Post/Author/DateTime	Post
St23aM 10-20-04, 09:50 PM	I was just wonder how the average person in sharn would react to seeing a necromancer and how necromancy and necromancers were viewed in eberron with the morally ambigous setting and the ability to have a "good" or "neutral" necromancer. I will be having a "Good" necromancer in my party who just sees death and undeath as a "natural" part of the world and has a philosophy that "justifies" it. He is also going to be a libral scholor of Morgrave University and consultant to the Wayfinders Guild in regards to Kyberian Mythos and Planar Knowlege. I was just wondering what others thought of these matters. -St23aM
Doctor X 10-20-04, 11:09 PM	I'd say that's very possible, and would fit very well as a follower of the Blood of Vol. Remember that the vast majority of the Blood of Vol cultists know nothing about the organization's true leader or her goals. Most are not evil-- they simply have a rather odd perspective on what undeath really is. They view it as a divine state, though... So if your guy is a Vol cultist, then you might want to show some respect for the undead you create. Don't use them as slaves for your own gain, but instead be grateful for their help (even though they have no choice... but that's okay... they're mindless anyway). This is not to say that you won't catch crap from other organizations for being a Necromancer. It's a very controversial subject, and almost everyone is bound to have some thoughts on it. Followers of the Undying Court, specifically, would probably seek to kill you...
Setherial 10-21-04, 02:47 AM	hope he doesn't have a zombie familiar following him everywhere because no matter what his alignment or beliefs are, that stinks ! Also if you were a commen farmer living the quiet life in Breland and suddenly 2 weeks after your grandmother dies some ******* wizard type digs her up, animates her corpse and makes her do his bidding, how would that make you feel ?
fizzbang 10-21-04, 08:59 AM	Also if you were a commen farmer living the quiet life in Breland and suddenly 2 weeks after your grandmother dies some ******* wizard type digs her up, animates her corpse and makes her do his bidding, how would that make you feel ? That depends entirely on how good the necromancer is at diplomacy and the like. To go back to the Blood of Vol idea, if she (or at least the farmer) were a worshipper, then you could convince them that she was now in a form that had transcended the limitations of death. Imagine a necromancer being confronted about their undead and turning it into a religious revival: "Through her inner strength and devotion, assisted by my own humble hands, she has become permanent and unending, filled with the divine power of undeath! Never again will she feel sorrow or fear, for she has overcome the greatest trial and tragedy of existence - SHE HAS OVERCOME DEATH ITSELF! And hers is not a unique gift; through devotion and faith in the Blood of Vol, any one of you faithful can do so as well!" Actually, I really look forward to a Dragonshard article on the Blood of Vol, particularly regarding the commonly known face of the religion. Now I really want to play a good, well-meaning, utterly faithful but utterly deceived cleric of the Blood of Vol...
MarkB 10-21-04, 09:22 AM	Actually, I really look forward to a Dragonshard article on the Blood of Vol, particularly regarding the commonly known face of the religion. Now I really want to play a good, well-meaning, utterly faithful but utterly deceived cleric of the Blood of Vol... What I think could be fascinating is creating a secret faction of good-aligned Vol clerics who have found out the true nature of the church's upper echelons and have dedicated themselves to creating an equally powerful faction to oppose Vol's secret aims - but whose faith in the religion's basic concepts of blood-related powers and divinity-through-undeath remains intact. The concept of the Blood of Vol eventually growing into a legitimate, non-evil religion by excising its original instigators could be very interesting.
