NPC alingments in the books [Archive] - Wizards Community

NPC alingments in the books [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
AkumaDaimyo
06-09-07, 10:58 PM Does it seem that some of the NPCs don't really fit their alingments at all? Queen Aurala for example doesn't sound very NG to me. Sounds kinda evil or at least neutral to me. Could someone explain how she is NG?
DragoonDarkfire
06-09-07, 11:06 PM Just because she wants to be queen of Galifare doesn't mean she doesn't have a noble reason behind it. She also doesn't strike me as one to "Kill anyone who gets in my way" kinda gal.

Whereas Kaius on the other hand is willing to do ANYTHING for peace... ANYTHING.
AkumaDaimyo
06-09-07, 11:08 PM Yeah it does, Neutal Good alingment. A Neutral Good wouldn't be all selfish like that. There must be some noble ideals behind it. If not I'd just change her alingment. I might have to ask Keith Baker on stuff like this. I'd love more info on why some of these people are good, like what are they doing for their own people.
DragoonDarkfire
06-09-07, 11:22 PM Yeah it does, Neutal Good alingment. A Neutral Good wouldn't be all selfish like that. There must be some noble ideals behind it. If not I'd just change her alingment. I might have to ask Keith Baker on stuff like this. I'd love more info on why some of these people are good, like what are they doing for their own people.

Who says she's doing it to be selfish?

Aurala isn't looking to restart the last war, she merely hopes to regain the kingdom of Galifare under her domain by use of subterfuge and spying. In fact I think she's preparing MORE for the inevitable next war by strengthening Aundairs resources and defenses then actually planning any conquering or murder.
Neutronium_Dragon
06-09-07, 11:34 PM This came up in another looong thread a while ago. Aurala isn't doing what she's doing just to be selfish. She's aiming to put herself on the throne of Galifar and is willing to use force (to at least some extent) to do it because, from her point of view, all of the other alternatives would be worse for not just her people but probably for most of Khorvaire. (And looking around at the state of affairs in and the leadership of most of the other nations, it's not hard to see why she might come to that conclusion.)

Is she entirely correct in that belief? Maybe, maybe not - but it's ultimately what's driving her to do what she does, and D&D doesn't automatically consider the use of force to be evil.
AkumaDaimyo
06-10-07, 02:53 AM The use of force when you kill innocents and become too ambitious DOES make it evil though. I say she's on a slippery slope to evil.
lonewolf
06-10-07, 03:25 AM Its a part of Eberron that good people can still do evil things.

For exmple it is clear to me that paladins of the Silver Flame who unknowingly killed innocents during the crusade against the Lycanthropes did mostly still had a good alignmetn and their paladin powers afterwards. They believe that sometimes evil must be done to serve the greater good.

And this situation here is similar. Queen Aurala is willing to do evil things(the use of force) to achieve a greater good(her rule over a unified Galifar). She firmly believes that for the people of Khorvaire a unification under her rule will be the best solution on the long run. As long as the nations are splintered, there is also the risk of another war.
AkumaDaimyo
06-10-07, 03:31 AM Not a good example as most Lycanthropes are evil. Paladins of the Silver Flame actually aren't allowed to do evil acts in the name of good. You still have the alignment rescriction. Just cause it's Eberron doesn't mean all of a sudden the rules get lack for Palys.

I don't belive queen Aurala deserves a NG alingment. She is so not NG. She only cares about what she wants and what can help her goals. She ignores anything else. That doesn't sound like a NG at all. Like she doesn't give a crap about the Cyre refugees because they are of no use to her. That's not terribly NG. As a PC she'd eventually get hit with a alingment change by most DMs I know of for her apathy and "what can you do for me" attitude. NG should help others without concern for what they get out of it. She doesnt do that. She seems more neutral than good.
lonewolf
06-10-07, 03:37 AM I just think that her focus is different. She doesnt think "What can you do for me?" but "What can you do for my goals that will in turn help the whole continent."

Yes she wants control of the whole continent, but not for her own but because she thinks about all the good she can do if she has that power.

