Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 08-01-07, 07:23 PM	Here's the story. I'm playing a kalashtar by the name of Qui'elle. He's a true goody goody. Almost exalted, but without the cheese. At one point, he took in an orphan girl off the streets (around 6 years old). She now fondly calls him "Unca Qui'elle." (such a cute little kid's voice - it's adorable). Knowing how dangerous his life would be, he entrusted the girl to the care of a certain friend - a warforged who wanted nothing more than a family. Such a sweet story. It deserves a happy ending. Unfortunately, I don't see it happening. Recently Qui'elle has discovered that the girl has been mind seeded by the Dreaming Dark. :eek: Yup, that sweet little girl has been replaced by an evil Quori seeking my destruction. So here's the question: what now? I certainly don't want to kill her. Is there any RAW way I could restore her? Or do I have to quest for Wish or Miracle? And should I tell her "father" the warforged? It would be awful to endanger him by keeping him in the dark, but I don't want to break his heart by letting him now what monstrosity has replaced his little girl. What do I do?
Charles Phipps 08-01-07, 07:38 PM	Well for the moral answer, I think telling the warforged is appropriate. Along with stating that you will do everything in your power to help free her from the curse. Ignorance is just playing into the hands of the Quori.
LoneStranger 08-01-07, 07:39 PM	Yeah I have to agree that you should let him know so he'll be ready but also tell him you're looking for a way to undo what happened.
Koesherbacon 08-01-07, 07:41 PM	I agree. Think of it as you as her teacher, you would be obligated to tell her parent and/or guardian that something is amiss. Then I would wager that a quest could be taken into the Dreaming Dark itself, to rid her of the Quori inhabiting her.
DragoonDarkfire 08-01-07, 08:15 PM	Tell the warforged and look for someone to help. The Keeper of the Flame is one. There might also be some powerful psychic entity that can restore her.
SkyOdin 08-01-07, 08:38 PM	Tell the warforged, grab your companions, and go on a long, arduous quest to rescue the girl. It's what heroes do. Don't give up, and you might find help in Flamekeep or Adar. Good luck.
Belabras 08-02-07, 02:06 AM	The Keeper of the Flame in Thrane, The Keeper of the Word in Adar, the Deathless Council, and the Dragons of Argonessan are your best chances for finding the necessary power to reverse the process. And a world spanning quest to save the mind of an orphan girl seems very Eberron to me.
Hopeless 08-02-07, 03:29 AM	The Keeper of the Flame in Thrane, The Keeper of the Word in Adar, the Deathless Council, and the Dragons of Argonessan are your best chances for finding the necessary power to reverse the process. And a world spanning quest to save the mind of an orphan girl seems very Eberron to me. Yes it sounds very apt, but it also depends on the dm because it could also end very badly even if you do succeed, well let us know what happened won't you? How did she get mindseeded in the first place? Was it prior to meeting your character? Unlikely as they would hardly infect someone of such little interest which means they found out about her link to your character which leaves the possibility that the warforged might have been in on it.
DBlizzard 08-02-07, 04:48 AM	The "Quest for a Cure" has been mentioned. Then I would wager that a quest could be taken into the Dreaming Dark itself, to rid her of the Quori inhabiting her. I think this is a misunderstanding. There isn't a Quori "inhabiting" her (assuming you have passed the one week germination period). She is now the personality the Quori had at the appropriate level. One option is to "save her." The personality she has now can evolve. It's not in a quori body now so that probably opens up more options for it now. "Showing it the evil of its ways" is a possibility. Admittedly, it takes the right DM and right group to pull this off.
DBlizzard 08-02-07, 04:50 AM	Unfortunately, I don't see it happening. Recently Qui'elle has discovered that the girl has been mind seeded by the Dreaming Dark. :eek: Yup, that sweet little girl has been replaced by an evil Quori seeking my destruction. So here's the question: what now? How long has it been? Within a week a permanent protection from evil will prevent the mind seed from taking hold and give you time. As written (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSeed.htm), it's implied that once it germinates there isn't very much you can do. Otherwise, a germinating seed can be removed (prior to germination) only by psychic chirurgery, reality revision, or similarly high-level effects.
Kensan_Oni 08-02-07, 02:37 PM	Exorcism, as written by the ECS, under Possession. Should work.