Setherial 10-21-04, 11:11 AM	That depends entirely on how good the necromancer is at diplomacy and the like. To go back to the Blood of Vol idea, if she (or at least the farmer) were a worshipper, then you could convince them that she was now in a form that had transcended the limitations of death. Imagine a necromancer being confronted about their undead and turning it into a religious revival: "Through her inner strength and devotion, assisted by my own humble hands, she has become permanent and unending, filled with the divine power of undeath! Never again will she feel sorrow or fear, for she has overcome the greatest trial and tragedy of existence - SHE HAS OVERCOME DEATH ITSELF! And hers is not a unique gift; through devotion and faith in the Blood of Vol, any one of you faithful can do so as well!" Actually, I really look forward to a Dragonshard article on the Blood of Vol, particularly regarding the commonly known face of the religion. Now I really want to play a good, well-meaning, utterly faithful but utterly deceived cleric of the Blood of Vol... Although it is indeed interesting to roleplay such a confrontation I still find it difficult to accept that anyone would see a mindless undead as something that is better off then when it was dead. If it had a will like a vampire, then yes shure one could argue it being a next stage in life. But when you are a mindless stinking lumb of meat following orders of a necromancer it's hard to pretend it is some type of divine state. but by all means convince me :)
fizzbang 10-21-04, 11:32 AM	Although it is indeed interesting to roleplay such a confrontation I still find it difficult to accept that anyone would see a mindless undead as something that is better off then when it was dead. If it had a will like a vampire, then yes shure one could argue it being a next stage in life. But when you are a mindless stinking lumb of meat following orders of a necromancer it's hard to pretend it is some type of divine state. but by all means convince me :) Well, a big part of that is indeed what sort of undead they get raised as. Obviously, an intelligent undead is more appealing and acceptable as a "reward". I'd be interested in seeing a slightly higher level necromantic spell that allows the animated undead to have a semblance of intelligence and will (like the Karnathi undead, perhaps?). But even so, remember that when it comes to religious beliefs, there's an awful lot that a people can be convinced to believe, even despite obvious things in front of them. Grandma's a mindless zombie? "Although her divinity is limited at the moment, she has only begun the first step towards her true power: she has overcome the cruel torments of time, and in a mere century or two, she will ascend to the next stage of undeath!" Sure, it's a lie, but they won't be around to check up on it. Given the prospect of overcoming death, eternal life (or un-life), and the comforting thought that they too can become one with the divine, people will believe all sorts of things against all evidence. Just look at what real-world religions can get away with while offering similar promises; and they don't even have obvious magical effects they can point to... (No malicious blasphemy intended to the extremely religious. The above example is used only to illustrate a point.)
Euangelion 10-21-04, 01:00 PM	Part of this issue has to do with how each person and/or culture looks at corpses. Are they to be preserved and honored after death? Then kill anyone who disturbs it. Is it an empty shell with no remaining connection to the deceased and now it's a zombie? Meh. M. E. H. Meh.
Euangelion 10-21-04, 01:04 PM	hope he doesn't have a zombie familiar following him everywhere because no matter what his alignment or beliefs are, that stinks ! Also if you were a commen farmer living the quiet life in Breland and suddenly 2 weeks after your grandmother dies some ******* wizard type digs her up, animates her corpse and makes her do his bidding, how would that make you feel ? I've always thought that the undead servant feature of an high level ex-paladin blackguard is, at the very least, a bit odd. "Hi, I'd like you to meet my servant, Rotting Corpse. Don't mind the smell."
Neofish 10-21-04, 02:43 PM	I think this is one of the Biggest misconceptions of the Karnnathi Necromancer. I don't see a Kannathi as the bone-clad, stinky grave-robbing necromancer. More like an elegant, black and red robed, nobleman that wouldn't lower himself to raising any corpes he coud find. I see them as the kind who raise only the worthy (teachings of Vol), i. e. Karnnathi soldiers, noble adversaries and the like. Meeting a Karnnathi Necromancer is a treat, he could probably explain-away your misconceptions with a light-hearted manner. At least this is how i'm going to play my necromancer....
Aurum 10-21-04, 03:12 PM	I imagine a Necromancer would illicit similar reactions as, say, an Evoker or (for those of you with Minatures Handbook), the WarMage. Those two specializations are basically devoted to acts of destruction. But you don't have to be a gibbering pyromaniac to use those classes.
darkthought 10-21-04, 05:44 PM	Yes, I see Karrnath necromancers to be very civilized. Not to mention, Karrnath is very helpful to necromancers, due to the fact that they still collected the dead for their undead armies, just more quietly now. If you're a noble or a member of the Blood of Vol, I can see petitioning the higher ups to gain a corpse or two. I'm sure you could go to House Jorasco and ask for any unclaimed dead for "research." And I'm sure that the various universities in Eberron get corpses for anatomy classes and such. Heck, OUR universities get cadavers for the same reasons. Just keep it quiet around those odd deathless worshiping elves and I don't see a problem. I'd suggest that if a player wants to be a good/neutral necromancer, he get the correct permits to aquire cadavers from sources such as the Sharn city morgue, university researchers, Blood of Vol church, and/or House Jorasco. As long as they get their corpses in a legit way, they'd have no problems from the secular authorities. Of course, trotting around your 4 skeletons and 2 zombies in public will get the attention of certain factions that abhor undead, such as the Silver Flame and the Deathwatch. As for how to describe the difference between sentient and non-sentient undead, it's rather simple. The non-sentient are people who were raised, but were not worthy of further advancement in the "sublime" state of undeath. Those were people who went adversaries and such. So my Karrnathi necro would raise the corpses of the Valenar elves as skeletons, and use them as shock troops. If a party member died and wished it, or a family member who wished it, they'd be raised as a sentient undead. Probably a Mummy or Vampire. But he'd have to know if the person wished to return as undead. If he didn't know, or knew they didn't want to, he'd let them die. (He's an arcane necromancer, not a divine one.) With the spell Disguise Self or Seeming, they can look like normal living people.
