Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ImmortalBlueMage 09-19-04, 09:33 PM	I like the way the classic DnD races fit into the Eberron cosmology. In my opinion, Eberron is the best thing to happen to some of the less interesting peoples of the DnD world in a long time. Even so, one thing strikes me as inconsistant, that being, the favored classes of the corebook races don't make a whole lot of sense in the context of Eberron. As such, I was thinking of house ruling some of them. Humans and Half-Elves still retain the "Any Favored Class" function, that's no issue at all, and although I don't feel it's one hundred percent appropriate, I'll stay with Fighter for Dwarves just because I can't think of anything that would work better. But look at the Halflings of the Talenta Plains. Although I realize the Rogue class can encompass many different definitions and roles in society, it still doesn't seem to me that dinosaur-herding nomacid plains-dwellers are going to spawn many Rogues, societally speaking. Ranger or perhaps even Barbarian would make a lot more sense. Now, as much as I like Gnomish Bards, I think it just goes without saying that Artificer is a better favored class for the little guys.This has long been the stereotypical role of Gnomes in fantasy, and only now has a class actually been available that fits the purpose. The matter of Half-Orcs is, perhaps not surprisingly, a matter more about full-blooded Orcs than half-breeds. Traditional DnD Orcs are vicious, primitive, and warlike peoples, so Barbarian is a perfect fit. But in Eberron, most all of Orc society is based around Druidism. So Druid as a favored class for Orcs, and, by extention, Half-Orcs, is sort of a "duh" as far as I see it. Now, the Elves are a bit of a catching point for me. I like how the Elves of Valenar are a warrior race with a long and glorius history of conquest. So Fighter would seem like the best choice for a favored class. But that would make three races with favored class Fighter (Elves, Dwarves, and Warforged), which seems too many to me. On top of it, I feel like the Elves of Aerenal still make more sense as Wizards (Necromancers in particular) than Fighters, as such the change would be innappropriate for them. I really don't want to start creating regional subraces ala Forgotten Realms, especially not solely over class issues (haha), so I'm up in the air over the pointy-eared guys for now. What does the rest of the board think? Opinions on what I've laid out here and suggestions as to possible changes for Elves and Dwarves are equally appreciated.
Edymnion 09-19-04, 09:59 PM	Keith answered this in the Ask Keith thread, but long story short, it was intentional. The halflings may be barbarians, but they still have a natural affinity towards stealth. They may take Barbarian as their main class more often than not, but if they were to multiclass, they would most likely pick Rogue for the extra stealth and tracking skills, as opposed to anything else. Or that the elves, while militant, still have natural arcane leanings, and any elf that multiclassed would still be more likely to go into Wizard than anything else.
Marshall Stone 09-20-04, 12:27 AM	I never really liked how elves only had Wizard for a favored class, especially when you read the description of the Sorcerer, which seems ideal for elves. That and the fact that Humans and Half-Elves can choose from any class inspired the idea that the other races can have more than one Favored Class. So... Humans, Khoravar, and Half-Orcs - Any Favored Class Gnomes - Bard or Artificer (player chooses when he starts the character) Halfling - Barbarian, Rogue, or Ranger (again player chooses) Valenar Elves - Ranger; for that double-scimitar weapons of thiers Aerenal Elves - Wizard or Sorcerer (again player chooses) Dwarves - Fighters or Artificers (again player chooses) Okay, the Half-Orcs seem a bit more...sophisticated in Eberron and since Half-ELves get to have Any Favored Class why not Half-Orcs? I know you wrote you didn't want to, "...start creating regional subraces ala Forgotten Realms," well don't, but Cultural differences can certainly legitamize a different Favored Class. So a Valenar elf with thier horsemanship, and double-scimitar weapons just screams Ranger. While Aerenal are your "typical" elf and as stated at the beginning of this reply I always felt that Sorcerer would make a good favored class for an elf as well as a Wizard. As for the others, why bother choosing only one favored class. Humans and Half-Elves get a variety, I don't see the harm in allowing a player to choose from a limited list, so long as they choose it when they start their character which can go a long way to actually developing that character's background, motivation, etc., while keeping in mind thier racial and cultural preferences. Anyways, that's my 2 crowns.
