Post/Author/DateTime	Post
WolfBlade 02-16-07, 09:58 AM	Hey all, I'm fairly new to the Eberron setting, but I'm looking at trying it, mostly because it seems a good fun way to get new players involved in the hobby. However, I've been loath to really ruin it because there are certain aspects of the setting that I don't like (equally though, there are aspects that I really do like), so I'm wondering, would Eberron fall apart if I made a few changes; 1: the planes. to me, the planar cosmology in the ECS is just confusing and doesn't seem to add a whole lot. How easy would it be to replace this set-up with the standard great wheel set-up from a "normal" D&D campaign? 2: Dragons. I really don't like the idea that dragons (50% of the game's name) are pushed off to a far away continent and have very little interaction with the rest of the world. To me, slaying the dragon is the whole reason I wanted to play the game in the first place lol, any ideas as to how to fix this? 3: The views on alignment. Part of me likes the idea, another part of me hates the idea of a chaotic evil silver dragon. I'm thinking about sticking with the standard alignment guidelines with possibly a few very rare exceptions. Anyway, this is just what I'm thinking at the moment, anyone have any thoughts they would like to share?
Yakman 02-16-07, 10:31 AM	1: the planes. to me, the planar cosmology in the ECS is just confusing and doesn't seem to add a whole lot. How easy would it be to replace this set-up with the standard great wheel set-up from a "normal" D&D campaign? It should be rather easy. Question is: why would you want to? The 'Great Wheel' set-up is confusing and overplayed. 2: Dragons. I really don't like the idea that dragons (50% of the game's name) are pushed off to a far away continent and have very little interaction with the rest of the world. To me, slaying the dragon is the whole reason I wanted to play the game in the first place lol, any ideas as to how to fix this? There are plenty of dragons you can place in an area for the players to kill. It's just that the Dragon nation is far away--lots of dragons have setup shop in the more accessible places of the world. 3: The views on alignment. Part of me likes the idea, another part of me hates the idea of a chaotic evil silver dragon. I'm thinking about sticking with the standard alignment guidelines with possibly a few very rare exceptions. Go right ahead. It's your campaign. :)
Syltorian 02-16-07, 10:34 AM	1: the planes. to me, the planar cosmology in the ECS is just confusing and doesn't seem to add a whole lot. How easy would it be to replace this set-up with the standard great wheel set-up from a "normal" D&D campaign? You would have to change a good number of things to integrate the Great Wheel: First, there are the Manifest Zones. Sharn's manifest zone helps its buildings to float (elsewhere, they would just fall down), but it also gives it a high concentration of Radiant Idols (fallen celestials), both of which have links to Syrania. The great wheel would most likely need two planes to reflect this: The Elemental Plane of Air, and Celestia. There are other important zones. The elven city of the dead is built on an Irian manifest zone; Greenheart on one of Lamannia, and the Twilight Demesne leads straight to Thelanis. All this would have to be done away with, or changed into some much less flavourful explanation of random magical effects. Second, there is history. Eberron was invaded twice by forces from other planes: Dal Quor first, and then Xoriat. Of course, you can add a Dreamscape and a Far Realm to the Great Wheel; but important parts of the campaign setting revolve around these planes not being able to come coterminous anymore. If the Plane of Dreams was never really part of the Great Wheel, what are the Inspired conspiring for? What are the Gatekeeper seals good for? Third, there is religion. There is no Dollurh in the Great Wheel, and souls go to the plane that matches their alignment - assuming you take the gods away from the planes. Now the Blood of Vol is basically left without a cause: their entire religion is built on the fact that they do not want to go to Dollurh after they die. If there was an actual chance of ending up on Celestia or Elysium, why would they complain? 2: Dragons. I really don't like the idea that dragons (50% of the game's name) are pushed off to a far away continent and have very little interaction with the rest of the world. To me, slaying the dragon is the whole reason I wanted to play the game in the first place lol, any ideas as to how to fix this? That one is simple. Not all the dragons live on Argonessen. There are a number of agents of the Chamber around, and some rogue dragons, too. Want to slay a dragon? Go ahead; there is a rather frightening one in Q'Barra. Just be careful what you unleash if you slay him, as he guards something even worse. Want to just slay the dragon and take the hoard? That too is possible. Dragons as antagonists appear in several of the novels; for instance, the last in the Mark of Death series, there is such a one in the Mror Holds. There is also no reason that there can be no dragon forcing a remote settlement in the Shadow Marches to over their maidens to such a beast - it could hide an entire conspiracy, or just be a plain slay-the-dragon story. What you need to remember here is that the dragons are as different from each other as humans are. You get good ones and bad ones, the greedy, lazy, lie-on-the-hoard ones and the reclusive ones sitting in their Argonessen observatories and looking at the stars. You can also mix things. Maybe the dragon is requiring dragonmarked sacrifices because it wants to study them, and its hoard consists of several tons of siberys shards. 3: The views on alignment. Part of me likes the idea, another part of me hates the idea of a chaotic evil silver dragon. I'm thinking about sticking with the standard alignment guidelines with possibly a few very rare exceptions. Visceral reactions, such as simply not being comfortable with a CE Silver, are difficult to argue away. Perhaps the easiest would be simply not to use a chaotic evil silver dragon in your game, without denying the possibility that they exist. That is, characters will not be able to say: "it's a metallic, so it's good", because there are no such distinctions. But those individuals who actually appear in your story are good, as that is easier for you to live with. Personally, I find that the freedom of alignment gives the dragons a much greater personality and identity. They are not somehow frozen into their behaviours, but they are free-willed beings. I always found that forcing an alignment on a creature like a dragon (unlike an outsider not an embodiment of an idea) somehow lessens it. It's suppremely powerful and intelligent, but has no independant capacity for ethical reasoning?
