Post/Author/DateTime	Post
polt 07-27-05, 06:28 PM	So, I've tried to adapt the True20 spellsystem into D&D for some time now, and this is what I came up with. I'd like to use it in my Eberron campaing. I like the system, it's better than the one in the PHB if you ask me. Kinda reminds me of Raistlin though. The cool thing is you don't have to worry if you'll have enough spells left if you go into combat later. No more parties suddenly going to sleep in the middle of the afternoon so the wizard can regain spells. Fatigue spell system: Most spells in the PHB will be causing fatigue. Basically every time a Wizard casts a spell, he'll need to make a Will or Fortitude save (which ever is higher). The DC for this save is: 6 + 1/2 caster lvl rounded down + spell lvl. For example. Mira a 7th lvl Wizard casts a 2nd lvl spell. The DC would then be: 6 + 3 + 2 = 11. If a wizard casts many spells in a short period of time, the DC increases by 1 for every spell he casts. The DC goes back to normal when he's healed one step of fatigue. There are three steps of Fatigue levels. You recover one every hour you don't strain yourself. You can't fight or cast spells. The three steps are: Winded, Fatigued and Exhausted. Winded: -2 to strength and dex. Cannot charge. Fatigued: Cannot charge and -4 to str and dex. Exhausted: Near collapse. -6 to str and dex. Move half speed. If a character who is exhausted suffer additional fatigue, he falls unconscious. I'm thinking of doing something like: 10 points in concentration gives you +1 on your will save against fatigue. Also I'm thinking of doing something like, when you get 3rd lvl spells, 1st spells no longer increase the DC. And when you get 4th lvl spells, 2nd lvl spells no longer increase the DC. And so on. But I'd like some help with this. So please give your opinions and thoughts. Also on what this would do to Eberron as a setting. Not much? Or a whole lot?
Galen_Michael 07-27-05, 08:27 PM	Well... First off, why 8 + (etc.) and not 10 + (etc.) for the save DC? 10 is a pretty standard base for save DCs. Also, by adding caster level into the save DC equation, you're making multiclassed spellcasters better than straight spellcasters. A wizard 3/Monk 4 casting a 2nd level spell would only have a fatigue DC of 8 + 2 + 1 = 11, while your 7th level caster faces a DC 12 fatigue save. Otherwise an interesting concept. Perhaps tie fatigue DC directly to the level of the spell cast? Maybe 10 + (spell level x 2)? Makes Iron Will/Great Fortitude almost mandatory feats for spellcasters... Galen
Edymnion 07-27-05, 08:38 PM	No more parties suddenly going to sleep in the middle of the afternoon so the wizard can regain spells.Uh, thats not really a problem if you follow the rules. Its Spells per DAY, not Spells per 8 Hour Rest Period. It doesn't matter how many 8 hour sleep breaks you take, you won't get more than your alloted spells per day. And even then, you don't have to actually SLEEP to regain spells, just rest and not do anything constructive. A Warforged Wizard, for example, never sleeps, but still gets spells.
Ibbins 07-27-05, 09:12 PM	The spells per day bit still does cause problems circumvented by this variant; true, sleeing in the afternoon for spells is irrevelant; you couldn't do that before, you can't do it now. Still, with spells per day the party Wizard is likely to say "I'm out of spells, lets go home and come back tomorrow." Also, a note on the variant itself... Including the caster level in the DC doesn't make much sense. A higher level spellcaster should be capable of handling the energy demanded, and fatigue caused, by casting spells. Plus, higher caster level is often irrelevant for spell usage, meaning that higher-levels would suffer more for using the same effect as a low-level, and even where it is relevant there are frequently caps on the effect(fireball, cure spells), which presents the same problem. Other than that, good stuff.
