Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Xat 09-19-05, 08:38 AM	One of the things that I find quite appealing about Eberron is it promotes the idea of alignment not being as black and white as it has traditionally been portrayed in settings such as the Forgotton Realms. Many of the house leaders or country rules have evil alignments and can yet in reality spend most of their effort organising almost paladin-quality missions. I'm looking forward to introducing my gaming group to the world of Eberron and challenging some of their perceptions of alignment. We're due to start gaming in Eberron in a month or two and as such i'm putting together some of my plot plans now. What i'm hoping to garner here is suggestions for a collection of npc's that break the stereotypes of alignment. From the very first session I want to really press upon the players just how little alignment can matter at times. I plan to have them approached by several wealthy but wholly evil employers, who pay the players well to perform some very wholesome deeds. The outcome of these deeds while of course be in the best interests of the employer, but that should illustrate the point nicely. Does anyone else have a list of (or are willing to suggest) some alignment-contradicting npcs that the players can interact with? I'm sure there is a side-bar in the campaign book that lists a couple of examples of this, but the problem with that is that at least two players in my group have the campaign book. I'm finding it easier to come up with evil characters that perform good deeds than to come up with good characters that perform evil deeds. Any suggestions?
DarkWarriorKarg 09-19-05, 09:16 AM	That's bacause evil can do good for the wrong reasons. Eg: Kaius feeds the orphans. Not because it's the right thing to do, but because it creates people indebted to his benevolence. Good people do not do evil deeds without a) just cause b) regret c) living with the consequences d) fooling themselves into believing that what they are doing is "good". Think more of good people whose actions have tragic consequences. eg: Obi-Wan taking in Anakin. Anakin wanting to save his wife & child Yoda giving into anger while fighting the Emperor A knight (NOT a palladin!) who executes his duty, even if the results are wrong.
polt 09-19-05, 10:19 AM	I consider Kaius kind of a good guy, evne though he has an evil alignment. The way I see it, he wants peace. He wants his people to be safe and generally wants at least Karrnath, if not all of Khovaire, to be a nice place to live. The EVIL in him comes from what he's willing to do to gain this. And that's pretty much everything.
Endgame50 09-19-05, 12:24 PM	Of course, Aurala is willing to plunge the continent into war because she thinks her rule would be a "good" thing, and she's classified as good. Whereas the (ruthless) peacemaker is evil.
MysticTheurge 09-19-05, 12:33 PM	For a nice touch use clerics of a good religion who are really evil or vice versa, because then they detect the wrong way, since their cleric aura is what shows up. The well-meaning priest of Vol and the villainous cleric of the Silver Flame are always fun.
Wolfwood2 09-19-05, 12:33 PM	Of course, Aurala is willing to plunge the continent into war because she thinks her rule would be a "good" thing, and she's classified as good. Whereas the (ruthless) peacemaker is evil. IMO, the key to understanding Aurala is that she sees herself as King Galifer's spiritual heir. Galifer too waged a campaign of conquest, but the history in "The Five Nations" nevertheless paints him as a pretty good guy because he only waged war after diplomatic efforts to stop the constant warfare failed.
polt 09-19-05, 12:45 PM	I actually belive she should be neutral, if not evil. But this is not the place to discuss this :)
Endgame50 09-19-05, 12:57 PM	IMO, the key to understanding Aurala is that she sees herself as King Galifer's spiritual heir. Galifer too waged a campaign of conquest, but the history in "The Five Nations" nevertheless paints him as a pretty good guy because he only waged war after diplomatic efforts to stop the constant warfare failed. Yet she's not trying diplomatic efforts at all. She's lying to everyone while she builds her strength for a surprise attack (and waits for the opportunity)... self-delusion doesn't make one good. An evil priest of the Silver flame can still see himself as a force for good, and he might be, at that--but that doesn't make *him* good.
Charles Phipps 09-19-05, 12:57 PM	I actually belive she should be neutral, if not evil. But this is not the place to discuss this :) The difference is the fact that Aurala HASN'T started a war yet. She's waiting for the world to justify her view by having the war come to her. ;-)
Salla 09-19-05, 06:46 PM	Yet she's not trying diplomatic efforts at all. She's lying to everyone while she builds her strength for a surprise attack (and waits for the opportunity)... Dude, that's the very definition of international diplomacy. :D
The White Sorcerer 09-19-05, 07:11 PM	That's bacause evil can do good for the wrong reasons. Eg: Kaius feeds the orphans. Not because it's the right thing to do, but because it creates people indebted to his benevolence.. Actually, I see Kaius more as an "ends justify the means" guy than a "means justify the ends" guy. He loves his country and people and will do ANYTHING to protect them.
nfras 09-19-05, 09:10 PM	He loves his country and people and will do ANYTHING to protect them. I disagree. I see Kaius as a king who loves his country, and his rule of it. He (mostly) does the right thing by his people because he knows that they could rise up and kill him (or side with another country and overthrow him) if he doesn't. If he loved his people there is no way that he would have done a deal with Vol. He did that to stay in power. Allowing an army of undead to be built in your country does not protect the people, it protects the ruler, at least until they decide to take over.
Charles Phipps 09-19-05, 09:12 PM	I disagree. I see Kaius as a king who loves his country, and his rule of it. He (mostly) does the right thing by his people because he knows that they could rise up and kill him (or side with another country and overthrow him) if he doesn't. If he loved his people there is no way that he would have done a deal with Vol. He did that to stay in power. Allowing an army of undead to be built in your country does not protect the people, it protects the ruler, at least until they decide to take over. Kaius doesn't want rulership of his country necessarily. Why would he deal with Vol? So he probably could have her aid. Think of it in terms of the fact it was either have your country destroyed and enslaved to Thrane or Cyre or make it. Karrnath may be undead but at least it's free. Plus, he betrayed Vol.
MysticTheurge 09-19-05, 09:54 PM	Allowing an army of undead to be built in your country does not protect the people, it protects the ruler, at least until they decide to take over. Unless you're in the middle of a war and you desperately need something to protect your country and your people. Sure you can argue that Thrane wouldn't have killed off all the citizens of Karnnath should they have successfully invaded, but protecting your people isn't just about keeping them alive but protecting their way of life. Kaius went to extreme ends in order to keep the Karnnathi Karnnathi and not Thranish or Cyran, but I like to think it wasn't solely motivated by a desire to stay on the throne, but also by a sense of patriotism and a desire to protect the lives and livelihoods of his people. Now becoming a vampire so he could stay on the throne... that's pretty evil.
Decree Of Boredom 09-19-05, 10:02 PM	I wouldn't say becoming a vampire to stay on the throne is inherently evil. He might simply wish to ensure nothing bd happens to Karrnath, rather than caring about his own personal power. Sort of the relationship Vetinari has with Ankh-Morpork, if you read Pratchett, except that he's not a vampire.
nfras 09-19-05, 10:09 PM	Kaius doesn't want rulership of his country necessarily. Why would he deal with Vol? Oh yes he does. He replaced his own grandson to fuel his own "burning desire to rebuild his shattered kingdom" (ECS pg 178). The question is, did he send his other grandchildren away to ensure peace, or to ensure that none of them found out who he really was? So he probably could have her aid. Think of it in terms of the fact it was either have your country destroyed and enslaved to Thrane or Cyre or make it. Had Cyre invaded Karnnath, he would have been deposed, many Karrnathi nobles would have had their lands and titles removed, but for most of the people, life would have gone on pretty much as before. A 'bad' outcome for Kaius, but not an 'evil' act. Kauis was watching out for his own hide, no-one elses when he did the deal with Vol. And Kaius has pretty much enslaved the entire population anyway with martial Law and the Code of Kaius. A beneficial outcome for Kaius, but an 'evil' act. Karrnath may be undead but at least it's free. Plus, he betrayed Vol. It isn't free, it's under martial law and is a wartime economy. I view it as a similar situation to Stalin. If you look at his achievements from a purely economic stance then he was possibly the best ruler the Russias ever had, He turned a mostly peasant economy into an industrial powerhouse in a matter of decades. That's impressive, that's a "good" outcome. However, the manner in which he did it caused the deaths of thousands upon thousands of people. That's an "evil" ruler. Kaius is very like Stalin in this regard.
nfras 09-19-05, 10:17 PM	I wouldn't say becoming a vampire to stay on the throne is inherently evil. He might simply wish to ensure nothing bd happens to Karrnath, rather than caring about his own personal power. Sort of the relationship Vetinari has with Ankh-Morpork, if you read Pratchett, except that he's not a vampire. Kaius didn't become a vampire by choice. But, he did replace his own grandson to keep control of the country, that is evil, especially as I don't see the real Kaius III being kept in the lap of luxury with his every desire met, if he's even alive. Here is his choice in the War 1 - Thrane or Cyre takes over, nobility are deposed. People live a free existence albeit under another flag. 2 - Kaius keeps control, but an army of undead now garrisons the land. An evil lich holds some power over the people and can possibly control all of the undead in the country. The way I see it, Kaius sold out his country and people to keep power. Now he's trying to get himself out of a hole that he walked into.
ImmortalBlueMage 09-19-05, 10:22 PM	Kaius is one of those big ambiguous question marks in the ECS. Reading up on him, he'd sound Good, or at least Nuetral, what with his vendetta against Vol, outlawing the Emerald Claw, breaking the hold of the Blood on the Karrnathi government, etc. But then you look at his stat block and it comes up "LE". I think it's a matter of motivation. In my mind, Kaius is laboring against Vol less for love of country and more for personal revenge. This isn't to say he doesn't love his country, just that it's a lower priority.
MysticTheurge 09-19-05, 10:35 PM	Here is his choice in the War 1 - Thrane or Cyre takes over, nobility are deposed. People live a free existence albeit under another flag. 2 - Kaius keeps control, but an army of undead now garrisons the land. An evil lich holds some power over the people and can possibly control all of the undead in the country. I think your 1 oversimplifies a lot. A people with a proud military tradition like the Karnnathi aren't going to be happy with any kind of conqueror, no matter how "free" their new rulers consider the people. There's a lot of patriotic psychology involved, and Karnnath certainly sounds like the kind of country where the people are patriotic. (Honestly, most of the five nations sound that way, which is a good reason the general public never just said, "Hey wouldn't it be easier if we just killed the King for getting us into this huge all-consuming war and let [Other Ruler of your Choice] rule us instead. Cause then at least we wouldn't be at war.")
AntiSean 09-19-05, 11:01 PM	Kaius didn't become a vampire by choice. But, he did replace his own grandson to keep control of the country, that is evil, especially as I don't see the real Kaius III being kept in the lap of luxury with his every desire met, if he's even alive. IIRC, there was an oblique reference to Kaius III being locked away in Dreadhold - shades of The Man in the Iron Mask. The way I see it, Kaius sold out his country and people to keep power. Now he's trying to get himself out of a hole that he walked into. I see it as the reverse. He offered up himself in order to save his country. Whether he knew in advance what Vol had planned for him or not doesn't seem to important to me. What is important is that when his back was against the wall and all hope for his nation seemed lost, he made a deal with a devil made (dessicated) flesh in order to save it. The Order of the Emerald Claw and the Blood of Vol practically supplanted Kaius' rule. When Vol turned him, this man, through his indomitable will, resisted the power of Vol herself! That feat alone is legendary. In my eyes, he is a terribly tragic figure, losing his very humanity in order to save his people. Whatever limits he had placed on himself before are surely gone now. There is literally nothing he won't do in order to protect and defend his people from external and internal threats. That same inhuman monster is one of Khorvaire's best chances for peace. At least, for now... :) The other nations should tremble in fear when (when, not if) Kauis is able to root out the Emerald Claw and Blood of Vol for good, and bring his warlords back in line.
nfras 09-19-05, 11:30 PM	In my eyes, he is a terribly tragic figure, losing his very humanity in order to save his people. Whatever limits he had placed on himself before are surely gone now. There is literally nothing he won't do in order to protect and defend his people from external and internal threats. I completely agree that Kaius is a great tragic figure. He wants to do the best for his people, he believes that he is doing the best for his people, but ultimately he is destroying them and himself. Kaius wanted to stop an invasion of Karrnath by a foreign power. To stop it he allowed an arguably much greater power to not invade, but pervade his country. Effectively, there is an entire army of undead who may, ultimately, be under the control of Vol (after all, she gave him the secret of necromancy, she may have given them a "trojan"). Kaius wanted to revenge himself on Vol. So far all he has done is supplant his grandson and put the country under a fairly brutal form of martial law. He fights the Emerald Claw but the Blood of Vol is already throughout the country. The tragedy of Kaius isn't that he is a vampire, but that he tries so hard to do the right thing, but at the end of the day everything he does is evil. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that. Or at least, that's one way of looking at it.
Lina_Inverse 09-19-05, 11:39 PM	Kaius is most defiantly evil. First hes a vampire, theres a reaon there evil even in ebberon. DRINKING OTHER PEOPLES BLOOD. He has to harm innocent people every day just to survive, harming others to benefit self=evil evil evil. Additionally theres the whole turn your great granddaughter into a vampire, Kill your great grandson and in general being a selfish bastard. Kaius wants his people happy, under his rule. Thats the cavet thou, under HIS rule and NO ONE elses. Hes greedy.
Mr. Wilson 09-20-05, 01:10 AM	I concur with the opinion that Kaius is evil, but for the right reasons, so to speak. He'll stop at nothing to ensure Karnath and the Karnathi people are not bowed to external forces. That includes raising an army of the dead, desposing of his legitimate heir, and inflicting martial law upon his people. Should he ever destroy Vol herself, the Karrns will be free to turn their attention to the other nations. One must not forget time means less to Kaius then to Aundair or any of the other human natiions. In this respect, Kaius is much more like the Chinese then say, the Americans, when it comes to taking the longview. Kaius will be much more willing to wait out the other nations while he patiently builds up his power. Hence his devotation to peace. Out of all the leaders of the world, I understand Kaius and his methodology the most, for it is the most realistic.
Xat 09-20-05, 05:25 AM	Some good words from y'all so far, few examples that I can actually use though. Bit of a Kaius hijack going on too :P Thought that i'd get back on track and get the ball rolling to see if it inspires anyone else to contribute to the original question :) 1. Middle ranking member of Dragonmarked house - Neutral Evil alignment - Is willing to sponsor adventuring parties to perform good deeds in order to give himself a good reputation and act as a front for nefarious acts performed behind closed doors. 2. Law Enforcement officer - Lawful Evil alignment - Petty and small minded individual with a grudge. Feels the world owes him something and his method of dealing with this is to perform his job with almost ruthless efficiency. Carefully balances zeal with professionalism and never oversteps the mark. Greedily covets the power that his job gives him and enjoys lauding it over those below him and arrested by him. 3. Borderline Lunatic wizard - Chaotic Evil alignment - Believes he is superior to all others and those around him are pawns for him to play with. Views life as a game and employs good-aligned heroes to twart schemes he himself has set in motion. Enjoys the chaos of it all but appears to be a beneficiary until the true extent of his schemes are uncovered. 4. Bandit - Chaotic Good alignment - Outlaw that robs from the rich and gives to the poor :P Okay, i'm obviously starting to struggle for examples now. Plus i'm not convinced that examples 1 and 3 comply to my own request, as they only "appear" to contradict their alignments, yet they clearly conform when you see what they are really up to. Anyone else care to chip in?
Bluebrush 09-20-05, 06:02 AM	Kaius is most defiantly evil. First hes a vampire, theres a reaon there evil even in ebberon. DRINKING OTHER PEOPLES BLOOD. He has to harm innocent people every day just to survive, harming others to benefit self=evil evil evil.Note that Kaius keeps a harem of Blood of Vol followers who willingly allow him to feed on them, and takes care not to cause too much harm to them. One might argue that while this is probably the "Goodest" way out of Kaius' blood supply problem, he opts for it as a way to avoid his secret being discovered. Either way, it shows he does not revel in his evil power or desire to kill without reason. I basically see the following as Kaius' goals: -Keep Karrnath standing, achieved by milatary supremacy, internal security and political manuvers. -Deal with his main enemy, the nefarious religious leaders of the Blood of Vol. (As opposed to the followers themselves, the innocent commoners who fear the oblivion of death.) -Keep the five nations at peace, achieved through by weakening his opponents and sowing dischord amoung them. -Deal with his other enemies, such as the Valenar raiders and the plotting nobles and scheming war hawks in his government. -Make Karrnath the greatest of the Five Nations, as any king would desire. -If possible, make the Karrns happy, but that can come tomorrow. As to his methods, Kaius will do what needs to be done, but beyond that will try to minimise suffering from his actions. He won't try to avoid evil if it'd get in the way. He wouldn't avoid killing a meddler by misdirecting him if there was a more than slim chance the meddler would manage to screw up his plans anyway. However I would imagine that if he has imprisoned the real Kaius III then he's probably arranged for a Stasis effect to be placed on him, so his life is not lost to time in a cell. Kaius doesn't want to be a bad guy, but he's not too interested in being good either. He's just the king, and has to do what he must for his nation.
Salla 09-20-05, 07:01 PM	Kaius is most defiantly evil. First hes a vampire, theres a reaon there evil even in ebberon. DRINKING OTHER PEOPLES BLOOD. He has to harm innocent people every day just to survive, harming others to benefit self=evil evil evil. Additionally theres the whole turn your great granddaughter into a vampire, Kill your great grandson and in general being a selfish bastard. Kaius wants his people happy, under his rule. Thats the cavet thou, under HIS rule and NO ONE elses. Hes greedy. Well ... yes, he drinks other people's blood, but they don't have to be innocents. I'm sure he has dungeons with criminals in them that would slake his thirst just as well (and that assumes that animal blood doesn't work, and I don't see why it wouldn't). There's also the question of whether harming others solely for the sake of survival (rather than enjoying it) is evil or neutral. I agree with the rest of the paragraph, though. :)
The White Sorcerer 09-21-05, 01:45 AM	Kill your great grandson. Did he? How can you say for sure?
Xat 09-22-05, 12:00 PM	Did he? How can you say for sure? Hrm... :( 26 replies about the ethics of Kaius and not a single helpful example in reply to the original post. Think i'm heading back over to www.enworld.org :rolleyes:
Bluebrush 09-22-05, 01:25 PM	26 replies about the ethics of Kaius and not a single helpful example in reply to the original post.Welcome to the internet. Just to give you some ideas, one of the simplest ways to play with this is to remember that not all evil types get along. If you're looking for a evil patron group, maybe the Aurum might be a good start. An Aurum member, (LE Dwarf merchant style guy) hires the party to slay a CE group of bandits (Say, the Jungle Boys in Breland's King's Forest) which is of course a good goal which ultimately serves the merchant. Later in the game, the PCs find that the merchan used the profits from his previously banditised trade caravans to fund the construction of an evil wizard's mind-controlling eldritch machine. Also, perhaps the Jungle boys are more of a challenge than the party first assumed. Maybe the week they expected to spend hunting them stretches into two weeks. Assuming the party to be dead, the merchant hires a band of murderous thugs to do the job instead. Said thugs don't plan on sharing the reward, making the party targets of their blades too. Alternatively you could subvert the old "Destroy the bandits" mission. Maybe a morally flexible party could be hired to build up a bandit gang in Droaam to hinder the schemes of the three sisters. Another idea, maybe the infant daughter of some clear villain (Crime boss, brutal warlord) has been kidnapped, and he hires the party since he doesn't want to get the legitimate authorities involves. The party battles to save an innocent life from an evil enemy in the name of an eviller patron.
Siran Dunmorgan 09-22-05, 01:30 PM	Hrm... :( 26 replies about the ethics of Kaius and not a single helpful example in reply to the original post. Think i'm heading back over to www.enworld.org :rolleyes: I've covered some of this ground in the Myth of Fuzzy Alignments thread (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=504624), but it's worth covering again here: Alignment, as published, is not generally a description of a character or creature's goals, only of how they'll tend to handle any given encounter. Evil characters—particularly, but not exclusively lawful evil—will frequently employ good acts in pursuit of their evils: think of the cannibal Tcho-Tcho people described in Call of Cthulhu, for example: they offer free meals to the homeless of major cities on a regular basis. Now, the reason they do this is so that they'll have ready access to a class of persons that few will miss when they disappear. In the City of Towers novel, there is an example of a cult leader of the Dragon Below who was quite the pillar of the Cyran refugee community in Sharn, making sure that everyone was well taken care of, and had access to employment, food, and shelter. Of course, he was also recruiting for the cult, but he was also doing right by those whom he did not transform into hideous aberrations. Good characters working to evil ends can readily include—from my own example in the thread linked above—good men who are adepts or clerics of evil gods: the classic example is of the priests of the Devourer who sacrifice innocents to appease the evil god. They don't like drowning babies as part of their rites, but... the god demands sacrifice. In the time between sacrifices—I postulated them occurring once in each season—the priests no doubt use their divine gifts to aid their people and do such good works as they can. Oh—and because they are priests of an evil god, they have an aura under detect evil. The peoples of their villages, however, know them to be good, honest, upright and generous men, and will defend them, no matter the party's insistence on their evil. If your players don't understand the distinction between evil alignment and evil aura—and noting that the detect spells detect auras, not actual alignments, this could lead to trouble. —Siran Dunmorgan
Wolfwood2 09-22-05, 06:37 PM	I'm finding it easier to come up with evil characters that perform good deeds than to come up with good characters that perform evil deeds. Any suggestions? Good characters can't intentionally go around performing evil deeds and remain good. It's not equitable, since evil characters can do good things for their evil ends, but there it is.
