Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Rechan 02-16-06, 02:01 PM	We're all here because we like Eberron. Saying it's awesome and there's lots of stuff in it that really get us going goes without saying. What we like isn't what this thread is about. Despite all those great things, surely there are a few things about the setting that we don't like. Well, let me take that back. Not necessarily what we don't like, but things that we have little interest in. This isn't a complaint session about what we don't like about the canon material, like Drow having been mentioned in RoE (Edymnion, I'm looking right at you ;)) but rather, What in Eberron do you not plan on basing campaigns on? What doesn't interest you? For me, it's: 1) The Mournland. I know, it's a great concept, but I just don't share the attraction to it. The cause of it really isn't something I want to know all that much, and going into it isn't on my priority list of Places to Visit. 2) The Dreaming Dark. Don't get me wrong - I really like the Quori and the DD. I think they're really cool. I also appreciate the effort to work psionics into the setting, and am a big fan of Kalasthar. However, I as a DM feel inadequate plotting them. I don't handle subtlety to the point the Quori do. I just can't come up with any plots that the DD would operate in. 3) The Aurum. For the most part, the same as the DD. Real behind the scenes, subterfuge operations that are for the most part beyond me as a plotter. And, we have little info on these guys too, compared to other organizations. 4) The Church of the Silver Flame/Thrane. It seems the SF is either take it or leave it. And while I like the corruption angle, that's getting cliche at this point, and really the CoSF makes me uncomfortable. 5) The Daelkyr. There's just too much on them for my tastes, and aside from the Cults of the Dragon Below (which I really dig), I have little use for the Daelkyr themselves. However, I could see myself running an adventure with them, simply because stylistically they're rather cool. What about you guys?
Kalanth 02-16-06, 03:13 PM	Xen'drik - It's the only thing in all of Eberron that I doubt I will ever use. I do not need a dump continent in order to have wild adventures. And if the players get high enough then I can easily create some plot lines that will be able to handle their new levels.
EvilDrPuma 02-16-06, 03:17 PM	4) The Church of the Silver Flame/Thrane. It seems the SF is either take it or leave it. And while I like the corruption angle, that's getting cliche at this point, and really the CoSF makes me uncomfortable. By "...either take it or leave it," do you mean that the Church of the Silver Flame is exclusionary and intolerant within the setting, or that you find that Eberron fans either love it or hate it? If you mean the former, although it's hackneyed to say, not all Flamers are supposed to be Puritans. If the church is supposed to attract anything except hostility in nations other than Thrane, it had better have followers who aren't fundamentalists. If you mean the latter, well, I haven't taken any polls on the subject.
snikt-snikt 02-16-06, 03:35 PM	A) Airships B) Lightning rails C) Draconic Prophesy--plot hole D) Dragonmarked Houses :eek: --just kidding E) Dinosaurs
igotsmeakabob!! 02-16-06, 03:47 PM	2) The Dreaming Dark. Don't get me wrong - I really like the Quori and the DD. I think they're really cool. However, I as a DM feel inadequate plotting them. I don't handle subtlety to the point the Quori do. I just can't come up with any plots that the DD would operate in. 3) The Aurum. For the most part, the same as the DD. Real behind the scenes, subterfuge operations that are for the most part beyond me as a plotter. And, we have little info on these guys too, compared to other organizations. I agree with you completely for those two. I feel ill equipped to write for them. They're both amazingly cool. Like The Trust. But not enough info and just... I don't know, I have trouble writing plots for them. What you wrote about the DD is right on for me.
MrFilthyIke 02-16-06, 03:56 PM	A) Airships B) Lightning rails C) Draconic Prophesy--plot hole D) Dragonmarked Houses :eek: --just kidding E) Dinosaurs Soooo...you play Forgotten Realms? ;)
Tom McCarthy 02-16-06, 04:17 PM	For me, it's the quori and the Dreaming Dark. Probably psi-forged, too. I just won't be making a plotline out of them. Greensingers and Children of Winter, too. No plans to use them, even though Children of Winter grabbed me. Outing King Kaius, probably not. Revealing Merrix's creation forge? No. The Lord of the Blades marches out fo the Mournland? No. The players kill the Lord of Blades? Yes, but someone else will take up the cause. The Next War? Maybe, but not for at least 3-5 years (and we're only at Therendor, 999) Chryssak in the bowels of Sharn? Maybe. I'll probably warm up to the idea about 2 levels too late and need to advance him to make him a credible threat.
PoeticJustice 02-16-06, 04:22 PM	Soooo...you play Forgotten Realms? ;) Since Eberron is the cordial board in Wizards' webspace, I'll put it like this: Just because somebody doesn't want to base an entire campaign on the Prophecy or use Airships doesn't mean they're playing FR. Everybody has aspects of the setting they don't use and may not even realize the truth of why. Come to think of it... I'll probably never send a party to Argonnessen. I think about it, but the while "band of five mortals VS. Flight of Ancient Wyrms" sinks in and I see an unavoidable Deus Ex Machina. Thrane can be stifling too. Karrnath is a fun Lawful place to adventure in, but Thrane is too stuck and my players usually feel bad about messing with the church. I'm not a great big fan of Sharn (hard for me to describe a vertical city) but my style demands giving players a city with easy access to magic items and adventure hooks. The ECS did a great job protraying the Frostfell as an unknown land, because there's not really anything to draw me to it. Plus, I've had my fill of cold adventures. The Mror Holds seem boring to me. Mines with savage orcs, greedy dwarves, lost empires, and lotsa gold. It's not like we're breaking fresh ground, here. Warlocks. I have an uncontrolable pathological hatred for the class and will not suffer one in my campaign on either side of the screen.
igotsmeakabob!! 02-16-06, 04:37 PM	I do however, love the Mournland. It makes for great horror-based adventuring. I don't like messing with the fundamentals of Eberron, like permanently taking out any of the big players... I don't want to think of the reprecussions of killing Kaius III or Merrix.. hell I doubt the LoB would ever go down. I don't know... Eberron is great. I love the airships, I love the lightning rails.. I love the pseudo-modern day/renaissance/fuedal feel of it... lots of available low-level magic has improved the general quality of life. I love Sharn, its a City of Towers... it works for a great jumping-off place or if your players have just arrived.. describing it is great. I won't be sending my players into Argonessan until its described more. If it isn't, thats fine. But I don't think I would be comfortable making the Argonessan. Same with Draconic Prophecy, the Dreaming Dark, the Aurum... I do like Xendrik. The lost empire of the Giants, the drow... Stormreach.. the random weather shifts. Good stuff. Look at The Shattered Land, made me want to run in Xendrik all the more. But I'll be sending my players into the Mournland first. Lots of Horror.
Count Nerindil Van Seraph 02-16-06, 05:42 PM	Hmmm... there realy just isn't much I don't like about Eberron, but if I had to say... 1) The new planes. Don't get me wrong, there is nothing really wrong with them, but there is just something about the D&D Cosmology that I liked *cough*Dantae Fanboy*cough*. The Blood War was fun. I LOVE the BoVD (am I evil for that?) but now much of the material has to be modified or just thrown out. Also, what happened to the Elemental planes, and why are Fernia and...um...reallycoldplaceia (Risia?) evil? Never been fully explained, at least not to my liking. However, Xoriat is really cool. 2) The fact that everyone else has a secret agenda. I know that this is the flavor of the setting, and it is great. Up to a point. It just feels like they went overboard on this. I mean there is a club, exlusively for people with alterior motives (Aurum) It just seems done to death. If anyone here reads the web comic Sluggy Freelance (www.slugy.com) and remembers the Harry Potter spoof they did: "MYSTERIOUS!" :D Thats about it. Now here is an interesting thought: Get Keith to post on this thread. What would he change, if he could do it all over again.
Rechan 02-16-06, 06:31 PM	By "...either take it or leave it," do you mean that the Church of the Silver Flame is exclusionary and intolerant within the setting, or that you find that Eberron fans either love it or hate it? If you mean the former, although it's hackneyed to say, not all Flamers are supposed to be Puritans. If the church is supposed to attract anything except hostility in nations other than Thrane, it had better have followers who aren't fundamentalists. If you mean the latter, well, I haven't taken any polls on the subject. I meant the latter. I seem to get the impression that folks are either really into it, or don't care for it/kinda hostile towards it. But that's just in my experience. :)
EvilDrPuma 02-16-06, 06:43 PM	Right at the moment, I'm a little down on the attempt that Player's Guide to Eberron has made to insert every race and core class yet published in a D&D product into Eberron. The ECS didn't take the "If it's in D&D, it has a place..." philosophy further than the core books and elements from the monster books and EPH, and S:CoT had a list of prestige classes from various sources but didn't explicitly try to inject them into the backstory. It reminds me a little of my ancient grumblings about 1e Forgotten Realms becoming a dump zone for anything and everything any author thought up...and Eberron has far more unique elements to dilute than Forgotten Realms did. In the end, I'll just ignore most of the suggestions, and use my own ideas if I add material from other books. I just hope this isn't the first phase of a trend that will crowd out Eberron's really unique homegrown bits (warforged, changelings, kalashtar, artificers...).
EvilDrPuma 02-16-06, 06:45 PM	I meant the latter. I seem to get the impression that folks are either really into it, or don't care for it/kinda hostile towards it. But that's just in my experience. :) I won't dispute your experience; I don't feel that I have a frame of reference of my own to offer. Sounds to me like issues that might be fun to play out in the game, though...
LuciferNietzsche 02-16-06, 11:41 PM	Cliche as it might sound now, I really can't stand the CotSF. Nothing I hate more than a bunch of self-righteous, hypocritical, pompus fools. They remind me too much of a real world religious organization that I can't stand either...3 of them, with the same roots, actually. Don't get me wrong though, I think they have a place in the story, and I happen to like Jaela, actually. (No, not that way, sick freaks.) Other than that, there's very little I don't like about it, honestly. Nothing comes to mind other than the CotSF anyway. Everything about the Quori is my favorite...and the Daelkyr too. Not just the bad guys, but the good guys too. The conflicts themselves, and each side, just get me right into the game. The subtlety is exactly what I like about it. Never knowing for sure who's friend or foe, the fact that the enemy can wait eons to accomplish a goal. Aw...that's great stuff. Karrnath rules, Thrane drools. Sharn has got to be the coolest city ever in D&D, second only to Sigil. I don't mind Argonessen, and I don't mind the dragonmarked houses and draconic prophecy. That's pretty much it for my thoughts on the subject. EDIT: Oh...and I also love the fact that Orcs and Goblinoids are no longer near-mindless fodder for destroying human villages and being killed en masse by adventuring parties. They have actual culture now and are respectable races. Kobolds can stay worthless... Down with FR! Long live Eberron!
stone_river_glory 02-17-06, 01:00 AM	In my campaign: I'm doing very little with the CotSF, Thrane in general, and the Mror Holds. They all have a great premise and fascinating stories, but I don't really care for it. The DD and Quori/Kalashtar are interesting. The subtle plots and scheming make things interesting, even if your not overtly using them in your plots. Strange creatures are holding the village your PCs call home or have ties to, give them a symbiont and they are agents of the Daelkyr. The Daelkyr and the DD aren't meant to be overt, out in the open enemies. Its easier to put certain things into the game that point toward the DD and Daelkyr without making them the bad guys immediately obvious.