But I agree that it is clearly a grey area, like most of Eberron is.
Shady314
06-10-07, 04:23 AM Not a good example as most Lycanthropes are evil. Paladins of the Silver Flame actually aren't allowed to do evil acts in the name of good. You still have the alignment rescriction. Just cause it's Eberron doesn't mean all of a sudden the rules get lack for Palys.
But do you punish them for unknowingly commiting evil? I'm sure some Paladin somewhere killed a good lycanthrope by accident during the purge and never even knew it. Should he suddenly find himself stripped of all his powers? That's ultimately a DM call.

I don't belive queen Aurala deserves a NG alingment. She is so not NG. She only cares about what she wants and what can help her goals.
Well first off she's a queen. Not Mother Theresa. Ambition does not automatically mean you are evil. She's not supposed to spend all her time
wandering the countryside doing good deeds. She's a queen and she has to make hard choices. And yes her time is precious. So unless you've got business relating directly to her don't bother her.

She ignores anything else.
She's said to be a capable monarch that rules her people well and is loved by her people. She is also HOLDING back more ruthless and ambitious members of the government than her from doing terrible things like trying to recapture territory lost during the war and killing thousands of innocents. Yep she's a heartless wench.

That doesn't sound like a NG at all. Like she doesn't give a crap about the Cyre refugees because they are of no use to her.
No one gives a crap about the Cyran refugees! Only Boranel extended any kindness towards them at all and he may end up paying for that. Aurala made the intelligent choice though not the compassionate one. At least Aundair didn't slaughter them as the Valenar did.

That's not terribly NG.
That's not VERY NG but it doesn't automatically change her alignment.
Since when was a Neutral Good person supposed to be on par with a paladin? Why are you holding a NG person to such a high standard? It is a NEUTRAL good. Neutral comes first. I see a NG ruler as being pragmatic first and doing their best to do good when they can not every second of the day.

As a PC she'd eventually get hit with a alingment change by most DMs I know of for her apathy
Wait just because a PC wasn't a bleeding heart for every sob story in the world you'd change their alignment?

and "what can you do for me" attitude.
1) Every ruler has to put their people and therefore themself first. She isn't saying what can the Cyran refugees do for me she is saying what can they do for Aundair? Nothing is the answer so she has chosen not to give them land in her territory. There are still Cyran refugees in Aundair! They just haven't been given their own land the way Breland has. Is Kaius evil (well he is but not because of this) because he hasn't done what Breland has done? Is Jaela? Are you holding Aurala to a different standard? Why?

2) I haven't gotten a selfish vibe from reading what little info we have on her. Her desire to be queen is never explained anywhere as a selfish desire for more power or wealth. She wants Galifar reunited. That'd actually be a good thing. And she is actually NOT willing to restart the war to do it though some of her advisors are! Is she evil because she hopes that it is reunited under her and not the other 3 potentials? I don't think so. She's been a good ruler for Aundair she just wants to rule the other nations as well and bring back the glory of their long lost empire.

NG should help others without concern for what they get out of it. She doesnt do that. She seems more neutral than good.
Thank goodness she is NEUTRAL good. This is boiling down to an alignment argument of what NG IS. If this is how you are going to define NG I'd have to agree with you she isn't. I don't agree with how your defining NG though.
An NG person has good tendencies she hasn't dedicated her life to good like a paladin.

Edit: You know I actually suspected as soon as I saw the topic title this would be an Aurala thread. Don't you have any other examples? You did say there were other's that don't fit their alignments let's discuss those for once.
Bluebrush
06-10-07, 05:58 AM I'd say that being NG indicates Aurala is seeking a way to take the throne of Galifar with as little pain as possible for all concerned.

