Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LewisLlynn 10-07-04, 05:05 PM	:b: As an addition to October's Theme of the Month (Undead), I have started this thread as a discussion of all things undead. Speak your mind about any undead topic related to Eberron. To start us off, I'd like to begin by talking about King Kaius. I think the concept of an undead, LE king wanting to help his subjects and do other things normally associated with good rulers is way cool. But here's my question: what exactly makes him LE? What is it that counters his goodwill toward subjects that makes him evil? :confused:
ImmortalBlueMage 10-07-04, 05:20 PM	I wondered that very same thing. After reading his initial write-up, I had Kaius pegged as LN. I was surprised to see the LE in his actual stat block. I could advance a number of theories, but in the end I don't think we have enough personal info on him to reach any real conclusion. A few questions that need answers: -How will Kaius rule Karnath when/if he defeats Vol? -Is he acting out of compassion for his people or personal desire for revenge? -Being a Vampire, what does he do to satiate his craving for blood? Does he feed off of his subjects, and if so, how does he choose his victims? -What's the worst thing (morally) that he has done to keep his secret from the rest of the world? As long as we're on the subject, am I the only one who is curious how a CG Elf Princess lives with a LE Vampire King without any apparent friction within the relationship?
chalybeous 10-07-04, 05:27 PM	As long as we're on the subject, am I the only one who is curious how a CG Elf Princess lives with a LE Vampire King without any apparent friction within the relationship? I suspect the answer to this runs into "TMI".
Just another user 10-07-04, 05:31 PM	:b: As an addition to October's Theme of the Month (Undead), I have started this thread as a discussion of all things undead. Speak your mind about any undead topic related to Eberron. To start us off, I'd like to begin by talking about King Kaius. I think the concept of an undead, LE king wanting to help his subjects and do other things normally associated with good rulers is way cool. But here's my question: what exactly makes him LE? What is it that counters his goodwill toward subjects that makes him evil? :confused: He is ruthless. He'll do anything, anything for his country. If for the good of Karnath he had to sacrifice a thousand of his subjects, Or trasform another country in a second mournland, or killing his own grandson he'll do it without a thought.
MarkB 10-07-04, 05:48 PM	Since you raise the subject, I've been having a thought about undead and Eberron myself just now - specifically, undeath and Warforged. Logically, since a Warforged is a living being with an organic content, it should be possible for one to become undead. Certainly, I could see the possibility of someone casting Animate Dead on a destroyed Warforged and ending up with a mindless undead similar in scale to a skeleton or zombie. But what would be the nature of this beast - this Deathforged, to coin a term? Would they be capable of moving much as they did in life, their comsposite bodies still almost as dependable as they once were? Or would only the organic parts - their pseudo-flesh and darkwood - become animate, leaving them cumbersome beings trapped in a prison of metal and stone? And what of the more advanced forms of undeath? Warforged lack blood, so vampirism seems impossible, or at least very unlikely, and similarly their disease-immunity tends to rule out ghouls. But could some powerful necromancer imbue the body of a dead Warforged with new unlife and intelligence? Warforged served with the Karrnathi armies, and some may even have demonstrated exceptional loyalty. Did Karrnath's priests ever attempt to add a 'forged to the ranks of their undead armies?
Saurenda 10-07-04, 05:51 PM	I wondered that very same thing. After reading his initial write-up, I had Kaius pegged as LN. I was surprised to see the LE in his actual stat block. I could advance a number of theories, but in the end I don't think we have enough personal info on him to reach any real conclusion. A few questions that need answers: -How will Kaius rule Karnath when/if he defeats Vol? -Is he acting out of compassion for his people or personal desire for revenge? -Being a Vampire, what does he do to satiate his craving for blood? Does he feed off of his subjects, and if so, how does he choose his victims? -What's the worst thing (morally) that he has done to keep his secret from the rest of the world? As long as we're on the subject, am I the only one who is curious how a CG Elf Princess lives with a LE Vampire King without any apparent friction within the relationship? He cannot defeat Vol, she'll trigger his blood lust again. There is no way he can possibly challange her in the slightest. She had lived too long, and Kauis cannot even fathom her location. In the ECs King Kaus has a Harem of people who willingly allow him to feed from, they are allowed to speak to no one but the king, and the queen. They are guarded by a warforged named Beauty. That is how he chooses victums and sadates his blood cravings, as well through magical means like ioun stones which suppliment nourishment, and wands of inflict wounds. Kidnapped his grandson and take control of the Kingdom. His gradnson resides in impenitrible prison in LPs, right near Vol ironically. Ironically it's her Chaotic sides, besides women LOVE dangerous men. Espically when they are no good for them. Gimmie cookie =D
The White Sorcerer 10-07-04, 05:51 PM	-Being a Vampire, what does he do to satiate his craving for blood? Does he feed off of his subjects, and if so, how does he choose his victims? He's got a special "harem" composed of volunteers.