Temjinstrife 02-17-06, 01:10 AM	I have similar DD and Aurum problems as many have mentioned, although I like the "everyone has an ulterior motive" thing... it allows for last-minute add-on villains and situations when the supposed BBEG dies to an unlucky critical or failed save. Argonessen is right out, barring one of the players having helpful contact with a dragon, as swarms of dragons protected by ravening barbarians is too much for me to set a single party against, no matter what level they may be. I allow them, but I don't particularly like dealing with changelings... they're either too easy or too hard to fool a group with, and can run rather amok in a players' hands (although there hasn't been a situation that I haven't been able to handle... yet.) Sharn is cool... but I could never run a campaign in there. And, it's so far away from everything else! My biggest problem with Eberron, however, is the sheer geographical size of the place. It takes FOREVER to get anywhere, even by airship or rail... and those are pretty stupidly expensive for parties who move around a lot. I mean, we have 3 continents that are the same size as or bigger than Asia.
BoneLord_of_Skullthrone 02-17-06, 01:11 AM	I like everything in Eberron. I will probably never send a party to Argonnessen. Chances are, they won't go to Sarlona either. I might use Xen'drick or Frostfell, but I want to keep things focused on unusual plots taking place in Khorvaire. Not everything the DD do needs centuries of planning. Here's a good DD plot for you: The Inspired have learned it might be possible to use the spirit lineage of the kalashtar to tap into another kalashtar's mind. They start trying to abduct kalashtar in Khorvaire to tap into the minds of those kalashtar who keep the shroud up in Sarlona. The PCs are hired to find a kidnapped child, and track the abductors to the secret research facility (which could be anywhere) where these experiments are taking place. Just throw in some interresting locales with a little swashbuckling and at least one unique encounter (they might have to scale the cliff side of a mountain or a tower in sharn to reach their goal) and you have a good Eberron adventure. And just because DD is involved, doesn't mean the PCs have to be immediately aware of them.
Adhevan 02-17-06, 05:46 AM	There's nothing in particular that I dislike enough about the story to remove from the setting. There are things that just don't move me enough to adventure around them, though. Or things that I really like but find work better as distant menaces. It will be a long time, if ever, before I send PCs to Argonesson or Sarlona. This doesn't mean that they won't affect the plots in my campaign, though. I tend to favor the noir and intrigue elements of the setting. Khorvaire has plenty of things to keep me busy for a long time. So, while agents of the Chamber or Dreaming Dark will make appearances in my game, the continents they call home won't. I'll likely never go to Aerenal, either. I don't hate it, it just doesn't interest me enough to explore it. Besides, it retains a higher creepiness factor if my players don't become too familiar with it. Xen'drik is another place I probably won't go. Jungle exploration type adventures just do not thrill me. And a dungeon crawl through some ancient ruins really doesn't grab me. It makes a great place for plot devices to come from, though. It is just so easy to have some archaeologist returning to Khorvaire with some artifact that all the major powers want and will do anything to get... without letting the others know they want it or even know about it, of course. Although there are several things I won't directly use, I can't think of anything in the ECS that I'd simply throw out.
Setherial 02-17-06, 08:04 AM	sounds to my like you guys just don't like the setting and might find an other setting more to your liking. Dropping the Aurum won't change much, even dropping airships isn't going to make a large difference but the dealkyr, the silver flame, the mournland, the dreaming dark ??? wtf? Eberron is all about a strong well written history and you are punching holes in it the size of cannon balls.
DoveArrow 02-17-06, 12:52 PM	The one thing that kind've sticks in my craw right now is the low levelness of Eberron. I realize this is a big part of the campaign setting, and that it gives Eberron a lot of its appeal. However, at the same time, even with a party of 8th level characters, I'm finding it hard to find appropriate challenges that still feel like they have a place in the world. This issue also leaves me wondering what I'm going to do as the PCs advance in levels that won't involve seriously altering the campaign world in some way, or sending them to some remote location, like Argonessen, or the Demon Wastes.
Urko 02-17-06, 01:46 PM	This issue also leaves me wondering what I'm going to do as the PCs advance in levels that won't involve seriously altering the campaign world in some way, or sending them to some remote location, like Argonessen, or the Demon Wastes. Why not let the characters alter the world? I thought that's what the whole point of being an adventurer was - making a difference. It seems like a lot of people are afraid to let any plot lines advance in any way. People seem timid about actually resolving any of the open threads. I'm all in favor of WotC not telling us how to resolve them, but isn't the reason we were given all these groovy mysteries and tensions to have something to base our storylines on and then play them out? I'm curious what the rationale is behind not letting anything change. Is it fear of being later contradicted by an "official" version of events, or something else? I feel that you're short-changing yourself if you never let your version of Eberron advance or change. Getting back to the original post, I run multiple campaigns, and in each I choose an element to focus on. The other things aren't excluded, per se, it's just that in a campaign centering on the Dreaming Dark, for example, I won't be delving into the mystery of the lost Mark of Death and so on. But those things are still there in the background if I choose to bring them in. One thing I plan to delete are the symbols for the Dark Six depicted in the PGtE. I just think they're goofy and they don't look (to my eyes) like the sort of thing a real religion would choose. On the off chance that anyone is interested, my alternatives are: the Devourer - shark jaw; the Fury - heart pierced by dagger; the Keeper - skull or skeletal fist; the Mockery - flayed hand; the Shadow - black, pupilless eye; the Traveler - stylized road leading to horizon with sun/moon (also appropriating MarkB's thorny rose).
Save-vs-DM 02-17-06, 01:49 PM	Things I rarely use in my Eberron game. You know, I've tied about four organizations or areas into this already and each time I go "hey, I used that once!" Really, I've used almost everything in some little bit or another. Though I have to say that I really don't feel up to the task of running the Dreaming Dark - granted I have an entire game centered around them at the moment, but I really feel that I'm not going as good a job as I should be. Most of my subtle stuff ends up being too obvious. There really isn't much in the setting I don't like, save for one thing - personally, I think that the continent is just way too big. I've had to shrink the sucker by like 50% to make travel times even close to useable, even with airships and lightning rails. It almost looks like the cartographer did this great map and then someone else just slapped an arbitrary scale on the sucker. Anyway, my :twocents: Cheers, Save vs DM
DragonWatcher 02-17-06, 02:04 PM	The one thing that I will never use in one of my games: The re-emergence of the Mark of Death!
DBlizzard 02-17-06, 02:29 PM	There isn't anything right now in Eberron I wouldn't consider using. Right now, Sarlona and the interior of Argonessa are the least likely to be used. However, there is so much cool stuff I won't get a chance to use. I'd love to throw a long dragonmarked house politics plot in my game. I'd love to play with the Lords of Dust. I'd like to play with the Kalashtar vs. Dreaming Dark conflict. I'm using the Cult of the Dragon Below. I just can't throw it all into one campaign as a major plot or it loses focus.
Rechan 02-17-06, 02:39 PM	Just a clarification, folks: I'm not talking about removing it from the setting. I'm talking about simply not focusing your game around it. Things that don't interest you, not things you just would rather didn't exist.
Kalanth 02-17-06, 02:52 PM	Just a clarification, folks: I'm not talking about removing it from the setting. I'm talking about simply not focusing your game around it. Things that don't interest you, not things you just would rather didn't exist. Somewhere along the line I think people drastically misinterpreted the words. I love everything Eberron, but as the OP asked for, there are just somethings I would not use that often if at all. I could more easily think up a reason to go to Argonessen than Xen'drik, which is kind of sad to be honest. Hence the reason why I don't want to use the swap meat that is Xen'drik to much in my games.
Kerrara 02-17-06, 10:14 PM	Warforged. Seriously, either they're massively overpowered or they're just a headache to work within the party because of the differing rulesets. Generally they're both. Fungal Nodules and pretty much all the grafts in MoE. Valenar horses created by breeding with Elf Druids. Ew. Seriously. Let's just not go there.
Edymnion 02-17-06, 10:46 PM	Any continent other than Khovaire and Xen'Drik. I like it that there are mysterious places that people don't go to. I have no intention of ruining that by having people go there and figure out how things work. Rogue dragons. I don't know who's butt Keith was kissing when he actually said that "go into a cave, kill a dragon, and take it's horde" *EVER* has a place in Eberron. Any party in my games that goes out of it's way to kill a dragon just because it's sitting on a pile of gold is going to find out VERY quickly that it just screwed up BIG TIME. Aka, the big powerful guys over there just found out that you murdered one of their own in cold blood, and they're sending a few not-so-friendly draconic police officers over to "take you into custody" for it. Aka, expect a flight of dragons to knock on your door, and just pray to the gods that you getting thrown into a dank pit is the worst they do to you. Subraces. I don't care if the WotC Lawyer Ninjas come to my house and cram a Subraces of Eberron book down my throat, I'm not going to use it. Unless you can show me how a legit character is 100% unplayable without a mechanical subrace of an existing race, you may expect to be beaten about the head and shoulders with first the PHB, then the ECS, and told to read them. PGtE's stuff on how to do all these subraces and new races can just go fornicate themselves. I allow the Psiforged as just another body feat, I don't use any of the "this is an almost subrace" stuff. There's nothing about them that deserves it any more than Ironwood Body needs to have a subrace mythos built up around it. The Aurum. Nothing against the Aurum, I just don't really find it interesting enough to use, not when there's so much more stuff thats better at the whole wheels within wheels thing. The Kalashtar. Again, nothing really against the Kalashtar, or Psionics, I just don't find the race to be interesting. They suffer pretty badly from the "Psionic version of a normal race" syndrom thats only a hair better than subraces to begin with. Added on to that all of the baggage that comes with being a Kalashtar, and how you really have to make the game revolve around them and the Dreaming Dark, I just don't find them to be worth using. They just feel so very one dimensional to me. Yeah, okay, so they're in a secret war. But if I don't want a game centered totally around that secret war, there is no point in having a Kalashtar in my game as anything other than the occassional NPC. Sure, you don't *HAVE* to have a Kalashtar fighting the Dreaming Dark, but then there's no reason not to play just a normal human with levels in Psion or whatever. Sorry Keith, I just find them to be a flat race with no real potential outside of the whole dreaming dark secret war thing. Aundair. I dunno, nothing against it either, but its just sort of bland, IMO. There's no real reason to do anything n Aundair that you can't do anywhere else. Breland has Sharn and the freedom thing, Karnnath has the undead and the like, Thrane has the Silver Flame, Zilargo has the backstabbing, but Aundair? It has um, a magic school. And wine. The closest I've ever come to using Aundair was in the background of one of my characters, and it was mentioned exactly long enough to say "He's from there, but he got kicked out and went to Karnnath". Aundair is just sort of there.
