of putting in a rule where I don't see the rule being necessary or helpful. Also: the example I gave above was presumably a PC. I don't expect many NPCs to be making those kind of rolls, and they wouldn't have access to beguiling influence. But setting that aside, even without the addition of magic, the synergies and racial bonuses can get Diplomacy up to crazy levels. In Sharn, Sorik Sensos is described as a brilliant orator, so we can assume that he's directed his skills and feats along this path; from his description, he seems more likely to have Negotiator than Cleave. He's had an opportunity for 2 stat bumps and is described as being old, so even if he doesn't have a cloak of charisma, he could still have an 18 Charisma. Which means he could have a modifier of +32 (14 skill ranks, +4 Charisma, +1 glamerweave, +2 racial, +6 synergy, +2 Negotiator, +3 Skill Focus)... and that's leaving him with two feat slots open, which I'd probably use for Master Manipulator and Persuasive. And that's assuming that he doesn't have any magic items that enhance Charisma or Diplomacy. Now, Sorik IS supposed to be a "brilliant orator", and he may well be a Winston Churchill. But he's also an 11th-level NPC classed character, and I haven't given him magic items, action points, or benefit of spells cast on him, all of which a PC would have. Diplomacy is just a nutty skill, and I imagine it's one of the things we'll see revised in 4th Edition. Sorry to go on at such great length... having played diplomats before, I just know how silly it can get. And I think that they finding you opens a lot of adventure hooks too. That depends if finding the city and yourself in it is the START of the hook. Sure. I have no problem with an Io'lokari specifically seeking you out. It's Mortal Kombat: "You have been recognized as one of the champions of this age. You must come with me." I don't like it as much as the journey of discovery, but there's obvious potential. What I don't like is the idea that there's essentially casual, random traffic - specifically, the phrase that they "often transport groups of strangers". This seems to me to be at odds with the previous statements about the city and the role I'd want it to play. Nothing about it should be casual: if you are chosen to be taken there, that should be a remarkable event that occurs because you are a remarkable person, not something that's going on all the time.
Smug 10-29-07, 04:39 AM	But yes, if I did use the "Tourists", I'd have them be a great deal like spies. They're looking for two things... 1. Dangers from the Outside World. I understand your second and third points on the list. But number one here is the one that really bothers me. This just seems to place them in the role of a nation... when at the end of the day, they are a single city. They are already hidden at the center of the most isolated continent in Eberron. They are protected by all the security measures that the dragons have set in place, and anyone who wants to get to them is going to have to go through the dragons. If anything, by acting out in the world they are placing their city at risk. As is, no one knows it exists; but if a spy is somehow caught, he could be forced to reveal the existence of his wondrous home. Beyond this, what would they consider a threat? The Dreaming Dark? A rakshasa rajah being unleashed from bondage? As Hellcow pointed out, they haven't interfered with these things in the past. And if something threatens Argonnessen, then it is the role of the Conclave to deal with it, and I don't think they'd want the Io'lokari acting on their own; the last time humanoid of Argonnessen went too far Io'vakas was destroyed. Page 43 mentions that Io'lokari may find a place as agents of the Chamber, and that I could see - the two working together in the interests of Prophecy and Argonnessen, but with dragons at the top of the pyramid. Obviously the book is a resource, and you can and should do whatever you want to do with it. If you want to have high-level Io'lokari monitoring all the other powerful forces of Eberron, you certainly could. But I think the Chamber serves that purpose just fine, and I'd rather have Io'lokari in the Chamber than have a second group of super-powerful guardians trying to protect the world from danger. I'm fine with the idea of PCs being transported to Io'lokar to fight in the Millenium Tournament, where they face off against 18th level swordsages. And I'm fine with those 18th level swordsages working with the Light of Siberys to guard the Pit of Five Sorrows. But personally, I don't want those swordsages popping up in Sharn all the time to fight the latest scheme of the Emerald Claw. To me, the fact that they do remain aloof is part of their draconic character - they are essentially humanoids who live there lives as the dragons do, possessing great power but remaining distant and disinterested in the lives of lesser beings. Fortunately, the book doesn't say I have to do any of these things, or that you can't do any of these things. The only issue is that "Getting There" paragraph.