Neofish 10-21-04, 05:47 PM	That exactly how I see them Darkthought.
darkthought 10-21-04, 05:56 PM	That exactly how I see them Darkthought. Thanks. I've been thinking for quite a while on the Karrnathi Necromancers. Now if I could get someone ELSE to DM an Eberron game, I wouldn't have to keep using him as a NPC. But I did manage to get my players in the service of him. Now to trot their butts down into Talenta and rumble with some elves.
malisteen 10-21-04, 06:18 PM	that creating undead creatures IS illegal now, even in Kaarnath, as it was outlawed by the treaty that ended the Last War. While Kaarnath does secretly sanction some such activities, they would not support a Kaarnathi necromancer blatantly walking around and animating undead creatures, especially in other nations. If they were at all lenient in such matters, the other nations could view them as violating the treaty, which would have severe negative political reprocussions for the nation of Kaarnath. As such, a Kaarnathi necromancer should focus on spells that do not actually create undead in most situations. Furthermore, undead they control should be kept out of sight as much as possible. Furthermore, undead creatures they work with should never be from pillaged graves, especially in other nations. When you can or must animate the dead, either destroy the servents when you are done with them, or find a place to hide them. But that's just Kaarnathi, Blood of Vol is a different matter. They worship, respect, and revere undead, but the degree of respect depends on the type of creature. Mindless undead are obviously not transcendant. Good clerics would view them as holy objects to be used with respect, while evil clerics would see them as slaves that their power and position within the cult make them entitled to. Either way, they are things rather then creatures. Intelligent undead that do not maintain awareness of their life before death should be respected as holy, but they fall sadly short of the ideal transcendant state reserved for the most holy individuals. Where mindless undead are treated as holy objects, semi-intelligent undead should be treated as holy animals. They should be used and displayed where appropriate, but in some cases a cleric may deem that an individual needs to be put down. Evil clerics would also view them as holy animals, but holy animals for them to use to spread undeath or unleash upon the enemies of the cult. Intelligent undead that remain mostly aware of their previous lives; liches, vampires, mummies, and other templated undead, are the transcendant souls to be respected, adored, obeyed, and even worshiped, in the hope that the aspirant may one day take his or her place among their ranks. Or at least that's how I see it. Again, the Blood of Vol understands that the rest of Khorvaire does not (yet) share their beliefs, and hide their practices to keep from bringing down law enforcement or the ill will of the masses. But where a necromancer who's true loyalties are to Kaarnath is likely to refrain from the use or creation of undead that may reflect poorly on his nation or would go against the laws and orders of his King, a Blood of Vol necromancer would continue to do such things in secret, viewing their work as the secret practice of an somewhat oppressed religion.