Belabras 08-02-07, 04:33 PM	Exorcism, as written by the ECS, under Possession. Should work. Not with a germinated Mind Seed it doesn't. Mind Seed isn't possession, it is the overwriting of a mind by another mind. After the process is complete only major reality altering power/magic can reverse it.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 08-02-07, 04:41 PM	I most definitely must quest to save little Suzy (the girl). Currently I still trust Hammer (the warforged - Big Daddy Hammer - lol). Anyway, I do have my own idea of how the Quori may have found out - watching her dreams. When I first found her, it took a little while to get her to Hammer. The first night, I told her a bedtime story. The origins of the kalashtar. I could picture her dreaming about that, and if the quori are keeping an eye out, it would have caugh their attention. Speaking of the bedtime story, after mind seed the victim still retains all old memories as well, correct? Because of course the story included the quori and their basic goals. Suzy called the quori evil. I made it quite clear they weren't evil (or at least not fiend evil). They're just afraid of dying. That could have an affect on the new personality, right?
DBlizzard 08-02-07, 05:57 PM	Speaking of the bedtime story, after mind seed the victim still retains all old memories as well, correct? Per the text (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSeed.htm): When integration is complete (after one week), the subject becomes you in mind as you were when you manifested the power... So, no memories. She is functionally the same mentally as the quori/inspired when it manifested the power (but 8 levels lower) after the 1 week germination time. Of course, this is by the rules as they are written. If your DM isn't following them, it could be different. As it stands, if your DM is using the RAW then she is pretty much gone after the week is over. Maybe there is an eldritch machine out there that can counter it (maybe the giants created a device and it's buried in Xen'drik somewhere). Not with a germinated Mind Seed it doesn't. Mind Seed isn't possession, it is the overwriting of a mind by another mind. After the process is complete only major reality altering power/magic can reverse it. Actually, as written the "major reality altering power/magic" only works before the process is complete. It's a really nasty power and pretty much eliminates that personality after the week. It's big weakness is that you have a week to deal with it, and a 1st level spell can neutralize it during that time for the duration. Once you get past that week...
Belabras 08-02-07, 09:38 PM	Per the text (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSeed.htm): Actually, as written the "major reality altering power/magic" only works before the process is complete. It's a really nasty power and pretty much eliminates that personality after the week. It's big weakness is that you have a week to deal with it, and a 1st level spell can neutralize it during that time for the duration. Once you get past that week... True. I hadn't caught that. However, it should be possible (via Reality Revision, Wish or Miracle) to use such an effect twice to restore the lost child - once to create an entirely new body, and once to Ressurect the lost child's life. Otherwise only an Eldritch Machine or some other Deus Ex Machina can do it. That's some major voodoo to save a little girl though. Damn, Mind Seed is nasty.
DBlizzard 08-03-07, 12:01 AM	That's some major voodoo to save a little girl though. Damn, Mind Seed is nasty. Yes. It is very limited though. It only works on humanoids. They have to be medium size or smaller. You have to touch the target. The target gets a will save. You have to spend 3000 xp to use the power. Even if all of that works, you still have a week to counter the power. If you are at a level where you are encountering people who can use 8th level powers then a permanent protection from evil shouldn't be too hard to come by until you get get a reality revision or find someone to mind seed you again (which counters the existing mind seed). For an 8th level power that's very, very tough to do and be successful (at least when dealing with appropriate challenges for you).
Subtle Knife 08-03-07, 08:50 AM	Perhaps the Adarans have a telepath powerful enough to use Psychic Chirurgy, another power capable of removing a germinating Mind Seed. Take her to Sarlona under the continued effect of a Protection from Evil (limiting its' growth), and seek their help. Not only a worthy and potentially interesting quest, but it provides an excuse (if needed) to take your Kalashtar to Sarlona! SK
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 08-03-07, 05:00 PM	I didn't find out in time. The week's up. Or at least dangerously close. DM hasn't given us that information. But Suzy's tried to kill me a few times. That could seriously complicate things.
Hannibal 08-03-07, 05:26 PM	Well, you could always have someone else mindseed her too. A benevolent Kalashtar psion could do this. It wouldn't do anything to restore her to her original self, but it would buy some time, and certainly solve the current problem of her attempts to kill you.
