My thoughts on Dragons of Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

My thoughts on Dragons of Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ZeroSD
10-14-07, 06:38 AM I've had a chance to read through DoE a bit so I'm going to post some of my thoughts.

The Good: History. DoE goes into more depth on the early days of the world starting with the Progenitors and the Dragon's perspective on what went down with the Dhakaani and Xen'drik. A lot of very good information.

The also-Good: Religion. The dragon religion, their views on other religion, and the prophecy are also well-handled and work well. I was especially impressed with how Tiamat was handled, figured it'd be hard to shoe-horn her in, but she was handled quite well and has an interesting role in Dragon belief.

The also-also good: Society. Dragon society and originization is well-mapped out. How the different regions of Dragons each live in different ways, and the non-Dragons on the continent, is all mapped out. The one non-Draconic city on dragonland is an interesting location to visit (and I like that it's non-Dragon city Mk 2).

The also-also-also good: NPCs. There's a lot of them in the book, human, dragon, and non-dragon alike, from all over Eberron. Very useful in adventures and the like, there's enough crunch to satify those who want to make it easy to game in the region.

The Ugly: Location maps. I don't know who thought it'd be a good idea (on-high from WotC?) to litter the book with a lot of mini-maps but I'm getting some MMIV flashbacks. Floorplans and simple maps are useful in an adventure, but just a location with half a page of room descriptions isn't an adventure so they aren't useful enough to strike me as, well, useful either, and many of the locations don't seem to warrant them. We'd be better off if they just mentioned the hooks for the adventure without wasting so much space on maps. If there were a third as many (which would still be a noticable amount) but they had more info to go along with them I'd be ok with that, but they're the biggest space-waster in an otherwise useful book, and they don't look too eye-pleasing at that. They should be shoved into a DM/adventure suppliment and accompanying larger adventures, not just taking up a page or two on a location where a paragraph or two's description would work.

Question that occured to me while reading- Are we ever going to get info on the surviving few Coualts?

Overall, I'd rate it highly as a book, but the wasted space and ugly maps drag it down below the top Eberron setting-information books like Sharn and Sarlona.
DragoonDarkfire
10-14-07, 12:05 PM I'd say that Couatl's are about a few hundred strong. Perhaps somewhere in the 800-1000 region.

That may seem like a lot, but when you consider how far reaching the plots of the Khyber spawned are and how many area's might need the guarding of a Couatl (whether it be a bound feind or magic item) then I think that number could be reasonable.
ZeroSD
10-14-07, 12:08 PM That sounds about right to me. They're rare and it's understanble why they aren't seen, but when they *do* show up, it should be cool.
Amaril
10-14-07, 12:13 PM Question that occured to me while reading- Are we ever going to get info on the surviving few Coualts?
That would make an interesting Web Enhancement or Dragonshards article.
(Psi)SeveredHead
10-14-07, 12:32 PM Can you tell us more about Tiamat?
Amaril
10-14-07, 12:33 PM Can you tell us more about Tiamat?

And the Spawn of Tiamat?!
Hellcow
10-14-07, 01:07 PM That would make an interesting Web Enhancement or Dragonshards article.
I'll keep that in mind. It is a good question.
Edymnion
10-14-07, 01:27 PM That would make an interesting Web Enhancement or Dragonshards article.:bow:
ZeroSD
10-14-07, 05:36 PM Can you tell us more about Tiamat?

Quick answer: She's an honorary evil god in their pantheon.

Honorary because she's not a god, she's a Rajah, the bane of the Argonnessen dragons during the Age of Demons :)

And the Spawn of Tiamat?!

Less lame than anywhere else! They're made around her prison, from which her influence still spreads and cultists of the Talons of Tiamat sneak in and do rituals and similar things, although this is hard due to the efforts of volunteer guard placed by the Light of Siberys who brave the corrupting influence of the place to ensure the captivity and containment of their hated foe.

-

That would make an interesting Web Enhancement or Dragonshards article.

Agreed!
Hellcow
10-14-07, 06:11 PM Honorary because she's not a god, she's a Rajah, the bane of the Argonnessen dragons during the Age of Demons
To expand on this slightly: while they are not gods, rajahs do essentially have domains. The Rage of War is a spirit of strife and battle. The Heart of Winter spreads cold wherever she goes. And the Daughter of Khyber governs the evil that lurks within dragons. Khyber and Siberys were siblings, and thus the spark of Khyber is in every dragon; Tiamat has the power to fan that spark into a flame. So she remains the queen of evil dragons... but any dragon can fall prey to her corrupting influence.