Radkres 07-27-05, 09:20 PM	A system I have seen used. 4 level zero spells = 1 first level spell. 2 first level spells = 1 second level spell. Etc… Goes in reverse also 1 second level spell can become 2 first level Spells or 8 level 0 spells.
polt 07-28-05, 06:57 AM	I know it's spell per day, and I ment players just suddenly stopping adventuring in the middle of the afternoon, rest till next morning, just because the wizard ran out of spells. Anywho, regarding the save. I'm using 8 because 10 just got a little to high in my play tests. Regarding the spell lvl and caster lvl. It needs to be those two. Because there must be one factor in the DC calculation which grows as the wizard gets more powerful. If not, the wizard will almost never fail casting 1st and 2nd lvl spells when he's about lvl 7-8. I also need to include spell lvl, cause if not. It's gonna be the same if you're casting a 9th lvl spell or a 1st lvl spell.
polt 07-28-05, 09:37 AM	Okay, I changed the DC a bit. Now it's 6 + 1/2 caster lvl rounded down + spell lvl. Problem is, that with what I did before (8 + 1/2 spell lvl + 1/2 caster lvl) a lot of the DC's stayed the same. Actually 1st, 2nd and 3rd always had the same save. Which is stupid :)
drunkenewok 07-28-05, 09:45 AM	Regarding the spell lvl and caster lvl. It needs to be those two. Because there must be one factor in the DC calculation which grows as the wizard gets more powerful. If not, the wizard will almost never fail casting 1st and 2nd lvl spells when he's about lvl 7-8. For blasting-type spells, this probably isn't a big drawback, since the lower level blast spells don't do enough damage to really be broken. It's just the Warlock principle, in that you can plink away at an enemy all day, but for the tough battles you are better off breaking out the big guns. Buff and utility spells can make things trickier, though, unless you keep the buff durations low. I've dabbled in trying systems like this before, but I always ran into the problem of deciding which spells you can cast. Can you cast any spell you can think of? Or just one that you've studied recently? Utility spells especially get out of hand, since if you allow a wizard access to ALL the spells on the list, by the time he can make his save reliably on 2nd-3rd level spells, he completely overshadows any rogue. There's the saying that there is nothing more powerful than a prepared wizard, so you have to limit his options at least a little to keep him from overwhelming everyone else. (Unless you want to run a caster-only game, which might be fun...) One option for taking caster-level out of the DC equation would be to modify spells to the augment system used by psionics. So if you're a L1 caster, and cast magic missile, your save DC is 8 + spell level (1) = 9. If you're a L10 caster, you can cast the same magic missile for 1d4+1 damage with the same save DC (and be almost guaranteed of success), or cast a L5 equivalent magic missile that does 5d4+5 damage, and a save DC of 8 + spell level (5) = 13. (example only, you'd probably have to change it to 2 * spell level, or somesuch to make it work correctly) Admittedly, this system would require extensive retooling of the spell list, which is probably something you don't want to do. (I know I've given up on a couple magic systems because it would have required similar effort). Another option that I've tried is to give the caster a base set of spells slots usable in the normal manner (ala Sorcerer or Arcana Unearthed rules) and only require saves when exceeding this base. It allows you to make the Save DCs higher, and guarantees some "safe" casting for higher level casters before having to worry about fatigue. Other magic systems to check out, that have varying degrees of interesting bits for you to stea... er, "incorporate": Arcana Unearthed/Evolved - gives all casters the flexibility of the sorcerer Wheel of Time - uses the base slots, with high fatigue DCs to exceed the base as described above Sovereign Stone - uses a very different system, where casting higher level spells takes more time, doesn't use slots, and does have a fatigue mechanic Expanded Psionics Handbook - the augment/power point system is remarkably well balanced and allows a lot of flexibility Unearthed Arcana - a couple interesting variants, including a "recharge" variant or two, where you wait X minutes after casting spell Y before you can cast it again I'm sure I've missed a couple... In any case, good luck! :mrgreen:
ieattrollsforbreakfast 07-28-05, 04:44 PM	I agree mostly with the last post. It looks like with a bit more work the system will work pretty well, but there are some pretty fundamental problems with it. I like the idea of scaling caster-level, so a wizard can freely augment his spells as he sees fit. Also, there is the problem of how to make use of a spell-book. This system effectively removes the need for both the wizard and sorceror class. Perhaps the sorceror's spells known system will work much better than a spellbook, which will, if the wizard has enough cash, allow him access to almost every arcane spell whenever he wants.