DBlizzard 08-03-07, 08:33 PM	Well, you could always have someone else mindseed her too. A benevolent Kalashtar psion could do this. It wouldn't do anything to restore her to her original self, but it would buy some time, and certainly solve the current problem of her attempts to kill you. I don't think this is a very good solution. There are a number of obstacles. First, it requires a 15th level psion and there aren't many floating around. Most are quori or maybe inspired. Second, it requires one willing to use 3000 xp in the attempt. Third, which complicates the second even more, there is a will save which are psions good saves. Remember, the little girl is now at least a 7th level psion. How many xp is the psion, if you can find one, willing to spend until he gets one to take?
Euangelion 08-03-07, 10:31 PM	You have to touch the target... I'm not sure from your description of the sequence of events that this step happened. It sounded more like your DM indicated the DD mind seeded her through her dreams. Otherwise your little girl is the least of your problems; you've got a hostile 15th+ level psion on your tail, in close physical proximity. Frankly, it doesn't seem to me that your DM ever intended for you to save the girl. Sorry. :weep: Also, when you said that the quori weren't "fiend evil," you were bluffing, right?
Belabras 08-04-07, 02:56 AM	I'm not sure from your description of the sequence of events that this step happened. It sounded more like your DM indicated the DD mind seeded her through her dreams. Otherwise your little girl is the least of your problems; you've got a hostile 15th+ level psion on your tail, in close physical proximity. Frankly, it doesn't seem to me that your DM ever intended for you to save the girl. Sorry. :weep: Also, when you said that the quori weren't "fiend evil," you were bluffing, right? A Quori possessing an Empty Vessel can manifest on the material plane. That's the likely culprit.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 08-04-07, 07:36 AM	Thinking about it more, are we sure the girl lost her old memories? I know she gained all the memories of the culprit quori, but does that require the erasure of the old ones? Certainly she'd see them through a different life, but still. The description says over the course of one week she begins to take on the seeder's mannerisms. Her own memories would be intact for that time. And mind seed certainly seems less useful for infiltration if the new personality can't remember what the old one did. No, Qui'elle was not bluffing when he said they weren't evil. He just held onto the hope that their actions only reflected a fear of death. Remember the last age, when the (more benevolent) denizens of Dal Quor attacked the giants? At least, according to The Gates of the Night that was the previous age. Whether or not that is the cannon truth, or even the DM's interpretation, that was Qui'elle's belief. That's probably changed now. I find it unlikely that a benevolent kalashtar will mind seed her. I find it hard to believe I'll find a high level, benevolent kalashtar knowing a power with the [evil] descriptor. A neutral one, maybe. But am I going to get him to help then? But it looks like I'm off to Adar. I gotta say, I love this rescue Suzy arc. All for a little orphan. That said, I'd love to play a "Ten years later . . . " campaign using Suzy as a PC. Imagine. A Cyran orphan, raised by a warforged, mind seeded by the quori, rescued by who knows what means. Damn. She's got quite the history.
DBlizzard 08-04-07, 02:10 PM	Thinking about it more, are we sure the girl lost her old memories? Per the section I quoted above, once it germinates the person becomes the attacker as they were when it manifested the power, mentally. Unless the attacker somehow had the targets memories at that point, I don't see it. I think those use this power to infiltrate probably have a system for dealing with it. First they make sure to get targets who are "out-of-touch." Then they try to get as much information on them as they can (remember, it's a power specific to telepaths), then they spend time in the body acclimating themselves before they meet people who were familiar with the original person. They probably even engineer a disaster to explain why their memory is hazy.
Koesherbacon 08-04-07, 02:14 PM	This is a little off topic, but completely related. What happens if some very powerful telepath is minded seeded by another, and during the week of "germination" the mind seeded telepath mind seeds another person?
Nuclear_Buddha 08-06-07, 04:05 AM	What happens if some very powerful telepath is minded seeded by another, and during the week of "germination" the mind seeded telepath mind seeds another person? Aside from the likelihood that a high-level telepath would make his Will save, it works just the way it's supposed it. Aside from the rather vague "taking on mannerisms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSeed.htm)" nothing else untoward is happening during the germination. The afflicted individual seeds someone else, creating a "life boat" for his personality. Heck, the newly-seeded version of himself could even re-seed his original body if he could get his hands on it after building his levels back up. Back to the original point of this thread: Someone else mentioned this before but by the rules as written the original orphan is gone if the seed has already germinated (if she's trying to kill people, it's a good bet it has). Any fix now is up to the DM. Something to consider, though, is that while the girl is gone, you might want to focus your efforts on the personality now in her body. After all, it doesn't stay a carbon copy of the original. And it probably has some questions about its dual nature that the original might not be well-equipped to answer. In some ways it, too, is just a disposable pawn in whatever game the quori are playing.
