Post/Author/DateTime	Post
igotsmeakabob!! 12-26-05, 01:51 PM	Hey, we're a little light on players (2-3 players, usually 2) and I was thinking of starting an Eberron Campaign, level 1 or 3. If we had one or two NPCs in the party should they be player or DM (myself) run? Also, if there are any alternatives for a new DM (only DMed one session) to circumvent the addition of NPCs and only run with 2 players, I'm open to that. remember,im a new DM so.. if you have any tips/advice I'd appreciate that too. I chose to run eberron cuz.. well its damn cool, and I've had some play experience in it. And I own most of the books.
LugWrench 12-26-05, 01:57 PM	The hardest thing to do, for a DM running NPCs in a game, is to remember that the NPCs know nothing of whats happening. Ive seen games where the DM is running a character, who acts as a giger counter. If the NPC goes first, well, theres good stuff up ahead. If the NPC lags behind, theres a TPK in the making. I would suggest that you have your players take on one or two of the NPCs, on a rotating basis. Start your game out at level one, as well. Theres less for people to keep track of, then. Fewer feats, fewer spells, generally less for your players and yourself to trip over in the game.
igotsmeakabob!! 12-26-05, 02:30 PM	Yeah I think I might start them at level 1... anything else? Anyone? Please?
Save-vs-DM 12-26-05, 02:54 PM	There is a way to run a game with only a few players. Gestalt Characters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/gestaltCharacters.htm) Now this is a bit more complicated in that game balance is still tricky, because desipite being much tougher than average characters and having all the resources you need, the characters are still a bit fragile. I would start them at level 1 and throw only about half the amount of enemies against your players at first, just to gauge how much they can handle. It's easier to start easy and gradually increase the challenge than start deadly and try to find a way not to kill players. This situation is exactly what Gestalt characters were designed for - games with few players that don't want to use NPCs. With three players you could do. Gestalt Fighter/Rogue Gestalt Cleric/Wizard Gestalt Artificer/Bard That party would more or less be able to handle anything that gets tossed it's way with ease with no NPCs. Just remember that they're limited to the same number of actions that a regular character is. Cheers, Save vs DM
igotsmeakabob!! 12-26-05, 03:03 PM	Oh wow... I had forgotten about Gestalt characters... how do PrCs work? Can players take 2 PrCs the same way they can standard classes?
Kalanth 12-26-05, 03:18 PM	To be honest, I have had little trouble running game after game with only one or two players in the party. Its a matter of balance when it comes to less or more players. You are not going to be sending two players into Xen'drik and attacking them like you would the standard party of four, would you? If you do then you are a nasty DM. :) Test the waters in the beginning, see how much they can handle, how well they adapt, and what tactics they use. Once you have a good idea of what they plan to do, you can go from there. Plus, those games with lesser numbers are a great chance to focus on the RP aspect of the game and tone down the combat.
Blackheart 12-26-05, 03:19 PM	I do believe the way Unearthed Arcana reads is that you may only advance in one prestige class at a time while continuing to advance in a base class as well. Gestalt is full of crunchy goodness, too...so if you and your players like innovative builds, it can add that much more fun.
Save-vs-DM 12-26-05, 04:06 PM	Yeah, Gestalt character's are my favored way to run games with fewer players. And yes, only one prestige class at a time, the other has to be a base class. Most gestalt builds, however, are like most prestige classes on crack anyway. Eldrich Knight: Gestalt fighter/wizard Arcane Trickster: Gestalt rogue/wizard Mystic Theurge: Gestalt cleric/wizard Cheers, Save vs DM
waper9 12-26-05, 04:13 PM	Another option is starting them a little higher as well as max hit points. If you really want to, adding say a cleric with a rebuked skeleton as fodder, or a druid with animal companion usually does the trick to bring any group up to par. Both of which provide healing, unlikely to lead or stay behind, and bring 2 players for the price of one. For a new DM, I would say just be flexible. When I first started I did a lot of railroad plots (basically no room for player choice) and that led to boredom on both sides. Nowadays, I just make a bunch of generic NPC, adventure hooks, etc, and only ever plan for maybe 1 or 2 sessions ahead of time. More than that, like I said, leaves very little choice on both sides. Finally, communicate... They maybe fine with starting whichever way, but at a later date losing their gestalt characters, or their companion, maybe more devastating than tweaking the encounter to the group of two.
