New(?) #13 Connection [Archive] - Wizards Community

New(?) #13 Connection [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AvonRekaes
08-31-04, 04:44 AM There are thirteen types of true dragons in eberron.

5 chromatic
5 metalic
3 progenitor

This is if you don't count gem and planar dragons, and Keith has already said that these weren't considered when making the world.

If this has been posted before, my apologies. I'm not about to search for the number 13 on these boards, as I'd have to wade through probably a thousand posts.
Bubba333
08-31-04, 05:39 AM Where are these "progenitor dragons"?
MarkB
08-31-04, 05:51 AM Where are these "progenitor dragons"?
Above, Below and Between. They're known, respectively, as Syberis, Khyber and Eberron.
AvonRekaes
08-31-04, 07:52 AM Well now that there is a new link established, I think we can start beating it to philisophical death.

Of the previous groups of 13, only 12 remain/are functional. (Dal Quor is off it's orbit, the Mark of Death's only remaining mark is inactive on an undead half-dragon, the 13th month has been ousted from the calender, the 13th moon is gone)

Might this mean that one type of dragon is going to be extinct?

Perhaps, as the legends go, Siberys sacrificed itself, shattering into pieces that form the Ring, so Siberys would be the 13th "inactive" dragon.

But Siberys Marks and the general power of the siberys dragonshards would lend credence that Siberys was merely transformed and not destroyed.

Maybe one of the mortal dragon types will become extinct? If so, which one? I think it would be the Gold dragons, as their only representative among the Sovereigns/Dark Six is the Keeper, who is skeletal. (If it even is a gold).

Who knows!
Darrek
08-31-04, 09:51 AM Curses!
I had noticed this possibility a while ago and been developing the concept slowly, waiting for the boards to upgrade. And then I'm asleep when it happens and someone posts first!

Kudos!

Regardless, I think I've spotted the mysterious 13th/vanish as well.
The Sovereign Host each have a form that corresponds to one of the 10 primary dragon types. All 10 that is, except Gold...
And if we look over in the Dark Six, we happen to find that someone (books at home, dammit!) happens to have the form of a skeletal dragon...
I'm still working on how to keep the Dark Sixer with a Shadow Dragon form from throwing this theory out of whack, but otherwise, there you have it!
ieattrollsforbreakfast
08-31-04, 04:12 PM While it does seem like a good idea, theres something about it that doesnt sit well with me.
The three fabled progenitor wyrms Siberys, Khyber and Eberron were the three greatest of the progenitor wyrms, not the only ones. These three are individuals, and there is no indication of any different types of progenitor wyrms. Putting types of dragon (chromatic, metallic) against individuals doesnt seem right.
Darrek
08-31-04, 05:46 PM While it does seem like a good idea, theres something about it that doesnt sit well with me.
The three fabled progenitor wyrms Siberys, Khyber and Eberron were the three greatest of the progenitor wyrms, not the only ones. These three are individuals, and there is no indication of any different types of progenitor wyrms. Putting types of dragon (chromatic, metallic) against individuals doesnt seem right.
Here's the way I'm developing it: Siberys, Dol Dorn, Kol Korran et al were the first 13 dragons. All of them progenitors, so powerful and primeval that they didn't have 'types'. They simply WERE.
By whatever process, our favourite 3 got busted up into the Dragons Above, Below, and Between. The other 10 were kinda as a loss until Siberys called forth the next generation of dragons. As the new mortal beings developed their own identities, so too did the remaining 10 become associated with specific species of dragon. Somewhere along the line, The Keeper (twin of Kol Korran) was corrupted and became part of the Dark Six, changing his aspect from Gold to Skeletal.
I also figured out my Shadow Dragon problem. It's The Shadow, literally the shadow of Aureon. Created after our original 13 and not related.
Hmm... Missing dragonmark = Death... Corrupted skeletal dragon = Death... I'm convincing myself here!
JohnSnow
08-31-04, 05:54 PM Let's see...dragons are often associated with gods in Eberron...