darkthought 10-21-04, 06:39 PM	that creating undead creatures IS illegal now, even in Kaarnath, as it was outlawed by the treaty that ended the Last War. While Kaarnath does secretly sanction some such activities, they would not support a Kaarnathi necromancer blatantly walking around and animating undead creatures, especially in other nations. If they were at all lenient in such matters, the other nations could view them as violating the treaty, which would have severe negative political reprocussions for the nation of Kaarnath. As such, a Kaarnathi necromancer should focus on spells that do not actually create undead in most situations. Furthermore, undead they control should be kept out of sight as much as possible. Furthermore, undead creatures they work with should never be from pillaged graves, especially in other nations. When you can or must animate the dead, either destroy the servents when you are done with them, or find a place to hide them. But that's just Kaarnathi, Blood of Vol is a different matter. They worship, respect, and revere undead, but the degree of respect depends on the type of creature. Mindless undead are obviously not transcendant. Good clerics would view them as holy objects to be used with respect, while evil clerics would see them as slaves that their power and position within the cult make them entitled to. Either way, they are things rather then creatures. Intelligent undead that do not maintain awareness of their life before death should be respected as holy, but they fall sadly short of the ideal transcendant state reserved for the most holy individuals. Where mindless undead are treated as holy objects, semi-intelligent undead should be treated as holy animals. They should be used and displayed where appropriate, but in some cases a cleric may deem that an individual needs to be put down. Evil clerics would also view them as holy animals, but holy animals for them to use to spread undeath or unleash upon the enemies of the cult. Intelligent undead that remain mostly aware of their previous lives; liches, vampires, mummies, and other templated undead, are the transcendant souls to be respected, adored, obeyed, and even worshiped, in the hope that the aspirant may one day take his or her place among their ranks. Or at least that's how I see it. Again, the Blood of Vol understands that the rest of Khorvaire does not (yet) share their beliefs, and hide their practices to keep from bringing down law enforcement or the ill will of the masses. But where a necromancer who's true loyalties are to Kaarnath is likely to refrain from the use or creation of undead that may reflect poorly on his nation or would go against the laws and orders of his King, a Blood of Vol necromancer would continue to do such things in secret, viewing their work as the secret practice of an somewhat oppressed religion. How exactly is this different than the elven deathless? And please refer me to the page/post that states that creating undead is banned in the Thronehold Accords. I couldn't seem to find it.
Setherial 10-22-04, 02:59 AM	This turned out to be a very intersting conversation about necromancy guys, some very usefull stuff here !! I think we can agree that the opinion of people about undead will largly depend on how they view their dead. A group that views dead bodies as empty shells will indeed be less troubled by those bodies being used again by necromancers for some hopefully noble cause then those who beleive the dead should never be disturbed. Ofcourse it will still be very hard for people to see someone they knew as part of an undead workforce no matter what their beliefs, this is a good reason to keep such undead workforces isolated form the rest of the population. fizzbang : Interesting idea about stages of undead, it being a lie or not it does sound believable that one who just overcame death be confused and different. Regaining once former individuality might indeed take centuries. But what is a few years when you have eternal unlife :) I'll use this idea in my campains from now on, it's briliant :) cheers David
darkthought 10-22-04, 03:20 AM	This turned out to be a very intersting conversation about necromancy guys, some very usefull stuff here !! I think we can agree that the opinion of people about undead will largly depend on how they view their dead. A group that views dead bodies as empty shells will indeed be less troubled by those bodies being used again by necromancers for some hopefully noble cause then those who beleive the dead should never be disturbed. Ofcourse it will still be very hard for people to see someone they knew as part of an undead workforce no matter what their beliefs, this is a good reason to keep such undead workforces isolated form the rest of the population. fizzbang : Interesting idea about stages of undead, it being a lie or not it does sound believable that one who just overcame death be confused and different. Regaining once former individuality might indeed take centuries. But what is a few years when you have eternal unlife :) I'll use this idea in my campains from now on, it's briliant :) cheers David For a general workforce, I'd pick skeletons. They're not recognizable, unless one had a gimpy leg that everybody knew about. Karrnath usually used the undead outside or on the borders of the country. The interior is still guarded by flesh-and-blood (and maybe Warforged) soldiers.
Ectoplasmoid 10-22-04, 07:02 AM	Interesting discussion...but I have one question: Can skeletons wear armor? I see that they can use shields and martial weapons if they were warriors, but I don't see anything about armor proficiencies. If your skeletons happpened to be proficient in armor, you could wrap them in cloth to muffle bony clattering, dress them up in full plate and pretend they're alive-useful in a town. The treaty of Thronehold banned undead creation two years ago, but I'm sure there are a lot of fresh necromancer graduates of arcane "colleges" in Karrnath that are pretty ticked their "major" is illegal.
darkthought 10-23-04, 12:38 AM	Interesting discussion...but I have one question: Can skeletons wear armor? I see that they can use shields and martial weapons if they were warriors, but I don't see anything about armor proficiencies. If your skeletons happpened to be proficient in armor, you could wrap them in cloth to muffle bony clattering, dress them up in full plate and pretend they're alive-useful in a town. The treaty of Thronehold banned undead creation two years ago, but I'm sure there are a lot of fresh necromancer graduates of arcane "colleges" in Karrnath that are pretty ticked their "major" is illegal. The Karrnath elite skels and zombies wear armor... but that just may be a special case. As for the banning of undead, could I have a page number please? I still can't find it. All I remember is that it bans the creation of more warforged.