Somebloke 09-20-04, 12:33 AM	I'm going to allow my homebrew duelist class into the campaign world. It suits the feel (lightly armored acrobatic warriors) and the idea of dueling schools suits Ebberron perfectly. I already have a player chomping at the bit to play an Arcanist. It's going to be popular.
Arkhain 09-20-04, 02:02 AM	I am all for modified favored classes. Favored classes are supposed to be the highest level class, and I'm fairly sure the number of Valenar soldiers who are higher level Wizard than Ranger are incredibly rare. So, my take... Aerenal Elves : Wizard or Cleric. The character may chose. There is a dichotomistic split between the old Necromancers and the new Undying Court, and with faction schisms between the Stillborn and Deathless, the powers of life and death decide the elven traditions. Multiclassed Necromancer/Undying Court Clerics are very, very frowned upon. Valenar Elves : Ranger or Fighter. I'm not sure which. The militaristic ways of the elven raiders has put the focus on combat rather than the ancient ways of magic. Many a Valenar raiding party has rode in and rode out with the sunlight glinting off of their spinning, curved blades. Half-Orcs : Druid or Ranger. The player may chose. The greatest druidic traditions originated in the roots of the Orcish race, and has trickled down through the centuries. The appearence of the Mark of Finding has caused many half-orcs to turn their knowledge of the land to knowledge of tracking and hunting, but plenty of half-orcs have seen no reason to give up their natural focus and continue the druidic paths. (Side note : usually I make Elves have Sorc as favored, but Eberron elves seem to go better with Wizard)
Ashaman Joe 09-20-04, 02:24 AM	Remember that the favored class has nothing to do with single classing. Instead, it represents an innate racial affinity to a class. So most Valenar elves are Rangers, but their favored class is still wizard. They have an inate understaning for magic that makes it easy for them to pick up on the wizard's path. Likewise, many Talentan halflings are Barbarians, but if they multiclass, they are likely to gain levels as Rouges, reflecting their natural talents for sneaking around. Half Orcs from the Shadow Marches may be proficient Druids, but when it comes down to it, they're really good at letting it all go and smashing things. :)
Hellcow 09-20-04, 02:52 AM	Ashaman Joe and Edynmion have already summarized my views on this, and you can see my thoughts in more exhaustive detail elsewhere on the thread. Generally speaking, I don't see favored class as being cultural; I see it as being an inherent aspect of the race. Orcs were the first druids of Khorvaire -- but what was their favored class before Vvaraak came? What is the favored class of a halfling born in an orphanage in Sharn, raised among humans? To me, barbarian as the favored class of half-orcs does not represent a savage culture -- it represents a rage that is the legacy of orcish blood, a fire within that is always there regardless of the path the half-orc chooses (back to the point that favored class means nothing until you take a second class). The human ability to follow any class is not about human culture; it's about the flexibility of the human mind, like the broader range of skills and feats. On the other hand, if you want to change it, it's not like it's going to break the game, so have fun with it! Personally I think that the favored classes work as they are, and I like the fact that it tells you the likely difference between a Talenta ranger (more likely to multiclass to rogue and favor sneak attacks) and a Valenar ranger (more likely to multiclass to wizard and become an arcane archer or spellsword). But I really think it's a matter of personal taste, and if you want it to be a cultural thing, run with it -- you just need to figure out how to deal with the cultureless folk who have assimilated into human society.