5 chromatic
1. Black - Olladra
2. Blue - Aureon
3. Green - Balinor
4. Red - Dol Arrah
5. White - Kol Korran

5 Metallic
1. Brass - Onatar
2. Bronze - Arawai
3. Copper - Boldrei
4. Gold - ???
5. Silver - Dol Dorn

Plus Khyber, Eberron, and Siberys

Five of the Dark Six gods and their associated "lesser" dragons:

The Devourer - Dragon Turtle
The Fury - snakelike wyrm of Khyber
The Keeper - Skeletal dragon - dracolich
The Mockery - Half-fiend Red Dragon
The Shadow - Shadow Dragon
The Traveler - No dragon form...no connection to the other deities in the pantheon

So if you remove the Traveler, and go back to the time before the Devourer's attack on his sister Arawai... the original pantheon appears to have been:

1. Arawai - Sister of Balinor and the Devourer
2. Aureon - Brother of Onatar, Husband of Boldrei
3. Balinor - Brother of Arawai and The Devourer
4. Boldrei - Aureon's wife
5. Dol Arrah - Sister of Dol Dorn and the Mockery
6. Dol Dorn - Brother of Dol Arrah and the Mockery
7. Kol Korran - Son of Olladra and Onatar, Twin of the Keeper
8. Olladra - Wife of Onatar, Mother of Kol Korran & the Keeper
9. Onatar - Husband of Olladra, Father of Kol Korran & the Keeper
10. The Devourer - Brother of Balinor and Arawai
11. The Keeper - Twin Brother of Kol Korran, Son of Olladra and Onatar
12. The Mockery - Brother of Dol Dorn and Dol Arrah
13. The Shadow - the literal shadow of Aureon

Familiar number no?

Interestingly, associating these 13 gods with the Dragonmarks is pretty easy. The gods, their spheres of influence, and my best guess at the associated dragonmark:

1. Arawai - fertility, plant life, abundance - Mark of Healing
2. Aureon - Law and Knowledge - Mark of Scribing
3. Balinor - Beasts and the hunt - Mark of Handling
4. Boldrei - Community and Hearth - Mark of Warding
5. Dol Arrah - Honorable combat and sacrifice and light - Mark of Detection
6. Dol Dorn - war - Mark of Sentinel
7. Kol Korran - Trade & wealth - Mark of Passage
8. Olladra - Feast and good fortune - Mark of Hospitality
9. Onatar - Artifice and the forge - Mark of Making
10. The Devourer - maelstroms, destructive nature - Mark of Storm
11. The Keeper - Death & Decay - Mark of Death
12. The Mockery - Treachery - Mark of Finding
13. The Shadow - dark magic - Mark of Shadow

I'm not entirely happy with all these associations, but several of them are no-brainers. Oddly, this means that the Fury and the Traveler are outside the list.

Any thoughts?
Magagumo
08-31-04, 06:20 PM Hmm.. Fang Dragon for the Fury?
Bubba333
08-31-04, 09:28 PM Above, Below and Between. They're known, respectively, as Syberis, Khyber and Eberron.

Ah! I didn't think of them as actual dragons, but more of iconic representations.
Dex The King
08-31-04, 09:49 PM Originally posted by Magagumo
Fang Dragon for the Fury?I suppose that could work, but how snakelike are fang dragons? I have the Draconomicon right here, and they're not really all that snakelike. I think I'm going to ask Keith . . .
LewisLlynn
09-01-04, 12:08 PM Okay, to organize this just for myself, let's list all the thirteens:

Dragonmarks (Death is lost)

Moons (one is lost)

Nations (Cyre is destroyed)

Planes (Dal Quor is remote)

Now, there may be a dragon/gods connection. JohnSnow's explanation seems to be a very good one, except this: why are the traveler and the fury excluded??? There are 15 with them, 13 without them. None of the other 13s have others outside of the 13. I suppose the Traveler is excluded easily enough, but the Fury is the wrench in the works.

WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY?????? I don't get it? What does it all mean???????!!!!!!!
Darrek
09-01-04, 01:30 PM WHY WHY WHY WHY?????? I don't get it? What does it all mean???????!!!!!!!

Perhaps it means nothing. Perhaps 13 is not the magical number it appears to be.

Consider:

13 dragonmarks neglects abberant dragonmarks.

13 moons is all we know of. Moon number 13 disappeared aeons ago. Maybe there were more even further in the distant past. And what about the Ring of Siberys? That's another celestial body similar to a moon. Each shard could perhaps be considered an individual moon.

13 countries always felt like a coincidence to me. This configuration has only existed for 2 years. 5 nations before. Possibly more in the future. (Meta-game, Hellcow has said far more contries were once planned. Maybe they got the chop for space, maybe they got the chop to fit the rule of 13).