Just another user 10-07-04, 06:09 PM	MarkB: I don't know, Warforged are living, but they are costructs, too and I don't think is possible create an undead costruct.
Neofish 10-07-04, 06:53 PM	I wonder what is smells like on the front lines when your enemy is a walking corpes??? Does anyone use fear and sanity rules from UA and d20 Call of Cuthulu (sp?). I like to use supense and fear in my games and nothing is scarier than being surounded by lots and LOTS of zombies waiting to rip you limb from limb.
Gurv 10-07-04, 07:06 PM	To start us off, I'd like to begin by talking about King Kaius. I think the concept of an undead, LE king wanting to help his subjects and do other things normally associated with good rulers is way cool. But here's my question: what exactly makes him LE? What is it that counters his goodwill toward subjects that makes him evil? :confused: I would have to say sheer ruthlessness. He may want the best for his people, but he is willing to do anything to attain it. This is made quite obvious by his pact with Vol in the first place. He wants to win, to beat his foes, and to get revenge on those who have wronged him. By any means neccessary. As for his relationship with Queen Etrigani, I'd chalk it down to her chaotic nature. It says there was an intense courtship, so I get the feeling that there were strong emotions involved rather than careful forethought. The question is how does it work now? She must do something to off-set his harsh and rigid ways, perhaps countermanding some of the things he does. Plot hook anyone?
Gurv 10-07-04, 07:10 PM	I want to know how common undead are in Karrnath and what are the peoples thoughts about them? The reason I ask is because if I understand the Blood of Vol faith properly, there is no reason for Kaius to keep his vamprism secret. Does everyone think that undeath is a good option? If so, what do they do to try and bring it about? And if not, how secretive are the various undead mentioned?
Alexius D'Cannith 10-07-04, 07:11 PM	Necromancy in Karrnath Now its a matter of fact that karrnath has legions of the dead to protect its borders, does karrnath use the dead for other work Are there roadgangs of the dead to maintain the roads of karrnath? Could they be used in other menial degrading work? Would peasants object to undead taking over work that normally earned a living for the living? Are there parts of Karrnath that really have a problem with coexisting with the dead?