Charles Phipps 09-22-05, 06:54 PM	Some official content... Kaius is a ruthless and cunning man. Don't forget, he's lawful evil, not nuetral good - and for all that alignment is fuzzy in Eberron, the basic point is still there. He wants what is best for Karrnath. At the moment peace serves his purposes. But he's not a warm and fuzzy man, filled with sympathy for the people of other nations. The only reason he's able to hold the throne is because his warlords and people trust that this IS part of a greater plan - as clearly stated in the first paragraph on page 96 of T5N - and there's no particular reason to think that they're wrong. Until the nature of the Mourning is understood, no one dares continue with fullscale war; no one wants to be the next Mournland. Thus, Kaius is "fighting the peace" with all of the cunning he brings to the battlefield. If he can win his victory through diplomacy, so much the better. If not, he's building his strength, digging in his claws, and studying the weaknesses of his foes. Kaius is determined to rebuild the shattered kingdom. Peace or war are equally valid tools: at the moment, peace is the only one available. But like every respected ruler of Karrnath dating back to Karrn himself, Kaius is a ruthless, strong leader capable of any action in the service of his nation. He's concilatory when it serves his purposes: but "when it serves his purposes" is the key phrase there. From my point of view, this is one of those key differences between Kaius and Aurala. Yes, Aurala wants to start the war again, and this can easily be argued to be an evil act - which I have no problem with in Eberron. Kaius is evil, yet through his promotion of peace he's doing good. The point is that Aurala simply won't be as ruthless in her pursuit of war. She'll balk at actions that Kaius wouldn't bat an eye at - and this is one reason why, despite its arcane firepower, Aundair was less effective in the Last War (and frankly, why I have a hard time imagining Aundair ever conquering Karrnath - its people simply lack the national will of the Karrns). Evil can do good and good can do evil; but the core alignment will tell you something about their prefered mode of action and how things are likely to play out in the long term. Aurala can delude herself that the war itself isn't evil - but she'll have trouble justifying something like an outright massacre, which Kaius will simply acknowledge as a price one has to pay in wartime.
Ravenfeather 09-22-05, 07:07 PM	I am relatively new to Eberron, I only have borrowed some of the books to figure wether or not I really should start a campaign. Well, the point is, that some NPCs described seem to contradict their just too much. And when I say some NPCs I mean Queen Aurala of Aundair. From the very description of her I'd rather thing she was true evil than true good. Her major aim seems to become Queen of the Five Nations. That's alright so far. But doing this by raising another war, rather than simply by diplomatic means and playing court games is definately evil. That means she is planning to put thousends of people to death for nothing but the satisfaction of her personal ambition and that's the major purpose of her life. Also she did a lot of thinks that are not directly evil, but far away from good. Especially rejecting refugees. Again she could have acted otherwise and even gained advantage out of the situation. Now with Cyre gone she might have further weakened the Prince's position made Fairhaven the new center of culture and arts within the five nations, so it's not that she didn't have another choice. She could have tried to assimilate Cyre into Aundair. Of course the last paragraph wouldn't be an unusual act for a NG character, since it isn't actually evil. But I miss what is actually good about her. I cannot see anything while there is this truely evil war thing. So, what makes her good? Where is she good? This is still D&D, and folks have their alignments. If one picks just random alignments for characters that leads to a point where a lot of game functions do not work correctly anymore.
Charles Phipps 09-22-05, 07:13 PM	I think Queen Aurala's idea is something that needs to be emphasized that's largely ignored in the Five Nation's Book versus the Campaign Setting. Basically, that Queen Aurala considers herself a progressive. Aundair is a land that she tends to view as the highest aspirations of Freedom and Culture in the land. Aurala wishes to spread these ideals to the rest of the nations of Khovaire and to bring about a golden age for New Galifar. Thrane is a bigoted Theocracy, Karrnath is a totalitarian dystopia, and Breland...well no one can say anything against Breland. It's also possible that she turned away the refugees for very good reasons. Sadly, Aurala is depicted as never doing half the good that Boranal does.
Bluebrush 09-23-05, 08:01 PM	Okay, I don't know if Xat was serious about leaving, but having re-read his first post, a suggestion for a good guy who does evil. Calan, Codename: Saint Lawful Good Middle-Aged Gnome Expert 5/Diviner 5 Calan is a high ranking member of the Trust, Zilargo's secret police and intelligence agency, operating full time from a hidden office in Trolanport, the hub of Zilargo's culture of blackmail and intrigue. He began his career working as a minor civil servant for the ministry of trade and was recruited into The Trust, as he was ideally placed to monitor illegal smuggling. It was in this role that his superiours noted Calan's genius for plots and plans, and he quickly progressed to a more senior level, going from monitoring corruption to stamping it out. For a trust agent, Calan demonstrated what some may regard as soft heartedness. Where other agents would kill a man for a man for his crimes, Calan would seek to foil criminals, and set in motion events to bring about their rehabilitation. Where other agents would see national liabilities, he would see misguided souls. In 933YK, Calan suceeded in organising a scheme to recruit what he determined to be redeemable (or at least useful) individuals to be imprisoned and retrained to act as full-time agents. Never as brutally effective as other trust members, and always more expensive, Calan has managed to retain his role and even "retired" from normal work in 955 to become a full time servant of the people, withdrawing from normal society to run things behind the scenes. His superiors presumably see something they like in him, a man who embodies the Trust's core ideal, to serve the people, rather than to become their masters. Despite his deep desire to avoid killing his fellow Zil, Calan does what he must for his country. If a man must be eliminated for the greater good, Calan will look for another way until all possibilites are exhausted and then give the word with a heavy heart. Over the years, he has ordered assassinations, break-ins and sabotage. Up to his shoulders in blackmail and deciet, he has unearthed the darkest of secrets and made dozens dance on puppet strings in the line of duty. Now a hundred and fourty three, Calan's body is beginning to fail him, but his mind is at it's sharpest and his heart has not wavered. Plot hook: -Maybe it was the four children he orphaned last year, maybe it was the actions of one of his agents, an order he couldn't follow or a terrible secret. For whatever reason, Calan has fled his post, bound for places unknown. He knows far, far too much, and The Trust cannot allow him to fall into the wrong hands. Though far from ruthless, Calan is a cunning enemy and hard to pin down. The party is hired by an unknown patron to capture or eliminate a fleeing embezzler, belived to be heading towards the Eldeen Reaches. The party must contend with a multitude of other organisations, from The Royal Eyes to the Emerald Claw who also seem to be after this "Aged Banker". Will the party find out the truth behind Calan? And who was it who hired them?
The Fireballed Mage 09-23-05, 10:45 PM	I think Queen Aurala's idea is something that needs to be emphasized that's largely ignored in the Five Nation's Book versus the Campaign Setting. Basically, that Queen Aurala considers herself a progressive. Aundair is a land that she tends to view as the highest aspirations of Freedom and Culture in the land. Aurala wishes to spread these ideals to the rest of the nations of Khovaire and to bring about a golden age for New Galifar. Thrane is a bigoted Theocracy, Karrnath is a totalitarian dystopia, and Breland...well no one can say anything against Breland. It's also possible that she turned away the refugees for very good reasons. Sadly, Aurala is depicted as never doing half the good that Boranal does. Well, to be fair to the Queen, she's also got a lot fewer resources than Boranal does. Her nation was sundered by a civil war and despite its arcane firepower, kind of got itself kicked in the crotch by the Last War. Opening her borders to numerous people who had been her enemies just a few years prior would be a risk. Perhaps she realized that if a New Cyre was set up in Aundair, they would try to carve out their own nation (much like what's likely to happen in Breyland). I agree that her write up is kind of on the neutral side of neutral good, but as Hellcow said, it could simply be that there are somethings she'll balk at. Compare her to her brother Adal (either LN or NE depending on which source you take). He's actively researching magical Weapons of Mass Thwacking. If he ever does develop them, his sister is probably going to be the only brake on their use. A few, key strikes to convince others to end the Next War with as little blood-shed as possible is what Aurala wants. Not to pave Thrane into a blasted-field of glass like her brother might. And consider the line from T5N: "Her nation, her people, her family; Aurala uses these assets to lay the foundation to ultimately claim her heart's desire-- the throne of Galifar." That's "uses," not "is willing to sacrifice." She's ambitious yes, but ambition is neither good nor evil.
Mr. Wilson 09-24-05, 05:10 AM	And consider the line from T5N: "Her nation, her people, her family; Aurala uses these assets to lay the foundation to ultimately claim her heart's desire-- the throne of Galifar." That line lies at the heart as to why I can't see the good Queen as anything but TN. She uses people to get what she wants, not to make the world a better place but to rule over New Galifar.
Charles Phipps 09-24-05, 05:27 AM	That line lies at the heart as to why I can't see the good Queen as anything but TN. She uses people to get what she wants, not to make the world a better place but to rule over New Galifar. People's hearts desires rarely are what benefits the world most. Jesus' heart's desire was...well...not to die and it says as much in the Bible.