13 planes again are only what we know of. The daelkyr make a habit of destroying worlds, Eberron just being one. Parallel prime worlds, or even planes with orbits so infathomably long they've never come out of being remote may exist.
Dex The King
09-01-04, 02:07 PM I highly, highly doubt that there will ever be more moons and more planes, although it remains a possibility.

And as for 13 dragonmarks neglecting aberrant dragonmarks, look at it this way:

There are 13 dragonmarks that manifest in progressions of least, lesser, and greater.

There are also 13 Siberys marks that manifest independently of the least, lesser, and greater marks with similar powers.

Finally, there are 13 aberrant dragonmarks.

Here's my theory about why.

There are 13 gods that are blood related (not counting the Shadow or the Traveler, who aren't).

There are 13 planes, one for each moon. The thirteenth moon disappeared when its plane (Dal Quor) was thrown off orbit. Its possible that the moons are the planes.

There are 13 nations. Droaam, in my opinion, isn't unified enough to be a nation, and the thirteenth is destroyed Cyre.

Last, there are 13 dragonmarks for each of the three primordial wyrms, Siberys, Eberron, and Khyber. There are marks of Siberys, Keith has suggested that the aberrant marks have a connection to Khyber, and the least, lesser, and greater marks are those for Eberron.

Due to the dragonmarks, especially being tied as they are to the primordial wyrms, gods (which are described as dragons), and the fact that Eberron is a world made from dragons, I theorize that the number thirteen is somehow related to the grand draconic Prophecy.

Yes, that's right, the meaning of life in Eberron isn't 42, it's 13.

Now, what exactly 13 means, I haven't a clue. Keith wouldn't tell me, and it has been suggested that it's just a "Baker's Dozen." I for one hope that it's more than that.
Darrek
09-01-04, 10:13 PM Now, what exactly 13 means, I haven't a clue. Keith wouldn't tell me, and it has been suggested that it's just a "Baker's Dozen." I for one hope that it's more than that.
Sorry Dex, but I for one hope it isn't. There's nothing I like more than a red herring, particularly one as convoluted as the loose 13 association that keeps coming up.
My players have honestly stopped looking for the conspiracies behind my adventures simply because I will lead them down totally incorrect paths. They'll burst into the den of evil expecting Vol and the Emerald Claw, and instead be facing a slew of Rakshasa. I never plant false information; I just help them put the pieces together by drawing attention to the wrong stuff. When they realize they've duped themselves (with my help), it gives me goosebumps!
The 13 is the same. I've been thinking aloud here on possible links, and simultaneously pointing out why the links are not valid. Ultimately I'm sure the answer to the Baker's Dozen rule will always be "what do YOU think?".
Masterful_Norg
09-01-04, 11:12 PM Numerologically speaking the number 13 isn't as special as say 3, 6, 7, 9, 12 or 15. Perhaps the moons were once 13 in number because when you simplify 13 you get 4 (the number of the seasons). The factorial of 13 is 6,227,020,800 if that's any help to you people who know what the heck I'm talking about.

You could check this (http://halexandria.org/dward116.htm) out for inspiration in your quest for explaining the mysterious baker's dozen. Perhaps this (http://halexandria.org/dward115.htm) will help you as well.
Dex The King
09-01-04, 11:34 PM I see what you mean, Narrek, and I agree with you when you say that it will probably always be a curiosity to be pondered or discredited. After all, if there were a specific answer, there certainly wouldn't be this much debate. If everyone saw Oswald shoot Kennedy in plain sight, there'd be no arguement.

But I also disagree with you. If all the herring you caught in the lake were red, then one tends to assume that all the herring in the lake are red. If all leads are false, detective work isn't worth the effort. And that's no fun.
Darrek
09-02-04, 10:54 AM I see what you mean, Narrek, and I agree with you when you say that it will probably always be a curiosity to be pondered or discredited. After all, if there were a specific answer, there certainly wouldn't be this much debate. If everyone saw Oswald shoot Kennedy in plain sight, there'd be no arguement.

But I also disagree with you. If all the herring you caught in the lake were red, then one tends to assume that all the herring in the lake are red. If all leads are false, detective work isn't worth the effort. And that's no fun.

Thanks Dex, and I appreciate the advise. However I'm always very careful to put needed clues in place as well as the fake ones.

For instance, last week my PCs spent hours poring over the journal written 3 months before the victim's death, while he was exploring an old Daelkyr fortress in the Demon Wastes. They totally overlooked the shiny mithril ring he was wearing as a bracelet, picked up in Xendrick less than 2 weeks before his murder.
There was plenty of detailed information about each one available on my DM's notes, but when they focussed on the journal, I didn't draw their attention back to the ring.
LewisLlynn
09-02-04, 12:51 PM Whether the 13s are red herrings or not, I like to debate about what it really is.