SSj3goblin 02-16-07, 11:08 AM	Hey all, I'm fairly new to the Eberron setting, but I'm looking at trying it, mostly because it seems a good fun way to get new players involved in the hobby. However, I've been loath to really ruin it because there are certain aspects of the setting that I don't like (equally though, there are aspects that I really do like), so I'm wondering, would Eberron fall apart if I made a few changes; 1: the planes. to me, the planar cosmology in the ECS is just confusing and doesn't seem to add a whole lot. How easy would it be to replace this set-up with the standard great wheel set-up from a "normal" D&D campaign? 2: Dragons. I really don't like the idea that dragons (50% of the game's name) are pushed off to a far away continent and have very little interaction with the rest of the world. To me, slaying the dragon is the whole reason I wanted to play the game in the first place lol, any ideas as to how to fix this? 3: The views on alignment. Part of me likes the idea, another part of me hates the idea of a chaotic evil silver dragon. I'm thinking about sticking with the standard alignment guidelines with possibly a few very rare exceptions. Anyway, this is just what I'm thinking at the moment, anyone have any thoughts they would like to share? Don't play Eberron. What you are saying sounds to me like someone who just discovered Dark Sun and said: "Well, the setting looks good and all and it's really interesting. But does it have to take place in the desert? There should be more water. Also, what about magic? I thought D&D was about magic, how can I put more magic in Dark Sun.". The planes of Eberron, not matter how badly defined have shaped the world trough their interactions and the unpredictable alignements are a key feature of the setting. Cleary, it's not a setting to look for when your game consists of killing Red dragons (who kidnapped a princess).
Syltorian 02-16-07, 11:53 AM	Cleary, it's not a setting to look for when your game consists of killing Red dragons (who kidnapped a princess). Actually, I think the Eberron is a much more logical place for red dragons who kidnap princesses than any other setting I can think of. The dragons of Eberron are political players and they seek to guide/manipulate the prophecy. Some are rogues, others are agents, and yet others are quite mad. All give them reasons to kidnap the royal (or other prophecy-wise important) maiden. Maybe she is needed to fulfill a part of the prophecy, or prevent another from coming true? Perhaps he needs a special kind of victim as an ingredient for a spell? Perhaps he seeks to pressure the king / dragonmarked baron / village leader into a deal. Perhaps, like the Q'Barran dragon, he believes he may ascend to godhood if enough people offer sacrifices to him. In other campaigns, you always end up with the unanswered question "do virgins taste better than those who are not" (http://www.thebards.net/music/lyrics/Do_Virgins_Taste_Better.shtml), but Eberron actually offers a lot of reasons for why a dragon would behave in this manner, beyond needing some help to polish the coins of the hoard. Rather than not using the setting, you just need to give it a different twist from the "dragon = monster" view. An Eberron dragon capturing a princess has actually something in mind, but he can do it easily enough. As for games focusing on hunting dragons who may not have captured the princess yet: well, the Lords of Dust could be patrons of such expeditions. They have hated the dragons for ages. A dragon himself might turn to some mortals to get rid of rivals or rogues, if he cannot do so openly himself. The Mosaic Cabinet, who believe that the Draconic Prophecy eventually leads to the end of the world, might begin to target dragons to delay it. Factions amongst the Valenar elves believe that the war against the dragons should be re-started, and advocate an invasion of Argonessen. Elements of the Blood of Vol who know about Erandis might want vengeance for the destruction of the house. These are but a few possibilities; I am sure there are more if one keeps looking.