Hellcow 09-20-04, 03:03 AM	Now, as much as I like Gnomish Bards, I think it just goes without saying that Artificer is a better favored class for the little guys.This has long been the stereotypical role of Gnomes in fantasy, and only now has a class actually been available that fits the purpose. As someone who loves Zilargo, I must disagree. I feel that as they are presented in other settings, artificer is a good match for gnome. But in my eyes, bard is the perfect class for the gnomes of Zilargo. The driving passion of the gnomes is not creation, it is information. Words are their weapons, and they are interested both in scholarly knowledge, arcane secrets, and blackmail. They are skilled scribes and diplomats, but also masterful spies. Sense Motive, Bluff, Diplomacy, and Knowledge skills are all key skills for Zil gnomes -- and the limited magical abilities of the bard are a good extension of the natural magical abilities of the gnome. The gnomes have a gift for alchemy, and they possess secrets of elemental binding that the other races have yet to learn (in part because the gnomes possess the largest khyber shard reserves). But they are not the greatest artificers of the age; that would be House Cannith. The Library of Korranberg is the most renowned source of general knowledge, but when it comes to specific arcane secrets, the Twelve and Arcanix can meet and exceed it. he key is knowledge (gnowledge?), not necessarily creation. Anyhow, just my two cents -- but in designing Zilargo, my thought was that the favored class of bard was a perfect match for their civilization. I'll be looking at the Zil gnomes in more detail in the future, so hopefully more light will be shed on this in the future. (Now, if you follow Marshall Stone's plan, I think "Bard or Artificer" is perfectly acceptable - but if I was picking one, I'd definitely stay with Bard.)
Hellcow 09-20-04, 03:13 AM	... I don't want to be a wet blanket on new ideas. The purpose of this thread is "What might be good alternate favored classes for Eberron?" Just because I keep them as is doesn't mean that you shouldn't experiment and come up with new ideas -- your ideas might be better than mine, or at least better for your campaign. So I'll go on back to the Ask Keith thread and leave you to brainstorm! Have fun, and I hope I didn't come across as too discouraging.
stembolt 09-20-04, 03:27 AM	I already have a player chomping at the bit to play an Arcanist. It's going to be popular “Champing at the bit” (it’s a pet peeve) I spent a brief period contemplating the artificer class and gnomes (when the ECSB came out). In the end I realized that favored class is “what class is truly easy for the character to take?” Things snap in place after that. I would not change any of the favored class choices for any of the core races.
Just another user 09-20-04, 04:16 AM	I am all for modified favored classes. Favored classes are supposed to be the highest level class, and I'm fairly sure the number of Valenar soldiers who are higher level Wizard than Ranger are incredibly rare. Uh?! No, not at all. Favored class is a class that your character can take without xp penalties. It is equally probable that your character highest level is in a non-favored class and he just take a couple of levels in his favored class for round up him or for roleplaying reasons That mean that your 8th level valenar elf ranger can take some levels of Wizard to help him in combat without problems, but not some of rogue. Why? Because elves have a NATURAL predisposition for wizardry. Halflings are rogues because they are naturally sneaky Gnome are born bards because they are naturally social. Orcs and half-orcs are civilized now, but they where still a savage race just some thousands years ago and that is still part of their nature. and so on, and so on. The operative word here is natural. Favored classes are not culturals, they are "genetic", to say so. This is how Keith make it works in Eberron and I just happen to totally agree with his POW. Said that, of course this is still your game, and if you wanna change it, be welcome. :) EDIT: and of course , I'd better to read all the thread before to post in it, so I don't risk to repeat things already mentioned. Oh, well... :roll:
Hellcow 09-20-04, 04:33 AM	[EDIT]I need to let go of my boardaholic ways and focus on work and the Ask Keith thread. So ignore this message -- nothing to see -- talk amongst yourselves! ;)