Adhevan 02-17-06, 11:20 PM	Subraces. I don't care if the WotC Lawyer Ninjas come to my house and cram a Subraces of Eberron book down my throat, I'm not going to use it. Unless you can show me how a legit character is 100% unplayable without a mechanical subrace of an existing race, you may expect to be beaten about the head and shoulders with first the PHB, then the ECS, and told to read them. PGtE's stuff on how to do all these subraces and new races can just go fornicate themselves. I allow the Psiforged as just another body feat, I don't use any of the "this is an almost subrace" stuff. There's nothing about them that deserves it any more than Ironwood Body needs to have a subrace mythos built up around it. I have to agree with you on this one, for certain. If people as radically different as Aerenal necromancers and Valenar horse nomads can be done without resorting to subraces more statistically refined to their needs, then subraces just aren't necessary.
Edymnion 02-17-06, 11:34 PM	I have to agree with you on this one, for certain. If people as radically different as Aerenal necromancers and Valenar horse nomads can be done without resorting to subraces more statistically refined to their needs, then subraces just aren't necessary.Exactly. Two drastically differant cultures, two drastically differant ways to live, and their mechanics are EXACTLY THE SAME (well, other than some weapon proficiencies). The entire concept of "Live here and act this way makes you inherently better at X because thats what your society promotes most" just totally falls apart in front of the Valenar and the Areneal elves.
dang 02-17-06, 11:51 PM	i obviously enjoy the setting as a whole, but... 1) Droaam. a nation of monsters. boo. 2) Zilargo. look, it's disneyland, but sinister! but only if you want it to be. possibly just neutral, with tons of backstabbing. reminds me of cheerleader camp... is Zilargo a cheerocracy? (am i wrong in assuming one of you has seen "bring it on?") 3) NPC alignments. what's with all the friggen LE? khorvaire is not a nice place. 4) grafts. especially the undying grafts. 5) Dolurrh. sure, it's an afterlife, but it's no fun. maybe it's just a waiting room, but whatever -- i dinna want ta go there. 6) elemental binding. creeps me out -- would you want to be chained to a skyship forever? i obviously include it, but don't like it. 7) deathless. they're undead, but good. couldn't they have been differentiated a *little* more? looks, or something? positive energy, negative energy... doesn't make any sort of sense. all i ask is a tad more creativity. 8) dreaming dark. i'd like it, but psionics aren't my thing. personal bias.
Kalanth 02-18-06, 12:44 AM	2) Zilargo. look, it's disneyland, but sinister! but only if you want it to be. possibly just neutral, with tons of backstabbing. reminds me of cheerleader camp... is Zilargo a cheerocracy? (am i wrong in assuming one of you has seen "bring it on?") So who, in all of Zilargo, is the corrupt dance instructor? (Haven't just seen it, I actually bought the DvD)
Dustin001 02-18-06, 12:51 AM	I dont like the dragon marks. I like the more advanced society with the lightining rail and airships but the dragon marks just get too confusing
Anguirus23 02-18-06, 04:21 AM	I don't know who's butt Keith was kissing when he actually said that "go into a cave, kill a dragon, and take it's horde" *EVER* has a place in Eberron. How about the butts of people who like taking on dragons without having to worry about an enormous response from umpteen of his dragon budies? Eberron is D&D. Many, many, many D&D groups like killing dragons and taking their stuff. It's foolishness for Keith to say "If your group wants to do that, then its not playing in *the real* Eberron" because that's alienating people for no good reason. If you don't like and won't use rogue dragons, it's very understandable, but why go after Keith for "kissing butt" just because he said that one of the most iconic concepts in D&D (i.e. confronting a dragon in a dungeon) can indeed have a place in Eberron? Eberron will only survive if it is a D&D setting that applies to many different groups and play styles. Should it sacrifice its own unique identity? Of course not! Should it arbitrarily restrict scenarios and thus shut out play groups who, for instance, might really enjoy the setting and flavor, yet prefer dungeon crawl to intrigue? Of course not! The setting is about options, not pigeonholing every group into some dogmatic concept of what Eberron is. Quit knocking Keith for being reasonable.
Romulus LoneWolf 02-18-06, 09:23 AM	Eberron is D&D. Many, many, many D&D groups like killing dragons and taking their stuff. It's foolishness for Keith to say "If your group wants to do that, then its not playing in *the real* Eberron" because that's alienating people for no good reason. Agreed. One of the things that originally bothered me about the ECS was that all Dragons seemed tied to that big Draconic Prophecy thing, and that using Dragons in any other way wouldn't work. ...I didn't like that restriction, so when the Rogue Dragons concept came up, I was greatly pleased. Back on topic, there really isn't a lot of stuff I don't plan on using in my Eberron campaign, although the Samurai Class is one of them. I don't even like the concept of the Samurai Class, as I think a Lawful Good Fighter fits the role just as well, and offers the advantage of more variety in the swordsmanship style. But that's a whole other rant there..
ryanroyce 02-18-06, 12:38 PM	Any continent other than Khovaire and Xen'Drik. I like it that there are mysterious places that people don't go to. I have no intention of ruining that by having people go there and figure out how things work. Rogue dragons. I don't know who's butt Keith was kissing when he actually said that "go into a cave, kill a dragon, and take it's horde" *EVER* has a place in Eberron. Any party in my games that goes out of it's way to kill a dragon just because it's sitting on a pile of gold is going to find out VERY quickly that it just screwed up BIG TIME. Aka, the big powerful guys over there just found out that you murdered one of their own in cold blood, and they're sending a few not-so-friendly draconic police officers over to "take you into custody" for it. Aka, expect a flight of dragons to knock on your door, and just pray to the gods that you getting thrown into a dank pit is the worst they do to you. Agreed... to a point, but I don't think that the dragons should be treated like a hive mind with a monolithic POV, either. The dragons are still a race of individuals, after all. Greedy dragons that couldn't care less about the Prophesy certainly do exist, IMO, and are viable targets for adventurers without risking the wrath of the Chamber. In fact, one such greedy dragon might be a powerful member of the Aurum and the central villain for a low-to-mid-level adventure. So long as it doesn't involve caves, of course. ;) Subraces. I don't care if the WotC Lawyer Ninjas come to my house and cram a Subraces of Eberron book down my throat, I'm not going to use it. Unless you can show me how a legit character is 100% unplayable without a mechanical subrace of an existing race, you may expect to be beaten about the head and shoulders with first the PHB, then the ECS, and told to read them. PGtE's stuff on how to do all these subraces and new races can just go fornicate themselves. I allow the Psiforged as just another body feat, I don't use any of the "this is an almost subrace" stuff. There's nothing about them that deserves it any more than Ironwood Body needs to have a subrace mythos built up around it. I'll agree with you for the most part; aspects of a race that are clearly a product of race (stat mods, darkvision/LLV, spell-like abilities, certain skill bonuses, etc) always stay the same, but aspects of a race that are clearly a product of culture (weapon proficiencies, certain skill bonuses, bonus languages, favored class, etc) I feel comfortable with tweaking for a given region/origin. For example, in my campaign, a gnome raised in House Sivis will more likely have a +2 Decipher Script instead of a +2 Craft (alchemy). Likewise, a Valenar elf would have a favored class of ranger instead of wizard. A +2 to Knowledge (history) wouldn't be amiss, either. The Aurum. Nothing against the Aurum, I just don't really find it interesting enough to use, not when there's so much more stuff thats better at the whole wheels within wheels thing. *shrug* I rather like the Aurum. The dragon-in-disguise idea is just one way that I would use the society. Even as just a smaller wheel within a larger wheel, they are fun to use. The Kalashtar. Again, nothing really against the Kalashtar, or Psionics, I just don't find the race to be interesting. They suffer pretty badly from the "Psionic version of a normal race" syndrom thats only a hair better than subraces to begin with. Added on to that all of the baggage that comes with being a Kalashtar, and how you really have to make the game revolve around them and the Dreaming Dark, I just don't find them to be worth using. They just feel so very one dimensional to me. Yeah, okay, so they're in a secret war. But if I don't want a game centered totally around that secret war, there is no point in having a Kalashtar in my game as anything other than the occassional NPC. Sure, you don't *HAVE* to have a Kalashtar fighting the Dreaming Dark, but then there's no reason not to play just a normal human with levels in Psion or whatever. Sorry Keith, I just find them to be a flat race with no real potential outside of the whole dreaming dark secret war thing. I used to agree here (though it had more to do with my general disinsterest in psionics than anything else), but Keith's Dreaming Dark novels have really warmed me to them as a concept. Aundair. I dunno, nothing against it either, but its just sort of bland, IMO. There's no real reason to do anything n Aundair that you can't do anywhere else. Breland has Sharn and the freedom thing, Karnnath has the undead and the like, Thrane has the Silver Flame, Zilargo has the backstabbing, but Aundair? It has um, a magic school. And wine. The closest I've ever come to using Aundair was in the background of one of my characters, and it was mentioned exactly long enough to say "He's from there, but he got kicked out and went to Karnnath". Aundair is just sort of there. I certainly have to disagree here. I love Aundair. Aundair is a land of swashbuckling derring-do, courtly intrigue, impeccable style, and scholarship. Essentially, it's France from back in the day when France was still cool, with added arcane mojo. Personally, I can't think of anything that I wouldn't use. I don't care much for psionics, so that attitude carries over to most things Sarlonan, but I've even found a use for them in my campaign. There are only ideas that I have found a use for and those that I haven't a use for yet. Ryan
Edymnion 02-18-06, 03:22 PM	If you don't like and won't use rogue dragons, it's very understandable, but why go after Keith for "kissing butt" just because he said that one of the most iconic concepts in D&D (i.e. confronting a dragon in a dungeon) can indeed have a place in Eberron?Because it was one of my favorite parts that we finally had a setting that didn't treat these uber intelligent, uber powerful creatures like walking xp and treasure piles. They live for millenia, they are typically far more intelligent than any of the humanoid races by default, and they have tremendous amounts of power. I like the idea that Dragons in this setting are not just brainless monsters to kill, but actual intelligent, active people with their own agendas. So what if it means you can't go on dragon hunts? I typically don't let the players go on little orphan baby hunts either. If there is a good reason that a dragon needs to be put down, thats one thing. But killing a dragon just because it's a dragon and you want it's hoard? I call that premeditated cold blooded murder, and I handle it in the same way I would if the party up and said "Hey, lets go kill a nobleman and steal all of his stuff!". Sure, you can, but you can expect all hell to break loose when you do. Same with how I run Dragons in my Eberron game. They are not monsters, they are people. People a heck of a lot stronger and smarter than you are, that have centuries more experience than you will ever have. And when you've got an entire civilized continent of them with no one going around killing them for the fun of it, to where you have great wyrms sitting around just watching everything going on in the world for signs of a dragonmark with their epic magic, its pretty safe to assume that one of their opperatives that suddenly gets killed by the PCs is going to be noticed pretty darn quick, and appropriate punishments dealt out in a timely manner.