Eksem 12-26-05, 05:17 PM	In the game im running, there are 2-3 players, usually 2. That has not been a problem so far, despite one of them being a fighter/paladin with really low cha and wis-scores, which makes for a pretty lousy paladin (but kinda of fun roleplaying-wise). When running adventures i've bought, I just reduce the number of enemies by a third or so, and since all adventures so far have played out almost exclusively in Sharn, problem with healing and resting are nonexistant. One thing I realised however is that I have to reduce the amount of xp i'm giving out. They gain levels much to fast otherwise.
igotsmeakabob!! 12-26-05, 06:07 PM	I think Gestalt characters will be my best bet. Going to give a good try... but does anyone have any generic tips for a first time DM? I can really use some.
Cutlass 12-26-05, 06:18 PM	Yet another possibility which has not been mentioned is to let each player run two (or more) player characters. I have been in games where that was done and it can work out ok.
Kalanth 12-26-05, 06:18 PM	Don't go overboard with NPC's, monsters, and other things that are rules heavy. If you are first timing it than there is a tendancy to not fully understand or comprehend the meaning of said rules. Not saying that you don't know how to play, but things go smoother if you introduce things that are unfamiliar or uncommon (trip, feint, bullrush, etc) in a slow trickle if you can. And, as mentioned, keep the monsters in a sliding scale for yourself as well, no need to dump in that Beholder on the first day when a raiding hoarde of skilled Hobgoblin Warriors will do just fine. :)
igotsmeakabob!! 12-26-05, 06:23 PM	Yet another possibility which has not been mentioned is to let each player run two (or more) player characters. I have been in games where that was done and it can work out ok. That was what I meant by controlling NPCs... guess it came out wrong. However yes, I thought about letting them make 2 characters... Should I make it up to them? What do you guys recommend? Gestalt or 2 players make 2 characters each?
Save-vs-DM 12-26-05, 06:32 PM	I would personally recommend using gestalt characters, as controlling twice as many characters for either you or the PCs might make things a bit too difficult. Cheers, Save vs DM
Cutlass 12-26-05, 06:41 PM	Depends on what you want to do. I don't have Unearthed Arcana so gestalt characters would not be an option for me, other people's mileage and libraries obviously vary :) If you are using gestalt characters, while the characters are more capable, I don't think the number of hit points they have increases that much over average. So, they are arguably somewhat fragile. Having each player run more than one character is more work for the player, but I don't think it would be that hard to do. If nothing else, a player isn't automatically taken out of the action and reduced to sitting around the table getting bored because one character got knocked unconsious. Besides, ideally through time you would arguably want to build your group to the point that some of the other people can take turns DMing. In which case having them get their feet wet by playing more than one character at a time might not be such a bad idea.
igotsmeakabob!! 12-26-05, 07:20 PM	Well actually we already have a DM in our group, I'm the player taking his turn as DM. Our DM usually runs GURPS (new edition came out so its taking him a while to run it) Warhammer Fantasy and stuff not-d20. Occasionally he'll run a 4-5 sessions of D&D but then get bored with it, heh. His best campaign was a 2 year, once a week, 2nd edition campaign. It was quite good, unfortunately that was his only really long campaign, the rest have been a max of 10 or so sessions, then he decides he wants to run something else. Wow I went into quite a long tangent on him... well anyway we used to have more players but 2 players left for other colleges, leaving us with 3 people 'cept when other players come back to visit every month or so.
Errant 12-26-05, 09:31 PM	I've occasionally run games where the players run multiple PCs and I've often run games where I have an NPC in the PCs' group. Most of the time I let the players run the NPC subject to a few guidelines and the odd veto when a player has the NPC do something I think is inconsistent with the NPC's sense of self-preservation. An NPC in the group lets you have an in-character voice. Important things to remember are: - Keep the NPC to a couple of consistent quick personality traits. Is he brave, cautious, reckless, timid, lazy, and/or greedy etc. - Don't let the NPC take the limelight, they should be followers not heroes. Its ok for the NPC to occasionally step up to the plate and be the centre of attention but the game is about the PCs, so NPC focus should be rare. Even if you decide the NPC is a talkative know-it-all, gloss over it. - Most importantly, remember the limits on NPC knowledge. Even if your NPC is a brilliant Loremaster, "I don't know" should be a common answer. The occasional wrong answer is good too. Another option might be to keep the NPCs one or two levels below the PCs average level. This will keep them useful but the PCs stay 'special'. This can also be useful if the players are running multiple characters. If you let the players run multiple PCs make sure you establish which one is their main PC, i.e. which character they mean when they say "I do X" off the cuff. You could also give the players the option to run multiple PCs but declare that XP will be divided by number of players, not by number of PCs. That way if one player doesn't want to run multiple characters but another does, they can both get their way without being overly penalised. The player with one PC puts all his XP into one character who advances (a bit) faster than the multiple PCs who share the XP given to another player. Every group is different, but these ideas have helped things run smoothly for my group when we've been down on player numbers.
Save-vs-DM 12-26-05, 11:15 PM	Generic Tips for the New Dungeon Master 1. Never force yourself to create more than you need. To me, this is the golden rule of being a good dungeon master. It's very easy to get bogged down in all the minutia of planning an adventure. If you're reasonablly sure that your players are not going to adventure into an area, don't waste time and effort detailing every aspect of that area. It's partially a time budging skill and partially a way to keep your sanity. Don't worry about providing stats for everyone your players will meet: only fully detail encounters you're sure that your characters will encounter. In addition, don't be afraid to wing things once in a while. It can be daunting, but if you take decent notes so you can remember later, you can really run a memorable session that forms on a tangent. 2. Listen to your players. This seems like a no-brainer, but it really does need to be repeated because it's so important. Players will come up with the most interesting ideas that you might not have even considered. Don't be afraid to change a plot or ecounter when your players suggest something that actually sounds cooler. Not only do you have a memorable adventure, your players feel really proud of themselves for "figuring out the plot." Player's often talk a lot at the table, and if you pay careful attention you can tell if they're digging what you're laying down or getting board. Just keep in tune with what your players are doing and saying and start making subtle changes. If your players get excited during an airship battle over Sharn, keep that in mind and maybe work in something like that the next time. To give an example, I was running an adventure in lower Sharn with a simple snatch and grab by a thief. Somehow my players got the impression that the thing that was stolen (it was just a rare jewel) was a secret message to one of the player's patrons. They were dead sure that it was the Cults of the Dragon Below (they're main enemy) who had done it, even though I had planned it to be a simple changeling. I changed the snatcher to a Dolgaunt and the jewel to a secret missive and they loved it. They were sure they'd found out my clever plan early. 3. Keep a "Plan B" file. I keep what I like to call my "Plan B" file at home. This is a rather large set of folders on my computer that have half a dozen NPCs, fight locations, plot devices, and other useful tools. Basically this file is used when my players really go off on a tangent and I need something to run while I think up something to fuel the tangent. Generally I keep a rough dozen encounters around the level of the party that I can use as "thinking time" and a chance to buy some time. Anything from a random thug encounter to a freak lightning storm is in this file. Once I use one I file it under my used category and make up a new one to take it's place, so I always have extra ideas to use. This is mostly to buy me some piece of mind and breathing room when players really don't take my plot hooks or really follow a red herring a bit too zealously. It's probably my most useful tool I own in my DM's toolbox. 4. Beg, steal, and borrow. A clever DM will grab plot ideas from nearly anywhere. I tend to keep a small notebook on me at times so when inspiration strikes I can jot down an idea. If I see a movie that might be useful for an adventure later, I jot down a few notes and the name of the movie for later reference. Even old standards work well with a good 90 degree twist. I've probably ran the old "kidnapped princess" plot half a dozen times, but by changing one aspect each time it stays fresh. Maybe the first time it's straightforward, but the second time the princess was killed by the father who wants the PCs to take the blame. Maybe the third time the Princess was baleful polymorphed into a toad and is now the "familiar" of the court wizard (that one was FUN!). Keep communication lines open. Talk to your players about how things are going at the end of the first few sesssions and then once in a while after that. You don't have to ask "how am I doing?" but a simple "what was fun?" will really help things along at the beginning. This also extends to the message boards and other DMs. You're going to do really well because you've been open about your skills and have reached out for help. These days, with message boards and chat rooms, it's so easy to get help instantly with games. Keep asking questions and don't be afraid to make mistakes - I'm sure every single DM on these boards can name half a dozen rather amusing and stupid mistakes we've made. Hope this helps and great and good luck with your game! Cheers, Save vs DM
igotsmeakabob!! 12-26-05, 11:58 PM	Lots of helpful stuff there thanks alot Save-vs-DM! Sometimes I notice in our games other players get a bit off-tangent on discussion, to full fledged discussions on completely non-game related topics.. any tips on how to get them back to the game or should I just wait it out?