I think for right now, I'll go with JohnSnow's explanation because it sort of works. And my brain is tired.
Dex The King
09-02-04, 02:19 PM I see Narrek, you're not actually misleading them or teaching them not to investigate. You're teaching them to be thorough and investigate every option.

I like that. I also like the mystery of the thirteen. What does it mean? No one knows. You might as well ask what caused the Mourning (which plenty of people have already asked).
Darrek
09-02-04, 03:37 PM I see Narrek,

??
The first time I thought it was a typo. Now I'm wondering if I should be calling you Nex?:)
Rajorke
09-03-04, 02:12 PM 12 planes 1 remote
12 moons 1 destroyed
12 dragonmarks 1 dead
12 nations 1 obliterated
hmmm... where to go next

12 classes...
12 races of mortals... (if you count the inspired)
yeah i know its a stretch but if you go looking for connections and conspiracies you'll find them whether there real or not that is the nature of paranoia and NOIR

maybe 12 is the important number and not thirteen maybe the dragons are responsible for the destruction of the thirteenth and that is their way of guiding the prophecy

the dragons did teach the giants the magic to stop the quori and in turn guiding the 13th plane to be remote and the 13th moon to be destroyed (possibly) the killed off the 13th dragonmark, maybe they where also responsible for the destruction of Cyre

12 not 13 and the dragons know it
Saurenda
09-03-04, 02:51 PM The twelve, a magical organization which rejected a former member who went mad.

Mordain the Fleshweaver. Does this mean that this counts as an example to the thirteen coincidence?
Saurenda
09-03-04, 02:55 PM 12 planes 1 remote
12 moons 1 destroyed
12 dragonmarks 1 dead
12 nations 1 obliterated
hmmm... where to go next

12 classes...
12 races of mortals... (if you count the inspired)
12 not 13 and the dragons know it

Does Siberysis count? I mean he was supposed to have died in the battle with Kyber and became the broken ring around Eberron. Doesn't that mean 12 dragons as well?

Is Siberysis defeat and the interference of Eberron the guidlines for all of this 13, then take away one ot make 12 prophecy?
Fevil
09-03-04, 03:08 PM On this topic I refer you to my post in the "Interfering with Prophecy Thread"

Link Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=298849)

Post #13....ironically...
atanhel
09-03-04, 04:04 PM i just found a major problem:
11!
not 12 or 13 but 11!
the constellations. somehow they should get to 13, there the dragon gods, but there only with 11. why?

i mean if it should be obviouse that 13 is da number the constellations would be the first thing to point that out ( look at history and horoscoops)!
so why not?
Saurenda
09-04-04, 01:03 PM If I had the draconimicon with I could check the true number of constellations by looking at the number of dragon gods listed in the dieties section.

Bahamut

Tiamant

Gyagax

Io Represents Father of Dragon kind
Yet not the creator of Siberyis, Kyhber and Eberron?

{Chatoic messenger of Io}

{Death oriented Dragon God}

Are the only ones I remember off hand. Anyone witht he Drraconomicon help us out with the exact nnumber and thier names please?

Darn my moving!
atanhel
09-04-04, 01:06 PM for all who want to check this... there also in the back of DotF (defenders of the faith)! if olny i could check!
damn my moving ;)
shemnon
09-05-04, 12:57 AM I think it is (or at least originated) as the Bakers Dozen. Started out as 13, but there's erally only room for 12. It's a greate literary device and makes for good expectation by readers and such in the future.

Dragonlance had the triad of good/evil/neutrality. Planescape has the rule of three. Since Eberron is "the same but different" they do have their own similar rule, call it the Bakers Dozen or 12+1.

(speculation) The Bakers Dozen Rule of Ebberon: anything directly realted to or influenced by the draconic prophecy relates to the 12+1 pattern. This includes the number of such mega-patterns (the pattern mega-pattern being #13). Such as the mortal or "free will" races native to Ebberon, if enumerated one could presume they are 12, with the nearly extinct Cuatals being #13. If this is true then we can conclude that the number of nations after the thronehold treaty is related ot the draconic prophecy, and hence the "last war" itself was related to the prophecy.