talmor 10-23-04, 01:14 PM	I have a hard time seeing Necromacy as ever being "good." Even good-alligned necromancers, I would imagine, would rarely animate the dead. Most of them would focus on spells like "speak with dead" and such, in order to be their voice in the world. Undeath is just a creepy, disturbing unnatural act. I mean, if the war forged--who all can talk, and think, and feel, and can have a shop just down the street from yours where they sell the most delightful little scarves you've EVER seen--face widespread discrimation and in some places are viewed as property of the state, I can't imagine a shambling zombie being viewed as anything but evil by the general populace. Especially with those darn Silver Flame fellas running around telling everyone so. These guys hunted the lyncanthropes almost to exitinction. I don't think they'll be to happy about someones dead grandma being used as heavy labor. You only need one noble, true paladin (Flame or Host) to show up, proclaim his goodness (rescue kittens, save the missing children, etc.), then point in the direction of a zombie and make it crumble to show that the gods don't like the undead. As for intelligent undead...okay, the lich might be able to get by, but the vampire? He feeds on the blood of the living. He wants to eat you. Pretty much by definition, he's an enemy to you and your kind. In the bulk of Khorvaire, evil and neutral necromancers must work in absolute secrecy (even Karrnath, where they have royal support), while the good ones I see working as more "CSI" kinda guys.
DarvinKnoble 10-23-04, 01:20 PM	Ok, Here is my spin on a good Necro. Wandering monster/invading goblins/etc come to attack your town. Wizard steps up and with the uterance of a few mystic words, summons forth the village people's ancestors to defend them in their time of need. Of course the undead are released from the spell after the battle and rest again.
Gurv 10-23-04, 01:41 PM	Ok, Here is my spin on a good Necro. Wandering monster/invading goblins/etc come to attack your town. Wizard steps up and with the uterance of a few mystic words, summons forth the village people's ancestors to defend them in their time of need. Of course the undead are released from the spell after the battle and rest again. Ok, here is my spin on an good evil cleric. Wandering monster/invading goblins/etc come to attack your town. Cleric steps up and with the utterance of a few mystic words, casts blasphemy, killing, paralyzing, and weakening them in the town's time of need. Of course, the cleric apologizes to the village people for saying a bad word.
darkthought 10-23-04, 09:48 PM	I have a hard time seeing Necromacy as ever being "good." Even good-alligned necromancers, I would imagine, would rarely animate the dead. Most of them would focus on spells like "speak with dead" and such, in order to be their voice in the world. Undeath is just a creepy, disturbing unnatural act. I mean, if the war forged--who all can talk, and think, and feel, and can have a shop just down the street from yours where they sell the most delightful little scarves you've EVER seen--face widespread discrimation and in some places are viewed as property of the state, I can't imagine a shambling zombie being viewed as anything but evil by the general populace. I'd think a good necromancer would view himself as a keeper of the gateway to the next world or Dolurrh. Remember that the good people who worship Vol view undeath as a state of divinity. In Karrnath at least, it might get a few looks, but nobody would call the guard. The guard probably fought with undead on their side during The Last War. Especially with those darn Silver Flame fellas running around telling everyone so. These guys hunted the lyncanthropes almost to exitinction. I don't think they'll be to happy about someones dead grandma being used as heavy labor. You only need one noble, true paladin (Flame or Host) to show up, proclaim his goodness (rescue kittens, save the missing children, etc.), then point in the direction of a zombie and make it crumble to show that the gods don't like the undead. Hmm... magewright walks up, points a stick at a paladin, and the paladin is engulfed in an inferno, proving that the gods don't like paladins. It goes both ways. I frankly don't trust paladins at all. Too blind to the realities of the world. Nothing is that black and white. And that amulet of Desecration might give him problems with making it crumble. (btw, that paladin would have to be hella high level to crumble anything. They turn lower than clerics.) A good necromancer wouldn't use someone's grandma for heavy labor. Grandma's old bones would be too frail anyways. They'd get the bodies of unknowns, dead prisoners, or unwanted corpses and make them into a form less offending, such as a skeleton. No smell, just bones. As for intelligent undead...okay, the lich might be able to get by, but the vampire? He feeds on the blood of the living. He wants to eat you. Pretty much by definition, he's an enemy to you and your kind. Odd, we feed on the flesh of the living. Not much difference. Unless I missed it in the MM, a vampire doesn't need to feed every day, nor must it be a humanoid/sentient being. In the bulk of Khorvaire, evil and neutral necromancers must work in absolute secrecy (even Karrnath, where they have royal support), while the good ones I see working as more "CSI" kinda guys. I can see evil necromancers working in secrecy, but then, most evil does unless it wants to call down the wrath of self-proclaimed do-gooders.