ImmortalBlueMage 09-21-04, 03:51 PM	... I don't want to be a wet blanket on new ideas. The purpose of this thread is "What might be good alternate favored classes for Eberron?" Just because I keep them as is doesn't mean that you shouldn't experiment and come up with new ideas -- your ideas might be better than mine, or at least better for your campaign. So I'll go on back to the Ask Keith thread and leave you to brainstorm! Have fun, and I hope I didn't come across as too discouraging. You really shoudln't feel like you're input isn't appropriate on issues like this. You're a member of the boards just like everyone else and you have just as much right as anyone else to comment. Additionally, it IS very cool getting direct input from the primary creator, I wish you could get that on any of the other boards. Be that as it may, to be honest, I always looked at Favored Class as a societal thing. I just assumed that Fighter was the Favored Class for a Hobgoblin on account of the fact that they're a militaristic society that values order, so they would encourage their numbers to take up the Fighter class as much as possible. This is actually the first time anyone has ever pointed out that it might be an indicator of simple natural ability instead. So, I guess it's the old nature vs nurture sort of argument, huh? What's a bigger influence on you, your own personal talents, or the expectations of the people around you? I'm leaning toward just saying "both" and giving everyone two Favored Classes. This will weaken the Humans and Half-Elves to a degree, but probably not enough to really matter. As it stands, things stack up like this: Human: Any Half-Elf: Any Half-Orc: Barbarian or Druid Elf: Fighter or Wizard Gnome: Bard or Artificer Halfling: Rogue or Barbarian Dwarf: Fighter or Cleric That's all I've got so far. I need to make up secondary favored classes for Shifters, Changelings, Warforged, and Kalashtar now too. It's a bit more trouble, but I really like the idea, as it helps give the Eberron races a bit more distinction from the core ones, which is something that I personally like about a new setting (I never got past my love of cannibalistic Dark Sun Halflings, I think). Couple of points to touch on in my selections, Cleric seems like (and is) a weak choice for a Dwarven class, likely it'll change very soon, I'm just experimenting with ideas right now. I figure, Dwarves spend a lot of time protecting things, their homes from invasion, their mines from other interests, the wealth intrusted to them from thieves, etc. Clerics are the class best designed for defending pretty much anything. Yeah, like I said, weak, I'll have to think on it more. I still insist that Gnomes make good Artificers, but I liked Keith's points on the Gnomish culture of information and how it fits the Bard class. I should point out that I usually don't like races and peoples and organizations that are obsessed with "knowledge" in RPGs though, since they're usually nothing more than a blatant DMs tool to advance the story and give out adventure hooks. "Why yes, of course we know where the Blood of Vol keep their sacred artifacts, we'd be happy to help you find the hidden vault. If you were willing to do something for us in exchange, that is..." etc.
Hellcow 09-21-04, 04:15 PM	So, I guess it's the old nature vs nurture sort of argument, huh? What's a bigger influence on you, your own personal talents, or the expectations of the people around you? So what is your view of the halfling orphan raised by humans, or for that matter a human raised by halflings? Why wouldn't a halfling raised among humans have "any" as a favored class, if favored class reflects human upbringing? (Again, I'm purely interested in this philosophically, not trying to say "you're wrong!") I should point out that I usually don't like races and peoples and organizations that are obsessed with "knowledge" in RPGs though, since they're usually nothing more than a blatant DMs tool to advance the story and give out adventure hooks. "Why yes, of course we know where the Blood of Vol keep their sacred artifacts, we'd be happy to help you find the hidden vault. If you were willing to do something for us in exchange, that is..." etc. Fair enough. Though in my mind the gnomes are far less interested in abstract knowledge for its own sake and more because they believe in that all knowledge can have practical value in the world: as diplomats, merchants, and blackmailers, they believe that the more they know, the more power they have. Great, they help you rob the sacred vault of the Blood of Vol. But the next time they want you to do something you don't feel like doing, they might say "It would be too bad if the Blood of Vol found out who robbed their vault last fall, wouldn't it?" Ideally, it's not just a plot device -- it's a weapon.
Damien_Hiro 09-21-04, 04:48 PM	Why wouldn't a halfling raised among humans have "any" as a favored class, if favored class reflects human upbringing? I would say yes. I have done this in my campaign to change things up. I also allow some other abilities transfer. A PC brought up by humans would get the extra skill bonus, while one brought up with elves, dwarves and gnomes would get their racial weapons proficientcies. If he grew up with halflings he would get the +1 to attack with thrown weapons. I also ask my PC to write a very good explanation why they were adopted by another race. I use it as a twist and it works very well.