As a counterpoint, King Kaius is LE and he wants peace. Even if he has to crush villages full of innocents and animate their dust to get it.
Aurala wouldn't belive the ends justify the means. She's less likely to go for a plan where innocents are killed, so she's sending her royal eyes to scour Khorvaire for information she can use to formulate a different plan.
Neutronium_Dragon
06-11-07, 01:06 AM A neutral good individual does generally help others - but they're not immune to practical reality. Perhaps Aurala wouldn't personally mind giving the Cyrans a place to call home, but as the monarch of Aundair, with all of the responsibilities that places on her, she doesn't necessarily have the luxury of indulging all of her personal whims, especially when that would go against the good of the nation. (And very possibly end up shifting popular support to one of the less pleasant leaders of her realm, which wouldn't be a "good" thing to allow!)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AkumaDaimyo 06-09-07, 10:58 PM	Does it seem that some of the NPCs don't really fit their alingments at all? Queen Aurala for example doesn't sound very NG to me. Sounds kinda evil or at least neutral to me. Could someone explain how she is NG?
DragoonDarkfire 06-09-07, 11:06 PM	Just because she wants to be queen of Galifare doesn't mean she doesn't have a noble reason behind it. She also doesn't strike me as one to "Kill anyone who gets in my way" kinda gal. Whereas Kaius on the other hand is willing to do ANYTHING for peace... ANYTHING.
AkumaDaimyo 06-09-07, 11:08 PM	Yeah it does, Neutal Good alingment. A Neutral Good wouldn't be all selfish like that. There must be some noble ideals behind it. If not I'd just change her alingment. I might have to ask Keith Baker on stuff like this. I'd love more info on why some of these people are good, like what are they doing for their own people.
DragoonDarkfire 06-09-07, 11:22 PM	Yeah it does, Neutal Good alingment. A Neutral Good wouldn't be all selfish like that. There must be some noble ideals behind it. If not I'd just change her alingment. I might have to ask Keith Baker on stuff like this. I'd love more info on why some of these people are good, like what are they doing for their own people. Who says she's doing it to be selfish? Aurala isn't looking to restart the last war, she merely hopes to regain the kingdom of Galifare under her domain by use of subterfuge and spying. In fact I think she's preparing MORE for the inevitable next war by strengthening Aundairs resources and defenses then actually planning any conquering or murder.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-09-07, 11:34 PM	This came up in another looong thread a while ago. Aurala isn't doing what she's doing just to be selfish. She's aiming to put herself on the throne of Galifar and is willing to use force (to at least some extent) to do it because, from her point of view, all of the other alternatives would be worse for not just her people but probably for most of Khorvaire. (And looking around at the state of affairs in and the leadership of most of the other nations, it's not hard to see why she might come to that conclusion.) Is she entirely correct in that belief? Maybe, maybe not - but it's ultimately what's driving her to do what she does, and D&D doesn't automatically consider the use of force to be evil.
AkumaDaimyo 06-10-07, 02:53 AM	The use of force when you kill innocents and become too ambitious DOES make it evil though. I say she's on a slippery slope to evil.
lonewolf 06-10-07, 03:25 AM	Its a part of Eberron that good people can still do evil things. For exmple it is clear to me that paladins of the Silver Flame who unknowingly killed innocents during the crusade against the Lycanthropes did mostly still had a good alignmetn and their paladin powers afterwards. They believe that sometimes evil must be done to serve the greater good. And this situation here is similar. Queen Aurala is willing to do evil things(the use of force) to achieve a greater good(her rule over a unified Galifar). She firmly believes that for the people of Khorvaire a unification under her rule will be the best solution on the long run. As long as the nations are splintered, there is also the risk of another war.
AkumaDaimyo 06-10-07, 03:31 AM	Not a good example as most Lycanthropes are evil. Paladins of the Silver Flame actually aren't allowed to do evil acts in the name of good. You still have the alignment rescriction. Just cause it's Eberron doesn't mean all of a sudden the rules get lack for Palys. I don't belive queen Aurala deserves a NG alingment. She is so not NG. She only cares about what she wants and what can help her goals. She ignores anything else. That doesn't sound like a NG at all. Like she doesn't give a crap about the Cyre refugees because they are of no use to her. That's not terribly NG. As a PC she'd eventually get hit with a alingment change by most DMs I know of for her apathy and "what can you do for me" attitude. NG should help others without concern for what they get out of it. She doesnt do that. She seems more neutral than good.
lonewolf 06-10-07, 03:37 AM	I just think that her focus is different. She doesnt think "What can you do for me?" but "What can you do for my goals that will in turn help the whole continent." Yes she wants control of the whole continent, but not for her own but because she thinks about all the good she can do if she has that power. But I agree that it is clearly a grey area, like most of Eberron is.