ronyon 10-23-04, 11:46 PM	I dont have the book yet, but I keep woundering about this emphasis on using the bones of sentients. For war, a embalmbed or skeltal bear would probaly do as well as a commeners bones. The undead horse drawn carrige could be one of the fastest forms of transport, due to the darkvision and unending endurance of the undead.Undead dogs make great all around labor/combatants.Sure a pair of hands would be nice, but what of monkeys and such? Too exotic? Maybe a Racoon would do.I imagine zombi birds as the carriers of grappling hooks, and rattle snakes as a camp alarm system. Even herd herbivors like cows and sheep could serve as fodder as walking fire bombs and poisen delivery systems. Beast of all, no reasonable person is going to care about what you do to a already dead animal, as long as it dont stink more than it did in life. Also remember that the more that it benifits the public at large, the more the public will acept necromancy. The necromancy students who use skeletal minions to clear land and bring in crops (working at night, to avoid scrutiny) Will be more popular than the guard recruit who is hassaling him about his strange glassy eyed dog. :D
talmor 10-25-04, 08:02 PM	Hmm... magewright walks up, points a stick at a paladin, and the paladin is engulfed in an inferno, proving that the gods don't like paladins. Okay, but a magewright uses arcane magic, which is clearly disctinct and seperate from divine magic. Which pretty much everyone in the world knows about. Now, one could say that a high level cleric of the Dark Six walks up and blasts the Paladin away with unholy fire...or whatever evil clerics through around. Maybe just hits 'im real hard with a mace. At best that proves that the Dark Six are more powerful than the Silver Flame, or that THIS cleric of the Dark Six was more powerful that THAT Paladin of the Silver Flame...but it doesn't change the fact that the gods that DON'T want to rib the flesh off of you don't like the undead. Odd, we feed on the flesh of the living. Not much difference. Unless I missed it in the MM, a vampire doesn't need to feed every day, nor must it be a humanoid/sentient being. Okay, I can see humans part of a soceity where vamiprism is accepted feeling that way about the undead--sort of like Palladiums "Vampire Kingdoms." But nowhere in Eberron does that occur. So, is it possible..yes? But, personally I would think the average person would feel horrified and disgusted at the monster and wish to see it destroyed. These guys aren't the deathless--who are freaky and scary in their own right--but undead. Horrible abominations (not according to the MM, I know) ripped from the afterlife and forced to mindlessly devour the living/be slaves/feed on the blood of the living. Can a good necromancer exist? Sure. Can he raise the dead? Maybe--like others have pointed out, the powerful cleric who raises the dead to save the town, and then returns them to their rest makes sense. But can a good necromancer walk around with his zombie/skeletal servants and expect everyone to be "cool" with that...I just have a hard time seeing it.