polt 07-28-05, 05:08 PM	Okay. I'm gonna clear things about a bit, on how I'm thinking of using this system. Firstly, I almost never play with sorcs. I don't like them, my players don't like them, so that's that. Therefore I'll choose to ignore the effects this will have on the sorcerer. Another thing is, I houseruled the part about Wizards automatically getting 2 free spells every lvl. They get spells when they find them. Therefore I have some form of control over which spell the Wizard gets. Also, my idea is to apply this system to arcane casters only. Therefore clerics, druids, paladins and rangers stay the same. How does this effect things? I kinda like it, because the difference between arcane and divine casters get bigger.
drunkenewok 07-29-05, 11:24 AM	Another thing is, I houseruled the part about Wizards automatically getting 2 free spells every lvl. They get spells when they find them. If you keep a tight rein on spells available, you won't run into the situation of uber-flexible wizards. The only problem I'd see with that is that your players may attempt to circumvent your control and research their own spells, and then you'd be put in the position of having to hand down mandates against player choice, which imho is a bad thing. (Unless you forbid research, too...) Personally, I'd rather make the mechanics balanced, rather than require the DM impose balance, but to each his own. A couple of the methods I've used to get around the spells known issue: Only allow X spells (based on caster level and intelligence) to be cast at a moments notice Allow casters a X "quick-study" spells in their spellbook, which lets them take a standard action to prep a spell to be cast. Allow casters to study any spell in their book for X minutes per spell level to cast it without it being on the memorized list Each of these still give a LOT of flexibility to any book caster, but it keeps them from having access to every spell in their repertoire at once. I'd also recommend making the save either Fort or Will, instead of the higher. It won't make a lot of difference if you choose Will, since virtually every wizard will have a higher Will save than Fort save, but it makes more sense (to me, at least) for it to be something resisted by one or the other, instead of both. If you want to make it a choice, create a feat (Mind over Body?) that gives the wizard a choice. (Though it may be an bad feat in the sense that feats shouldn't be required, since virtually every wizard would want both that and Iron Will under this system). I'll also reiterate my distaste for using caster level in the DC calculations. It just goes against common sense that a L20 wizard has a harder time casting magic missile than a L1 wizard. Comparison using DC = 6 + 1/2 caster lvl (round down) + spell level L20: DC = 6 + 10 + 1 = 16 - needs a 4+ for a will-based save, or 10+ for a Fort-based save L1: DC = 6 + 0 + 1 = 7 - needs a 5+ for a will-based save, or 7+ for a Fort-based save I'll grant that the L20 wizard's spell is a good bit better than the L1, but he should be a lot better at casting it, imo. You may also need to specify a cap on what spells the wizard can effectively cast. Otherwise, if a L1 wizard comes across a copy of fireball, he can (under the current rules) cast it if he makes a DC 9 save (6 + 0 + 3). On average, he'll be able to cast the spell 6 times in short order. A good recommended cap is no spells over 1/2 caster level, round up (which is the way the current system works). Another thing you'll want to clarify is when the DCs stop increasing: If a wizard casts many spells in a short period of time, the DC increases by 1 for every second spell he casts. How short is a "short period of time"? And does the DC go up for every