Shady314 06-10-07, 04:23 AM	Not a good example as most Lycanthropes are evil. Paladins of the Silver Flame actually aren't allowed to do evil acts in the name of good. You still have the alignment rescriction. Just cause it's Eberron doesn't mean all of a sudden the rules get lack for Palys. But do you punish them for unknowingly commiting evil? I'm sure some Paladin somewhere killed a good lycanthrope by accident during the purge and never even knew it. Should he suddenly find himself stripped of all his powers? That's ultimately a DM call. I don't belive queen Aurala deserves a NG alingment. She is so not NG. She only cares about what she wants and what can help her goals. Well first off she's a queen. Not Mother Theresa. Ambition does not automatically mean you are evil. She's not supposed to spend all her time wandering the countryside doing good deeds. She's a queen and she has to make hard choices. And yes her time is precious. So unless you've got business relating directly to her don't bother her. She ignores anything else. She's said to be a capable monarch that rules her people well and is loved by her people. She is also HOLDING back more ruthless and ambitious members of the government than her from doing terrible things like trying to recapture territory lost during the war and killing thousands of innocents. Yep she's a heartless wench. That doesn't sound like a NG at all. Like she doesn't give a crap about the Cyre refugees because they are of no use to her. No one gives a crap about the Cyran refugees! Only Boranel extended any kindness towards them at all and he may end up paying for that. Aurala made the intelligent choice though not the compassionate one. At least Aundair didn't slaughter them as the Valenar did. That's not terribly NG. That's not VERY NG but it doesn't automatically change her alignment. Since when was a Neutral Good person supposed to be on par with a paladin? Why are you holding a NG person to such a high standard? It is a NEUTRAL good. Neutral comes first. I see a NG ruler as being pragmatic first and doing their best to do good when they can not every second of the day. As a PC she'd eventually get hit with a alingment change by most DMs I know of for her apathy Wait just because a PC wasn't a bleeding heart for every sob story in the world you'd change their alignment? and "what can you do for me" attitude. 1) Every ruler has to put their people and therefore themself first. She isn't saying what can the Cyran refugees do for me she is saying what can they do for Aundair? Nothing is the answer so she has chosen not to give them land in her territory. There are still Cyran refugees in Aundair! They just haven't been given their own land the way Breland has. Is Kaius evil (well he is but not because of this) because he hasn't done what Breland has done? Is Jaela? Are you holding Aurala to a different standard? Why? 2) I haven't gotten a selfish vibe from reading what little info we have on her. Her desire to be queen is never explained anywhere as a selfish desire for more power or wealth. She wants Galifar reunited. That'd actually be a good thing. And she is actually NOT willing to restart the war to do it though some of her advisors are! Is she evil because she hopes that it is reunited under her and not the other 3 potentials? I don't think so. She's been a good ruler for Aundair she just wants to rule the other nations as well and bring back the glory of their long lost empire. NG should help others without concern for what they get out of it. She doesnt do that. She seems more neutral than good. Thank goodness she is NEUTRAL good. This is boiling down to an alignment argument of what NG IS. If this is how you are going to define NG I'd have to agree with you she isn't. I don't agree with how your defining NG though. An NG person has good tendencies she hasn't dedicated her life to good like a paladin. Edit: You know I actually suspected as soon as I saw the topic title this would be an Aurala thread. Don't you have any other examples? You did say there were other's that don't fit their alignments let's discuss those for once.
Bluebrush 06-10-07, 05:58 AM	I'd say that being NG indicates Aurala is seeking a way to take the throne of Galifar with as little pain as possible for all concerned. As a counterpoint, King Kaius is LE and he wants peace. Even if he has to crush villages full of innocents and animate their dust to get it. Aurala wouldn't belive the ends justify the means. She's less likely to go for a plan where innocents are killed, so she's sending her royal eyes to scour Khorvaire for information she can use to formulate a different plan.
Neutronium_Dragon 06-11-07, 01:06 AM	A neutral good individual does generally help others - but they're not immune to practical reality. Perhaps Aurala wouldn't personally mind giving the Cyrans a place to call home, but as the monarch of Aundair, with all of the responsibilities that places on her, she doesn't necessarily have the luxury of indulging all of her personal whims, especially when that would go against the good of the nation. (And very possibly end up shifting popular support to one of the less pleasant leaders of her realm, which wouldn't be a "good" thing to allow!)