Smug 10-29-07, 04:52 AM	I know I'm just running at the keyboard here, but one last thing struck me. Now I'll try to shut up. Reading the section one more time, I think this may be a case where the writer's intent is being misinterpreted. The section that bothers me is "Getting There" on page 43. This says: Once characters have been to Io'lokar, greater teleportation becomes the easiest way too and from the city. This method is typically used by Io'lokari abroad, and such travelers often teleport parties of strangers back with them. I think the first sentence is the key... once characters have been to Io'lokar. I think the term "strangers" isn't supposed to mean utterly random people they meet in the bar. I think the intention is that if you have been to Io'lokar before, if you know enough about it to recognize an Io'lokari and prove that you are welcome in the city, you may be able to convince him to take you back on his return trip. You are a stranger to HIM, but you aren't a stranger to Io'lokar. With this interpretation, I have no problem with the section whatsoever. Io'lokari don't travel abroad often, but some do. They don't advertise their presence. But if you can find them, and if you've been to the city before, there's a good chance you can hitch a ride back. Calling this something that they "often" do makes sense, because it's not a situation that would occur frequently... but when it DOES occur, they're likely to do it. As long as you're in good standing with the city, why not? Sure, you still need to make a big check, but as I've shown, that DC 40 is trivial if you've got an Io'lokar-worthy diplomat on your side. And I do agree with Charles' point three that they OCCASIONALLY recruit remarkable people - people like Izzardo. But I don't think that's what the writer meant when he said that they "Often teleport parties of strangers back with them" - I think that was specifically addressing return trips for PCs who have been there before. After all, it's in the "Getting There" section, not the "Io'lokari Recruitment Policies" section.
Burch 10-29-07, 07:20 AM	There were problems with 5 Nations? I thought that was THE Supplement of Eberron? Not the time or place. If you really want to talk about it, make another thread.
Arz 10-29-07, 10:04 AM	3) Vyssilthar traveling with Lhazaar in half-elf form. Did the humans of that time period even know what elves were? Did elves have any sort of contact with Sarlona? Did half-elves even exist at the time of Lhaazar's voyage? These are mostly quibbles, but I am curious as to what everyone else thinks. In the ECS it is mentioned that Inspired are the result of a careful breeding plan of humans with elven and draconic lines. How they acquired the specimens is a mystery but after they fled Xen'drik losing a few ships isn't strange at all. Even having trading partners amongst the nations of Sarlona during the wars wouldn't be odd. It'd be profitable.
Egres 10-29-07, 10:49 AM	In the ECS it is mentioned that Inspired are the result of a careful breeding plan of humans with elven and draconic lines. Draconic? Maybe you meant "fiendish".
Rauric 10-30-07, 09:52 AM	I am running an odd gestalt game where an imp/warlock continuously get 30ish on his diplomacy and bluff rolls with no magic items. He is only lvl 5. Plus someone can cast spells on themselves to boost cha. Stat boosting magic items don't seem all that odd either. It is like people using roids or some other artificial means to boost their skill at something. The wealthy would definitly do this if they could, as would adventurers. At least in my game.
Edymnion 10-30-07, 01:11 PM	Only one or two charisma boosting items on the planet? I'm sorry, but that really is patently ridiculous. If we stick to "Artificers can only make items out of the written rules, no custom stuff", then every Artificer of high enough level would be making themselves a Cloak of Charisma in order to boost their UMD checks, if nothing else. And thats not counting all of the nobles and diplomats that would getting cloaks of charisma or circlets of persuasion to boost their abilities. If not for the last war, I would honestly think there would be more charisma boosting items in Eberron than strength boosting items.