There's more to this, and to the role she plays in present and past, but that's all I'll say for now.
Charles Phipps
10-14-07, 07:36 PM Anything on Bahamut?
Amaril
10-14-07, 08:01 PM Anything on Bahamut?

Yeah, I'd like to see how one might be able to squeeze in Dragonborn into Eberron.
Hellcow
10-14-07, 08:16 PM Anything on Bahamut?
Tiamat aside, the dragon gods are gods... meaning that, like the other gods of Eberron, their existence can be questioned. The dragons believe in Bahamut, and the nature of this belief is described in the book, but they do not expect Bahamut to physically manifest in the world.

Now, a physical Bahamut is not required in order to use the Dragonborn. After all, clerics can work miracles even if there is no assurance of gods. The dragons believe in Bahamut, and believe that Bahamut is a power greater than any Sovereign, so you could certainly say that people can be transformed by its power.

Dragons of Eberron doesn't actually address the Dragonborn; if Eberron Expanded gets going again (I'm actually working on a different set of articles right now) it would be a logical thing to cover, since it would be easy to align it with DoE. Members of the Chamber might recognize those with the potential to become Dragonborn in the workings of the Prophecy and seek them out, while the Talons of Tiamat would try to destroy them before they could achieve their destiny. Those who became Dragonborn might be accepted by groups such as the Light of Siberys in a way no normal human would be.

So: IIRC, DoE doesn't specifically address Dragonborn... but I think it would be quite easy to add them in.
Amaril
10-14-07, 08:38 PM You know, Keith, there's this wonderful new site called Gleemax where you can post this kind of content freely, and WotC might take some of those ideas and incorporate them into their own releases and articles. ;)
Amaril
11-13-07, 12:08 PM Keith and Nick, great work on Dragons of Eberron, by the way. I've been reading it over and over and loving every page of it. I'm finding it very useful for planting in material from Draconomicon, Dragon Magic and Races of the Dragon. I'm actually compiling an outline of notes for incorporating the character options from those three books into Eberron using cues from Dragons of Eberron. (Boy was I off about the archetypes (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14023635&postcount=3).) These notes are basically 2-3 lines about each PrC and race, including the dragontouched variants in Dragon Magic.

Regarding Dragonborn, I definitely see them as a Light of Siberys thing. It's far too perfect for such a role. The dragonborn could be the collection of individual humanoid agents who are deemed worthy by the actual dragons of the Light of Siberys for one reason or another. I'd make them extremely rare and very important as individuals; it certainly wouldn't be a race used on a player's whim.

Interestingly enough, Dragonborn also qualify for some of those shapechanging feats in Dragons of Eberron which facilitates traveling unnoticed in Khorvaire.

I'm a little annoyed by the Gem Dragons sidebar, but I now see why Gem Dragons don't have much of a role in Eberron. I can also see why Keith feels they work well as creatures of Dal Quor, although I might make them denizens of the Astral Plane instead.

All in all, I'm very happy with this book. It's become one of my favorites among my entire collection of D&D books. Thanks for the great work!
Hellcow
11-13-07, 12:37 PM I glad to hear you're enjoying it, Amaril. I understand your frustration with the gem dragon approach, but I think we understand one another's respective opinions there.

Regarding the dragonborn, while we didn't fit them into the book, I think there's many interesting ways they could be brought into the setting. They could certainly be agents chosen by the Light of Siberys, as you suggest, with close connections and an honored status in the eyes of the Light. For a different approach, they could be apparently chosen by Bahamut himself - something that could actually frighten some of the dragons. The dragons are used to the idea that the dragon gods deal with the dragons, not with humans. So why has Bahamut chosen these other creatures to be his champions? Have the dragons failed him? Combined with the dragonmarks appearing on humanoids, this could spark a general concern that the time of dragons is coming to an end, that even their gods are abandoning them. Most wouldn't turn on the dragonborn or anything like that; regardless of personal feelings, the priests of Thir have confirmed that these people are touched by Bahamut. But there could certainly be an undercurrent of fear and jealousy in their dealings.

Boy was I off about the archetypes.
Yes, I was amused by that. ;)
Nlogue
11-13-07, 05:13 PM Keith and Nick, great work on Dragons of Eberron, by the way. I've been reading it over and over and loving every page of it.