tallric_kruush 02-16-07, 12:04 PM	Hey all, I'm fairly new to the Eberron setting, but I'm looking at trying it, mostly because it seems a good fun way to get new players involved in the hobby. However, I've been loath to really ruin it because there are certain aspects of the setting that I don't like (equally though, there are aspects that I really do like), so I'm wondering, would Eberron fall apart if I made a few changes; I have a million reasons moving through my mind right now as to why you should give Eberron a chance before changing it. I also am suffering from the flu and can't muster the energy to articulate them. Thankfully, some of our fellows don't seem to be so handicapped at the moment. The posts above make valid points. Syltorian, specifically, articulated some of the thoughts I had. Well said, mate. If you're one who enjoys reading novels as much as gaming, check out a couple of the Eberron novels. "The Dreaming Dark" series from Eberron's creator Keith Baker, and "The Dragon Below" series by Don Bassingthwaite are two of the most entertaining series I've ever enjoyed. Between them they will give you some insight into the locales, villains (big and small), politics, etc... of the setting as experienced through the eyes of some very well done characters. They will likely help you see how some of these differences that make you uncomfortable are actually what make Eberron tick. Sorry, back on topic.:P Please give Eberron a chance as is. If you make the changes you're talking about, the game is still certainly playable; but you're not really experiencing Eberron. This setting is something fresh and new. A new cosmology. New takes on religion and magic. A more real-to-life alignment system. All these things make the setting very enjoyable to me. You can always jump back into Greyhawk or the Realms if you get a hankering for the old flavours. Those games haven't gone away. They just have a new counterpart standing beside them now. Eberron, to me, is a breath of fresh air long overdue to DnD.
tallric_kruush 02-16-07, 12:10 PM	Personally, I find that the freedom of alignment gives the dragons a much greater personality and identity. They are not somehow frozen into their behaviours, but they are free-willed beings. I always found that forcing an alignment on a creature like a dragon (unlike an outsider not an embodiment of an idea) somehow lessens it. It's suppremely powerful and intelligent, but has no independant capacity for ethical reasoning? For this very reason (and a few others), I feel that Eberron is the only setting that truly does the dragons justice. Also, perfect response to the idea that dragons in Eberron don't interact with the other denizens of the world. I feel like they have a bigger impact in Eberron than in any other game world in which I've played. The dragons don't just sit back on Argonessen getting fat and sleeping on hoards (though maybe a few slouches do). They can be the real movers-and-shakers of the world. Some of them may be mere observers of the Draconic Prophecy, but many may very well try to influence events and shape the Prophecy to match their plans. If the dragons seem aloof, it's merely because everyone else is beneath them. They are the children of the Progenitors that created Eberron. The world itself is named after the dragons, and in a sense is the dragon Eberron. In my mind (and games), the players are no less likely to encounter draconic attempts at observing or influencing the prophecy than they are to run afoul the Emerald Claw, or fall into a plot of the Lords of Dust (the ultimate enemies of the dragons in modern Eberron). The Draconic Prophecy, dragonmarks, dragonshards, the dragons above, below, and in between.... The dragons are more crucial to the history and present of the world of Eberron than they are to any other DnD setting, in my opinion. You could remove dragons from FR, for instance, and still have the bulk of the Realms intact. If you remove the dragons from Eberron, what's left?
tallric_kruush 02-17-07, 11:58 AM	Wonder what decision our friend WolfBlade came to?
WolfBlade 02-17-07, 03:03 PM	Well all I can say is thanks for the input everyone. I will admit my knowledge of the setting is limited to just the core book (I don't really feel the need to buy another catalogue worth of prestige classes and the like, though I may purchase one or two of the other books) so this is where, for example, I have gained my views on Eberron's dragons. The book as far as I can tell has very little to say on dragons as a whole, merely stating that they are strange, mysterious and live very far away (I don't have the book to hand to check the exact wording). However it seems that they are just as interfering and troublesome as the dragons of other worlds (Dragonlance is a big favourite of mine lol) so that makes me happier about them. As for my changing of the planar system, I just hoped that it would be easier than learning a whole new set of complicated relationships. If the cosmology is as integral to the setting as you all say then I shall of course stick with it and just live with the headache lol. The alignment thing was, as someone said purely down to taste and certainly isn't something that would affect my views on the world as a whole. As a fan of most of the D&D related book ranges I find the most interesting characters they portray to be those who defy the norm of their respective races and such and this is usually what sets them apart (and no I am not going to say the D name...). I haven't read any of the Eberron novels, since they are more than a little hard to come by in my little country, so I don't know how the alignment changes come across in them. I suppose the easiest thing to do would be to simply not pay it any attention and get on with things.
WolfBlade 02-17-07, 03:09 PM	As an added thought, since you guys seem so knowledgeable, how important are psionics to the setting? I don't really fancy using them because I don't want to fork out for another book (plus I know one of my potential players will try to turn i into a superhero campaign lol) so what would happen if I just ignored the Inspired and the Kalashtar and kind of coughed a lot when people ask about them?
tallric_kruush 02-17-07, 03:12 PM	Glad to hear you're thinking to stick with the setting, no matter what changes you make. I'd definitely agree you don't need to run out and buy a bunch of supplements right away. While I have the majority of them, they are often contradictory with the ECS and each other, and wouldn't necessarily help much in learning the setting. You might gain the most from the Dragonshards articles in the Eberron archives. If I remember correctly most, if not all, are authored or coauthored by Keith Baker himself. You can find them here. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archeb/ds As a lover of all things dragon, you might read "The Role of Dragons" and "The Draconic Prophecy articles first. Enjoy, mate.