malkav138 09-21-04, 05:01 PM	Changing favored classes is just another way of creating subraces. I think the fundamental question that I would ask myself if I was considering changing anything about a race is: Does the race as it is work, as opposed to is the race as it is the most convenient? With all races that spawn adventurers the favored class feature is simply defining the physical/mental aptitudes of the race as a species not as a people. Sure the artificer works for gnomes, but it is the natural tendancy of gnomes to be "information *****s" in any setting. All that the favored class states is that a gnome Artificer/Bard would probably be more likely to happen than say an Artificer/Druid. Not because gnomes would make poor druids but because the species(gnome) is inquisitive by nature so over the course of history they have realized that they as a species make exceptional bards. Favored class don't state that members of that species aren't good at being members of other classes. Its just bringing to point that the race in question, because of its physical/mental/magical aptitudes and weaknesses would be well suited for a particular adventuring profession. And members of any given species begin to realize over time that they are good at specifice things and tend to lean towards them. because every one wants to be successful. Don't fix it if it ain't broken, but thats just my opinion. BTW. on the topic of subraces, there should be some subraces in Races of Eberron next year. So why not wait and see if the flavor of gnome or whatever else you are looking to add to your diet is in that book, before changing the whole menu. My tendancy as a DM is try and add enough material to make the game fun for me and my players, but to try not to mess with core rule mechanics unless something is badly broken.
Hellcow 09-21-04, 05:13 PM	BTW. on the topic of subraces, there should be some subraces in Races of Eberron next year. Actually, there won't be! We're largely avoiding subraces in Eberron. As I've said before, if you want to use existing subraces or create your own, feel free -- but in official material it's something we're avoiding. Currently the Xen'drik drow are the only subrace we've placed, and in my mind they are really an entirely different race from the Aereni and Tairnadal (different appearance, different vision, different stat mods, SR, spell-like abilities, etc). Hmm, the warforged scout is obviously an exception, but with the warforged as an artificially created species and the size difference between the two, I'm OK with it. There are no additional warforged subraces in RoE, and I wouldn't expect to see others from us.
greatfrito 09-21-04, 06:10 PM	Actually, there won't be! We're largely avoiding subraces in Eberron. ... YAY! *dances on the corpses of the subraces* I don't know why, but those always didn't sit well with me. *shrugs* Didn't feel necessary (or balanced most of the time). I was dissapointed that the "Warforged Scout" exists in official material, and I'm pretty sure we're not using it in our game (I have ways of convincing the DM... *gets greatsword*). I mean... now Warforged Rogues make less sense... which is dumb, in my opinion. Now, anyways, what was the topic of this thread? Oh yeah, favored class. Yeah, I almost do agree with changing the favored classes of some of the races... but I'm taking the position with Eberron that I'm not changing any official material (unless I have to... like with Warforged scouts... they hurt me...).
ImmortalBlueMage 09-21-04, 07:22 PM	So what is your view of the halfling orphan raised by humans, or for that matter a human raised by halflings? Why wouldn't a halfling raised among humans have "any" as a favored class, if favored class reflects human upbringing Well, short answer, because it would be unbalancing. I dunno, sometimes I just think you have to sacrifice story for rules balance. Unfortunate, but if not then every player would be coming up to me and saying "I really shouldn't be taking an XP penalty for this new class, because my Dwarf was raised in a community that specialized in training Assassins. Oh yes, the town of KillGore, never heard of it? Probably because it was in Cyre. Anyway, long, proud tradition of Assassination in KillGore. Why yes, now that you mention it, it IS just right next to the town that specialized in Purple Dragon Knights and Frenzied Berserkers that Steve was telling you about last night." Fair enough. Though in my mind the gnomes are far less interested in abstract knowledge for its own sake and more because they believe in that all knowledge can have practical value in the world: as diplomats, merchants, and blackmailers, they believe that the more they know, the more power they have. Great, they help you rob the sacred vault of the Blood of Vol. But the next time they want you to do something you don't feel like doing, they might say "It would be too bad if the Blood of Vol found out who robbed their vault last fall, wouldn't it?" Ideally, it's not just a plot device -- it's a weapon. Like you said, fair enough. I guess my big weakness as a DM is that I just don't have a mind for intrigue. That's why I stopped playing Vampire. But that's why we buy modules, right?