Thanks Amaril! Most of that magic is all the mighty Keith. I am responsible for the entirety of the Xen'drik chapter, and a few minor parts of the Argonessen section. All of the delicious setting defining awesomeness is Keith's magic touch. Great job Baker, es por usual.
Hellcow
11-13-07, 05:27 PM Most of that magic is all the mighty Keith.
Amber and Scott might want a little of that credit too, Nic. ;) There was a lot of general collaboration while we were working on the book, and I think we had strong synergy going (easily a +2 bonus to the Craft check). At the end of the day, I wrote the first forty pages - the Introduction and Argonnessen up to Io'lokar, with a few little bits and pieces elsewhere in the book. Nic did Xen'drik, Amber did Khorvaire, Scott did Riedra, and all three of them worked on the encounters and locations section of Argonessen. So it was a big team effort.
Nlogue
11-13-07, 05:53 PM Amber and Scott might want a little of that credit too, Nic. ;) There was a lot of general collaboration while we were working on the book, and I think we had strong synergy going (easily a +2 bonus to the Craft check). At the end of the day, I wrote the first forty pages - the Introduction and Argonnessen up to Io'lokar, with a few little bits and pieces elsewhere in the book. Nic did Xen'drik, Amber did Khorvaire, Scott did Riedra, and all three of them worked on the encounters and locations section of Argonessen. So it was a big team effort.

Oh Totally! Amber and Scott are the snizzle baby! I was just referring to the awesomeness Amaril was throwing around - all your work my man...sure we chimed in, but you are the masta! :)
Amaril
11-13-07, 09:27 PM Interestingly enough, Dragonborn also qualify for some of those shapechanging feats in Dragons of Eberron which facilitates traveling unnoticed in Khorvaire.
Ugh, I apparently misread the dragonblood subtype description. Dragonborn do not qualify for these feats. Evidently, dragonblood creatures are only affected as dragons and do not qualify as dragons for purposes of feats, PrCs, etc.
Euangelion
11-29-07, 05:17 PM Just wanted to let Keith, Nick, Amber and Scott that I've really enjoyed DoE. Great work overall. Thanks!
(Man, how long have I been asleep? :zzz: I really should get out more.)
Belabras
11-29-07, 10:27 PM Just wanted to let Keith, Nick, Amber and Scott that I've really enjoyed DoE. Great work overall. Thanks!
(Man, how long have I been asleep? :zzz: I really should get out more.)