Rechan 02-18-06, 04:40 PM	Same with how I run Dragons in my Eberron game. They are not monsters, they are people. People a heck of a lot stronger and smarter than you are, that have centuries more experience than you will ever have. And when you've got an entire civilized continent of them with no one going around killing them for the fun of it, to where you have great wyrms sitting around just watching everything going on in the world for signs of a dragonmark with their epic magic, its pretty safe to assume that one of their opperatives that suddenly gets killed by the PCs is going to be noticed pretty darn quick, and appropriate punishments dealt out in a timely manner. That still doesn't stop you from being able to kill them. Like People, the dragon nation isn't going to get their panties in a bunch if you kill One dragon, not because you "want its gp and hp" but because of opposition. If you and it are enemies, and you take it out like you'd take out any other enemy, then it was a fair match and sure, said dragon's friends aren't going to like it, but it's not the same as "Let's go dragon hunting!" To kill a dragon is something that should be a climactic event in and of itself, and given the nature of Dragons (in Eberron and elsewhere), it should be the culmination of a campaign - the BBEG. Vol might have a Draco-lich on retainer, or be where she keeps her phlychary. For instance, in one campaign I'm kicking around, there's a dragon who's experimenting with the effects of Xoriat and Daelkyr magic on dragonmarks (and thus by proxy, the draconic prophecy). So naturally, he could come into opposition by the Gatekeepers, as well as Daelkyr hunters - especially if he falls into league with them (or Mordain) to further his Prophecy experiments. But we're getting off topic, and any further discussion ought to be directed to a new thread. :)
Edymnion 02-18-06, 04:50 PM	Ah, but thats a horse of another color. Its not "Dragon lives in a cave and eats people" that is standard in normal D&D. For that, they've become fully fleshed out NPCs, and are treated as such. Treating any dragon in Eberron as a mindless monster hunt is wrong, IMO.
Euangelion 02-18-06, 06:57 PM	One thing I get a little tired of is the focus on the daelkyr/aberrations/Xoriat aspect of the Cults of the Dragon Below at the expense of those that worship Khyber or the primary heirs of Khyber (rajahs, night hags, aboleths, etc.) It takes away from the primal struggle of the progenitors and their descendants by making the "Dragon Below" so associated with extraplanar aberrant entities. I can see cults forming around the daelkyr, etc. But I prefer to look at them more along the lines of the radiant idol cults than branishing them with the title "Cults of Dragon Below" when that should be reserved for those that worship the true heirs of Khyber, IMHO.
kidman 02-18-06, 07:00 PM	mourngrave university, there is way to mu =ch information pn it (take it out of PGtE and more about the stuff i care about!!!) UM.... the planes ,it supposed to be mainly low level based and different planes is usually high level (and i like the plane eberron more than any of the other planes)
Rechan 02-18-06, 07:12 PM	One thing I get a little tired of is the focus on the daelkyr/aberrations/Xoriat aspect of the Cults of the Dragon Below at the expense of those that worship Khyber or the primary heirs of Khyber (rajahs, night hags, aboleths, etc.) It takes away from the primal struggle of the progenitors and their descendants by making the "Dragon Below" so associated with extraplanar aberrant entities. I can see cults forming around the daelkyr, etc. But I prefer to look at them more along the lines of the radiant idol cults than branishing them with the title "Cults of Dragon Below" when that should be reserved for those that worship the true heirs of Khyber, IMHO. That's actually a really good point. I like that a lot. However, I think the problem with the CoDB is that the Daelkyr are currently loose and free roaming in Khyber, with their creations roaming around everywhere, so they get to have a more active role.
Anguirus23 02-18-06, 08:45 PM	Because it was one of my favorite parts that we finally had a setting that didn't treat these uber intelligent, uber powerful creatures like walking xp and treasure piles. I have never seen pulished WotC material that did. The Draconomicon in particular is filled with intelligent dragons with their own particular motivations. Some of them live in caves and stockpile treasure, others live on the Elemental Plane of Water and have their entire hoard in the form of books. They live for millenia, they are typically far more intelligent than any of the humanoid races by default, and they have tremendous amounts of power. That's true everywhere. Now, I've seen DMs play dragons dumb, but thats not a campaign-setting issue. So what if it means you can't go on dragon hunts? To me, it doesn't matter a great deal. Some groups may indeed enjoy being dragon-hunters. The solution that makes Eberron fun for these people while still preserving the mysterious and powerful nature of dragons in general is the rogue dragon. I mean, honestly. Not every young adult evil dragon is going to feel like sitting around thinking about the Prophecy all the time. If anything, most dragons in Eberron are too out-of-reach and not as much fun to deal with as they are in other campaign settings IMHO. Players who like dealing with dragons, on a hostile basis or otherwise, like the fact that there are dragons that operate on their own and that Argonessen or another agency might have a legitimate interest in taking out. I mean, without that, it seems like the only way to get the attention of a dragon in Eberron is to either be a Prophecy-focused character or insult one's mother, and then you'll somehow get a dragon hit squad descending on you. But killing a dragon just because it's a dragon and you want it's hoard? I call that premeditated cold blooded murder, and I handle it in the same way I would if the party up and said "Hey, lets go kill a nobleman and steal all of his stuff!". Sure, you can, but you can expect all hell to break loose when you do. How about one of Keiths rogue dragons who is evil and orchestrating some grand conspiracy? Or just terrorizing people? I agree that killing a dragon for being a dragon is wrong (and foolhardy). But how does that translate to "I don't like that Keith said that this might ever happen in Eberron." Or "have a place" in it. Dragons may be different in Eberron, but that doesn't mean you have to throw out every module and character concept that revolves around killing dragons because you're in Eberron. There are lots of dragons, and there are lots of bad dragons. Might as well say that all elves should be duly appointed representatives of Aerenal, because in regular games they are too easy to kill without the wrath of the elves descending upon you, and that the concept of evil rogue elves (who might even have a dungeon!) should not exist in Eberron. its pretty safe to assume that one of their opperatives that suddenly gets killed by the PCs is going to be noticed pretty darn quick, and appropriate punishments dealt out in a timely manner. Sure. But it follows that NOT EVERY DRAGON WILL BE AN OPERATIVE of these head honchos, just as not every elf has the full force of the Undying Court behind him. In summary, thank you Keith. Thank you from not making these incredibly intelligent, beloved creatures a single monolithic unit of contemplatives. Thank you for saying that there are dragons in Eberron that aren't watched over by CR 40 virtual demi-gods who will zorch a party of tenth-level adventurers for killing them. You can deal with dragons without dealing with Argonessen or the Prophecy.
Edymnion 02-18-06, 09:46 PM	Still doesn't mean I'm going to be using random "Lets go kill us a dragon!" elements in my game, which is what the thread is all about ;)
johnkretzer 02-18-06, 10:11 PM	Still doesn't mean I'm going to be using random "Lets go kill us a dragon!" elements in my game, which is what the thread is all about ;) Umm... If you needed Eberron setting to treat dragons or any "monster" as a walking exp/gold slot machine then you never really got what the game is all about. Atleast what the game is all about to me. Yes dragons are not "monster" in Eberron they are like really big super intelligent people with scales and wings, etc. But if they are like people then wouldn't it stand to reason that some have said this prophecy crap is well crap? So rogue dragons would exist and since they are proably causeing trouble the Chamber would proably would hire the PCs to deal with the rogue. Since they don't seem to like directly doing things. I really can't say there is anything in Eberron I wouldn't use. Though I would like more infomation on things before I start using them heavily.
Anguirus23 02-18-06, 10:43 PM	Still doesn't mean I'm going to be using random "Lets go kill us a dragon!" elements in my game, which is what the thread is all about Naturally. But that doesn't mean Keith's kissing someone's butt because he disagrees with you. :D
igotsmeakabob!! 02-18-06, 10:57 PM	How do we even know if Keith wrote that part? Or was the book written only by Keith? I don't have it next to me right now.
Romulus LoneWolf 02-18-06, 11:26 PM	That's actually a really good point. I like that a lot. However, I think the problem with the CoDB is that the Daelkyr are currently loose and free roaming in Khyber, with their creations roaming around everywhere, so they get to have a more active role. However this makes for an interesting story concept when the Cults devoted to Khyber itself decides the Cults dedicated to the Daelkyr are Heretics who have to Go...
dang 02-18-06, 11:45 PM	So who, in all of Zilargo, is the corrupt dance instructor? (Haven't just seen it, I actually bought the DvD) :D hmmm... i like the idea of kaius doing spirit fingers...
EvilDrPuma 02-18-06, 11:46 PM	However this makes for an interesting story concept when the Cults devoted to Khyber itself decides the Cults dedicated to the Daelkyr are Heretics who have to Go... It's also possible that many of the Cultists are confused and don't realize that the daelkyr and Khyber aren't specifically related. Maybe the daelkyr find it convenient that way.
Sir Elton 02-19-06, 12:50 AM	You know, I never saw a perfect campaign setting. Even my Atlantis setting isn't perfect (but it's getting better, all the time). Eberron isn't perfect either (but it's getting better, all the time). But you know what? A DM isn't meant to use everything in the setting. Eberron is just too big to use all at once, I mean believe it! My campaign, if you seen it, works off the Last War. Just the Last War. Sure, I use a little bit of this, and a little bit of that to give the campaign the proper "versimilitude." I even change Eberron to make it more consistent for me. For instance, I still have to write out it's Spiritual Creation, since I already have the physical creation down. I love Spirtual Creations, they are just so . . . so . . . . COOL! *Ahem!* Anyway, not in my Eberron? There's too much to work with, so I can't work with it all. I threw out the Draconic Prophesy as a fortelling of the future. I would like to throw out the other races and keep humans, but . . . I like the new races of Eberron too much. :) I don't think we are going to visit Areneal, Argonessen, Xendrik, . . . . the story the Players and I will write *may* take us to Sarlona. We will definitely *bump* into Inspired. I won't be using the Chamber, the Aurum, or several little power houses until they are needed. But the main focus is the aftermath of the Last War.
BrotherDog 02-19-06, 05:51 AM	I leave not one thing out of Eberron at all. That just defeats it's flavor. However I don't push or encourage certain things that are, sort-of [for the lack of a better word] "half-assed". First, it's got everything a monster fan like myself could love in a world, but also waaaaaaaay too much humanocentricity, especially Dragonmarks. I like what they can add to the game, but please! Too many are humans only. Again, another lame-O rule design that imbalances things and is meant to encourage powergamers to stick to humans. That got old long before Moses crossd the Red Sea. Despite those grevences, I like Eberron all around. I just can't wait to get in a game. P.S. Did that come off as venting?
(Psi)SeveredHead 02-19-06, 11:15 AM	The one thing that kind've sticks in my craw right now is the low levelness of Eberron. I realize this is a big part of the campaign setting, and that it gives Eberron a lot of its appeal. However, at the same time, even with a party of 8th level characters, I'm finding it hard to find appropriate challenges that still feel like they have a place in the world. This issue also leaves me wondering what I'm going to do as the PCs advance in levels that won't involve seriously altering the campaign world in some way, or sending them to some remote location, like Argonessen, or the Demon Wastes. This is why you're supposed to level up NPCs - they're doing stuff too. That's what all the plotting is about. But I can see how high level PCs can upstage entire armies. Let the bidding for their services start at ... Come to think of it, does anyone have a party where everyone is the same nationality in-game? For instance, I still have to write out it's Spiritual Creation, since I already have the physical creation down. I love Spirtual Creations, they are just so . . . so . . . . COOL! Ok, what are these?
Sir Elton 02-19-06, 11:22 AM	Ok, what are these? Their identities are a secret. But you have them all the time. :) I can't explain what they are publically. Everyone would scream in shock. Especially those who can't stand D&D psionics. Send me a PM and I'll let you on a clean little secret.
(Psi)SeveredHead 02-19-06, 11:35 AM	There's a thread at http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=165584 where Keith Baker discussed some of these issues. Just copying my answers from that thread: The list of things I dislike about the ECS could cover a postage stamp, probably. I'll state it right out - Vol. I don't like half-dragons, there's nothing interesting about her motivations, there's no explanation for why people would follow her, etc. Of course, when I think of a campaign setting, I ignore the crunch. I'm not a huge fan of the artificer, either, but I don't think it hurts the flavor of the setting to have artificers working in the background. Now, there are a few things I dislike about later releases, but that's another story. Too many cooks, etc, but I feel little obligation to buy the splatbooks anyway.
Rechan 02-19-06, 11:53 AM	But I can see how high level PCs can upstage entire armies. Let the bidding for their services start at ... That's a staple of Anime. Big powerful dudes are supposed to be able to waste an army of extras. But hell, high level characters are supposed to be superheros. A 12th level fighter can fall off a 100 foot cliff and stand up and brush hismelf off.
Thramzorean 02-19-06, 12:02 PM	Of the published material the only thing I've looking at banning completely is the Cataclysm Mage, this whole prophesy cataclysm just seems to compound all the myriad downsides of the history and I find the rationale of becoming an expert in each these topics a little hairy. Running off to do a quest to go up a level is right out. I find the time scale too long, i.e. long to the point of being meaningless, it's like swatting up on geological ages. I'm not a fan of the cosmology. I can make it work but the various planes seem to lack something, yes Xoriat is cool but there's a whole bunch of other stuff that just fills up valuable space in the campaign. The dragon prophecy I would be happier with a little more bones to be able to flesh out on rather than keeping it totally wishy washy... The more I play warforged the more I seem to be going off them. One of the things I liked about D&D 3.0/3.5 was even the highest level characters were not assumed to be untouchable diety types, they still have creature needs and failings i.e. a noisy night can still bother the archmage... The warforged get away from this.
(Psi)SeveredHead 02-19-06, 12:17 PM	That's a staple of Anime. Big powerful dudes are supposed to be able to waste an army of extras. But hell, high level characters are supposed to be superheros. A 12th level fighter can fall off a 100 foot cliff and stand up and brush hismelf off. Well, you can waste an army, except that army is going is going to have its own elites. Plus, the PCs would need an army if they're doing anything other than defense, just to occupy territory, ask questions and so forth. If you fall of a cliff, you're closer to death. I mean, you might not suffer penalties except it takes fewer arrows to kill you now, but you're going to be bruised and limping...
Korhal_IV 02-20-06, 07:58 PM	Psiforged, right out. Boo. Not a fan of the concept at all, especially not since it shades so closely to an unnecessary subrace. Likewise half-daelkyr, the Magic of Eberron grafts - well, just about everything in Magic of Eberron, to be honest. Kalashtar. I like 'em, but it's like someone else said, there's this focus on the Dreaming Dark that makes it difficult to justify orienting them elsewhere.
Edymnion 02-20-06, 08:11 PM	How do we even know if Keith wrote that part? Or was the book written only by Keith? I don't have it next to me right now.Um, because it was in a dragonshard, and only Keith writes dragonshards?
igotsmeakabob!! 02-20-06, 08:19 PM	Its also in PGtE, thats where I saw it.
Arcane Guyver 02-20-06, 08:59 PM	There's not much in the ECS I wouldn't use. The DD seemed intimidating, but after giving it a shot, they're not too difficult to use. On the other hand, I really don't know enough about the Aurum to use them. The draconic prophecy is so incredibly ambiguous, I'm still unsure what the setting creators were trying to accomplish with it. So far, I've only been able to use it as an excuse for dragons to meddle with mortals, but in the end I never have a great, concrete reason for why they're doing that. There's a large amount of material in Wierdness of...er, Magic of Eberron and Player's Guide to Eberron that I'm not going to use in my game at all. Most non-core races/subraces (including Daelkyr Half-shouldabeenafreakingtemplateBlood), Incarnum, rogue dragons, healers & samurai.
Sir Elton 02-20-06, 10:55 PM	Kalashtar. I like 'em, but it's like someone else said, there's this focus on the Dreaming Dark that makes it difficult to justify orienting them elsewhere. Who says there has to be a dreaming dark?
Telagaunt 02-20-06, 11:46 PM	I love DD and Inspired, and Kalashtar, and the psionics role they play. But I do admit it's hard to create plots but that's just due to lack of information thus far. You can certainly make some behind the scenes stuff, but we all know the DD is slowly positioning itself into Khorvaire... And I know Eberron leaves lots of creativity to the players and DM's, but I always hate to step on future fluff. But I'd sure as hell like to know more about the Dreamer. Another problem I have, is daelkyr. I think they're cool and all, but CR seems kinda low for what they can do. But anyways, that's not the problem, my problem with daelkyr is I think I read somewhere in Races of Eberron I think it was, they said there's like 6... or 7 daelkyr trapped in Khyber. To me that annoys me. Because if I want to use one of those daelkyr, I'm afraid (like I said in the above paragraph) on stepping on some future fluff. Surely I can just create an unknown daelkyr, change the number, but it still bothers me. Something else bothers me too... how are the daelkyr stuck in Khyber??? Gatekeeper magic??? I dont get it. :confused:
Korhal_IV 02-20-06, 11:50 PM	Who says there has to be a dreaming dark? I'm running a game in 1942. Who says there has to be a Germany? All them soldiers are just toddling around aimlessly. I'm sorry, that's just one of the least helpful replies ever.
Rechan 02-20-06, 11:52 PM	I'm running a game in 1942. Who says there has to be a Germany? All them soldiers are just toddling around aimlessly. I'm sorry, that's just one of the least helpful replies ever. Technically it could be about the Italians. Or it could be a Chinese vs. Japanese game. :P
Baron_Erdrich 02-21-06, 12:33 AM	Personally I'm not a big fan of the Kalashtar. Not that big on psionics. I don't think they're broken or anything, just like magic better. They would be in it if my players wanted one though. I also don't like Changelings, something about them rubs me the wrong way, and I also don't like the fact that most of the Lycanthropes were destroyed and almost replaced by shifters. Also as much as I like plot, intrigue really isn't my thing. I've always been a more mystery kind of guy and the others remind me of Indiana Jones so...
Romulus LoneWolf 02-21-06, 06:51 AM	Another problem I have, is daelkyr. I think they're cool and all, but CR seems kinda low for what they can do. But anyways, that's not the problem, my problem with daelkyr is I think I read somewhere in Races of Eberron I think it was, they said there's like 6... or 7 daelkyr trapped in Khyber. To me that annoys me. Because if I want to use one of those daelkyr, I'm afraid (like I said in the above paragraph) on stepping on some future fluff. Surely I can just create an unknown daelkyr, change the number, but it still bothers me. Something else bothers me too... how are the daelkyr stuck in Khyber??? Gatekeeper magic??? I dont get it. :confused: Well, don't worry about future fluff. I think Hellcow himself said you can basically do whatever you want with the setting once you buy the book; there's no overreaching metaplot.
Hellcow 02-21-06, 04:40 PM	I like the idea that Dragons in this setting are not just brainless monsters to kill, but actual intelligent, active people with their own agendas... Um, because it was in a dragonshard, and only Keith writes dragonshards? Edymnion, where in the Dragonshard do I suggest that dragons are mindless monsters or should be treated as such? Look at the quotes from the Dragonshard. "Dragons are free-willed creatures, and they possess all of the myriad personality traits that can be found in humanity." Dragons are not mindless. They are complex and intelligent creatures. "While the rogue wyrm may fill the image of the isolated dragon, remember the cunning and genius of dragons." Ditto. "Others may wish to pursue arcane experiments forbidden by the rulers of Argonnessen... battling a thieves' guild, (adventurers) could be taken by surprise when they discover the true power behind the organization. " Dragons don't just sit around watching dust gather on their hoard. They may be engaged in mystical experiments. They may be puppeteers influencing the humanoid civilizations around their lair. But they certainly aren't "mindless monsters." "Both DM and party should always consider the cunning of the dragon. Part of the creature's power is its intelligence, and a dragon rarely allows itself to be taken by surprise. Dragons are not simply monsters: They are the children of sky and earth -- the legacy of the first age of Eberron. An encounter with a dragon -- rogue or not -- should always establish the power and majesty of these creatures, and it should always be a significant event." Again, how are you deriving "mindless monster hunt" from this? You're certainly entitled to your dislike of rogue wyrms, just as everyone on this thread is entitled to their various preferences. I like kalashtar, but I won't try to change your opinion there; some people like 'em, others don't. But I didn't write the "sometimes they're just hungy" line in the PGtE... and I don't consider the Role of Dragons Dragonshard to be butt-kissing. My intention was and is to support the idea that not every dragon is tied to Argonnessen or the Chamber, and to clarify that it is possible to have a lone dragon as enemy or ally. But any scene involving a dragon should be a dramatic and significant event... which, I believe, is exactly what the Dragonshard says.
Just another user 02-21-06, 05:20 PM	If you want to go around killing dragon for xp and treasure but don't want to sell down True Dragons there is a valide alternative, Dragonkins. Chimeras, wyerns, Hydras, Behirs, what-have-you. There a lot of monsters that can enter in the category "a dragon is threatening my village". after all is not like the average commoner or even expert would have the ranks in knowledge(arcana), or what you need, to say the difference. They are not smart as dragons (generally), can be almsot as dangerous, have generally a nice ttreasure, and the PCs don't risks to pull the wrath of Argonesssen on their head if they succed.