What's next in the prophecy? Who knows, but the chamber seems quite interested in the 12 nations. Are they there to observer, or to influence? And if to influence, to what end? The end of the 12 nations or to preserve them?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AvonRekaes 08-31-04, 04:44 AM	There are thirteen types of true dragons in eberron. 5 chromatic 5 metalic 3 progenitor This is if you don't count gem and planar dragons, and Keith has already said that these weren't considered when making the world. If this has been posted before, my apologies. I'm not about to search for the number 13 on these boards, as I'd have to wade through probably a thousand posts.
Bubba333 08-31-04, 05:39 AM	Where are these "progenitor dragons"?
MarkB 08-31-04, 05:51 AM	Where are these "progenitor dragons"? Above, Below and Between. They're known, respectively, as Syberis, Khyber and Eberron.
AvonRekaes 08-31-04, 07:52 AM	Well now that there is a new link established, I think we can start beating it to philisophical death. Of the previous groups of 13, only 12 remain/are functional. (Dal Quor is off it's orbit, the Mark of Death's only remaining mark is inactive on an undead half-dragon, the 13th month has been ousted from the calender, the 13th moon is gone) Might this mean that one type of dragon is going to be extinct? Perhaps, as the legends go, Siberys sacrificed itself, shattering into pieces that form the Ring, so Siberys would be the 13th "inactive" dragon. But Siberys Marks and the general power of the siberys dragonshards would lend credence that Siberys was merely transformed and not destroyed. Maybe one of the mortal dragon types will become extinct? If so, which one? I think it would be the Gold dragons, as their only representative among the Sovereigns/Dark Six is the Keeper, who is skeletal. (If it even is a gold). Who knows!
Darrek 08-31-04, 09:51 AM	Curses! I had noticed this possibility a while ago and been developing the concept slowly, waiting for the boards to upgrade. And then I'm asleep when it happens and someone posts first! Kudos! Regardless, I think I've spotted the mysterious 13th/vanish as well. The Sovereign Host each have a form that corresponds to one of the 10 primary dragon types. All 10 that is, except Gold... And if we look over in the Dark Six, we happen to find that someone (books at home, dammit!) happens to have the form of a skeletal dragon... I'm still working on how to keep the Dark Sixer with a Shadow Dragon form from throwing this theory out of whack, but otherwise, there you have it!
ieattrollsforbreakfast 08-31-04, 04:12 PM	While it does seem like a good idea, theres something about it that doesnt sit well with me. The three fabled progenitor wyrms Siberys, Khyber and Eberron were the three greatest of the progenitor wyrms, not the only ones. These three are individuals, and there is no indication of any different types of progenitor wyrms. Putting types of dragon (chromatic, metallic) against individuals doesnt seem right.
Darrek 08-31-04, 05:46 PM	While it does seem like a good idea, theres something about it that doesnt sit well with me. The three fabled progenitor wyrms Siberys, Khyber and Eberron were the three greatest of the progenitor wyrms, not the only ones. These three are individuals, and there is no indication of any different types of progenitor wyrms. Putting types of dragon (chromatic, metallic) against individuals doesnt seem right. Here's the way I'm developing it: Siberys, Dol Dorn, Kol Korran et al were the first 13 dragons. All of them progenitors, so powerful and primeval that they didn't have 'types'. They simply WERE. By whatever process, our favourite 3 got busted up into the Dragons Above, Below, and Between. The other 10 were kinda as a loss until Siberys called forth the next generation of dragons. As the new mortal beings developed their own identities, so too did the remaining 10 become associated with specific species of dragon. Somewhere along the line, The Keeper (twin of Kol Korran) was corrupted and became part of the Dark Six, changing his aspect from Gold to Skeletal. I also figured out my Shadow Dragon problem. It's The Shadow, literally the shadow of Aureon. Created after our original 13 and not related. Hmm... Missing dragonmark = Death... Corrupted skeletal dragon = Death... I'm convincing myself here!