korcheck 10-30-07, 01:34 PM	They have power, but they have no interest in using it in the outer world. Another thing to consider is that given that they live in one of the most secure cities in the world and put a great value on peace, many of their powerful sorcerers won't actually have the sort of spell selection an adventurer would take. An Io'lokari who never plans to leave his peaceful city simply won't ever have a use for fireball; he's going to get more use out of things like secret page, illusory script, arcane sight, and other spells that support his studies or civilian life. Except if this is the case then how did they hold off the dragon assault when their patron died? I feel that they are probably more of the view that they want nothing more than peace and to be left alone to sudy, but with the ever present dragon threat they also keep to the study of war until such time they no longer feel they need it...... at which point the dragons come stomp them into the ground
Hellcow 10-30-07, 07:34 PM	Except if this is the case then how did they hold off the dragon assault when their patron died? I feel that they are probably more of the view that they want nothing more than peace and to be left alone to sudy, but with the ever present dragon threat they also keep to the study of war until such time they no longer feel they need it...... at which point the dragons come stomp them into the ground Don't get me wrong, Korcheck. Io'lokar needs to be prepared to defend itself from rogues of the Vast and other dangers. And just like in any society, there are people who will specialize in that: the Arnaaracaex, Union of the Spear, and Union of the Shield. But because the city has such powerful guardians, other citizens may feel that they don't need to pursue the arts of war. The threat exists, but actual attacks are infrequent. An Io'lokari sorcerer who's not part of one of the guardian groups may have a few spells for personal defense... I'm just saying that he's more likely to choose his spells based on what serves him in his daily life, and for those who don't actually serve in the militia or guardian forces, one of those people who "has never set foot outside the city", there's relatively little need for many of the spells that an adventuring sorcerer would consider necessary - and great value in spells that the PC might consider a wasted slot. On the other hand, a sorcerer dedicated to the defense of the city would certainly be prepared with offensive magic... and another might have a few powerful spells so he can serve as a reservist if necessary. I'm just saying that while there are threats to the city, by and large its citizens live peaceful lives, never even leaving the city and focusing on research or craft; as such, their needs are very different from the traditional adventurer. I don't think they'll ever feel that they "don't need" war. But I do think that they don't need every citizen in the city to be prepared for battle on a moment's notice. They have a powerful standing defense force; many citizens can comfortably put their faith in these guardians. In terms of that looming threat, bear in mind that there are two separate dangers. The most immediate is dragons of the Vast; independent dragons who wish to claim the territory out of pride, distaste for the presence of the humanoids, to break past embarassment, to pass the time, or what have you. Some of the dominion lords have humanoid forces of their own. Nonetheless, we're talking about individual dragons; when you consider the collective power in Io'lokar, it would take a significant alliance to pose a threat, as it did 400 years ago. It's not the kind of thing where dragons attack the city itself on a daily basis, because that would just be insanity on the part of the dragons. The danger is there, and the defenders need to be ready to face it whenever the tide rises again. But it shouldn't happen that often. The other threat is the Conclave. Io'lokar only exists because the Conclave allows it to exist, and as page 42 says, "A long as the Io'lokari are careful to stay within the boundaries of behavior proscribed for them when the Io'vakas was new, the Conclave seems content to leave the city be. However, both the Io'lokari and the Keepers accept that the city exists at the Conclave's whim. If any nondragons seek the forbidden lore of dragonkind once again... no force of will or lesser magic will be enough to save them." My point is that the Conclave is a constant threat, but one that's too great to fight. You know it's there, but the way to combat it is to play by the rules... which means not being seen AS a threat by the dragons of the Conclave. Essentially, it's a balancing act; they need to be powerful enough to defend themselves from the dominion lords, but in the process they can't pursue paths that would turn the Conclave against them. A PC may always want the better weapon, the greater power; the Io'lokari want knowledge, but at a certain point they need to avoid getting more power than they actually need, lest they incur the ire of the Conclave.
Edymnion 10-30-07, 11:12 PM	So far I've finally gotten to read through the Argonessa chapter of DoE, and I'm loving it. Presented exactly the way I thought it should be. Although, I do wonder about Io'lokar. Given the high leveled primary casters in the place, the relatively small area they have to defend, and the defenses they have, it starts to look like the Dragons would actually be pretty hard pressed to destroy the city. It's average citizen appears to be of equal CR to your average classless dragon, and the Dragon's superior numbers don't mean much when they are attacking such a relatively small target. Only a small percentage could actually be in the area at once, and even then if they got too dense they would just be all the easier to pick off with area attacks (hitting multiple dragons with fireballs or lightning bolts, for example). I mean, this city would rival if not exceed the power of Aerenal, and its said that one reason the Dragons don't attack is because of the massive losses they would take in doing so. It honestly sounds like if that city decided "We aren't going to lay down and die", that they stand a very good chance of doing a fairly massive amount of damage to the dragons before going under. I know their culture is one of peace and learning, but we already have in the book where they repulsed a full on attack by the local Vast dragons, and hung the skulls of said dragons on the freaking walls. That might be a fun scenario to test out sometime. Just how long could Io'lokar hold out against the dragons, should they decide it was time to destroy the city? Especially if the Io'lokarians have enough forewarning to actually prepare defenses and specifically train for the fight?
Burch 10-30-07, 11:47 PM	So far I've finally gotten to read through the Argonessa chapter of DoE, and I'm loving it. Presented exactly the way I thought it should be. Although, I do wonder about Io'lokar. Given the high leveled primary casters in the place, the relatively small area they have to defend, and the defenses they have, it starts to look like the Dragons would actually be pretty hard pressed to destroy the city. It's average citizen appears to be of equal CR to your average classless dragon, and the Dragon's superior numbers don't mean much when they are attacking such a relatively small target. Only a small percentage could actually be in the area at once, and even then if they got too dense they would just be all the easier to pick off with area attacks (hitting multiple dragons with fireballs or lightning bolts, for example). I mean, this city would rival if not exceed the power of Aerenal, and its said that one reason the Dragons don't attack is because of the massive losses they would take in doing so. It honestly sounds like if that city decided "We aren't going to lay down and die", that they stand a very good chance of doing a fairly massive amount of damage to the dragons before going under. I know their culture is one of peace and learning, but we already have in the book where they repulsed a full on attack by the local Vast dragons, and hung the skulls of said dragons on the freaking walls. That might be a fun scenario to test out sometime. Just how long could Io'lokar hold out against the dragons, should they decide it was time to destroy the city? Especially if the Io'lokarians have enough forewarning to actually prepare defenses and specifically train for the fight? TD Io'lokar, maybe? Hmm...Game Day is coming up. This would be a cool one shot.
Hellcow 10-31-07, 02:44 AM	Given the high leveled primary casters in the place, the relatively small area they have to defend, and the defenses they have, it starts to look like the Dragons would actually be pretty hard pressed to destroy the city... It's average citizen appears to be of equal CR to your average classless dragon, and the Dragon's superior numbers don't mean much when they are attacking such a relatively small target. Well, a few things to bear in mind when considering the power wielded by the Conclave... Though high level, the majority of the people of Io'lokar still use NPC classes. A 7th-level expert/8th-level adept is an astonishingly gifted individual, and his BAB and hit points will be great next to an average soldier of Khorvaire, but he's not going to want to go toe-to-toe with a dragon. They have mighty soldiers, but it's the City of Knowledge, not the City of War; many of their citizens are craftsmen and scholars and won't be directly useful in an epic-level conflict. While the small area of Io'lokar would prevent vast numbers from being brought to bear, that would mean that the Light of Siberys and Eyes of Chronepsis would select their best for the task - so in all likelihood you'd be dealing with classed dragons, trained in military operations. Sure, an unclassed adult dragon will bring little to the fight; thus, you'll get the elder wyrm runecarved soldier in his place. Beyond this, I'd expect magic to play as much of a role as force, and that's the key: the dragons of the Conclave have access to epic magic unseen anywhere else... the same magic the Io'lokari are forbidden to pursue. This isd the power that shattered Xen'drik, that created the Du'rashka Tul, that the giants used to sever planes; its limitations are in the hands of the DM. It's the sort of power they will rarely unleash, because it is atomic bomb level stuff; the fate of Xen'drik shows that. Random dragons of the Vast don't have access to this. But the focused power of Argonnessen destroyed the giants of Xen'drik, who had access to powers the Io'lokari don't. If the Conclave wished to preserve the city or are afraid of unleashing their full power in Argonnessen for some reason, there's certainly room to draw things out; but if all they wanted to do was destroy it, I have a hard time seeing the current forces standing against the full power of Argonnessen. With that said, if you want to run the adventure, make it happen. You could downplay the power of the epic magic the dragons have hidden away; perhaps, after the destruction of Xen'drik, they destroyed this knowledge and don't actually have this power any more. Perhaps a group of Io'lokari HAVE mastered this ancient magic, and are thus able to defend themselves - but will it prove too dangerous for humanoids to handle, as with Aureon's Folly long ago? Will the Io'lokari do more harm with this new power than the dragons ever would - to where the PCs will have to help the Conclave infiltrate Io'lokar and break it's power? Could Io'lokar fall under the influence of an unbound rajah - again, giving the city the power to resist the draconic magic, but turning it into a weapon of darkness? Alternately, you could bring the Draleus Tairn into play, saying that the alliance between dragonslayer and the City of Knowledge allows for the create