Same here. A really great source book, packed with great info. I'm looking forward to Stormreach!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ZeroSD 10-14-07, 06:38 AM	I've had a chance to read through DoE a bit so I'm going to post some of my thoughts. The Good: History. DoE goes into more depth on the early days of the world starting with the Progenitors and the Dragon's perspective on what went down with the Dhakaani and Xen'drik. A lot of very good information. The also-Good: Religion. The dragon religion, their views on other religion, and the prophecy are also well-handled and work well. I was especially impressed with how Tiamat was handled, figured it'd be hard to shoe-horn her in, but she was handled quite well and has an interesting role in Dragon belief. The also-also good: Society. Dragon society and originization is well-mapped out. How the different regions of Dragons each live in different ways, and the non-Dragons on the continent, is all mapped out. The one non-Draconic city on dragonland is an interesting location to visit (and I like that it's non-Dragon city Mk 2). The also-also-also good: NPCs. There's a lot of them in the book, human, dragon, and non-dragon alike, from all over Eberron. Very useful in adventures and the like, there's enough crunch to satify those who want to make it easy to game in the region. The Ugly: Location maps. I don't know who thought it'd be a good idea (on-high from WotC?) to litter the book with a lot of mini-maps but I'm getting some MMIV flashbacks. Floorplans and simple maps are useful in an adventure, but just a location with half a page of room descriptions isn't an adventure so they aren't useful enough to strike me as, well, useful either, and many of the locations don't seem to warrant them. We'd be better off if they just mentioned the hooks for the adventure without wasting so much space on maps. If there were a third as many (which would still be a noticable amount) but they had more info to go along with them I'd be ok with that, but they're the biggest space-waster in an otherwise useful book, and they don't look too eye-pleasing at that. They should be shoved into a DM/adventure suppliment and accompanying larger adventures, not just taking up a page or two on a location where a paragraph or two's description would work. Question that occured to me while reading- Are we ever going to get info on the surviving few Coualts? Overall, I'd rate it highly as a book, but the wasted space and ugly maps drag it down below the top Eberron setting-information books like Sharn and Sarlona.
DragoonDarkfire 10-14-07, 12:05 PM	I'd say that Couatl's are about a few hundred strong. Perhaps somewhere in the 800-1000 region. That may seem like a lot, but when you consider how far reaching the plots of the Khyber spawned are and how many area's might need the guarding of a Couatl (whether it be a bound feind or magic item) then I think that number could be reasonable.
ZeroSD 10-14-07, 12:08 PM	That sounds about right to me. They're rare and it's understanble why they aren't seen, but when they do show up, it should be cool.
Amaril 10-14-07, 12:13 PM	Question that occured to me while reading- Are we ever going to get info on the surviving few Coualts? That would make an interesting Web Enhancement or Dragonshards article.
(Psi)SeveredHead 10-14-07, 12:32 PM	Can you tell us more about Tiamat?
Amaril 10-14-07, 12:33 PM	Can you tell us more about Tiamat? And the Spawn of Tiamat?!
Hellcow 10-14-07, 01:07 PM	That would make an interesting Web Enhancement or Dragonshards article. I'll keep that in mind. It is a good question.
Edymnion 10-14-07, 01:27 PM	That would make an interesting Web Enhancement or Dragonshards article.:bow:
ZeroSD 10-14-07, 05:36 PM	Can you tell us more about Tiamat? Quick answer: She's an honorary evil god in their pantheon. Honorary because she's not a god, she's a Rajah, the bane of the Argonnessen dragons during the Age of Demons :) And the Spawn of Tiamat?! Less lame than anywhere else! They're made around her prison, from which her influence still spreads and cultists of the Talons of Tiamat sneak in and do rituals and similar things, although this is hard due to the efforts of volunteer guard placed by the Light of Siberys who brave the corrupting influence of the place to ensure the captivity and containment of their hated foe. - That would make an interesting Web Enhancement or Dragonshards article. Agreed!
Hellcow 10-14-07, 06:11 PM	Honorary because she's not a god, she's a Rajah, the bane of the Argonnessen dragons during the Age of Demons To expand on this slightly: while they are not gods, rajahs do essentially have domains. The Rage of War is a spirit of strife and battle. The Heart of Winter spreads cold wherever she goes. And the Daughter of Khyber governs the evil that lurks within dragons. Khyber and Siberys were siblings, and thus the spark of Khyber is in every dragon; Tiamat has the power to fan that spark into a flame. So she remains the queen of evil dragons... but any dragon can fall prey to her corrupting influence. There's more to this, and to the role she plays in present and past, but that's all I'll say for now.
Charles Phipps 10-14-07, 07:36 PM	Anything on Bahamut?
Amaril 10-14-07, 08:01 PM	Anything on Bahamut? Yeah, I'd like to see how one might be able to squeeze in Dragonborn into Eberron.
Hellcow 10-14-07, 08:16 PM	Anything on Bahamut? Tiamat aside, the dragon gods are gods... meaning that, like the other gods of Eberron, their existence can be questioned. The dragons believe in Bahamut, and the nature of this belief is described in the book, but they do not expect Bahamut to physically manifest in the world. Now, a physical Bahamut is not required in order to use the Dragonborn. After all, clerics can work miracles even if there is no assurance of gods. The dragons believe in Bahamut, and believe that Bahamut is a power greater than any Sovereign, so you could certainly say that people can be transformed by its power. Dragons of Eberron doesn't actually address the Dragonborn; if Eberron Expanded gets going again (I'm actually working on a different set of articles right now) it would be a logical thing to cover, since it would be easy to align it with DoE. Members of the Chamber might recognize those with the potential to become Dragonborn in the workings of the Prophecy and seek them out, while the Talons of Tiamat would try to destroy them before they could achieve their destiny. Those who became Dragonborn might be accepted by groups such as the Light of Siberys in a way no normal human would be. So: IIRC, DoE doesn't specifically address Dragonborn... but I think it would be quite easy to add them in.