St23aM 10-25-04, 09:41 PM	Wow haven’t checked for responses yet, been busy. Thanks for all the great comments. I thought I should expound on the character in my game. He is an upcoming professor at Morgrave University in his sabbatical/journeyman stage. He is a Khoravar (half/elf) Necromancer with an aberrant dragonmark (which is very hidden and nearly everyone has no clue) He is a good character he just has some genetic issues if you get my drift. As far as how he fits into society. To start with he lives in Sharn which has to be one of the most excepting of all places in Khorvaire. Also as far as undead who follow him around he dresses them head to toe in Shei Muslim women like gowns and adorns them with perfume. If asked he simply says that they are his servants and that is it. He however if confronted with the fact he is a necromancer, will engage the person in a philosophical debate/dissertation in order to explain to the person his point of view. One way I have thought of that he can explain things is the following. 1.) Were not entirely sure what happens after death. Also we are not entirely sure that souls actually do exist. Even if they did and perhaps they do there is no way to tell wither a raised undead has any soul or spirit in them let alone the soul of the person that formally inhabited the body. It is much more likely that magic is imbued into the body animating it with some sort of magical sentience that has nothing to do with its former owner if you will. You can take this argument much further if like. 2.) Undeath is natural. That’s right it’s natural. Take for instance the last time that Dolurrh become conterminous with our own plane. If they do not understand the planes he explains as much as he can or just simply say take the last time it was recorded in history that the dead came back to life. He says were there not undead walking in the streets reported not just simply dead come back to life and now fully alive but, dead that just got up and walked with a magical sentience that was no more intelligent than to propel it forward towards any living thing and try to consume it? Or perhaps the same sort of things happens when Mabar is coterminous? Negative energy at least increases. Also are there not areas in the world where these sorts of creatures just simply seem to pop up? This may be a weak argument sure but, its there none the less. 3.) He refers back to Karrnath, and explains that its just a different sort of culture. Some just see the body after death as a useless shell that now has no purpose. To imbue it with magic and animate it is simply finding a use for it. After you die there is no need for your body nor a connection with it. When the resurrection argument (which remembers resurrection is rare in this world some people may not have even heard of it) is brought up he simply responds with "Look... you see the body is nothing more than a focus, a spell component, there is no actual connection there. It is simply a way for magic to identify the soul in Dolrrah you are looking for. I believe there are probably a lot of other arguments you could add to this. Either way I think necros in this world if they are careful and try not to be too showy are looked at no differently than someone with a alternate life style/ or happens to be clearly strongly liberal is look at by a staunch far right conservative here. *Caution* I mean no offense by this to anyone if you have a problem with my statement its probably because you are putting waaay to much into what I am saying and making an assumption as to what side I am taking there, which I am taking none nor will I expound upon the subject. I realize already this is a statement that is a bit out of a proportion and im making a comparison between someone who digs up corpses and then re-animates them with a Liberal or someone with a Alternate Lifestyle ... I am making this statement full well knowing that it does not really apply and its an exaggeration. I am simply just trying to say they would be accepted in some circles, tolerated in others, and seen with udder contempt in a few, and others would make attempts to capture them and burn them at the stake in others. However if the charater can rationalize it and all other actions point to good, then in some situations most people will probably either not have a problem with him or simply tolerate him. Feel free to criticize my ideas no one can be a bigger critique of me than my self so I really don’t mind. :D If you would like to know more about the charater I would be pleased to supply you with more information.
darkthought 10-25-04, 10:04 PM	Okay, but a magewright uses arcane magic, which is clearly disctinct and seperate from divine magic. Which pretty much everyone in the world knows about. Now, one could say that a high level cleric of the Dark Six walks up and blasts the Paladin away with unholy fire...or whatever evil clerics through around. Maybe just hits 'im real hard with a mace. At best that proves that the Dark Six are more powerful than the Silver Flame, or that THIS cleric of the Dark Six was more powerful that THAT Paladin of the Silver Flame...but it doesn't change the fact that the gods that DON'T want to rib the flesh off of you don't like the undead. I could see Aureon as being indifferent. The Shadow of the Dark Six is his fault anyways. Okay, I can see humans part of a soceity where vamiprism is accepted feeling that way about the undead--sort of like Palladiums "Vampire Kingdoms." But nowhere in Eberron does that occur. So, is it possible..yes? But, personally I would think the average person would feel horrified and disgusted at the monster and wish to see it destroyed. Karrnath it would be looked at with some trepidation, but accepted if you don't go feeding on every other person. The Blood of Vol is very strong in Karrnath, and worshipers would see a vampire as a