Edymnion 02-21-06, 07:03 PM	I just don't like the idea of an Eberron dragon *EVER* being "just another encounter". I run 'em more as almost-demi-gods. As in, you will never see one unless there is a VERY good reason for it. Meeting a dragon in Eberron should, IMO, be like meeting a godly avatar in any other setting.
Romulus LoneWolf 02-21-06, 07:26 PM	I just don't like the idea of an Eberron dragon *EVER* being "just another encounter". I run 'em more as almost-demi-gods. As in, you will never see one unless there is a VERY good reason for it. Meeting a dragon in Eberron should, IMO, be like meeting a godly avatar in any other setting. Well, I can easily imagine dragons being treated as powerful individual monsters, but godly avatars? I don't agree with that, except as for the belief system of the Seren tribes, whom the people of Khorvaire tend to dismiss as "superstitious barbarians". I like the idea of Rogue dragons, because then I can use powerful rogue dragons as "Boss" monsters, either as the evil mastermind of a dark plot, or as an ally of said evil mastermind (but never a "minion", of course.)
golem470 02-21-06, 07:35 PM	See the great thing I see about Eberron is that it really has something for everyone. It has so many different playable aspects that call out to so many different groups of players and Gm's a like that in some ways for me it is the perfect setting. I am actually tied between Eberron and Forgotten realms on which I like more, eberron I love the style and atmosphere and all the different aspects of it, while with forgotten realms I like the very deep background history and how most things are already predefined at least to a point. In many ways they are oppsites of each other not saying that eberron doesn't have a great background story its just has been fleshed out as much as forgotten realms.
Edymnion 02-21-06, 08:38 PM	Well, I can easily imagine dragons being treated as powerful individual monsters, but godly avatars? I don't agree with thatRemember that there are no gods running around Eberron to show off, and that Adult dragons are very big, extremely powerful, and have lived for longer than any elf. And when almost no NPC in the entire setting is more than lvl 2-3, that CR 15+ Dragon is going to be pretty darn godlike to them.
Hellcow 02-21-06, 10:19 PM	I just don't like the idea of an Eberron dragon *EVER* being "just another encounter". Neither do I. Read the last sentence of the Dragonshard again: how is this unclear? Dragons are among the most intelligent and powerful creatures on Eberron, and this should always come across in an encounter. I agree with you: in a world without gods, a dragon of significant age is as good as a demigod to most people. But that doesn't change the fact that they are living creatures, and furthermore, not outsiders (who I personally run as near-embodiments of ideas, and thus with less free will and deviation in personality than mortal creatures). The vast majority of dragons associate with Argonnessen, and those who don't place themselves at an even greater risk and require even greater cunning. Are they mindless monsters? No. The lone dragon is ever bit as close to a demigod as the agent of the Chamber. But she isn't part of a pantheon. She's going to be less predictable, if you've dealt with dragons before. What I don't get, Edymnion, is that we seem to have the same level of respect for dragons... and I don't see where the Dragonshard contradicts this, implies that dragons should be XP fodder, or that they should ever be played as dumb monsters. In fact, the summary statement says precisely the reverse of this. So where exactly is my butt-kissing coming in? In any case, I'm off to Winter Fantasy: I look foward to see what other people have said on my return.
Euangelion 02-21-06, 10:50 PM	Remember that there are no gods running around Eberron to show off, and that Adult dragons are very big, extremely powerful, and have lived for longer than any elf. Whah?!? When you say "Adult" with a capital A, you're referring to the age category, right? Adult dragon: 101-200 years old. That's not even middle aged for an elf!! Even going to Mature Adult puts you at 400 years, still within the life expectancy of a living elf. (I won't mention the Undying Court if you don't.)
dang 02-22-06, 01:32 AM	Whah?!? When you say "Adult" with a capital A, you're referring to the age category, right? Adult dragon: 101-200 years old. That's not even middle aged for an elf!! Even going to Mature Adult puts you at 400 years, still within the life expectancy of a living elf. (I won't mention the Undying Court if you don't.) i have to agree. more specifically, the age of elven social maturity is what, 110? 400 would be just past middle age for an elf (with a lifespan of 700+, PG3.5). a 700 yr. old dragon is already classified as "very old." add to that the fact that elves reach physical maturity at 25 (RotW), and a venerable elf *could* have a much greater amount of life experience than a similarly aged dragon, cast higher-level spells, and have a fairy or pseudo dragon familiar. ;) as for dragons, an adult dragon has a CR of 14, and a mature adult 16. very impressive, certainly, but hardly borderline divine -- even in eberron. (only elves have achieved that status.) societies of dragons have acted *in concert* to impressive effect (although notably usually through 3rd parties... the giants, the coatl, the orcs). however individual upstarts, while formidable, are definitely assailable by a seasoned and well-prepared group of PCs. i think it's fine to reserve the dragons for deus ex machina purposes in a campaign, but i don't think that's exactly supported by the published literature... it IS dungeons *and dragons,* after all. i pity the PCs who are always told slaying a wyrm is outta their league. but once again, it remains (to quote Bobby and Britney) your prerogative. :D
Pixel_Shock 02-22-06, 03:19 PM	I feel that you're short-changing yourself if you never let your version of Eberron advance or change. Not to mention short-changing the players by rail-roading them through plots where they don't make any real difference. Unless you're only using published adventures, I don't see how it's possible not to significantly alter the published material in high level campaigns. Well, at least if you want to have a story with a plot rather than just some brainless hack 'n' slash (which some players don't mind, but still...)
Arcane Guyver 02-22-06, 04:40 PM	A fix for 'rogue dragon' encounters: Isn't there a type of dragon in the MM2...Linnorms?...that are quite feral, downright dinosauric in their degenerate nature. Read the 'Road to Death' for more ideas on how to use various draconic things in your game (being intentionally vague here). As far as 'advancing the world,' there's plenty of things to do besides go into the mysteries of the world or kickstarting the next war. In fact, I'd recommend 'advancing the world' exactly once during a 20-level campaign. By advancing, I mean taking down one of the big name BBEGs, negotiating a more lasting treaty between two nations, or (heaven forbid) solve the mystery of the Mourning.
Derys_the_Blade 02-22-06, 04:44 PM	Right at the moment, I'm a little down on the attempt that Player's Guide to Eberron has made to insert every race and core class yet published in a D&D product into Eberron. The ECS didn't take the "If it's in D&D, it has a place..." philosophy further than the core books and elements from the monster books and EPH, and S:CoT had a list of prestige classes from various sources but didn't explicitly try to inject them into the backstory. It reminds me a little of my ancient grumblings about 1e Forgotten Realms becoming a dump zone for anything and everything any author thought up...and Eberron has far more unique elements to dilute than Forgotten Realms did. I don't get it. Where in "If it's in D&D, it has a place..." come to mean, "If it's in D&D Core Rules..."
Just another user 02-22-06, 04:54 PM	I don't get it. Where in "If it's in D&D, it has a place..." come to mean, "If it's in D&D Core Rules..." In the ECS, page 8, paragraph "ten things you need to know", the first point. Read it well.
Khaine 02-22-06, 05:40 PM	While I love Eberron, and have even before it came out thanks to Dragon magazine, I do have a few gripes, with potential solutions to said problems. 1) Kalashtar - They're cool, but rather one dimensional. Their focus on fighting the Dreaming Dark etc is great, but they seem somewhat lacking in personality. Plus, there really isn't a lot to distinguish they from humans (mindlink 1/d and some skill bonus just don't cut it). Half the time, I simply forget the kalashtar exist in Eberron, they're that bland. Not good. Solution - Put out more info/material on the kalashtar that doesn't involve their war against the Inspired/Dreaming Dark. Races of Eberron was a good start, but more needs to be done IMO to give the race a personality IMO. 2) The Daelkyr - The Lords of Xoriat (ie the Far Realm) are human-looking humanoids with some symbiotes??? Sorry Keith, but that's just wrong. The big-boys of Xoriat should be Cthuloid monstrosities of the nastiest sort, things that are not even remotely comprehendable let alone human. Bad Keith, bad! (or whoever made the Daelkyr as they are) Solution - Give the Daelkyr an alternate (true) form, perhaps unique to each individual, kinda like the psuedonatural template only with real stats. Or, alternatively, reveal in some new sourcebook that the daelkyr are not the true lords of Xoriat and other nastier creatures are. 3) Oriental Eberron - This gripe is directly out of the Player's Guide to Eberron. Why, for the love of the Shadow, did the writers keep the oriental names for the classes from the Complete series? Introducing the classes themselves into Eberron is great, but keeping the oriental-style names for them erodes the vermilisitude of the setting. Plus, the wu jen class is really not necessary. Simply because these wizards are hermits is not a good enough reason to justify inclusion of a separate core class for them. Solution - Rename the samurai, shugenja, and ninja (maybe in a Dragonshard or something), giving them names that fit the setting better. Ditch the wu jen.
Romulus LoneWolf 02-22-06, 08:09 PM	While I love Eberron, and have even before it came out thanks to Dragon magazine, I do have a few gripes, with potential solutions to said problems. 1) Kalashtar - They're cool, but rather one dimensional. Their focus on fighting the Dreaming Dark etc is great, but they seem somewhat lacking in personality. Plus, there really isn't a lot to distinguish they from humans (mindlink 1/d and some skill bonus just don't cut it). Half the time, I simply forget the kalashtar exist in Eberron, they're that bland. Not good. Solution - Put out more info/material on the kalashtar that doesn't involve their war against the Inspired/Dreaming Dark. Races of Eberron was a good start, but more needs to be done IMO to give the race a personality IMO. The key to understanding the Kalashtar, in my opinion, is simple: They're Jedi. A whole race of Jedi in mentality, basically. And don't forget the use of Psionics. The Kalashtar are a good excuse for using everything in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and then hunt for extra material on Psionics to add to that. 2) The Daelkyr - The Lords of Xoriat (ie the Far Realm) are human-looking humanoids with some symbiotes??? Sorry Keith, but that's just wrong. The big-boys of Xoriat should be Cthuloid monstrosities of the nastiest sort, things that are not even remotely comprehendable let alone human. Bad Keith, bad! (or whoever made the Daelkyr as they are) Solution - Give the Daelkyr an alternate (true) form, perhaps unique to each individual, kinda like the psuedonatural template only with real stats. Or, alternatively, reveal in some new sourcebook that the daelkyr are not the true lords of Xoriat and other nastier creatures are. Are you kidding me? Making the Daelkyr human-like in appearance only makes them more horrible.. Think about it.. You look at all the Aberrations the Daelkyr made, you hear about how horrible and monstrous those Daelkyr are supposed to be, worst then their own creations, and you imagine they look like something that makes the Illithid look pretty... ...And then, when you finally meet a Daelkyr, you're shocked to be greeted by a creature with a human-like face which grins at you. And their apperance is the only thing even remotely human about them. The Daelkyr are nigh-immortal, ancient and alien creatures with a thought process that's even more Inhuman then anything you could possibly imagine. Making the Daelkyr into nastier versions of Aboleths and Illithids would be too easy. I prefer the sinister twist that Hellcow took for Eberron. 3) Oriental Eberron - This gripe is directly out of the Player's Guide to Eberron. Why, for the love of the Shadow, did the writers keep the oriental names for the classes from the Complete series? Introducing the classes themselves into Eberron is great, but keeping the oriental-style names for them erodes the vermilisitude of the setting. Plus, the wu jen class is really not necessary. Simply because these wizards are hermits is not a good enough reason to justify inclusion of a separate core class for them. Solution - Rename the samurai, shugenja, and ninja (maybe in a Dragonshard or something), giving them names that fit the setting better. Ditch the wu jen. We're talking about a world with place names like Karrnath, Talenta, Aerenal, and people named Boranel ir'Wynarn, Merrix d'Cannith, Dania ir'Vran, and so on... Names like Samurai, Shugenja, Ninja and Wu Jen don't sound too out of place to me. And the Wu Jen are basically an exotic type of Arcane spellcasters, different enough from Wizards in their approach to deserve a different class.