Save-vs-DM 12-27-05, 12:51 AM	Well, I'm not the best at squelching tangents at the table, as I just sort of let them run. I try and keep people back on track with polite requests, which generally works. Cheers, Save vs DM
ChronosCrow 12-27-05, 03:05 AM	Generic Tips for the New Dungeon Master 3. Keep a "Plan B" file. I keep what I like to call my "Plan B" file at home. ... 4. Beg, steal, and borrow. #3 is just a solid idea. I've wanted to do this for a good year, but can't find myself the time. So, moving on the #4. I'm going to beg you: If you have some of those "Plan B" files that are flavored for Eberron (sharn would be nice) than can you somehow post those on your evildm website? I'd be eternally grateful.
ChronosCrow 12-27-05, 03:50 AM	Lots of helpful stuff there thanks alot Save-vs-DM! Sometimes I notice in our games other players get a bit off-tangent on discussion, to full fledged discussions on completely non-game related topics.. any tips on how to get them back to the game or should I just wait it out? I typically let a non-game discussions last about 5 mins if there are a majority that are involved. If there is only 2 people and I don't particularly care about it, I'll just stop them and say "get back to the game guys".
Save-vs-DM 12-27-05, 04:06 AM	#3 is just a solid idea. I've wanted to do this for a good year, but can't find myself the time. So, moving on the #4. I'm going to beg you: If you have some of those "Plan B" files that are flavored for Eberron (sharn would be nice) than can you somehow post those on your evildm website? I'd be eternally grateful. I could see waht I could do for this... Cheers, save vs DM
ChronosCrow 12-27-05, 04:14 AM	I could see waht I could do for this... Cheers, save vs DM Yay! Thank you!
igotsmeakabob!! 12-27-05, 04:26 AM	Yeah I could use that as well.
cmanos 12-27-05, 02:20 PM	I despise DM run NPC's. I am going so far as to play a cleric in our upcoming game (which I really really really do not want to do) instead of have an NPC cleric in the party. They are way too easy for the DM to get attached to as 'his' character. I've seen DM's use their out of character knowledge to assume the NPC would know it and act on it, and be shady enough to take treasure that they find, or other such things. I would highly advise against a DM run NPC. If you are short on players, perhaps you could play 2 characters or look into a gestalt game? I've never done a gestalt game so I don't know where the rules are or what they entail, but it may be the way to go.
poeticyde 12-28-05, 04:55 PM	Most of the games I run have a DM run NPC as part of the party, and though a number of my players originally expressed concern about it (when we first started playing together), regular pollings of them (in between games) have told me that they have gotten past the concern and genuinely like most of the NPC's I bring in (but hate those that I make purposefully revolting). The trick, as others have said, is to be *very* careful with your party NPC. Give them a very basic archetype, and have them stick with it, regardless of how it affects them. In my current campaign, I have run three DM NPC's that have travelled extensively with the party. In the first third of the campaign, he was a cowardly sorcerer, the son of a powerful nobleman who liked to hang out with the "dregs" (ie, the players' characters) to **** off his daddy. His MO was always the same...he'd go along with the characters, and help out in a pinch, but most of the time wanted to run or flee. The second was a corrupted Elven cleric, who secretly sold the party down the river. The players (who had no idea) adored him, as he was helpful, kind, and valuable to the party...hence his eventual betrayal of the party was incredibly powerful. The third (and current) is a Drow barbarian, the prince of a large tribe in Xen'drik. He's arrogant, headstrong, and stupidly bold, and always plunges into the thick of combat, even when its stupid to do so...but then, he's also always quick to volunteer to try that possibly still trapped door. Another similarity in most of my NPC's is that I try to give them all reasons *not* to seek wealth or treasure. The first character above got a monthly stipend from Daddy dearest, so when it came time to divide treasure, he let all his friends have it, as he didn't need it. Character two claimed a vow of Poverty, and only stepped forward to claim an important item as a "family heirloom" which the group had not identified (and which, of course, was desired by the big bads), and since he never asked for anything, they gave it to him willfully. The third is a Prince, and sees such "lowly" rewards as beneath his needs, and freely passes them on to the rest of the group. On the few times where the group has tried to pull the "let the rich NPC pay for it" trick, I come up with good, plausible reasons why they can't. "Daddy cut me off for not going to a family function!" "What do you mean my credit is no good here? I am a prince!" Etc...
Dragonlover 12-28-05, 08:11 PM	Get backgrounds from your players. That way, if you need an encounter in a pinch you can use something from a background. For example, one of my players is a kalashtar, so if I need to I can just drop in an Inspired to fight for the session. Thats the most basic, but the more complicated can can seriously convoluted. Next week my players are taking on the head of a crime gang that the changeling used to belong to but left after the crime boss killed her mother. And the player of the changeling has done all the stat-work for me, which was useful. Sorry, I kind of rambled there, but you get the idea. Dragonlover
Errant 12-28-05, 10:00 PM	I despise DM run NPC's. I am going so far as to play a cleric in our upcoming game (which I really really really do not want to do) instead of have an NPC cleric in the party. They are way too easy for the DM to get attached to as 'his' character. I've seen DM's use their out of character knowledge to assume the NPC would know it and act on it, and be shady enough to take treasure that they find, or other such things. If a DM slips into the underscored behaviour it's not surprising their player/s despise DM run NPCs, but it doesn't have to be that way, they can be both effective and welcomed. Get backgrounds from your players. That way, if you need an encounter in a pinch you can use something from a background. Even if your players aren't big on character backgrounds, get them to pick a homeland. Only two years after the end of a century of warfare on Khorvaire there are plenty of people around with a grudge against one nation or another. Have an NPC 'recognise' the PC's accent and play on their presumed national loyalties. A confrontation with an angry warrior still bearing a grudge from when the PC's nation wiped out his war buddies (fair fight or not) gives the players a roleplaying opportunity and highlights a prominent aspect of life in Eberron.
battlecat1 01-01-06, 03:33 AM	I like this idea of Gestalt PC's. My only fear is that, with a combo such as a Monk/Wizard, things would, for lack of a better term, become 'lost in the shuffle', especially with a player who can't help but do the whole metagaming thing. I want to start an Eberron game for my wife and cousin, and I think that this would solve a lot of my problems. Another unrelated question - one of my players always insists on playing something 'unique', which detracts from the overall feel I go for in my games, which is that these are everyman type of people who arise above circumstance. Do you guys know any way I could instill the idea of roleplaying a great PC, quirks and all, vice just being different for the sake of being different and throwing off the whole power balance of the group? And does anyone else think that the Scout class is just too d*mn powerful?
igotsmeakabob!! 01-01-06, 04:40 AM	with manyshot ya mean? explain how the scout class gets powerful.. im always interested in good low to mid level archers.
Kalanth 01-01-06, 06:40 AM	Always could make a Psiwarrior archer with Point Blank Shot and Psionic Shot. Quick couple of Concentration checks and you have +2d6 to any successful shot you make. Its always nice to have that extra damage lying around for when you need to make a shot really count.
battlecat1 01-01-06, 11:17 AM	Honestly, the whole Skirmish ability of the scout is what throws it out of whack. it was my fault for not really reading it in the first place, but she was doing reg. damage PLUS 2d6 a round. Insanity.