LewisLlynn 10-07-04, 08:15 PM	Logically, since a Warforged is a living being with an organic content, it should be possible for one to become undead. Certainly, I could see the possibility of someone casting Animate Dead on a destroyed Warforged and ending up with a mindless undead similar in scale to a skeleton or zombie. But what would be the nature of this beast - this Deathforged, to coin a term? Would they be capable of moving much as they did in life, their comsposite bodies still almost as dependable as they once were? Or would only the organic parts - their pseudo-flesh and darkwood - become animate, leaving them cumbersome beings trapped in a prison of metal and stone? And what of the more advanced forms of undeath? Warforged lack blood, so vampirism seems impossible, or at least very unlikely, and similarly their disease-immunity tends to rule out ghouls. But could some powerful necromancer imbue the body of a dead Warforged with new unlife and intelligence? Warforged served with the Karrnathi armies, and some may even have demonstrated exceptional loyalty. Did Karrnath's priests ever attempt to add a 'forged to the ranks of their undead armies? Even if, by the rules, it wouldn't work, I would allow it just because it's so :censored: COOL!!!! I can smell a new creature coming... the DEATHFORGED!!! With the appearance of a warforged with missing parts and a dead, empty stare, the deathforged still hold a scrap of sentience from their original life. They despise true warforged for being whole and truly alive, and their ultimate goal is to gain a true life. Some even go beyond and attempt to gain a flesh-and-blood body to live life within. It's very late now, so what I just wrote may not make a whole lot of sense.... ;)
Serpentine 10-07-04, 08:16 PM	I bet they do have roadgangs of the dead in Karrnath. Walking dead and prison labor. A large menial workforce would actually be good for most of the peasants: it would probably free some of them from menial work and move them into industry, crafts, and create a rising middle class. After a while, of course: the initial usage of the dead might displace some workers, like the cotton gin and power loom did in their areas, but I figure enough people (especially able-bodied men) died in the Last War that there wouldn't be too much displacement. If people with independent minds are needed for other tasks, then sure, bring on the dead. The sewers need cleaning. The only problem there is that the mindless undead need overseers—and the intelligent undead might consider it below them especially if they were high-class before they died. After a while, if the citizens get used to the walking dead, they might grow to consider such jobs beneath them. In my campaign, there's a checkbox for Karrnath citizens on their identification papers that takes the place of "If I'm in an accident, I donate my organs" — "I hereby donate my body to serve for the good of the people of Karrnath beyond my death" "I do not wish to serve my country after my death." Best country ever.
Serpentine 10-07-04, 08:34 PM	On Kaius III— The grandson of Kaius locked in Darkhold has a very "Man in the Iron Mask" feel to it. It'd be fun to have a group pull him out of the prison, only to find out that he's a real bastard too. The Royal Swords could also be seen as a country-wide law enforcement organization or a secret police. They do revel in their own power and often abuse it. Kaius III is interesting. Compared to King Boranel, he's got the better backstory by far. Also, I think that Queen Etrigani must consider Vol an enemy of Aerenal.
Gurv 10-07-04, 09:04 PM	I bet they do have roadgangs of the dead in Karrnath. Walking dead and prison labor. A large menial workforce would actually be good for most of the peasants: it would probably free some of them from menial work and move them into industry, crafts, and create a rising middle class. So the people of Karrnath see undead as a new lower class? How does that fit into the Blood of Vol cult?
Edymnion 10-07-04, 09:35 PM	Well, the blood of vol sees undeath as a way to become closer to divinity, because it grants immortality. I would think they would look down on mindless undead just as much as anybody else. Yeah, they're never going to break down, but they aren't real people either. The person is dead, their soul gone, this is just their empty shell shambling around.
stone_dog 10-07-04, 10:28 PM	Even the enhanced Karnnathi undead are still probably property and not a lower class. "Death plus hard labor" is probably an actual version of capital punishment in that grim land. I had more on these statement, but I seem to have lost in my work induced haze.
Sarlax 10-07-04, 10:36 PM	Well, the blood of vol sees undeath as a way to become closer to divinity, because it grants immortality. I would think they would look down on mindless undead just as much as anybody else. Yeah, they're never going to break down, but they aren't real people either. The person is dead, their soul gone, this is just their empty shell shambling around. Regarding the mindless, the Awaken Undead spell in Savage Species grants a low intelligence score to skeletons and zombies while their Wisdom and Charisma scores the same (10 and 1). The result is a reasonably intelligent being with no personality of its own. A perfect worker.
Sarlax 10-07-04, 10:46 PM	Logically, since a Warforged is a living being with an organic content, it should be possible for one to become undead. Certainly, I could see the possibility of someone casting Animate Dead on a destroyed Warforged and ending up with a mindless undead similar in scale to a skeleton or zombie. Animate Dead probably won't work since skeletons and zombies can only be made from creatures with skeletons. Vampires are impossible because they're only open to humanoids and monstrous humanoids. Same with Liches and Ghosts. When it comes to templated undead, you can probably bend these rules. For instance, mind flayer liches are allowed in Forgotten Realms despite illithids being nonhumanoid. Most undead were written prior to living constructs, so I think exceptions can be made. I'd rule out skeletons and zombies because of lack of a skeletal system. No vampires since there is no blood. I'd probably allow the lich, but I don't see a reason for a warforged to take the template. Ghost warforged would be excellent.