ImmortalBlueMage 09-21-04, 07:24 PM	Oh, and while I'm here, good call on the subraces things. Subraces seemed very cool back when I first started playing DnD, but it gets to be a pretty big mess before long and most subraces are just plain boring anyway. I tend to phase them out of my games as much as possible, with the exception of Dark Elves, which are just too iconic at this point, and Duergar, which I just happen to like on a personal level.
wizard of oz 09-21-04, 07:56 PM	I didn't know preferred classes was such a hot topic. In my games people almost never take a second class. most will find a PRC that fits their needs. We just ignor them entirely. it just doesn't make sense for a fighter to take wizard. The wizard in the party will always be better and that magic missle just isn't as impressive as his sword swing. The one exception is the Fighter/Rogue. but the people normally keep the levels balanced anyway.
Hellcow 09-21-04, 08:14 PM	it just doesn't make sense for a fighter to take wizard. Unless you're trying to become an arcane archer... On a purely pound for pound level, multiclassing may not match that extra level for the single-classed spellcaster. But it can add a lot of color to a character, and distinguish him from others of the same class. My Valenar ranger spurns confining armor, trusting in his magic (mage armor) to shield him in battle. His faithful steed is his animal companion, but he also has a raven familiar that can help him scout the battlefield. Should his mount ever fall, he can summon its shade to help him (a colorful description of mount, though the magical mount would not possess the abilities of the animal companion) -- which could be very important if I've built my character around mounted combat. On the other hand, looking to a Int 10 halfling, if I take a single rogue level at first level and then go barbarian from that point forward, I get to spot traps, sneak attack (albeit small), and have 16 more skill points (32 starting as opposed to 16) to put into Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Climb, and the like -- helping me create a character defined as being a specialist in ambushes. It's all in how you look at things.
LewisLlynn 09-21-04, 08:17 PM	While genetic favored classes make sense, in my game I would rather have cultural fav. classes, if only for cultural attitude. Here's my idea: Human: Any Khorvar: Any Shadow Marches Half-Orc: Druid Other Half-Orc: Barbarian Talenta halfling: Barbarian Other Halfling: Rogue Aerenal Elf: Necromancer Valenar Elf: Fighter Other Elf: Wizard Dwarf: Fighter Zilargo Gnome: Artificer Other Gnome: Bard
Hellcow 09-21-04, 08:35 PM	Aerenal Elf: Necromancer Bear in mind that the Aereni find many of the uses of necromantic magic to be abhorrent. Most Aereni would never use animate dead, for example. The greatest necromancers of the Aereni were the line of Vol and their followers, and they were slain or driven away. Wizard works for me, but if you're going to change it, you might consider Cleric (Undying Court). Valenar Elf: Fighter Likewise, I see the combat class of the Valenar as being ranger more often than fighter. They favor light armor and stealth, have a close bond with their horses (read: animal companions, wild empathy), and are masters of the double scimitar (combat style). Of course, as I've said all along, I don't think that most common class needs to be favored class, but there's my two crowns. Zilargo Gnome: Artificer Other Gnome: Bard As I said earlier in this thread, I personally think that bard is the perfect mtch for the Zil gnomes -- but again, the important thing is what works best for you, so I'll shut up now. ;)
ImmortalBlueMage 09-22-04, 02:46 AM	I picked Elven Fighter over Elven Ranger, just because Elven Ranger seems like such a stereotype. Fighter is a little more offbeat for them. Admittedly it's not a strong race/class combination though.
Just another user 09-22-04, 03:22 AM	I didn't know preferred classes was such a hot topic. In my games people almost never take a second class. most will find a PRC that fits their needs. We just ignor them entirely. it just doesn't make sense for a fighter to take wizard. The wizard in the party will always be better and that magic missle just isn't as impressive as his sword swing. The one exception is the Fighter/Rogue. but the people normally keep the levels balanced anyway. Oh, I don't know, think to a fighter that can cast True Strike or bull's Strength a couple of times/day without the need to wait for the wizard, or that can use that spare wand of magic missile the party found in an hobgoblin cache (while the wizard use the other one, more powerful, that you bought at Sharn). A couple of levels of wizard, if well chosen, can be very useful for any class
Just another user 09-22-04, 03:38 AM	I picked Elven Fighter over Elven Ranger, just because Elven Ranger seems like such a stereotype. Uh, Is it is not being stereotypical the point of using favored classes? :confused: