Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Harmony's Sorrow 05-20-04, 07:27 PM	"The world was reduced in size, simply because it had to be -- as is, we are fighting to squeeze all of the nations and groups into the 360 page book... In the original setting there were well-developed aquatic nations and politics, and that's something that has been dropped -- which isn't to say that they aren't out there, but they don't have the same level of interaction with the surface world." I just read this, and I presume it was said by Keith Baker. That really upsets me. Already the world is getting toned back for one stupid reason or another. I thought it was 320 pages. Why couldn't it be left at 360... heck, maybe push it up to 400. I woulda payed an extra 5... $10 for this to have been done right, per se. I mean, a video game these days is $50. If the Eberron CSB had been $50, I woulda payed it happily, because I'd get far more hours out of that than any video game ever! PLEASE Keith, tell WotC for us... NO MORE EBERRON CROPPING! And, I'll be dying to see the expansion book that covers everything else in Eberron that got cut. I'll buy it almost as happily as I would have bought the "Uncut" CSB for $50. Me.
Kesh 05-20-04, 10:24 PM	Maybe you would pay the $50. Most folks are wincing at the $40 price it's likely to end up at, and plenty of others simply won't pay that much for a gaming book. That $5 to $10 makes a lot of difference in the number of people who will pick it up.
WilliamPall 05-20-04, 10:30 PM	Yes . . . there are those of us on a budget . . . and now on strike . . . Ah, I wish for the days of Job Security . . .
stone_dog 05-20-04, 10:31 PM	Even I am flinching at the $40 price tag. That is a good solid chunk out of my funds for this book! So long as it is 320 pages full of good stuff I'll be happy. There will be more than enough to keep me going with that for a good long while.
ieattrollsforbreakfast 05-21-04, 07:29 AM	Although its going to be £20ish, I would buy it for more if it had more stuff in it, its a stretch in price, but its worth it. That said, I wouldnt mind just putting ithe extra bits in sourcebooks.
JohnnyONeal 05-21-04, 12:15 PM	That said, I wouldnt mind just putting ithe extra bits in sourcebooks.Exactly. The last thing we need to worry about is Eberron being underdeveloped. It will be around for years, and part of the way WotC can expect to make money from it is to keep "discovering" new regions and fleshing out existing areas. In this year alone, we can look forward to more information on Sharn, a layered city so densely populated with people and places that it will merit its own sourcebook. If they've got ideas worth sharing about aquatic cultures, and WotC the audience is there, I'm sure we'll see it. As for the campaign setting book, we're getting what I'm sure will be excellent material for a good price. It's not cheap to make 320 color pages; compare the price to a small textbook or a large collected comic book and it comes out as well-priced. It's certainly cheaper than third-party d20 publishers can afford to charge for a hardcover.
Hellcow 05-21-04, 12:25 PM	Originally posted by JohnnyONeal Exactly. The last thing we need to worry about is Eberron being underdeveloped. Bingo. We could only squeeze so much information into the central book and have it be affordable for them & the customer(and already, on a $-per-page comparison, it's a lot cheaper than many of the other recent books). But nothing is going to be thrown away or forgotten. As long as there is interest in the world, they will get around to it eventually, whether it's as a sourcebook, web enhancement, or whatever. I still find the idea of interaction between aquatic cultures and surface cultures to be interesting, but it was never a central part of the setting, and it's certainly something that can wait -- or, if people just aren't interested, be left alone. As for 360 pages, I'm guessing that was my personal misstatement. Has WotC ever made a 360-page book?
Harmony's Sorrow 05-21-04, 01:09 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow I still find the idea of interaction between aquatic cultures and surface cultures to be interesting, but it was never a central part of the setting Okay, sorry, forgot my meds today! LOL Seriously though, thank you Johnny, and even more so Hellcow, for addressing my concerns here. I feel that Eberron deserves at least as much coverage as any previous setting. There are obviously a lot of elements cut from the core book, but if things that will get explored at depth later are at least mentioned in the CSB I'll live. What I'm afraid of are: A. Losing what could have been it's sweetest flavors over something petty like cost. B. Having "modular" expansions tacked on that don't fit correctly because someone thought, hey, we can squueze a lot of cash for this stuff, and if we cram it in here it works, whether it's a seamless addition or not. Example: Psionics in Eberron, addressed and mentioned in the CSB but not expanded upon because not everyone uses/likes psionics. Fine, but I for one will be waiting for an accessory book expanding specifically on Eberron psionics. And Hellcow, I wish for you to always remain involved in your setting. It would be a terrifying day, if wizards ever cut you out of the Eberron development loop. There would be no Eberron without you, and I hope no one loses sight of this fact either. /End rant! Have a great weekend all!!!
Hellcow 05-21-04, 01:48 PM	Originally posted by Harmony's Sorrow A. Losing what could have been it's sweetest flavors over something petty like cost. That's definitely not the issue -- it really is pure space. Few things have actually been removed from the world -- it's just a matter of there being a lot of elements that could be explored in greater depth if there is ever the opportunity to do so (say, goblin ninjas). B. Having "modular" expansions tacked on that don't fit correctly because someone thought, hey, we can squeeze a lot of cash for this stuff, and if we cram it in here it works, whether it's a seamless addition or not. Likewise, there are so many things touched upon in the CSB that could be expanded upon that I don't think there will be a shortage of material for logical and sensible expansions. And have a great weekend yourself!
Mad Miso 05-21-04, 02:26 PM	I want that Dargunn Sourcebook soon Darn't all! :D
Harmony's Sorrow 05-21-04, 03:11 PM	Originally posted by Mad Miso I want that Dargunn Sourcebook soon Darn't all! :D Aye!
MavrickWeirdo 05-31-04, 10:11 AM	Originally posted by stone_dog Even I am flinching at the $40 price tag. That is a good solid chunk out of my funds for this book! So long as it is 320 pages full of good stuff I'll be happy. There will be more than enough to keep me going with that for a good long while. Would it help if it was 320 Full Color pages?
Incenjucar 05-31-04, 02:14 PM	One of the nasty things that poor Keith and Co. have to deal with is that they have to dodge non-core products as much as possible. Can you imagine how many people would spazz if psionics was defaulted to "Present" in Eberron in a manner that would force you to work around it if you didn't have the XPH?
Azer Firelord 05-31-04, 02:38 PM	Well, actually I've been suprised at the lack of complaint about the kalashtar, who are clearly a sub-optimal race if you play without psionics: not that I mind (despite playing without psionics), sub-optimal races can make for interesting roleplaying...
Golem2176 05-31-04, 04:24 PM	And $40 is hard to come by when you are jobless! I'd have to wait 5 whole weeks just to save up for it. $10 a week allowance just don't cut the mustard!
Uranium Dragon 06-01-04, 01:56 AM	Originally posted by Hellcow Bingo. We could only squeeze so much information into the central book and have it be affordable for them & the customer (and already, on a $-per-page comparison, it's a lot cheaper than many of the other recent books). The same thing was said about the d20 Modern Core Rulebook. There were a couple of campaign models that were dropped from the initial book due to number of pages. Those of us on the d20 Modern forum complained about that. There is some info that everyone can use, and a whole lot more that only a few will use. Crop it down to what everyone will use and print that.
Raster 06-01-04, 11:02 PM	Out of all the things that got cut out of the core rulebook, a sourcebook on the aquatic cultures is what I hope for the most. Here's hoping :crosses fingers:
protonik 06-01-04, 11:16 PM	If it were more than 40 bucks I wouldn't buy it no matter how cool it was because that would be way too much and sends the companies the wrong message. Already RPG sales are starting to drop because of price escalation and page count drops and just what we need is another 45-50 dollar product to get those new gamers in the hobby shops! The industry keeps crapping about the increasing age of gamers these days but the continuous price gouging is keeping young gamers from buying the products, so hey, lets jack the price up rather than create a product for those young gamers. The Basic D&D game is a step in the right direction but even then requires a post 90 dollar investment to continue playing the thing. What WOTC would be wise to do is create a basic version of 3e and release a series of boxes like the old boxes for those younger gamers, affordable for an allowance. That would definitely get new kids in the hobby and actually USING that Hasbro connection to get those boxed sets into toy stores, Walmarts and Targets would be another HUGE step to getting kids back into gaming... but what do I know, that isn't how I got into D&D (tongue in cheek) Jason
Incenjucar 06-02-04, 12:32 AM	I think part of it is that the companies see people paying 50 dollars or -more- for video games, things which usually have a limited functional lifetime, and parents get their kids these things sometimes monthly.
Brastan 06-02-04, 02:14 AM	40 bucks, ya Golem2176 I get were your coming from. (Tells you the diversity of age groups on the board). However I've paid that for some (well most) collage text books and will never get the same use out of them that I will out of Eberron text... I mean Source book. Plus I can look forward to better writing and clearer explanations. (Yes Yes its still smarts, but not as much as being gouged for top end games. 50 bucks, and most of them aren't worth it.) Where would we be with out supplements, both print and web. WotC have to make money some were. What better than the underwater kingdoms of Eberron. By the time such a book was publish campaigns would have progressed to a point were the PC's wouldn't hesitate about diving into the depth (as it is my friends actively avoid water, if there were life-preservers available they'd have them on all the time just incase.)
SJE 06-02-04, 02:23 AM	The cropping idea is an interesting one. While 320 pages is hardly flimsy, hopefully the book will be quite concise. Whereas the Iron Kingdoms setting is certainly not being cropped. The result- that setting is being split into a 400 page crunch book for players and a 300 page fluff background book for GMs. So thats what you get without cropping- 700 pages of reading!
Brastan 06-02-04, 02:32 AM	The result- that setting is being split into a 400 page crunch book for players and a 300 page fluff background book for GMs. I hadn't heard that, and it makes sense. That also helps deal with the fluff vs. crunch debate that went on some time ago (back on the new releases board). That would be a good addition to Eberron (or would that be the first novel, kind of like the Silmarillion but better.)
protonik 06-02-04, 12:30 PM	Originally posted by Incenjucar I think part of it is that the companies see people paying 50 dollars or -more- for video games, things which usually have a limited functional lifetime, and parents get their kids these things sometimes monthly. That is the exact arguement that is driving up game prices and gamer ages though. The other thing is Sue Mother isn't going to pay 40 dollars for a book when she can give Billy Kid a video game, especially when she knows Billy Kid already like video games. Sure Video Games are upwards of 40-50 dollars but MORE goes into making a video game and you get your dollar out of them MUCH faster than RPG products. Consider that by the time you are done beating a video game you have spent an average of 40-50 hours on the game, that ONE game. Now consider, even with the console's initial cost also consider that consoles DROP in price over time while RPGs do not and that MOST consoles now perform multiple functions, heck the X-Box is a computer, not to mention DVD playback etc. Also, you don't need more than one person to play console games. Now consider the buy in to play Eberron, 90 dollars for D&D books and 40 bucks for the Eberron book... that is a large chunk of cash and then figure up how long it takes to get your money's worth out of the game when compared to a video game and 4 hours a week. See console games pay for themselves far quicker than pen n paper because you can turn them on whenever you want, but not an RPG. You have to get everyone together to play RPGs. And again, this isn't creating new gamers, its catering to older gamers, new gamers be damned. When 3e was first launched it was a great initiative to bring back older gamers and to get new ones, the books were a GREAT price and actually still are, but now we are in an age where supplements cost more than the core rules! That doesn't encourage new gamers. There was a time when D&D was affordable on an allowance, trust me, I used my allowance to purchase all my 1e stuff, but this day and age... look above to the kid who has to save his allowance to buy Eberron... Jason
protonik 06-02-04, 12:37 PM	I wanted to add something else, considering the buy in for at least 1 person to play Eberron is 130 dollars, they can't play alone... well the rest of those gamers need to A) Be found or B) Taught how to play and EVENTUALLY need to buy at least a PHB. What if little Billy Kid can't find anyone to play with? That is 130 dollars down the drain for poor billy. Jason