JohnSnow 08-31-04, 05:54 PM	Let's see...dragons are often associated with gods in Eberron... 5 chromatic 1. Black - Olladra 2. Blue - Aureon 3. Green - Balinor 4. Red - Dol Arrah 5. White - Kol Korran 5 Metallic 1. Brass - Onatar 2. Bronze - Arawai 3. Copper - Boldrei 4. Gold - ??? 5. Silver - Dol Dorn Plus Khyber, Eberron, and Siberys Five of the Dark Six gods and their associated "lesser" dragons: The Devourer - Dragon Turtle The Fury - snakelike wyrm of Khyber The Keeper - Skeletal dragon - dracolich The Mockery - Half-fiend Red Dragon The Shadow - Shadow Dragon The Traveler - No dragon form...no connection to the other deities in the pantheon So if you remove the Traveler, and go back to the time before the Devourer's attack on his sister Arawai... the original pantheon appears to have been: 1. Arawai - Sister of Balinor and the Devourer 2. Aureon - Brother of Onatar, Husband of Boldrei 3. Balinor - Brother of Arawai and The Devourer 4. Boldrei - Aureon's wife 5. Dol Arrah - Sister of Dol Dorn and the Mockery 6. Dol Dorn - Brother of Dol Arrah and the Mockery 7. Kol Korran - Son of Olladra and Onatar, Twin of the Keeper 8. Olladra - Wife of Onatar, Mother of Kol Korran & the Keeper 9. Onatar - Husband of Olladra, Father of Kol Korran & the Keeper 10. The Devourer - Brother of Balinor and Arawai 11. The Keeper - Twin Brother of Kol Korran, Son of Olladra and Onatar 12. The Mockery - Brother of Dol Dorn and Dol Arrah 13. The Shadow - the literal shadow of Aureon Familiar number no? Interestingly, associating these 13 gods with the Dragonmarks is pretty easy. The gods, their spheres of influence, and my best guess at the associated dragonmark: 1. Arawai - fertility, plant life, abundance - Mark of Healing 2. Aureon - Law and Knowledge - Mark of Scribing 3. Balinor - Beasts and the hunt - Mark of Handling 4. Boldrei - Community and Hearth - Mark of Warding 5. Dol Arrah - Honorable combat and sacrifice and light - Mark of Detection 6. Dol Dorn - war - Mark of Sentinel 7. Kol Korran - Trade & wealth - Mark of Passage 8. Olladra - Feast and good fortune - Mark of Hospitality 9. Onatar - Artifice and the forge - Mark of Making 10. The Devourer - maelstroms, destructive nature - Mark of Storm 11. The Keeper - Death & Decay - Mark of Death 12. The Mockery - Treachery - Mark of Finding 13. The Shadow - dark magic - Mark of Shadow I'm not entirely happy with all these associations, but several of them are no-brainers. Oddly, this means that the Fury and the Traveler are outside the list. Any thoughts?
Magagumo 08-31-04, 06:20 PM	Hmm.. Fang Dragon for the Fury?
Bubba333 08-31-04, 09:28 PM	Above, Below and Between. They're known, respectively, as Syberis, Khyber and Eberron. Ah! I didn't think of them as actual dragons, but more of iconic representations.
Dex The King 08-31-04, 09:49 PM	Originally posted by Magagumo Fang Dragon for the Fury?I suppose that could work, but how snakelike are fang dragons? I have the Draconomicon right here, and they're not really all that snakelike. I think I'm going to ask Keith . . .
LewisLlynn 09-01-04, 12:08 PM	Okay, to organize this just for myself, let's list all the thirteens: Dragonmarks (Death is lost) Moons (one is lost) Nations (Cyre is destroyed) Planes (Dal Quor is remote) Now, there may be a dragon/gods connection. JohnSnow's explanation seems to be a very good one, except this: why are the traveler and the fury excluded??? There are 15 with them, 13 without them. None of the other 13s have others outside of the 13. I suppose the Traveler is excluded easily enough, but the Fury is the wrench in the works. WHY WHY WHY WHY WHY?????? I don't get it? What does it all mean???????!!!!!!!
Darrek 09-01-04, 01:30 PM	WHY WHY WHY WHY?????? I don't get it? What does it all mean???????!!!!!!! Perhaps it means nothing. Perhaps 13 is not the magical number it appears to be. Consider: 13 dragonmarks neglects abberant dragonmarks. 13 moons is all we know of. Moon number 13 disappeared aeons ago. Maybe there were more even further in the distant past. And what about the Ring of Siberys? That's another celestial body similar to a moon. Each shard could perhaps be considered an individual moon. 13 countries always felt like a coincidence to me. This configuration has only existed for 2 years. 5 nations before. Possibly more in the future. (Meta-game, Hellcow has said far more contries were once planned. Maybe they got the chop for space, maybe they got the chop to fit the rule of 13). 13 planes again are only what we know of. The daelkyr make a habit of destroying worlds, Eberron just being one. Parallel prime worlds, or even planes with orbits so infathomably long they've never come out of being remote may exist.
Dex The King 09-01-04, 02:07 PM	I highly, highly doubt that there will ever be more moons and more planes, although it remains a possibility. And as for 13 dragonmarks neglecting aberrant dragonmarks, look at it this way: There are 13 dragonmarks that manifest in progressions of least, lesser, and greater. There are also 13 Siberys marks that manifest independently of the least, lesser, and greater marks with similar powers. Finally, there are 13 aberrant dragonmarks. Here's my theory about why. There are 13 gods that are blood related (not counting the Shadow or the Traveler, who aren't). There are 13 planes, one for each moon. The thirteenth moon disappeared when its plane (Dal Quor) was thrown off orbit. Its possible that the moons are the planes. There are 13 nations. Droaam, in my opinion, isn't unified enough to be a nation, and the thirteenth is destroyed Cyre. Last, there are 13 dragonmarks for each of the three primordial wyrms, Siberys, Eberron, and Khyber. There are marks of Siberys, Keith has suggested that the aberrant marks have a connection to Khyber, and the least, lesser, and greater marks are those for Eberron. Due to the dragonmarks, especially being tied as they are to the primordial wyrms, gods (which are described as dragons), and the fact that Eberron is a world made from dragons, I theorize that the number thirteen is somehow related to the grand draconic Prophecy. Yes, that's right, the meaning of life in Eberron isn't 42, it's 13. Now, what exactly 13 means, I haven't a clue. Keith wouldn't tell me, and it has been suggested that it's just a "Baker's Dozen." I for one hope that it's more than that.
Darrek 09-01-04, 10:13 PM	Now, what exactly 13 means, I haven't a clue. Keith wouldn't tell me, and it has been suggested that it's just a "Baker's Dozen." I for one hope that it's more than that. Sorry Dex, but I for one hope it isn't. There's nothing I like more than a red herring, particularly one as convoluted as the loose 13 association that keeps coming up. My players have honestly stopped looking for the conspiracies behind my adventures simply because I will lead them down totally incorrect paths. They'll burst into the den of evil expecting Vol and the Emerald Claw, and instead be facing a slew of Rakshasa. I never plant false information; I just help them put the pieces together by drawing attention to the wrong stuff. When they realize they've duped themselves (with my help), it gives me goosebumps! The 13 is the same. I've been thinking aloud here on possible links, and simultaneously pointing out why the links are not valid. Ultimately I'm sure the answer to the Baker's Dozen rule will always be "what do YOU think?".
Masterful_Norg 09-01-04, 11:12 PM	Numerologically speaking the number 13 isn't as special as say 3, 6, 7, 9, 12 or 15. Perhaps the moons were once 13 in number because when you simplify 13 you get 4 (the number of the seasons). The factorial of 13 is 6,227,020,800 if that's any help to you people who know what the heck I'm talking about. You could check this (http://halexandria.org/dward116.htm) out for inspiration in your quest for explaining the mysterious baker's dozen. Perhaps this (http://halexandria.org/dward115.htm) will help you as well.
Dex The King 09-01-04, 11:34 PM	I see what you mean, Narrek, and I agree with you when you say that it will probably always be a curiosity to be pondered or discredited. After all, if there were a specific answer, there certainly wouldn't be this much debate. If everyone saw Oswald shoot Kennedy in plain sight, there'd be no arguement. But I also disagree with you. If all the herring you caught in the lake were red, then one tends to assume that all the herring in the lake are red. If all leads are false, detective work isn't worth the effort. And that's no fun.
Darrek 09-02-04, 10:54 AM	I see what you mean, Narrek, and I agree with you when you say that it will probably always be a curiosity to be pondered or discredited. After all, if there were a specific answer, there certainly wouldn't be this much debate. If everyone saw Oswald shoot Kennedy in plain sight, there'd be no arguement. But I also disagree with you. If all the herring you caught in the lake were red, then one tends to assume that all the herring in the lake are red. If all leads are false, detective work isn't worth the effort. And that's no fun. Thanks Dex, and I appreciate the advise. However I'm always very careful to put needed clues in place as well as the fake ones. For instance, last week my PCs spent hours poring over the journal written 3 months before the victim's death, while he was exploring an old Daelkyr fortress in the Demon Wastes. They totally overlooked the shiny mithril ring he was wearing as a bracelet, picked up in Xendrick less than 2 weeks before his murder. There was plenty of detailed information about each one available on my DM's notes, but when they focussed on the journal, I didn't draw their attention back to the ring.