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 08-06-07, 03:46 PM	Well, I'll have to work on the new quori. Maybe I can convert her, if I can't save her. I can't wait to see how this all turns out. And I can't wait for a chance to play her, all grown up.
Rekko 08-07-07, 05:01 PM	If you Clone Suzy and then kill her, would her awaken clone have Suzy's memories or mind-seeded Suzy's memories? The way I would play it (after reading both Mind seed and Clone), Suzy is brought back from the dead by the means of Clone with her own soul and memories. However, she is still mind seeded. Thus, you have one more week to get rid of the Mind Seed before it germinates. Or make it more dramatic, the mind seed germinates in less than a week, giving less time for your character to help her. Remember that in Eberron there is no happy ending, so maybe you could actually succeed in rescuing Suzy, but she would have permanent scars of the events, such as being an easy target for quori possession or she has schizophrenia and the personality of the mind seed talks to her from time to time. This alternative would be highly dramatic for your character and for Hammer. You would need to kill your treasured Suzy in order to have one last chance to save her. Rekko
LoneStranger 08-07-07, 07:46 PM	I think little Suzy may not survive to become an adventurer, and if she does I think she may be just a tad off. Just a tad though, sheesh all this to have a PC in a future game ;)
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 08-07-07, 08:04 PM	I think little Suzy may not survive to become an adventurer, and if she does I think she may be just a tad off. Just a tad though, sheesh all this to have a PC in a future game ;) Well, it's not just to have a PC in a future game. It's just a benefit. ;) The idea of cloning and killing her to save her sounds like an intriguing one. Clearly one the DM would have to suggest in game. Qui'elle, Hammer, and the rest aren't too likely to come up with that idea on their own. At least not immediately.
Rekko 08-07-07, 08:14 PM	Well, you as a player can suggest it to your DM.
Rekko 08-07-07, 08:19 PM	Moreover, maybe because you used Clone, a Marut could be chasing you. When he reaches you, you could explain why and try a diplomacy check to leave you alone. If the check succeeds, the Marut may want you to track some other one who played with life and death. It could be a Blood of Vol necromancer, like it could be Vol herselfs, or even the Undying Court...
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 08-08-07, 05:57 PM	Moreover, maybe because you used Clone, a Marut could be chasing you. When he reaches you, you could explain why and try a diplomacy check to leave you alone. If the check succeeds, the Marut may want you to track some other one who played with life and death. It could be a Blood of Vol necromancer, like it could be Vol herselfs, or even the Undying Court... I like it. This campaign will be so awesome.
Rekko 08-08-07, 09:49 PM	If you need other ideas, just ask me. I'll be glad to be of help.
Nuclear_Buddha 08-09-07, 02:51 PM	If you Clone Suzy and then kill her, would her awaken clone have Suzy's memories or mind-seeded Suzy's memories? The way I would play it (after reading both Mind seed and Clone), Suzy is brought back from the dead by the means of Clone with her own soul and memories. I'm not seeing how this would work: Suzy is a quori now. That IS her. Creating a clone and then killing Suzy the quori gets you... Suzy the quori in a new clone body. Mind seed is a bad, bad thing. Why would killing her somehow bring back the original person that was destroyed? If that's how it worked, just killing her and using raise dead should do the same thing. I mean, if that's the way the DM wants to play it, cool, but I'm not seeing anything in the rules that would suggest that. The only way I can see that working is if the clone was created ahead of time: original Suzy "dies" by way of having her personality destroyed. Original soul ends up in clone, original body now under new management courtesy of quori. Even this is not fully supported by the rules.