(Psi)SeveredHead 02-22-06, 08:27 PM	I don't get it. Where in "If it's in D&D, it has a place..." come to mean, "If it's in D&D Core Rules..." You're taking his words in vain. The key to me is that I have always meant this to be "Everything COULD have a place in Eberron"... not that everything does.
Rechan 02-22-06, 08:34 PM	Romulus, this thread wasn't made so people could argue about why somoene's dislike of something is wrong. I just wanted to know what individuals didn't like; don't feel like you have to defend Eberron. :)
Gez 02-23-06, 07:19 AM	1. Drow. 2. Aerenal elves.
Bocamb 02-23-06, 09:08 AM	Romulus, this thread wasn't made so people could argue about why somoene's dislike of something is wrong. I just wanted to know what individuals didn't like; don't feel like you have to defend Eberron. :) Here, here! I find the dragons and the draconic prophecy unsatisfactory. I love the dragonmarked houses, but I think my distaste for the dragons and the Chamber stems from the fact that the dragons are too sublimated in the campaign: the houses operate like corporations and don't really seem to care about their role in the draconic prophecy - at least not publicly. They've lost sight of their roots, so to speak. (HINT TO HELLCOW: I'm willing to reconsider dragons if something were to be published on what the houses think of their dragonmarks and how they view themselves in the scheme of the draconic prophecy as a whole). Dragonmarks are parts of a vast ever-changing code, but nobody thinks of the marks in this way; their approach is much more utilitarian. I don't plan on using dragon prophets or Daelkyr half-bloods for that matter... I also don't plan on sending my group to Aerenal. I like the concept of elves worshipping their dead ancestors, but I agree with whomever posted earlier that travel to the isle would take all of the mystery out of the elves...
Tom McCarthy 02-23-06, 10:51 AM	the houses operate like corporations and don't really seem to care about their role in the draconic prophecy Isn't this exactly why the conservative dragons are so annoyed at the 'lesser races' even carrying dragonmarks?
LucRivNor 02-23-06, 12:15 PM	What is fun in Eberron is that you acn customize it. Exemple : - I run a campaign with the Mourning really seems to be du to a Cannith miss experiment. I run another seems to be du to Karnath war. - Jala of the Silver Flamme were possess by a devil in the flamme VS Flamme were the Cavalry of the PC (resolve problem fast) - Seeing Karkath organisationa as a hole VS big rivality with Karnath government and Emerald Claw and Blood of Vol - DragonMark Houses working a lot together VS big Rivality It is fun to destabilize player. As a DM, I try to not have a fix idea of what are the real motive of my NPC. Try to have like 3 acceptable motives and reveal the more fun (in the term of the story) for the players.
EvilDrPuma 02-23-06, 01:14 PM	Isn't this exactly why the conservative dragons are so annoyed at the 'lesser races' even carrying dragonmarks? Maybe some of them, but on the other hand, the Prophecy isn't really supposed to be common knowledge. Seems a little unreasonable to be down on the dragonmarked for not fulfilling a role that they might not even know about. My impression was that some of the dragons were upset about the dragonmarked simply because the marks appear on members of younger, "lesser" races who had spent the first few ages of history as slaves, primitives, or nuisances. Like many academics confronted with a glaring inconsistency in a pet theory, they weren't prepared for the notion that humans, dwarves, elves, halflings and gnomes were important--and half-elves and half-orcs, for the love of Siberys, didn't even exist as distinct races until the last few thousand years.
Gwenfloor 02-23-06, 03:53 PM	Well, ever since Five Nations was released, NPCs have been climbing the power level, and PC Classes are becoming more commonplace than NPC Classes. Also, I heard rumors that Wizards of the Coast broke a trust with Keith making more information on Xendrik. It was supposed to be a mysterious continent. Now with PGtE released, my plans for a Yuan-ti Empire are ruined!
Euangelion 02-23-06, 04:15 PM	Also, I heard rumors that Wizards of the Coast broke a trust with Keith making more information on Xendrik. It was supposed to be a mysterious continent. Now with PGtE released, my plans for a Yuan-ti Empire are ruined! First of all, rumor-mongering like that could potentially cause Keith trouble that he doesn't need or deserve, especially since he's working on the Xen'drik sourcebook coming out this summer. Second, the unspoken spirit behind this thread is that nothing is written into stone about Eberron, least of all Xen'drik. Ignore or change whatever you want about PGtE, and proceed with your designs of a yuan-ti empire in Xen'drik. But first, tell us what in PGtE you would remove to allow your empire, since that's exactly what this thread is about.
PoeticJustice 02-23-06, 04:41 PM	Well, ever since Five Nations was released, NPCs have been climbing the power level, and PC Classes are becoming more commonplace than NPC Classes. Also, I heard rumors that Wizards of the Coast broke a trust with Keith making more information on Xendrik. It was supposed to be a mysterious continent. Now with PGtE released, my plans for a Yuan-ti Empire are ruined! This is incorrect. I happen to know for a fact that Keith is very excited about Secrets of Xen'Drik, a sourcebook devoted to the Lost Continent and due to be released in a few months' time. While everyone has their doubts about the Player's Guide, the map almost exclusively charts previously published material such as the location of Stormreach or Prae'Xir'Rex (sp?).
DoveArrow 02-23-06, 09:10 PM	This is why you're supposed to level up NPCs - they're doing stuff too. That's what all the plotting is about. I understand that. However, I feel almost like there's a glass ceiling on how high a level you can advance an NPC. For example, it says in Sharn: City of Towers that you won't find many magic items with a caster level of 10 or higher, because most NPCs aren't that high level. Meanwhile, the Eberron Campaign Setting says that most NPCs don't take levels in PC classes, but rather take levels in the NPC classes. However, any time that I've tried to pit my players against a creature with levels in an NPC class (even if it's just one or two levels), they have presented absolutely no challenge for the PCs (think Indiana Jones shooting the guy with the sword in Raiders of the Lost Ark, only imagine that scene as boring instead of funny, if you want to understand what I mean by 'no challenge'). So when I say that I'm having a difficult time with presenting the PCs with a challenge that also feels like it fits into the campaign setting, this is what I'm talking about.
Baron_Erdrich 02-23-06, 09:44 PM	Well, ever since Five Nations was released, NPCs have been climbing the power level, and PC Classes are becoming more commonplace than NPC Classes. Also, I heard rumors that Wizards of the Coast broke a trust with Keith making more information on Xendrik. It was supposed to be a mysterious continent. Now with PGtE released, my plans for a Yuan-ti Empire are ruined! Well to a certain degree, this thread is about what you use in Eberron and what you change, so go with your Yuan-ti.
Rechan 02-23-06, 10:09 PM	I understand that. However, I feel almost like there's a glass ceiling on how high a level you can advance an NPC. For example, it says in Sharn: City of Towers that you won't find many magic items with a caster level of 10 or higher, because most NPCs aren't that high level. Meanwhile, the Eberron Campaign Setting says that most NPCs don't take levels in PC classes, but rather take levels in the NPC classes. However, any time that I've tried to pit my players against a creature with levels in an NPC class (even if it's just one or two levels), they have presented absolutely no challenge for the PCs (think Indiana Jones shooting the guy with the sword in Raiders of the Lost Ark, only imagine that scene as boring instead of funny, if you want to understand what I mean by 'no challenge'). So when I say that I'm having a difficult time with presenting the PCs with a challenge that also feels like it fits into the campaign setting, this is what I'm talking about. NPC classes are for mooks. The guy in Raiders of the Lost Ark you mention was on screen all of how long? He was a mook - a guy who could only take one hit and was meant to go down without a fight. Indie manages to punch mook Nazis out with one lick - but the guy that Indie faces in front of the plane? He wouldn't go down. That is a guy who has PC levels - he was a real challenge. PC levels are reserved for two groups: PCs, and Villains. You'll notice that most NPCs that are given stats are usually NPC classes, yet when the LoB received stats in (Five nations was it?) he was a Fighterx/Artificerx/Warforged Juggernaut. Vol isn't a magewright - she's a Wizard. Same thing with Mordain.