Amaril 10-14-07, 08:38 PM	You know, Keith, there's this wonderful new site called Gleemax where you can post this kind of content freely, and WotC might take some of those ideas and incorporate them into their own releases and articles. ;)
Amaril 11-13-07, 12:08 PM	Keith and Nick, great work on Dragons of Eberron, by the way. I've been reading it over and over and loving every page of it. I'm finding it very useful for planting in material from Draconomicon, Dragon Magic and Races of the Dragon. I'm actually compiling an outline of notes for incorporating the character options from those three books into Eberron using cues from Dragons of Eberron. (Boy was I off about the archetypes (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=14023635&postcount=3).) These notes are basically 2-3 lines about each PrC and race, including the dragontouched variants in Dragon Magic. Regarding Dragonborn, I definitely see them as a Light of Siberys thing. It's far too perfect for such a role. The dragonborn could be the collection of individual humanoid agents who are deemed worthy by the actual dragons of the Light of Siberys for one reason or another. I'd make them extremely rare and very important as individuals; it certainly wouldn't be a race used on a player's whim. Interestingly enough, Dragonborn also qualify for some of those shapechanging feats in Dragons of Eberron which facilitates traveling unnoticed in Khorvaire. I'm a little annoyed by the Gem Dragons sidebar, but I now see why Gem Dragons don't have much of a role in Eberron. I can also see why Keith feels they work well as creatures of Dal Quor, although I might make them denizens of the Astral Plane instead. All in all, I'm very happy with this book. It's become one of my favorites among my entire collection of D&D books. Thanks for the great work!
Hellcow 11-13-07, 12:37 PM	I glad to hear you're enjoying it, Amaril. I understand your frustration with the gem dragon approach, but I think we understand one another's respective opinions there. Regarding the dragonborn, while we didn't fit them into the book, I think there's many interesting ways they could be brought into the setting. They could certainly be agents chosen by the Light of Siberys, as you suggest, with close connections and an honored status in the eyes of the Light. For a different approach, they could be apparently chosen by Bahamut himself - something that could actually frighten some of the dragons. The dragons are used to the idea that the dragon gods deal with the dragons, not with humans. So why has Bahamut chosen these other creatures to be his champions? Have the dragons failed him? Combined with the dragonmarks appearing on humanoids, this could spark a general concern that the time of dragons is coming to an end, that even their gods are abandoning them. Most wouldn't turn on the dragonborn or anything like that; regardless of personal feelings, the priests of Thir have confirmed that these people are touched by Bahamut. But there could certainly be an undercurrent of fear and jealousy in their dealings. Boy was I off about the archetypes. Yes, I was amused by that. ;)
Nlogue 11-13-07, 05:13 PM	Keith and Nick, great work on Dragons of Eberron, by the way. I've been reading it over and over and loving every page of it. Thanks Amaril! Most of that magic is all the mighty Keith. I am responsible for the entirety of the Xen'drik chapter, and a few minor parts of the Argonessen section. All of the delicious setting defining awesomeness is Keith's magic touch. Great job Baker, es por usual.
Hellcow 11-13-07, 05:27 PM	Most of that magic is all the mighty Keith. Amber and Scott might want a little of that credit too, Nic. ;) There was a lot of general collaboration while we were working on the book, and I think we had strong synergy going (easily a +2 bonus to the Craft check). At the end of the day, I wrote the first forty pages - the Introduction and Argonnessen up to Io'lokar, with a few little bits and pieces elsewhere in the book. Nic did Xen'drik, Amber did Khorvaire, Scott did Riedra, and all three of them worked on the encounters and locations section of Argonessen. So it was a big team effort.
Nlogue 11-13-07, 05:53 PM	Amber and Scott might want a little of that credit too, Nic. ;) There was a lot of general collaboration while we were working on the book, and I think we had strong synergy going (easily a +2 bonus to the Craft check). At the end of the day, I wrote the first forty pages - the Introduction and Argonnessen up to Io'lokar, with a few little bits and pieces elsewhere in the book. Nic did Xen'drik, Amber did Khorvaire, Scott did Riedra, and all three of them worked on the encounters and locations section of Argonessen. So it was a big team effort. Oh Totally! Amber and Scott are the snizzle baby! I was just referring to the awesomeness Amaril was throwing around - all your work my man...sure we chimed in, but you are the masta! :)
Amaril 11-13-07, 09:27 PM	Interestingly enough, Dragonborn also qualify for some of those shapechanging feats in Dragons of Eberron which facilitates traveling unnoticed in Khorvaire. Ugh, I apparently misread the dragonblood subtype description. Dragonborn do not qualify for these feats. Evidently, dragonblood creatures are only affected as dragons and do not qualify as dragons for purposes of feats, PrCs, etc.
Euangelion 11-29-07, 05:17 PM	Just wanted to let Keith, Nick, Amber and Scott that I've really enjoyed DoE. Great work overall. Thanks! (Man, how long have I been asleep? :zzz: I really should get out more.)
Belabras 11-29-07, 10:27 PM	Just wanted to let Keith, Nick, Amber and Scott that I've really enjoyed DoE. Great work overall. Thanks! (Man, how long have I been asleep? :zzz: I really should get out more.) Same here. A really great source book, packed with great info. I'm looking forward to Stormreach!