of new anti-dragon magic never seen before. The main thing is that by default, Io'lokar is supposed to be powerful enough to preserve itself against the dragons of the Vast, but not so powerful as to challenge the Conclave. Argonnessen is first and foremost the land of dragons, and the dragons are supposed to be the most fearsome free power in Eberron. If the Conclave sought to subjugate Io'lokar by conventional means, it would certainly be a bitter battle, requiring the dragons to marshal the mightiest forces of the Light of Siberys. But if they just wanted to destroy it - if they're willing to raze the region using the powers they unleashed on Xen'drik - they do have that power in reserve. Only a small percentage could actually be in the area at once, and even then if they got too dense they would just be all the easier to pick off with area attacks (hitting multiple dragons with fireballs or lightning bolts, for example). Sure, but that's why the LoS would use its best, and why they'd be loaded up with defensive magic beforehand. Quality as opposed to quantity would be the issue. You're likely dealing with elder wyrms with class levels of their own who know what they're in for, and who will be equipped with magic items and defensive spells. They've been watching the city closely since its creation; they know the power of its people. The dragons of the Vast simply don't have the numbers, resources, or military discipline to put this together. But when you get to the Light of Siberys, you're dealing with a draconic army - a force that trains in preparation for the possibility of another Age of Demons or Xen'drik war. They won't blunder in; they will approach the situation with tactical precision, using both magic and physical might. I mean, this city would rival if not exceed the power of Aerenal... Yes and no. In terms of the levels of its inhabitants? Sure. But it DOESN'T have the Undying Court. It's the gestalt power of the Undying Court - that power that does rival that of a divine force - that makes Aerenal a defensive force to be reckoned with, not individual councilors coming out on the battlefield. So yes, in terms of conventional forces, Io'lokar exceeds Aerenal. And OFFENSIVELY - if they took the sdhow on the road - Io'lokar would have the edge, because the full power of the UC is limited to Aerenal. But on their holy ground, the elves are hard to beat. Of course, page 11 points out that Aerenal itself has never faced the full power possessed by the Conclave... and that it's entirely possible the dragons have never even tried to win the war, but rather fought it for the sake of hardening the elves or acting as a proving ground for the young soldiers of the Light of Siberys. Aerenal's survival is impressive, but again, the giants were greater than Io'lokari and Aereni - and the dragons wiped them out. To me, the key point is that the dragons have devastating power... but the issue is that it's devastating power. When they unleashed their force on Xen'drik, they wiped out elves along with giants; the repurcussions of the magic they unleashed are still in effect today. Essentially, it's best for all of us if the dragons are never pressed into flexing their true might, because it is the sort of power that leaves scars that linger for thousands of years. You know, something that completely destroys a nation, spawning monsters and twisting magic in the blasted wasteland that remains, leaving others to mour... hang on, that's starting to sound familiar. That might be a fun scenario to test out sometime. Just how long could Io'lokar hold out against the dragons, should they decide it was time to destroy the city? Despite all that I've said, I certainly think it would be a fun campaign. The Conclave surely won't want to release devastating epic magic unless it absolutely has to; you never want to nuke in your own homeland, after all. So you could run it as a series of escalating events, with the Light of Siberys initially dispatching basic forces to surpress the situation, then sending in more experienced forces and playing more careful strategems... while the elders of Io'lokar race to find a way to counter the epic destructive magic waiting in the wings before the Conclave authorizes its use. So there's something of that sense of the Alamo; we're holed up, it seems hopeless; but we won't give up until no one is left. And if the PCs help the city build an effective defense only to find that they HAVE just created a safe haven for an unbound rajah pulling the strings of the city... all the better!
Yakman 10-31-07, 12:16 PM	Aerenal's survival is impressive, but again, the giants were greater than Io'lokari and Aereni - and the dragons wiped them out. But only AFTER the Giants had been fatally weakened by the Quori War and their own pyhrric super weapon. Plus, the Giants were concerned about the elven revolt and the dragons hit them by surprise. On more even terms, I'd like to think that the giants would have been more than capable of at least defending themselves against the dragons... Then again, I hate dragons (at least the ones with wings...)