Edymnion 02-17-07, 03:15 PM	3: The views on alignment. Part of me likes the idea, another part of me hates the idea of a chaotic evil silver dragon. I'm thinking about sticking with the standard alignment guidelines with possibly a few very rare exceptions.You do realize that, with the exception of alignment subtype outsiders, the default game's alignments for creatures are not absolute either, right? Even if a monster entry says "Always Chaotic Evil", you can find Lawful Good versions of the same creature, they are just rare. You can find Chaotic Evil Silver Dragons in Greyhawk and Faerun if you look for them, its just that there are a *LOT* more dragons that fit the stereotype than there are that break them. Eberron just takes the existing alignment rules for creatures and relaxes them a step.
tallric_kruush 02-17-07, 03:18 PM	As an added thought, since you guys seem so knowledgeable, how important are psionics to the setting? I don't really fancy using them because I don't want to fork out for another book (plus I know one of my potential players will try to turn i into a superhero campaign lol) so what would happen if I just ignored the Inspired and the Kalashtar and kind of coughed a lot when people ask about them? The Kalashtar are a great new race with an intriguing history and culture, but they're relatively few in number. If you decided not to allow them as a playable race for the time being, it wouldn't derail your Eberron campaign. There have even been articles (maybe in the archives) about how to use them even if you don't have/use XPH. With time (and a little of the ever too limited $$) you may end up drawn in by the Kalashtar story and end up buying XPH.
Wren 02-17-07, 04:07 PM	Well all I can say is thanks for the input everyone. I will admit my knowledge of the setting is limited to just the core book (I don't really feel the need to buy another catalogue worth of prestige classes and the like, though I may purchase one or two of the other books) so this is where, for example, I have gained my views on Eberron's dragons. The book as far as I can tell has very little to say on dragons as a whole, merely stating that they are strange, mysterious and live very far away (I don't have the book to hand to check the exact wording). However it seems that they are just as interfering and troublesome as the dragons of other worlds (Dragonlance is a big favourite of mine lol) so that makes me happier about them. As for my changing of the planar system, I just hoped that it would be easier than learning a whole new set of complicated relationships. If the cosmology is as integral to the setting as you all say then I shall of course stick with it and just live with the headache lol. The alignment thing was, as someone said purely down to taste and certainly isn't something that would affect my views on the world as a whole. As a fan of most of the D&D related book ranges I find the most interesting characters they portray to be those who defy the norm of their respective races and such and this is usually what sets them apart (and no I am not going to say the D name...). I haven't read any of the Eberron novels, since they are more than a little hard to come by in my little country, so I don't know how the alignment changes come across in them. I suppose the easiest thing to do would be to simply not pay it any attention and get on with things. The planer system... at least to me... is a system that is easier to understand than the standard "great wheel". The system is based more on a "real-life" model of a solar system. Look for the lovely planer tool that was released on the WotC D&D main page some time ago. That tool gives you a great view of how the planes interact. The ECS goes so far as to say that you need not worry about keeping exact track of where everything is... if you don't want to... and to just have the planes operate as is most convient to you for your plot. This makes the planes very easy to use. The ECS can give you allot of knowledge about the world of Eberron. I've found that the best way to gain the "total" picture... is to read the ECS from cover to cover almost like a novel. If you find that you do have an extra $40 to spend... you can get on amazon.com and pick up both the Players Guide to Eberron and Five Nations. Both of these books do allot to expand upon the understanding about Eberron you gain from your cover to cover read of the ECS (Eberron Campaign Setting).
tallric_kruush 02-17-07, 04:19 PM	The planer system... at least to me... is a system that is easier to understand than the standard "great wheel". The system is based more on a "real-life" model of a solar system. Look for the lovely planer tool that was released on the WotC D&D main page some time ago. That tool gives you a great view of how the planes interact. The ECS goes so far as to say that you need not worry about keeping exact track of where everything is... if you don't want to... and to just have the planes operate as is most convient to you for your plot. This makes the planes very easy to use. I agree. Honestly, only recently have I even begun considering the planes much at all (I guess I should note here that I've been on this Eberron train from the first stop). I've always been aware of their presence and influence in the setting, but only recently have I been spinning ideas in my head on how that might influence future games. I should probably make notes or I'll forget anything worthwhile I've thought of.... The point is, the planar cosmology of Eberron is different, but not complicated. It has an undeniably huge impact on the setting, but one that need not ever intrude upon your current game. Yes, kingdoms have been toppled by extraplanar invaders in the past, but what does that have to do with the Emerald Claw's current scheme?? (Nothing, unless you want it to!)
PoeticJustice 02-17-07, 04:32 PM	As an added thought, since you guys seem so knowledgeable, how important are psionics to the setting? I don't really fancy using them because I don't want to fork out for another book (plus I know one of my potential players will try to turn i into a superhero campaign lol) so what would happen if I just ignored the Inspired and the Kalashtar and kind of coughed a lot when people ask about them? http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20060925a That links to an article on Psionics. It'll give an overview on how important it is to the setting and guidlines for replacing the psi system with Vancian casting.
WolfBlade 02-17-07, 05:15 PM	Cheers for that link, that should be quite helpful
Kinger 02-17-07, 05:19 PM	An alternative to trying to replace psionics with traditional spells or whatever is to just, well, ignore it. The predominant psionic elements of Eberron are the Kalashtar and the Dreaming Dark, both based out of the continent of Sarlona. The former are exceedingly rare, relatively insular, and difficult to tell apart from humans, so you don't really ever need to bring them up if you don't want to. The Dreaming Dark are the ultimate in subtle manipulation. There could be all sorts of Quori schemes going on, but if they don't happen to directly affect the PCs, chances are there's no reason at all for our intrepid heroes to know about them. Sarlona, finally, is far away, xenophobic, and let's face it: The PCs don't have to go there if you, the DM, don't want them to.
Ricohard_Draconis 02-17-07, 06:00 PM	or if the only stumbling block is buying the XPH, and I can certainly relate to that. Take a look at the SRD which includes the psionic rules. You don't have to use them but they might be interesting.
Ventifax 02-17-07, 10:35 PM	I've been in Eberron campaigns that pretty much ignored psionics, planes, & the rest. There's enough to do just intriguing around Khorvaire or exploring Xen'drik.
Wren 02-17-07, 10:46 PM	Yes! This is of course the beauty of Dungeons and Dragons in general... you only need to include as much... or as little... of anything you want. I agree that you can easily just ignore... without having to change at all... material from Eberron that you do not want to include. Focus just on events within the city of Sharn if you want. Sharn is effectively so vast... that you can have encounters of nearly any type you want within its confines. An entire city campaign if you want.
tallric_kruush 02-17-07, 10:48 PM	Focus just on events within the city of Sharn if you want. Sharn is effectively so vast... that you can have encounters of nearly any type you want within its confines. An entire city campaign if you want. Nice point. Very much what Monte Cook did with "Ptolus". There's more than enough to keep a group busy in Sharn, without their ever having to leave.
dunkeykong 02-18-07, 12:27 AM	Don't play Eberron. What you are saying sounds to me like someone who just discovered Dark Sun and said: "Well, the setting looks good and all and it's really interesting. But does it have to take place in the desert? There should be more water. Also, what about magic? I thought D&D was about magic, how can I put more magic in Dark Sun.". The planes of Eberron, not matter how badly defined have shaped the world trough their interactions and the unpredictable alignements are a key feature of the setting. Cleary, it's not a setting to look for when your game consists of killing Red dragons (who kidnapped a princess). I agree, couldnt have said it better myself.
tallric_kruush 02-19-07, 11:55 AM	I agree, couldnt have said it better myself. We gotta be careful, though, pushing people away from Eberron. Initially it is very different from every other setting--the settings longtime gamers are used to playing. You can see how the different suggestions above seem to have kept our buddy WolfBlade on board, though. Some longtime gamers just need a few extra minutes, er, weeks to get used to Eberron. It's definitely crafted from a different mold (or "creation pattern", if I might be so corny).
SSj3goblin 02-19-07, 01:07 PM	We gotta be careful, though, pushing people away from Eberron. Initially it is very different from every other setting--the settings longtime gamers are used to playing. You can see how the different suggestions above seem to have kept our buddy WolfBlade on board, though. Some longtime gamers just need a few extra minutes, er, weeks to get used to Eberron. It's definitely crafted from a different mold (or "creation pattern", if I might be so corny). I did not mean to "push him away" from Eberron, if I have such power. But looking only at the propositions the OP made, he wouldn't be playing Eberron but some sort of modification/homebrew based on the ECS. I think the OP should only take the time to think about it, I had reticences too before using Eberron, it's normal but in time he will (probably, depending on his tastes) grow to love the setting for its differences, not turn it into a predictable Greyhawk like setting with airships and ROBOTS.
tallric_kruush 02-19-07, 02:07 PM	I did not mean to "push him away" from Eberron, if I have such power. But looking only at the propositions the OP made, he wouldn't be playing Eberron but some sort of modification/homebrew based on the ECS. I think the OP should only take the time to think about it, I had reticences too before using Eberron, it's normal but in time he will (probably, depending on his tastes) grow to love the setting for its differences, not turn it into a predictable Greyhawk like setting with airships and ROBOTS. Understood. I think Eberron definitely took a while for everyone to get used to, whether we were on board from the beginning and had familiarized ourselves to a degree through the long "Gearing up" build-up, or we just jumped in within the last year. And you're right, I doubt any one voice has that much power.:)
dunkeykong 02-19-07, 03:10 PM	I did not mean to "push him away" from Eberron, if I have such power. But looking only at the propositions the OP made, he wouldn't be playing Eberron but some sort of modification/homebrew based on the ECS. I think the OP should only take the time to think about it, I had reticences too before using Eberron, it's normal but in time he will (probably, depending on his tastes) grow to love the setting for its differences, not turn it into a predictable Greyhawk like setting with airships and ROBOTS. I HATED Eberron at first, I thought it looked ridiculous and was another attempt by WOTC to get us to spend more money. It took several weeks of my DM pushing me to finally sit down and absorb Eberron and several more weeks of playng in Eberron to actually start to like it. I can understand the OP's hesitance to get into it, but if you absorb all that Eberron has to offer(via the ECS and supplements and the novels) youll see that its completley worth it. I would suggest you go down to Borders or Barnes and Noble, pick up several Eberron supplements and read through them.
tallric_kruush 02-19-07, 03:19 PM	There's also a wealth of interesting info in the Dragonshards articles and the like. People can really get a feel for Eberron from digging into those. I know we dropped a couple links above for the OP of this thread.
WolfBlade 02-20-07, 06:06 AM	All of your help has certainly been much appreciated, and is part of the reason I'm trying to stick with it all lol. I've started reading through all the articles on the website and I'm enjoying getting a bit more depth to the setting. As for going out and buying several Eberron supplements I doubt I'll be doing that. First off I certainly dont have the pennies spare to do that, secondly I've never felt that supplements of this nature to be much use for people who don't want a load of useless prestige classes and feats. That's just a personal opinion but I'd rather build and develop the setting myself from the corebook - I've bought several FR supplements and they've mostly turned out to be fairly useless.
Kid SixXx 02-21-07, 07:18 AM	I've bought several FR supplements and they've mostly turned out to be fairly useless. Which ones? Powers of Faerun probably explains how governments run better than most middle school civics books that I've read. I'd consider it to be a must-read for any gamer's library.
dunkeykong 02-21-07, 03:05 PM	All of your help has certainly been much appreciated, and is part of the reason I'm trying to stick with it all lol. I've started reading through all the articles on the website and I'm enjoying getting a bit more depth to the setting. As for going out and buying several Eberron supplements I doubt I'll be doing that. First off I certainly dont have the pennies spare to do that, secondly I've never felt that supplements of this nature to be much use for people who don't want a load of useless prestige classes and feats. That's just a personal opinion but I'd rather build and develop the setting myself from the corebook - I've bought several FR supplements and they've mostly turned out to be fairly useless. precisley, thats why i suggested just reading through them. Im the same way, I am one penniless Mo-Fo. Use Barnes and Noble as a library just read them there, I suggested it more for RP fluff as opposed to official rules.
WolfBlade 02-21-07, 05:12 PM	Ah well, You have the blessing of having shops that stock rpg books, I dont have the luxury of such a thing, its buying off the internet or not at all. Despite this tough, I've ordered the Sharn sourcebook - since I'll prbly be starting a campaign there with the forgotten forge adventure it seemed like a good choice, and should hopefully give me an idea of what the other sourcebooks are like.
tallric_kruush 02-23-07, 02:04 PM	Which ones? Powers of Faerun probably explains how governments run better than most middle school civics books that I've read. I'd consider it to be a must-read for any gamer's library. And yet for every useful FR supplement, there seems to be 5 or 6 'Underdarks'...:yuck: Good to here you're digging into the articles on the site, WolfBlade. I doubt you'll need anything else for a good long while. The Sharn: CoT supplement is by far one of the best, and you made a good choice in picking it up. I have 7 Eberron supplements so far, and have managed to avoid the stinkers. I'll avoid naming those stinkers, since I don't want to start a flame war. "Underdark" is such a bad supplement that I take it as my duty to make sure no one ever makes the same mistake I made ever again. Also, I'm less likely to be flamed on the Eberron board for downing a FR supplement. ;)
PoeticJustice 02-23-07, 03:46 PM	Ah well, You have the blessing of having shops that stock rpg books, I dont have the luxury of such a thing, its buying off the internet or not at all. Despite this tough, I've ordered the Sharn sourcebook - since I'll prbly be starting a campaign there with the forgotten forge adventure it seemed like a good choice, and should hopefully give me an idea of what the other sourcebooks are like. Good luck with your new campaign, and don't let anybody push you around. Regardless of what the books state or some members of this forum think, it's your campaign. In three years I've been with 4 different gaming groups. Each one came to switch to Eberron pretty enthusiastically and it's been a blast ever since. I hope you have the same experience. Do keep in mind that all Eberron supplements are (regretfully) not like Sharn. Honestly the closest they've come to duplicating the feel is Secrets of Sarlona, and that relies on psi material quite a bit. If you are looking for another really great supplement with a very distinct feel, try the Explorer's Handbook next. If that's not your scene then try Five Nations instead.
Macrovore 02-23-07, 04:18 PM	All of your help has certainly been much appreciated, and is part of the reason I'm trying to stick with it all lol. I've started reading through all the articles on the website and I'm enjoying getting a bit more depth to the setting. As for going out and buying several Eberron supplements I doubt I'll be doing that. First off I certainly dont have the pennies spare to do that, secondly I've never felt that supplements of this nature to be much use for people who don't want a load of useless prestige classes and feats. That's just a personal opinion but I'd rather build and develop the setting myself from the corebook - I've bought several FR supplements and they've mostly turned out to be fairly useless. most of the eberron books are suprisingly sparse in game content. Most of it is info about the setting, adventure sites and ideas, and NPCs. The only one that has a LOT of rules content is Magic of Eberron. I highly recommend Five Nations, Player's guide to Eberron, and Explorer's Handbook.
tallric_kruush 02-23-07, 04:41 PM	most of the eberron books are suprisingly sparse in game content. Most of it is info about the setting, adventure sites and ideas, and NPCs. The only one that has a LOT of rules content is Magic of Eberron. I highly recommend Five Nations, Player's guide to Eberron, and Explorer's Handbook. I'm curious as to what in Explorer's Handbook makes it's worthwhile. I only glanced in it and decided it was an overpriced turd. Sadly, I've seen others express the same opinion on these boards. I would gladly be enlightened, since I'm always eager to spend $$ I don't have on new supplements. What am I missing with EH?
Macrovore 02-23-07, 05:55 PM	EH is gold for DMs in eberron. It gives rules for airships and lightning rails, and gives a metric ass-ton of cool adventure sites, complete with encounter tables. It also details the Wayfinders, and gives more general tips about travel in all of Eberron (not just Khorvaire). I intend to use it a lot in my airship campaign.
PoeticJustice 02-23-07, 06:35 PM	It's the pulp treatment of the setting. There are sidebars on racism, surviving slavery, escaping drow, and others which all accomplish the Indiana-Jones feel I like to have in my games, more so than in any other product to date. The prestige classes are controversial, and a couple of the more vocal members of this forum don't like one in particular, but I'd match the Thunder Guide prestige class in coolness against anything printed in the line. It may not be the most powerful, but it is super cool. It's got Thunvarch, who puts forth a very cool foreward on why people should go out and adventure on Eberron. The adventure sites are a grab bag of fun ideas that pretty much lets you whip up exploration adventures on the spot or inject a cool scene in your campaign. Also, it didn't really follow a set pattern in the product line, which is something I value. Everybody knew they were going to do a book on Sarlona and Xen'Drik and the 5 nations. We know they'll eventually get around to making a book about the rest of Khorvaire. But making a book about traveling around a new setting was both fun and relatively original. That's why it's one of the few books I didn't purge from my collection last year.
Macrovore 02-23-07, 06:46 PM	i agree wholeheartedly. It is one of my favorite all-time DnD books. Stormwrack is freakin' awesome, too. the cool thing is that EH incorporates the stormwrack ship rules. but poeticjustice, what did you mean by purging your collection?
Cifer 02-23-07, 07:40 PM	Also, I'm less likely to be flamed on the Eberron board for downing a FR supplement. Hail Tallric, for he speaketh truth! As for going out and buying several Eberron supplements I doubt I'll be doing that. First off I certainly dont have the pennies spare to do that, secondly I've never felt that supplements of this nature to be much use for people who don't want a load of useless prestige classes and feats. That's just a personal opinion but I'd rather build and develop the setting myself from the corebook - I've bought several FR supplements and they've mostly turned out to be fairly useless. To go on with it: Yeah, now, that's FR... The suggestions other made are quite valid, though I would add Dragonmarked to the cool-expansion list. The "mega corporations" of Eberron are definitely fun if one wants to play with them. The thing about the planes has also been explained quite well: The system is integral to Eberron, but it isn't really complex. Here's what I know of the planes, which to the day has been enough for me: Daanvi: Perfect Order. Dal Quor: Real of dreams, origin of the Quori, who have taken over Sarlona. Can't become cotermious anymore because of some major mojo in the past during which the giants used dragon magic to defend against a Quori invasion. Oh, and the plane periodically kills all its inhabitants, which the Quori seek to avert. Dolurrh: Plane of Death. Basically Oblivion - death, at least in the first stages, holds no rewards or punishments, only oblivion, which slowly swallows all memories of the Dead and is the reason why getting people out of it is hard. Fernia: Pretty bad fire plane. Think traditional Hell, just a little less evil. Irian: More or less new-age paradise, with life blooming everywhere Kythri: Limbo Lamannia: Tree-hugger plane Mabar: Plane of goths. A bit of negative energy and some undead Risia: Ice plane. Also slightly evil. Shavarath: perpetual war Archons vs. devils vs. demons. Syrania: Heaven, with angels and a lot of air Thelanis: Land of the Fey Xoriat: Realm of Madness and Things With Tentacles. Due to some major mojo (this time, from the orcs) unable to become cotermious.
dunkeykong 02-23-07, 08:48 PM	most of the eberron books are suprisingly sparse in game content. Most of it is info about the setting, adventure sites and ideas, and NPCs. The only one that has a LOT of rules content is Magic of Eberron. I highly recommend Five Nations, Player's guide to Eberron, and Explorer's Handbook. Truthfully, I have yet to see a bad Eberron supplement.