Xat 09-24-05, 05:56 AM	If you're looking for a evil patron group, maybe the Aurum might be a good start. An Aurum member, (LE Dwarf merchant style guy) hires the party to slay a CE group of bandits (Say, the Jungle Boys in Breland's King's Forest) which is of course a good goal which ultimately serves the merchant. Later in the game, the PCs find that the merchan used the profits from his previously banditised trade caravans to fund the construction of an evil wizard's mind-controlling eldritch machine. Also, perhaps the Jungle boys are more of a challenge than the party first assumed. Maybe the week they expected to spend hunting them stretches into two weeks. Assuming the party to be dead, the merchant hires a band of murderous thugs to do the job instead. Said thugs don't plan on sharing the reward, making the party targets of their blades too. Alternatively you could subvert the old "Destroy the bandits" mission. Maybe a morally flexible party could be hired to build up a bandit gang in Droaam to hinder the schemes of the three sisters. Another idea, maybe the infant daughter of some clear villain (Crime boss, brutal warlord) has been kidnapped, and he hires the party since he doesn't want to get the legitimate authorities involves. The party battles to save an innocent life from an evil enemy in the name of an eviller patron. Actually, the Aurum was exactly who I was thinking of using, I just hadnt decided how yet. Last time I ran a major campaign it began with the heroes being hired by a bad guy to retrive something. This time I want them to be working for a bad guy again but for different reasons or for it to come about differently. I definately like the 'infant daughter' angle, consider it yoinked. I've covered some of this ground in the Myth of Fuzzy Alignments thread Right-ho, i'll head on over and check, thanks for the tip. Good characters working to evil ends can readily include—from my own example in the thread linked above—good men who are adepts or clerics of evil gods: the classic example is of the priests of the Devourer who sacrifice innocents to appease the evil god. They don't like drowning babies as part of their rites, but... the god demands sacrifice. In the time between sacrifices—I postulated them occurring once in each season—the priests no doubt use their divine gifts to aid their people and do such good works as they can. Oh—and because they are priests of an evil god, they have an aura under detect evil. The peoples of their villages, however, know them to be good, honest, upright and generous men, and will defend them, no matter the party's insistence on their evil. If your players don't understand the distinction between evil alignment and evil aura—and noting that the detect spells detect auras, not actual alignments, this could lead to trouble. If my players dont understand the disitincion then i'm going to flippin well educate them :). Okay, I don't know if Xat was serious about leaving, but having re-read his first post, a suggestion for a good guy who does evil. Well up until now i've onlt been a casual member of these boards anyway. This is the only dedicated Eberron forum that i've found. I was half joking about leaving, thankfull the helpful response since then has convinced me to hang around a little longer ;) Calan, Codename: Saint Lawful Good Middle-Aged Gnome Expert 5/Diviner 5 Calan is a high ranking member of the Trust, Zilargo's secret police and intelligence agency, operating full time from a hidden office in Trolanport, the hub of Zilargo's culture of blackmail and intrigue. He began his career working as a minor civil servant for the ministry of trade and was recruited into The Trust, as he was ideally placed to monitor illegal smuggling. It was in this role that his superiours noted Calan's genius for plots and plans, and he quickly progressed to a more senior level, going from monitoring corruption to stamping it out. For a trust agent, Calan demonstrated what some may regard as soft heartedness. Where other agents would kill a man for a man for his crimes, Calan would seek to foil criminals, and set in motion events to bring about their rehabilitation. Where other agents would see national liabilities, he would see misguided souls. In 933YK, Calan suceeded in organising a scheme to recruit what he determined to be redeemable (or at least useful) individuals to be imprisoned and retrained to act as full-time agents. Never as brutally effective as other trust members, and always more expensive, Calan has managed to retain his role and even "retired" from normal work in 955 to become a full time servant of the people, withdrawing from normal society to run things behind the scenes. His superiors presumably see something they like in him, a man who embodies the Trust's core ideal, to serve the people, rather than to become their masters. Despite his deep desire to avoid killing his fellow Zil, Calan does what he must for his country. If a man must be eliminated for the greater good, Calan will look for another way until all possibilites are exhausted and then give the word with a heavy heart. Over the years, he has ordered assassinations, break-ins and sabotage. Up to his shoulders in blackmail and deciet, he has unearthed the darkest of secrets and made dozens dance on puppet strings in the line of duty. Now a hundred and fourty three, Calan's body is beginning to fail him, but his mind is at it's sharpest and his heart has not wavered. Plot hook: -Maybe it was the four children he orphaned last year, maybe it was the actions of one of his agents, an order he couldn't follow or a terrible secret. For whatever reason, Calan has fled his post, bound for places unknown. He knows far, far too much, and The Trust cannot allow him to fall into the wrong hands. Though far from ruthless, Calan is a cunning enemy and hard to pin down. The party is hired by an unknown patron to capture or eliminate a fleeing embezzler, belived to be heading towards the Eldeen Reaches. The party must contend with a multitude of other organisations, from The Royal Eyes to the Emerald Claw who also seem to be after this "Aged Banker". Will the party find out the truth behind Calan? And who was it who hired them? A superb suggestion! This gnome will definately feature into my campaign....he has a definite 'Spooks' feel to him, and myself and some other members of the group like that show. He's ideal to randomly drop into the campaign at any point too, he can just come along for the ride, to give the world a more life-like dynamic feel rather than being a central point of the plot. Real nice :) Two excellent examples Bluebrush, got any more? :D