Edymnion 10-31-07, 01:36 PM	Yes, the highest level dragon stuff is an atomic bomb, but thats also why I don't think they would actually use it, they'd likely take half the Vast along with Io'lokar. Scorched Earth doesn't work so well when you want to keep living there when you're done, after all. Even so, the classed dragons still tend to only have class levels comprable with those in Io'lokar, mid to upper teens. And given the level of spellcasters Io'lokar could apparently bring to bare, it doesn't sound unreasonable in the least to think they're going to have people that can throw around Disjunctions to just really screw with dragon gear and buffs. I'm not saying the dragons wouldn't win, thats inevitable, I'm saying that from the sound of it, taking out Io'lokar (much less a prepared Io'lokar that is ready and willing to fight back, instead of just rolling over) would cost the dragons a terrible price. I mean, the book specifically mentions (albeit, in all likelyhood, in jest) adolescent spellcasters summoning epic monsters. If there was anybody in that city with access to Summon Monster IX or Gate to bring in reinforcements, like Elemental Monoliths, that would be one HELL of a fight. Sure, the dragons would win in the end, but I'd think that city could easily leave them with a bloody nose in the end, if not worse. We already have been told that the guard there is already wanting to train dragonslayers and possibly some anti-dragon magic to defend the city from rogues, and those spells and levels work just as well against the Thousand as they do against a few rogues. Ooh yeah, and we've got the fugitive Yuan-ti that would have been perfecting anti-dragon tactics for centuries. That place is a powder keg. Sure, its a WET powder keg right now, but if you could dry it out (get them to stop being so worshipful of the dragons) without anyone finding out until it was too late, what a bang that would make!
Hellcow 10-31-07, 04:38 PM	But only AFTER the Giants had been fatally weakened by the Quori War and their own pyhrric super weapon. Plus, the Giants were concerned about the elven revolt and the dragons hit them by surprise. True... but that pyrrhic superweapon was something they developed based on draconic magic. My point is when it comes to serious, full-on war, physical combat is the least of Argonnessen's weapons. We're talking about a race of geniuses, whose members innately possess arcane and divine casting ability, who have been studying magic for a hundred thousand years... and who, for that matter, have access to artifacts from the Age of Demons. The Light of Siberys is dedicated to war, and they have loredrakes and forgewyrms as well as soldiers; we know some of what they used in Xen'drik, but they've have 40,000 years to continue developing since then. Essentially, they are a superpower with nuclear weapons. Their conventional forces are impressive, but can be matched; but it's the nuclear stockpile you need to worry about. One on one, a storm giant with significant class levels can easily match a dragon. The problem is when the dragons hit you with something like the Du'rashka Tul (Secrets of Xen'drik, page 53) and your own people tear you apart. I agree with Edymnion's premise that they won't want to use such weapons on their own soil if they can avoid it, but if conventional forces don't work, they can bring in those weapons of mass destruction. The other issue is that after Aureon's Folly, they know the risks of sharing knowledge with humanoids, and there are many who don't trust the Io'lokari. As such, I would expected that the Light of Siberys has strategists constantly working on the issue of what to do if the city becomes a threat. After all, next to the Lords of Dust, it's the most immediate threat to them, since it's right in their lap. So looking at things like the Du'rashka Tul, they may have specifically developed magical weapons held in reserve for use against the Io'lokari... essentially, instead of nukes, they've got their neutron bomb specially developed in case Io'lokar becomes a problem. Of course, this could be the very thing that sets off the conflict in question. If an Io'lokari spy discovers the Light's war plans and/or the nature of their weapons, the Io'lokari may decide that they have no choice but to act - and possibly have time to come up with a counter to the doomsday weapon of choice, meaning that the dragons will have to consider if they are willing to use one of the true scorched earth weapons or not. Even so, the classed dragons still tend to only have class levels comprable with those in Io'lokar, mid to upper teens. Well, when you're talking about spellcasting, a metallic or red great wyrm loredrake is a 21st level caster, and that's with no class levels at all. And personally, in keeping with the ideas of the dragons as the true masters of magic in Eberron and keepers of epic secrets, I treat dragons the spellcasting abilities of dragons like those of rakshasa - which is to say, if a dragon takes sorcerer levels or prestige classes that enhance arcane casting, they stack with his draconic caster level. So it's the gold