divine being, such as an angel or archon. He wouldn't have to worry about feeding, because the Blood of Vol asks for blood donations from it's members. Plus, living in Atur would make it easier, because that city is most active at night anyways. Hell, the head cleric of the Blood of Vol is a mummy, and I'm pretty sure that he doesn't hide that fact. Also remember that this is a setting where sentient elementals are summoned and then bound against their will to power various airships and other items. These guys aren't the deathless--who are freaky and scary in their own right--but undead. Horrible abominations (not according to the MM, I know) ripped from the afterlife and forced to mindlessly devour the living/be slaves/feed on the blood of the living. I don't see how you can be ripped from the afterlife if you become undead willingly. Good necromancers would ask. As for mindless undead, consider it corporal punishment, which Karrnath still uses. Murder someone in cold blood? Congratulations, you've won a one way ticket to eternal service in the Karrnath army. Your new home is Fort Zombie. Don't worry about the smell. As for raising people who just attacked you, make them a skeleton and nobody will be able to tell who they were. Add to the fact that it's pretty much known that adventurers kill for a living, and it would turn heads, but not be overtly illegal in SOME places. My necromancers give Thrane a wiiiide berth. Animals would make people go "ICK!" but not call the local Silver Flame paladin. I'd personally have a skeletal dire bear than a human anyways. Remember that the paladins and clerics have to follow the Code of Galifar too, which SHOULD have a paragraph about destruction of personal property. If the local paladin screams, "GAH! DIE NECROMANCER WHO FOLLOWS AUREON!" and runs at him sword drawn, he can be charged to the full extent of the law. If that paladin is killed, the necromancer can get off by a plea of self defense. Can a good necromancer exist? Sure. Can he raise the dead? Maybe--like others have pointed out, the powerful cleric who raises the dead to save the town, and then returns them to their rest makes sense. But can a good necromancer walk around with his zombie/skeletal servants and expect everyone to be "cool" with that...I just have a hard time seeing it. Again, I covered this above. It depends on where you are. I could see Karrnath with it being okay, Talenta and Mror Holds kinda iffy, but unless they do something bad not a capital offense. Mainly due to the alliance between Karrnath and those countries. Droam, no problem. Darguun, not much of a problem as long as none of your undead are goblinoid. Aundair, maybe if you're doing it for "research" for the arcane congress. Shadow Marches, bad bad. Druids hate undead. Breland okay if the necromancer doesn't break any laws, stays away from the zealots, and pays off the officals. Valenar, maybe okay if you can explain that you've called back a spirit of your ancestors by summoning them into an expired mortal coil. Very very iffy. Have some good ranks in diplomacy and bluff if you're going to try to pull that. ;) I could see a few warforged necromancers in the mournland to help the LoB.
St23aM 10-25-04, 10:07 PM	Also keep in mind... no one cares if your undead servant is clearly a goblin. Goblins might care sure but, for now they dont rule this world and when your in there area simply dismiss the creature. I see it as unless the law can prove where you got them bones then they cant do a thing. Sharn seems to opperate on the innocent untill proven guilty clause. For all the watch knows they could be the bones of your great grandfather and you are the only living relative. Now if a complaint was made hey thats my mother you go in your closet then im sure there would either be a witch burning or at the vary least a fairly one sided trial. However if say the person were noblity and the person pressing charges were a working class magewright or middle class shop owner then well... nobles when every time. ;)
darkthought 10-26-04, 05:44 PM	The remnants of the five kingdoms run on the Galifar Code system, which runs on an innocent until proven guilty method. Karrnath's internal Code of Kaius is more strict, but still essentially the Galifar Code. The non-Galifar empire countries (Droam, Darguun, evil elves) may not run on the system. An ogre skeleton would be pretty wicked when you think about it. :)
St23aM 10-26-04, 07:07 PM	So what does everyone else think? What are some some other ways a charater may rationalize or have a philosphy that explains Necromancy and how they can fit into a "Normal Soceity". I think this should have been included in libris mortis and perhaps it was, I havnt bought it yet. However if its not keith would you be willing to do a Dragonshards article about it?
fizzbang 10-26-04, 08:40 PM	So what does everyone else think? What are some some other ways a charater may rationalize or have a philosphy that explains Necromancy and how they can fit into a "Normal Soceity". I think this should have been included in libris mortis and perhaps it was, I havnt bought it yet. However if its not keith would you be willing to do a Dragonshards article about it? Well, when you get right down to it, the average person in most places is just going to be a bit uncomfortable with dealing with the dead. The only exceptions I can really think of are believers in the Blood of Vol (popular in Karnath), followers of the Undying Court (not really "necromancy" most are thinking of), or areas with widespread worship of the Keeper (or the Dark Six). Now, if you're going with necromancy that isn't necessarily about animating the dead, but just dealing with death, then Children of Winter could also work for you. They'd be more interested in enforcing death and the cycle, rather than "perverting the cycle" with undeath, but it might be worth looking into.