spell, or only for every other spell? I'd recommend changing the text to: The Save DC is increased by 1 for each spell cast during the last X rounds/minutes By increasing X, and choosing minutes instead of rounds, you can increase the difficulty for casting many spells in succession. The choice mainly depends on how powerful you want the wizard to be. You probably want to specify when the spell happens, in the case a save is failed. For instance, if Walter the Wizard casts a spell when he's exhausted, and fails his save, does the spell go off before he goes unconscious? Or does it not go off because he failed his save? Given that clerics/druids are generally considered to be more powerful than most other classes, it's probably a good thing they aren't included in this change. Finally, as to the impact on the Eberron setting: this will make casters more powerful at the lower levels, so NPC casters will be more of a threat, and you might see some balance issues among the PCs. On average, a L1 wizard with 10 Wis will be able to cast at least 6 to 8 first level spells in any given day, with 17 being the expected number, with the possibility of many more. Compare that to the hard cap of 1 or 2 under the standard rules: L1 wizard with 10 Wisdom: Will Save = +2 DC to cast first L1 spell: DC 7 (75% chance no fatigue, 75% cumulative) Second L1 spell: DC 8 (70%, 52.5% cumulative) Third L1 spell: DC 9 (65%, 17.9% cumulative) Fourth L1 spell: DC 10 (60%, 10% cumulative) Fifth L1 spell: DC 11 (55%, 6% cumulative) Sixth L1 spell: DC 12 (50%, 3% cumulative) Assuming an 8 hour casting day, and average results as above, and resting one hour to recover after being winded yields 17 spells per day. Higher than average Wisdom, feats, and/or items will only increase this. Maybe there's something useful in this extremely unorganized collection of ideas. Or at least I can hope. :)
polt 07-29-05, 12:06 PM	I'd also recommend making the save either Fort or Will, instead of the higher. The thing with this is, that it's gonna be a ***** for melee/magic users. Since they probably will focus more on strength, dex, int and con. I don't know however, if it's THAT big a deal, or if it's possible to make a Spellsword for example, or an Eldritch Knight, with it being will saves. I'll also reiterate my distaste for using caster level in the DC calculations. It just goes against common sense that a L20 wizard has a harder time casting magic missile than a L1 wizard. I know, I know. Problem is. For this system to work, you NEED to have one rising factor in calculations. If not, it's gonna be impossible for a lvl 10 wizard to fail casting magic missile, or any other 1st-3rd lvl spell. So although it may not make sense, it's a balancing issue. You may also need to specify a cap on what spells the wizard can effectively cast. Otherwise, if a L1 wizard comes across a copy of fireball, he can (under the current rules) cast it. It's the same as with the system in the PHB. He still has to look in the PHB to see what lvl spells he's able to cast. How short is a "short period of time"? And does the DC go up for every spell, or only for every other spell? I'd recommend changing the text to: You are right. So it'll be "Till he's healed one step of fatigue".
TheShark(tm) 07-29-05, 04:04 PM	I'm very curious how your system tests out, Polt. Please keep us posted. While we've got similar things in place as well, I'd love to compare notes. :)
polt 07-29-05, 04:40 PM	For sure. Of course we are starting a new party (inspired a bit from your campaign actually TheShark). So right now, I don't even know if there's gonna be a wizard. And if there is, he's gonna be lvl one. But I'm gonna take notes throughout the campaign, and I'm gonna write here what I find out.