(Psi)SeveredHead 02-23-06, 11:09 PM	I understand that. However, I feel almost like there's a glass ceiling on how high a level you can advance an NPC. For example, it says in Sharn: City of Towers that you won't find many magic items with a caster level of 10 or higher, because most NPCs aren't that high level. Did I ever tell you how much I hate magic items? Anyway, NPCs don't exist in a vacuum. The Lord of Blades (20th-level) didn't get his body enhanced as +5 armor by visiting a shop. It was enchanted by his high artificer NPC. And he got his magic weapon by taking on one of those relatively rare high level NPCs who fought him in the Mournland and lost. Is there anything other than magic items that give you the impression that there's a glass ceiling? I only see such a ceiling when the PCs are first level. By the time they're high level, the ceiling is pretty far away. Meanwhile, the Eberron Campaign Setting says that most NPCs don't take levels in PC classes, but rather take levels in the NPC classes. True 'dat. However, any time that I've tried to pit my players against a creature with levels in an NPC class (even if it's just one or two levels), they have presented absolutely no challenge for the PCs (think Indiana Jones shooting the guy with the sword in Raiders of the Lost Ark, only imagine that scene as boring instead of funny, if you want to understand what I mean by 'no challenge'). So when I say that I'm having a difficult time with presenting the PCs with a challenge that also feels like it fits into the campaign setting, this is what I'm talking about. Most DnD campaigns I've been in used PC classes as "generic mooks". Those guards we took on, they're 6th-level fighters, not 7th-level warriors, in order to ensure a challenge. Most isn't all by any stretch, and the DM shouldn't feel a need to justify the heroic status of an NPC. It just means that most NPCs can't challenge the PCs, which isn't suprising considering most NPCs are less than 3rd-level anyway. If even 5% of NPCs are potentially challenging, that's leaving you with, say, 10,000 potential NPC opponents in Sharn. (I think Sharn has 200,000 people in it.) Maybe I should try explaining it from the D20 Modern point of view. D20 Modern Ordinaries (non-heroic NPCs) almost never exceed 10th-level. They're extremely rare even at that level, and probably venerable. But heroic NPCs can go all the way to 20th-level. So in a Modern campaign, there's an implied ceiling for "non-heroic" NPC levels but not for PCs with class levels, who, at 5% of the population, are still significant in number.
talion09 02-23-06, 11:37 PM	Did I ever tell you how much I hate magic items? Anyway, NPCs don't exist in a vacuum. The Lord of Blades (20th-level) didn't get his body enhanced as +5 armor by visiting a shop. It was enchanted by his high artificer NPC. And he got his magic weapon by taking on one of those relatively rare high level NPCs who fought him in the Mournland and lost. Is there anything other than magic items that give you the impression that there's a glass ceiling? I only see such a ceiling when the PCs are first level. By the time they're high level, the ceiling is pretty far away. True 'dat. Well, that guy should have heroic class levels. I mean, he's practically a named (if minor) villain. Eberron is a bit funny that way. Most DnD campaigns I've been in used PC classes as "generic mooks". Those guards we took on, they're 6th-level fighters, not 7th-level warriors, in order to ensure a challenge. Most isn't all by any stretch, and the DM shouldn't feel a need to justify the heroic status of an NPC. It just means that most NPCs can't challenge the PCs, which isn't suprising considering most NPCs are less than 3rd-level anyway. If even 5% of NPCs are potentially challenging, that's leaving you with, say, 10,000 potential NPC opponents in Sharn. (I think Sharn has 200,000 people in it.) Maybe I should try explaining it from the D20 Modern point of view. D20 Modern Ordinaries (non-heroic NPCs) almost never exceed 10th-level. They're extremely rare even at that level, and probably venerable. But heroic NPCs can go all the way to 20th-level. So in a Modern campaign, there's an implied ceiling for "non-heroic" NPC levels but not for PC class levels. Also, the "mook" bad guys exist to aid the real villains and act as expendable cannon fodder, not as a direct threat to the PC's. For example, I just finished a guest-dm stint (our DM had a family issue and was out of town) and in one of the encounters, the 7 5th level PCs were confronted by a squad of Emerald Claw baddies. Most of the EC goons were the standard Warrior 2 guys presented in the ECS, (and really that pic at the beginning of the Organization chapter of the ECS with the Brelish Citadel agent taking on 20+ EC goons isn't that far off from reality, lol) but I didn't have the goons try to directly take on the PC's. Instead, the goons were grappling, trying to trip with their flails, and using Aid Another actions to make sure that the "elite" (Warrior2/Fighter2) squad leader could land his hits almost every time. And when one of the PC's was tripped successfully, or grappled successfully, then all the goons in the immediate area piled on. Think of a movie fight in a bar brawl when the hero gets grabbed from behind and two other bad guys move in and land a flurry of body blows before the hero can get his arms free again. And if the opportunity presented itself (this was in Sharn), they tried to bullsrush the PC's over the railings. Sure they wouldn't make that Bullsrush check very often, but considering falling from a Sharn skybridge is either death or at the very least being out of the fight while drifting like a feather downward... it kept the PC's on their toes and added a sense of danger and urgency to the fight that just having the goons take their melee +4 attacks round after round wouldn't of produced. In this encounter, I used 1 elite (Warrior2/Fighter2) squad leader, 6 goons (typical EC soldier from the ECS) and 3 Karnathi zombies (CR3) and presented a credible threat to the party that kept the players entertained. And only 1 of the 7 NPCs that weren't monsters had "PC" class levels or was over 2nd level.
talion09 02-23-06, 11:40 PM	NPC classes are for mooks. The guy in Raiders of the Lost Ark you mention was on screen all of how long? He was a mook - a guy who could only take one hit and was meant to go down without a fight. Indie manages to punch mook Nazis out with one lick - but the guy that Indie faces in front of the plane? He wouldn't go down. That is a guy who has PC levels - he was a real challenge. PC levels are reserved for two groups: PCs, and Villains. You'll notice that most NPCs that are given stats are usually NPC classes, yet when the LoB received stats in (Five nations was it?) he was a Fighterx/Artificerx/Warforged Juggernaut. Vol isn't a magewright - she's a Wizard. Same thing with Mordain. The other thing is that the mook with the scimitar that Indy shot... he did his job, didn't he? From a plot point of view, he wasn't supposed to kill or even particularly challenge Indy... he was supposed to distract him long enough for the girl to be kidnapped.
Edymnion 02-23-06, 11:43 PM	Yup, any player that dismisses an encounter just because its full of low level characters most likely hasn't had a DM that knows how to run a mob encounter. Trust me, you give me a couple hundred lvl 1 commoners, and I'll bring down even Epic level characters with them. A single ant may not be a threat, but you kick over the nest, and only an idiot will stay around trying to step on them all.
(Psi)SeveredHead 02-23-06, 11:49 PM	Yup, any player that dismisses an encounter just because its full of low level characters most likely hasn't had a DM that knows how to run a mob encounter. Gee that's nice - bashing the 95% of DMs who don't have that unusual skill. There's a reason the DMG has mob rules published in it. The basic rules set doesn't make running mobs fun at all.
Grymar 02-24-06, 09:00 AM	Also, the "mook" bad guys exist to aid the real villains and act as expendable cannon fodder, not as a direct threat to the PC's. For example, I just finished a guest-dm stint (our DM had a family issue and was out of town) and in one of the encounters, the 7 5th level PCs were confronted by a squad of Emerald Claw baddies. Most of the EC goons were the standard Warrior 2 guys presented in the ECS, (and really that pic at the beginning of the Organization chapter of the ECS with the Brelish Citadel agent taking on 20+ EC goons isn't that far off from reality, lol) but I didn't have the goons try to directly take on the PC's. Instead, the goons were grappling, trying to trip with their flails, and using Aid Another actions to make sure that the "elite" (Warrior2/Fighter2) squad leader could land his hits almost every time. And when one of the PC's was tripped successfully, or grappled successfully, then all the goons in the immediate area piled on. Think of a movie fight in a bar brawl when the hero gets grabbed from behind and two other bad guys move in and land a flurry of body blows before the hero can get his arms free again. And if the opportunity presented itself (this was in Sharn), they tried to bullsrush the PC's over the railings. Sure they wouldn't make that Bullsrush check very often, but considering falling from a Sharn skybridge is either death or at the very least being out of the fight while drifting like a feather downward... it kept the PC's on their toes and added a sense of danger and urgency to the fight that just having the goons take their melee +4 attacks round after round wouldn't of produced. In this encounter, I used 1 elite (Warrior2/Fighter2) squad leader, 6 goons (typical EC soldier from the ECS) and 3 Karnathi zombies (CR3) and presented a credible threat to the party that kept the players entertained. And only 1 of the 7 NPCs that weren't monsters had "PC" class levels or was over 2nd level. Excellent tactics. I'm going to have to borrow this. Thanks.
igotsmeakabob!! 02-24-06, 01:25 PM	Yeah I'm going to use something similar... I can't believe I had forgotten about that kind of stuff.
talion09 02-24-06, 02:26 PM	Well, ever since Five Nations was released, NPCs have been climbing the power level, and PC Classes are becoming more commonplace than NPC Classes. Well, I haven't actually gone back and looked through my books to discern if there has been any powercreep in terms of actual levels... But I do have to say that I have no problem with 5 Nations (or other sourcebooks) using PC classes when statting out NPCs. Its not like they are saying that every Cannith Member in Sharn is a Artificer 3 or something, right? And the NPCs that actually get mentioned by name and have a brief notation like (Human LE Artificer 3) after their name... well, those guys are exceptional. How many people are "covered" in 5 nations going by the population stats for each nation? And how many are explicitly said to have PC levels? Or implied to have PC levels in the case of organizations like the Citadel or Phantom Knights? I don't see the problem myself. IMHO, it has never been a blanket exclusion of NPCs not being allowed to take PC classes. Rather, it is a case of only exceptional and rare NPC's being able to take PC classes.
talion09 02-24-06, 03:00 PM	Yup, any player that dismisses an encounter just because its full of low level characters most likely hasn't had a DM that knows how to run a mob encounter. Trust me, you give me a couple hundred lvl 1 commoners, and I'll bring down even Epic level characters with them. A single ant may not be a threat, but you kick over the nest, and only an idiot will stay around trying to step on them all. As someone who has been on both ends of a party of mid-high level adventurers get taken down because they said "Eh, they are only 1/2 HD kobolds, how tough could they be..." (Back in AD&D/2nd Ed) I'll just add that intelligent tactics, tricks and traps & good ol' fashioned numbers can be used to take down pretty much anyone who is overconfident because they are higher level than their foes. Quantity does have a quality of of its own, at least if played intelligently.
treehouse916 02-24-06, 03:22 PM	Personally, I build my mooks however I feel will make a particular encounter most interesting and fun for the PCs, and damn the demographics if they try to get in the way. Tactics are important, but they are only a fourth of the total equation (the other three fourths being terrain, build and backdrop). The way it has worked out so far, my mooks have been equal parts pure monster, NPC class-based and PC class-based. Not sure if that trend will continue into the higher levels, but it is working well right now. That said, your encounter sounds like it went quite awesomely, talion09. In particular, the bull-rush tactic sounds like it would give even my haughty PCs a bit of a scare. They are in Sharn for the next couple of adventures, so I might have to snag a bit of that :) I also think (Psi)SeveredHead's comment about demographics is pertinent here. What are the chances that the PCs will need more than 10,000 viable opponents in even an entire campaign built around Sharn? The same holds true everywhere else. Sure, there aren't lots of viable foes compared to the number of nobodies in Khorvaire, but there are far more than enough to fill an entire campaign with interesting and varied opponents.
Romulus LoneWolf 02-24-06, 07:40 PM	Well, ever since Five Nations was released, NPCs have been climbing the power level, and PC Classes are becoming more commonplace than NPC Classes. Also, I heard rumors that Wizards of the Coast broke a trust with Keith making more information on Xendrik. It was supposed to be a mysterious continent. Now with PGtE released, my plans for a Yuan-ti Empire are ruined! Dude.. Xen'drick is like a frickin' HUGE continent.. If you -really- want a Yuan-Ti empire, you can easily squeeze one in an isolated part of the continent.