LewisLlynn 09-02-04, 12:51 PM	Whether the 13s are red herrings or not, I like to debate about what it really is. I think for right now, I'll go with JohnSnow's explanation because it sort of works. And my brain is tired.
Dex The King 09-02-04, 02:19 PM	I see Narrek, you're not actually misleading them or teaching them not to investigate. You're teaching them to be thorough and investigate every option. I like that. I also like the mystery of the thirteen. What does it mean? No one knows. You might as well ask what caused the Mourning (which plenty of people have already asked).
Darrek 09-02-04, 03:37 PM	I see Narrek, ?? The first time I thought it was a typo. Now I'm wondering if I should be calling you Nex?:)
Rajorke 09-03-04, 02:12 PM	12 planes 1 remote 12 moons 1 destroyed 12 dragonmarks 1 dead 12 nations 1 obliterated hmmm... where to go next 12 classes... 12 races of mortals... (if you count the inspired) yeah i know its a stretch but if you go looking for connections and conspiracies you'll find them whether there real or not that is the nature of paranoia and NOIR maybe 12 is the important number and not thirteen maybe the dragons are responsible for the destruction of the thirteenth and that is their way of guiding the prophecy the dragons did teach the giants the magic to stop the quori and in turn guiding the 13th plane to be remote and the 13th moon to be destroyed (possibly) the killed off the 13th dragonmark, maybe they where also responsible for the destruction of Cyre 12 not 13 and the dragons know it
Saurenda 09-03-04, 02:51 PM	The twelve, a magical organization which rejected a former member who went mad. Mordain the Fleshweaver. Does this mean that this counts as an example to the thirteen coincidence?
Saurenda 09-03-04, 02:55 PM	12 planes 1 remote 12 moons 1 destroyed 12 dragonmarks 1 dead 12 nations 1 obliterated hmmm... where to go next 12 classes... 12 races of mortals... (if you count the inspired) 12 not 13 and the dragons know it Does Siberysis count? I mean he was supposed to have died in the battle with Kyber and became the broken ring around Eberron. Doesn't that mean 12 dragons as well? Is Siberysis defeat and the interference of Eberron the guidlines for all of this 13, then take away one ot make 12 prophecy?
Fevil 09-03-04, 03:08 PM	On this topic I refer you to my post in the "Interfering with Prophecy Thread" Link Here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=298849) Post #13....ironically...
atanhel 09-03-04, 04:04 PM	i just found a major problem: 11! not 12 or 13 but 11! the constellations. somehow they should get to 13, there the dragon gods, but there only with 11. why? i mean if it should be obviouse that 13 is da number the constellations would be the first thing to point that out ( look at history and horoscoops)! so why not?
Saurenda 09-04-04, 01:03 PM	If I had the draconimicon with I could check the true number of constellations by looking at the number of dragon gods listed in the dieties section. Bahamut Tiamant Gyagax Io Represents Father of Dragon kind Yet not the creator of Siberyis, Kyhber and Eberron? {Chatoic messenger of Io} {Death oriented Dragon God} Are the only ones I remember off hand. Anyone witht he Drraconomicon help us out with the exact nnumber and thier names please? Darn my moving!
atanhel 09-04-04, 01:06 PM	for all who want to check this... there also in the back of DotF (defenders of the faith)! if olny i could check! damn my moving ;)
shemnon 09-05-04, 12:57 AM	I think it is (or at least originated) as the Bakers Dozen. Started out as 13, but there's erally only room for 12. It's a greate literary device and makes for good expectation by readers and such in the future. Dragonlance had the triad of good/evil/neutrality. Planescape has the rule of three. Since Eberron is "the same but different" they do have their own similar rule, call it the Bakers Dozen or 12+1. (speculation) The Bakers Dozen Rule of Ebberon: anything directly realted to or influenced by the draconic prophecy relates to the 12+1 pattern. This includes the number of such mega-patterns (the pattern mega-pattern being #13). Such as the mortal or "free will" races native to Ebberon, if enumerated one could presume they are 12, with the nearly extinct Cuatals being #13. If this is true then we can conclude that the number of nations after the thronehold treaty is related ot the draconic prophecy, and hence the "last war" itself was related to the prophecy. What's next in the prophecy? Who knows, but the chamber seems quite interested in the 12 nations. Are they there to observer, or to influence? And if to influence, to what end? The end of the 12 nations or to preserve them?