drunkenewok 07-29-05, 05:57 PM	I know, I know. Problem is. For this system to work, you NEED to have one rising factor in calculations. If not, it's gonna be impossible for a lvl 10 wizard to fail casting magic missile, or any other 1st-3rd lvl spell. So although it may not make sense, it's a balancing issue. If you just delete the 1/2 caster level contribution, you're right. But I'd actually rather see something else in it's place. If you change the DC to 6 + 2 * spell level, you get a little bump in the lower level spells, and almost the exact same DC progression for the higher level spells. Yeah, the high level wizards will still be able to zap away with 1st level spells, but at that point the efficiency paradigm would tend to take over, and they'd be using their higher level spells anyway. I'm also of the opinion that the base number you're adding to the save is a bit low. As the statistics I presented above tend to show, you're giving a LOT more power into the hands of low level casters, and raising the number would reduce the incidence of high level blaster syndrome. As a comparison, I think one of my test systems used 10 + 2*spell level, or even 15 + 2*spell level. Granted the latter does mean you have to make a DC 33 save to cast a 9th level spell, but at L20, you could conceivably have as high as a +12 (base) +2 (Iron Will) +5 (stat) +5 (resistance) +1 (luck) = +25 Will save (and I'm sure I've missed something, a hard-core CO could do better), meaning you'd have to roll an 8 or higher. And in Eberron, you can always burn an action point to add 3.5 more to your roll (on average). You also have to remember that he can do that three times in quick succession if he's willing to suffer the fatigue side effects (which, short of full unconsciousnes, doesn't affect a wizard overmuch). The thing with this is, that it's gonna be a ***** for melee/magic users. Since they probably will focus more on strength, dex, int and con. I don't know however, if it's THAT big a deal, or if it's possible to make a Spellsword for example, or an Eldritch Knight, with it being will saves. I personally don't see a strong reason to make things easier for multiclass characters. If they are multiclassing, they are splitting their focus, and shouldn't really have the option of using whichever they prefer. If you want to make that an attribute of a specific PrC (e.g. Eldritch Knight), that's your perogative, but I wouldn't have the either/or option for the base class. You are right. So it'll be "Till he's healed one step of fatigue". So he has to be fatigued and recover before he can stop the DC climb? Or is it enough to not cast any spells within the last hour? This might be more restrictive than you really want: what happens if the caster can't get a chance to not cast spells for an hour? Theoretically, the DC could keep climbing until the caster passes out from the strain. Personally, I would think making the time frame be 10 or 20 minutes without casting a spell would be more than sufficient, a full hour feels like a lot. (Though it's possible, given your lower base DCs and the higher potential for DC climb would tend to balance the system... but I'd have to playtest the hell out of it to be sure.) Another thing to consider is how casting fatigue interacts with regular fatigue. Do the penalties stack? Or do fatigue levels stack (i.e. if you're fatigued from casting, and fatigued from some outside effect, then you're exhausted)? Given that recovery from each is different, you'll probably have to track them separately, even if the effects stack. Finally, if you think I'm being more annoying than helpful, feel free to let me know and I'll stop commenting. :) I just know from experience that building a complete casting paradigm from scratch that can be dropped into the existing D&D core rules is really hard. I have great respect for game designers, and the effort they put into their products.
polt 07-29-05, 06:05 PM	Constructive critism is always appreciated. So you are not annoying at all :)
a_psh 07-29-05, 07:49 PM	Err, I can't say anything for balance, but it feels slightly odd to me to use saves in this situation... for one, I feel like there'd be too much emphasis on save-boosting gear. How about something like a level + stat modifier check? E.g. rolling d20+level+Con (or +1/2 level +Con, or +level +Int, or whatever seems best to you) against a particular DC? Also, I encourage you to look at the way the Expanded Psionics Handbook does things (I suggest the Psionic Powers Overview on d20srd.org if you aren't familiar with 3.5e's psionics system or don't have the book handy). Basically, since that caster-level-10 magic missile is 5 times as powerful as a caster-level-1 magic missile, yes, it should maybe be a bit harder to pull off... but why not let the caster decide how much power he wants to expend? I figure a level 12 mage should be allowed to underpower his spells to save energy. While we're on the subject of psionics, a simple blurb in the ExPsiHB convinced me that the once-per-day method was a good idea: the authors made the very simple but fairly accurate claim that, unless you're really resting, like full-on "I'm asleep" resting, you don't really regain your mental energy. Staying up for hours doing nothing != sleeping, rest-wise. It convinced me. (This isn't to say you shouldn't use the system you suggest, just me pointing out the only real convincing reason not to.)
polt 07-30-05, 05:55 AM	The wizard can of course always choose to cast the spell at lower caster lvl.
Radkres 07-31-05, 04:32 PM	Have you thought about non lethal damage for every cast and the save is to see if you avoid the damage? That might be a way to show fatigue with non lethal damage when you hit zero you go down dead tired.