Rekko 08-09-07, 05:36 PM	Yes, you are right, there is nothing in the texts that says that Clone can do this sort of thing to a Mind Seeded character. However, if you read both Mind Seed and Clone, you'll notice the few sentences that brought me this idea. From Mind Seed, XPH p.119 When integration is completed (after one week), the subject becomes you in mind as you were when you manifested the power. Although the subject starts off with your memories of yur experiences, it possesses its original 'soul' and physical body and is free to develop its own personality based on its own new experiences. Now from Clone, PHB p.210 If the original individual has been slain, its soul immediatly transfers to the clone. The clone is physically identical with the original and possesses the same personality and memories as the original character. For purpose of game play, I'd suggest the DM to treat soul and mind as seperate things. The soul being a stronger part than the mind of one character. Thus, the Mind Seed power give new memories and a new personality to one character. The old memories are supressed. However, the soul still remains, and thus the old memories aren't completly lost. (A bit like the trash in a computer that stores deleted files before being completly erased from your computer). So, when the soul goes into the Clone, the old memories kind of take over the Mind Seed memories. However, the Mind Seed is still present and if not dealt with will grow back to what it was. (Treat it as if the Cloned character was back himself, but when raised he is hit by the same Mind Seed power at the same time.) For purpose of it's Eberron and things are rarely as they seem and ending are never completly happy, it gives you the possibility to cure a Mind Seeded character, but throught out both difficult magic and psionic. The Mind Seed can grow faster than a week on a Clone to improve the difficulty of finding someone who can manifest psychic chirurgery or reality revision. You can also say that the germination takes one week but protection from evil doesn't delay it. Add some Maruts and Nalfeshnee and other Dolurrh agents to go after the PCs. Etc. IMO, I think this can become a pretty good game. Moreover, it surely is a cool backstory for a future character. If you don't want to accept the solving plot as it is, add a wish spell requirement, or an elditch machine, or a special location, etc. Rekko
Euangelion 08-09-07, 05:49 PM	Hold on, this isn't making any sense. Quori are immortal extraplanar outsiders. If they die, they reform on Dol Quor. Their minds, bodies, and souls form one unit, they are not seperable. Can a quori make a copy of its mind, in essense creating another quori? I'd say "no way." Thus I'd say that a quori cannot perform a mind seed. An Inspired should be able to, but the one mind seeded would only possess the mind of the empty vessel, not the quori. Otherwise you're going to get into discussions of what happens to that quori mind when Suzy dies. Does the soul of Suzy go to Dolurrh without a mind?
DBlizzard 08-09-07, 06:24 PM	Can a quori make a copy of its mind, in essense creating another quori? This is the flaw in this, IMO. Creating a copy of its mind is not "in essence creating another quori." It's creating another being (not a quori) with the memories and personality of the quori.
Rekko 08-09-07, 06:46 PM	Corrections, if an Inspired dies, its quori resident goesw back to Dal Quor. By being an outsider, when killed, a quori will eventually reincarnate into another quori over a good period of time and won't have any memory of its past life. Only the most powerful outsiders (quori for this discussion) may retain their past knowledge in parts or whole. Second, of course they can seperate mind from body. How else do you think they can possess all those Inspired? :P Third, Mind Seed is an important power for the Dreaming Dark, that is how they breed their human vessels to create the Inspired. You can't delete that just like that. Moreover, If a quori mind seeds someone, the target of the power does not become a quori. It only obtains the manifester's memories and personality, for instance the specific quori's memories and personality. What happens to that quori's mind if poor mind seeded Suzy dies, as you asked. First, if Suzy dies, her mind/memories and soul will vanish with her to Dolurrh only to merge with the Realm of the Dead after a bit of time past on the plane. Suzy's memories are not the exact memories of the quori. She only shares some past memories with the quori who mind seeded her, then she develops her own by her own experience. Developping her own can suggest she might turn away from that Dreaming Dark goal if her Warforged father and Kalashtar uncle, for instance, can persuade her to. Rekko
Rekko 08-09-07, 07:24 PM	In both Complete Psionic and Magic of Eberron, there is a power named Supress Schism which works similar to a Dispel Psionic power but only for telepath powers and with other benefits. Maybe this spell can be a possible sollution to 'dispel' the Mind Seed before its germination and once it has germinate. Maybe one could create a power called Extract Mind Seed that could solve the problem. Since the Mind Seed power is level 8, the Extract Mind Seed could be level 8 or 9. If you don't want Supress Schism or Extract Mind Seed to be working, maybe use Supress Schism in the Clone plot. On a successful dispel check, the clone could be rid of the mind seed and regain his old memories from before the mind seed, on failure the mind seed will germinate in the clone in a week leaving time to get rid of it. Or on success the mind seed will germinate in the clone after a week and on failure you can't get rid of the mind seed and the clone awakens with the memories of the mind seeded character as they were exactly before he died. Rekko
Just another user 08-10-07, 09:00 AM	Per the section I quoted above, once it germinates the person becomes the attacker as they were when it manifested the power, mentally. Unless the attacker somehow had the targets memories at that point, I don't see it. I think those use this power to infiltrate probably have a system for dealing with it. First they make sure to get targets who are "out-of-touch." Then they try to get as much information on them as they can (remember, it's a power specific to telepaths), then they spend time in the body acclimating themselves before they meet people who were familiar with the original person. They probably even engineer a disaster to explain why their memory is hazy. and remember that they become 7th level telepaths, their powers should be enough to cover for emergency and avoid discovery.
Nuclear_Buddha 08-10-07, 02:34 PM	Yes, you are right, there is nothing in the texts that says that Clone can do this sort of thing to a Mind Seeded character. However, if you read both Mind Seed and Clone, you'll notice the few sentences that brought me this idea. From Mind Seed, XPH p.119 (quoted mind seed text) Oh, I see where you got the idea, then. I would tend to read that as just emphasizing that the mind seeded personality is really separate from the person doing the mind seeding, right down to having its own soul. A soul that was formatted and over-written like an old floppy disk, but it's own nonetheless. Sure, the original soul is there, but it doesn't belong to the original person anymore. As far as I'm concerned, that clone is going to be quori Suzy, too. Anyway, if that's how the OP's DM rolls with it, fine. But I like keeping Mind Seed as awful as possible, and the irreparability of it is a good start.
Rekko 08-11-07, 01:26 AM	Nuclear_Buddha, maybe in your game your PCs could only use my plot by spending a lot of action points. Anyway, to each its game. I don't care to bend a few rules for the fun of all. Rekko
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 08-11-07, 10:47 AM	Ok, we've had our next session. Hammer and Qui'elle managed to find a kalashtar psion capable of manifesting mind seed (to buy us some time and make things easier). We invite him over with a proposition. Before it, Hammer shares a friendly drink with Qui'elle (a habit he picked up on), and requests that Qui'elle suggest at the opening a toast to a productive meeting - since he's more of a people person than Hammer is. So when the kalashtar psion (Seltash) arrives, I follow Hammer's plan. Seltash accepts. We all drink. Then it's down to business. Seltash refuses to mind seed Suzy - it's a risky venture, with personal cost to him (XP). There seem to be no real benefits either. Hammer responds, "You make a good case. But you failed to consider one thing. I love her. I fear this discussion is about to get rather . . . heated." At that, Seltash doubles over in pain, and Qui'elle feels a momentary heartburn. "You will do what you can to save her," Hammer says. At this point, Qui'elle is just plain slack-jawed and confused. Seltash soon gives in, saying he'll help, just stop the pain. Hammer responds, "Chill out." Seltash relaxes. Now to explain what Hammer pulled. Hammer is an artificer, a specialist in traps and subterfuge. The first drink he shared with me contained a small amount of potion or something designed to trigger dispel magic when he says "I love her." The drinks he gave all of us contained a small amount of finely powdered metal, enchanted to cast heat metal when Hammer says "I love her" and chill metal when he says "chill out." So Hammer ensured that Seltash couldn't swap drinks to avoid the trap, and tricked me into drinking the antidote (dispel magic negated the powder). So it only activated in Seltash. DM ruled that having heat metal activate in your stomach is too much for even a high level character (with a poor fortitude save) to handle. So Seltash gave in. As for succeeding in tricking Seltash: I proposed the drink, and I didn't know about the trick. DM allowed Hammer to bluff more easily by letting me say all the stuff in ignorance. Suzy is now mind seeded. Or so Seltash says. Hopefully he didn't aim for revenge for that trick. Either way, Hammer probably made a powerful enemy for his daughter. And since the Seltash-Suzy is from several levels ago, she shouldn't be mad at Hammer. I foresee further awesomeness coming up. And a possible shift toward LE for Hammer if he continues to do so much for Suzy.
Lancer2010 08-12-07, 06:45 PM	:eek: This entire thread just manages to sum up all of what Eberron is to me. I especially love what Hammer just did.
Euangelion 08-12-07, 09:34 PM	I hate to keep bringing this up, but until I got into this thread I hadn't really thought things out regarding quori and mind seed. I think that we might be looking at the issue of what happens when a humanoid gains the mind/personality of an outsider. Can you imagine what it must be like for the mind of an immortal being to be stuck in the pathetic, fragile, body of a humanoid, with no hope of release? Sure, it might be loyal at first, but it would seem to me that it would soon begin to resent its lot, and perhaps even descend into madness. At best, mind seeding should be a rare occurence, with the mind seeded one closely monitored. A close appromimation might be an employee of a company being permanently assigned to a terrible office with reduced pay for the good of the company without being asked. Want to bet what happens to the morale of said employee? That's why to me it makes far more sense for a mind seed to be performed by an Inspired, so that the host of the mind seed is closer in type to that of the psion than between a quori and a humanoid. It's just got to be a very rare thing. That's all I'll say in this thread. Sorry if it's annoying.