Macrovore 02-23-07, 08:59 PM	agreed. I simply stated my favorites.
Wren 02-23-07, 11:21 PM	As many others have vouched... Five Nations and the Players Guide to Eberron are both very good books for expanding your knowledge of Eberron. They contain very little PrC's or feats... and most of thier pages are devoted to expanding the game world. However... even then... the few PrC's included in Five nations (one per nation) are very much tied in flavor to the nations in question. So, IMHO, they are a valid use of pages. The PGtE, is kinda like a "Light" version of the ECS. It includes information that would be widely known by everyone. Thus, your players can pick up on some of the flavor of Eberron, without gaining something you'd rather they not know. It also expands upon material from the ECS. Both are worth a look-over in a gaming store or book store, if the chance presents itself.
PoeticJustice 02-24-07, 01:51 PM	but poeticjustice, what did you mean by purging your collection? A year ago I decided I was fed up with looking at so many books. I felt paralyzed by all the options I had available to me and vaguely angry at the material I didn't agree with, so I sold Races of Eberron, 5 Nations, Magic of Eberron, Player's guide to Eberron, and a bunch of core books. I skipped Dragonmarked and Faiths of Eberron because I felt they weren't worth the money. My Eberron library now includes three copies of the campaign setting, Secrets of Sarlona, Secrets of Xen'drik, Explorer's Handbook, and Sharn: City of Towers.
Wren 02-24-07, 01:58 PM	A year ago I decided I was fed up with looking at so many books. I felt paralyzed by all the options I had available to me and vaguely angry at the material I didn't agree with, so I sold Races of Eberron, 5 Nations, Magic of Eberron, Player's guide to Eberron, and a bunch of core books. I skipped Dragonmarked and Faiths of Eberron because I felt they weren't worth the money. My Eberron library now includes three copies of the campaign setting, Secrets of Sarlona, Secrets of Xen'drik, Explorer's Handbook, and Sharn: City of Towers. I'm sorry to learn you feel this way. I myself prefer to have as many options as possible. However, because I run the campaign, I know that I can limit what books are usable, thus allowing only certain aspects into any game I run. I like knowing that the options are there if I decide I need them, yet, knowing that I can ignore whatever I feel does not fit the current campaign idea. Of course... I also suffer from being a bibleophile. I just love having books, and thus my own library is massive.
tallric_kruush 02-24-07, 02:38 PM	I'd like to thank all of you who gave feedback on Explorer's Handbook. I'm so conditioned to bad and contradictory supplements that maybe I judged it too quickly. I'll have to check it again the next time I see it. One problem I have seen with the Eberron supplements is that they are riddled with contradictions. Is that unique to Eberron's stuff? No way. Is it still annoying? Absolutely. Before anyone is allowed to work on a supplement, they should be required to actually study the Campaign Setting and get some kind of grasp on the world. If you're writing on the Faiths of Eberron, you should at least try to have your material agree with the ECS, for instance. (That's no dig at FoE. I don't even own it. I just needed an example). The other gripe I have is the force-feeding of all these alternate races. I don't mind if a sidebar suggests where the such-and-such race of blue monkeys might live in Xen'drik, but please put it in a sidebar. I don't want it in the main paragraphs, confusing my players. Maybe I think the Races of... books are poop and don't want those races in my game. (Again, just an example. I don't own any of the Races books.) One of the coolest things about Eberron, to me, was that it did away with the hundreds of subraces and bizarre peripheral races that I seemed to be swimming in with FR. I wish Wizards would keep their Races of... marketing restricted to sidebars. Other than that, I can't really complain about any of the supplements. Most have been solid. A few have been gems (S:CoT, SoS, and SoX).
PoeticJustice 02-24-07, 03:14 PM	I'm sorry to learn you feel this way. I myself prefer to have as many options as possible. However, because I run the campaign, I know that I can limit what books are usable, thus allowing only certain aspects into any game I run. I like knowing that the options are there if I decide I need them, yet, knowing that I can ignore whatever I feel does not fit the current campaign idea. Of course... I also suffer from being a bibleophile. I just love having books, and thus my own library is massive. Pragmatically, I view the books as the means to an end: a fun game. If the end required me to ditch Eberron entirely, I'd do it. So I don't possess any scruples about having more options than I need for the sake of completion. But, I recognize that plenty of people don't feel the same way as I, and anything you do to have fun is okay by me. I do, however, strongly recommend having more than one copy of the ECS at the table. None of my players had a copy, but I still really wanted an Eberron game, so I bit the bullet and bought another two copies for general table use. They've ended up being far more useful than any of the options I got from the books I sold. EDIT: I guess what I'm saying is: don't feel sorry for me. I don't need that other stuff, anyway.