great wyrm loredrake with the 5 archmage levels you need to worry about. Now, that's me. Yakman, if you hate dragons, screw 'em. They've been around for a long time, maybe they've just been pushing the PR and they aren't so tough at all. But for me, the point is that the dragons know more about magic than any other species... that the inspiration for the Sovereign of Magic was a dragon. What's said about Io'lokar is that the dragons haven't shared their greatest secrets with them - that they have held back the greatest magics that they shared with the giants, and that they will destroy the city if they feel they get too close to this level of power. For me, the intent here is to say that they have powerful epic spellcasters... which requires either allowing existing spellcasting classes or PrCs to stack, or if that offends you, the creation of a PrC that specifically serves this purpose. One of the big things here is that in core, magic usually isn't a dragon's greatest weapon. In Eberron, that still holds true for the typical individual dragon... but the Light of Siberys and the Eyes of Chronepsis don't act as individuals. Their greatest power is their magic, which is more advanced than that held by any other civilization. Eberron is about the incorporation of magic into the world... and the dragons are a few tech levels above everyone else. That's the big edge they have, if they are pushed to where they feel the need to use it. We already have been told that the guard there is already wanting to train dragonslayers and possibly some anti-dragon magic to defend the city from rogues, and those spells and levels work just as well against the Thousand as they do against a few rogues. The Thousand? Sure. But the Light of Siberys? That's a different story. Again, you're dealing with dragons who are trained to fight raksahsa rajahs, and who have specifically been considering the problem of Io'lokar since the city was created... and remember, you're dealing with strategists with Int and Wis in the 30's. They aren't going to act like rogues. They'll evaluate the possible threats and be prepared with countering effects. Again, I'm not saying that the fight is impossible or hopeless; I'm just saying that it would be a COMPLETELY different conflict than anything Io'lokar has faced before. Ooh yeah, and we've got the fugitive Yuan-ti that would have been perfecting anti-dragon tactics for centuries. Sure. Bring in the yuan-ti, the Draleus Tairn, or a rajah and you can certainly change the balance of power. Of course, there you could end up with a victory being the worst thing possible. Personally, I love the idea of the epic PCs helping the people of Io'lokar perfect defenses that can hold off even the Light of Siberys, only to discover that the city is the tool of an unbound rajah and they've got an even worse problem on their hands. Perhaps the Io'lokari have developed an anti-dragon virus and reduced the population of Argonnessen to 1/100th of its original level. With the couatl gone, the dragons virtually wiped out, can the PCs stop the new Age of Demons? Anyhow, it's dumb for me to be arguing this, so I'll stop here. It's not my place to tell you what to do in your campaign. My intent is simply to clarify the original design intent. The base idea of the city is to be Shangri-la - the hidden land of wonders. But the point is that for all its power and wonder, one of the things that keeps it from having impact on the outside world is that looming shadow of the Conclave. As page 42 says, Io'lokar is allowed to exist as long as its people are careful to stay within the bounds of behavior set out for them. Essentially, Io'lokar has played little role in history, and I don't want it to unbalance things now. As it stands, a justification for why Io'lokari don't bop around doing things in Khorvaire is because their pact with the dragons requires them to remain passive. Should the dragons no longer pose a threat, it's possible for the city to play a more active role. I want the Io'lokari to respect the power of the Light of Siberys; I want this to be something that keeps them in the shadows, so they don't become a global player. But that's what I want; if you like the idea of them being able to challenge the greatest powers of Argonnessen (or just to play out a "last days of Io'lokar" doomsday campaign), go with it.
korcheck 10-31-07, 05:05 PM	Here's something to consider the U.S. has war plans for every country in the world and multiple contingencies for each. If the U.S. capable of this, than my guess is that, a race of enormous “super genius’s” (though in reality even some of them can be quite dumb) preparing for the eventual return of the demons have done the same thing only better. They have had time longer than humans have even been on our own earth to develop and redevelop those plans. They live their lives with the experience of a huge war only two maybe three generations before quite like our own world war two. We may be forgetting the lessons learned from that war with our country/world wide ADHD but I don’t think they have. They’re still in their own version of the cold war.