ArcTan 08-13-07, 01:02 AM	True. I hadn't caught that. However, it should be possible (via Reality Revision, Wish or Miracle) to use such an effect twice to restore the lost child - once to create an entirely new body, and once to Ressurect the lost child's life. Otherwise only an Eldritch Machine or some other Deus Ex Machina can do it. That's some major voodoo to save a little girl though. Damn, Mind Seed is nasty. Technically if you rule that the girl is a separate entity from the post-mind seed quori copy, then the girl dies when the mind seed completes, and her soul must be in Dolurrh -- and is capable of being rescued like any other soul in Dolurrh.
Rekko 08-13-07, 08:26 AM	Still, the problem is to get her old body back, or make a copy of it. And if you could use wish to make a copy of her body, why not simply use wish to get back in your original body?
Belabras 08-13-07, 12:07 PM	Still, the problem is to get her old body back, or make a copy of it. And if you could use wish to make a copy of her body, why not simply use wish to get back in your original body? Because not even Wish is powerful enough to counteract a germinated Mind Seed. Says so in the description of the power.
Nuclear_Buddha 08-13-07, 12:50 PM	Suzy is now mind seeded. Or so Seltash says. Hopefully he didn't aim for revenge for that trick. Either way, Hammer probably made a powerful enemy for his daughter. And since the Seltash-Suzy is from several levels ago, she shouldn't be mad at Hammer. I foresee further awesomeness coming up. And a possible shift toward LE for Hammer if he continues to do so much for Suzy. So you guys had her counter-seeded by someone less threatening? To buy time? That... is hard core. I assume this is in preparation for some sort of attempt to restore her original personality? Is Seltash-Suzy cool with being destroyed in such a restoration, or has some sort of separate arrangement been made for that? I'm seconding what's been said here about this being just what Eberron is about.
ArcTan 08-13-07, 03:07 PM	Still, the problem is to get her old body back, or make a copy of it. And if you could use wish to make a copy of her body, why not simply use wish to get back in your original body? You don't need a body to actually *rescue* someone from Dolurrh. If you physically use planar travel to go into Dolurrh and take one of the Dolurrh souls back out into Eberron, the transition from the mists to the real world will give them a new body (IIRC). You just face the challenge of, well, going to Dolurrh (this really isn't a viable tactic for parties that don't yet have scrying, plane shift and teleport to rely on, unless they get some kind of plot device like a convenient gateway to Dolurrh and a convenient artifact that marks her soul's location).
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 08-13-07, 03:52 PM	Oh yeah, Hammer rocks. To quote him on the matter, "Mess with the Hammer, and you'll probably get nailed."
Rekko 08-13-07, 10:21 PM	I was thinking, what class is your kalashtar character? And, are they any other PCs aside from Hammer and yours? Has your DM given any thought on how to bring back Suzy to her normal self? Rekko
Lancer2010 08-13-07, 11:58 PM	Oh yeah, Hammer rocks. To quote him on the matter, "Mess with the Hammer, and you'll probably get nailed." :rofl: Absolute genius!
Omnirahk, half-Rahkshi 08-14-07, 10:02 PM	Qui'elle is a kalashtar soulknife. Using a variant I found on the boards ("Not [or was it Yet] another soulknife fix"), I trade in a few things for Tome of Battle maneuvers. Qui'elle focuses on Diamond Mind and Shadow Hand maneuvers, with a couple of Desert Wind. He also took the hidden talent substitution, to gain entangling ectoplasm. he's a lot of tricks up his sleeve. Hammer and Qui'elle are the only full time PCs. A shifter ranger (swiftwing, uses a repeating crossbow, follows a homebrew "shifter" combat style - ranger bonus feats are shifter racial feats) makes it sometimes. When the player can leave Phantasy Star Universe. There's also a human druid (warden of the wood and greensinger initiate), but her player isn't too interested in D&D. Lancer2010, I'm glad you like Hammer's sense of humor. He pulls that sort of stuff a lot. A lot of groans, but some good lines too.