RadicalTaoist 10-08-04, 12:43 AM	A new construct subtype (literally the opposite of living construct, undead construct per'aps?) will need to be made for deathforged.
Taelok 10-08-04, 01:33 AM	Name(Last, First, MI): Age: Gender: Oath of Enlistment "I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Living of Karnnath against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the King of Karnnath and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. In case of death, I willfully surrender my body for further use as the King of Karnnath sees fit." Signature:_______________ Date:_________ The enlistee would be like, "Living? What the? Hey, what's this about "further use"? If this wasn't a draft, I'd sure as hell be walking out the door right now." As far as the people of Karnnath's knowledge of undead, I would think that the popular opinion of it is negative. That's why the army of undead are on the southern border, out of the way, out of the eye of the population centers. -Statement from Public Affairs Officer, Karnnath Ministry of Military Affairs: "The allegations presented to this office by the persons of the Talenta Plains are 100% false. The Karnnath Ministry of Military Affairs is not in the practice of reanimating the corpses of our fallen soldiers, who have so bravely given their lives in the service of this great nation. Furthermore, to address the concerns as to the missing corpses of the affore mentioned soldiers, we are currently conducting peacetime negotiations with the people of the Talenta Plains to recover these missing bodies."
Marshall Stone 10-08-04, 01:34 AM	I agree with RadicalTaoist, a new type of undead would be made for the Deathforged (Really Like that term!) But I also agree with Sarlax that a warforged could be made into a Deathforged - Ghost. (That could actually work exceptional well with the Steel Shadows adventure in Dungeon 115; Oh! New evil ideas abrewing :devil: ) What about a Deathforged - Wight? Now, in the ECS, Karrnathi Skeletons/Zombies were made from, "...elite Karrnathi soldiers slain in battle." As such I don't believe they would be put to use to do any kind of menial labor. However, as a result of having had an undead army, the general populace of Karrnath might be well acclimated to seeing and living with undead such that I could easily see Stone_Dog's idea of "Death plus hard labor" is probably an actual version of capital punishment in that grim land. as well as Serpentine's In my campaign, there's a checkbox for Karrnath citizens on their identification papers that takes the place of "If I'm in an accident, I donate my organs" — "I hereby donate my body to serve for the good of the people of Karrnath beyond my death" "I do not wish to serve my country after my death." happening.
Jacinth Greyfox 10-08-04, 03:10 AM	Changing the undead subject slightly, i like the idea of a scenario involving Revenants. For example: Sharn, the last summer of the war, she is a gallant captain in the Breland Lancers, he a glittering ornament of the social scene a scion of one of the great noble houses. After a tempestous romantic liasion she proposes to him and he accepts she returns to the front lines for a final tour of duty and dies in action shortly thereafter. Two years have passed the social butterfly has moved on married a nice girl from a nice family and settled down to a life of idle wealth, however strange things have started to happen to their houshold. In fact the gallant captain re-animated by desire to be with her love has risen from the grave and walked home from the war. The fact that her one true love has forgotten her in the blink of an eye has left the captain less than pleased. The players get involved in an investigation find the revenant and destroy it, or role-play through persuading the revenenat is time to move on and re-join her unit in the Grey Veil or re-unite the star-crossed lovers.
The White Sorcerer 10-08-04, 03:59 AM	Now, in the ECS, Karrnathi Skeletons/Zombies were made from, "...elite Karrnathi soldiers slain in battle." As such I don't believe they would be put to use to do any kind of menial labor. Well not the elite Karrnathi undead, but normal zombies and skellies could very well be used as workers.
Bubba333 10-08-04, 04:30 AM	In the bowels of Sharn there lies a permanent gateway to the lands of the dead. This "dead zone" infects the very area with necromantic energies, perverting what little life can thrive there, creating all manner of bizzare and horrific undead. Of course, the only sentient beings that know of it are the undead themselves and the bizzare cult they've created, "The Cult of the Bloodflower" (named after the near-sentient undead flowers that dominate the subterranean necropolis). And then there are the victims... The cult's leadership consists of wight cleric, "Ash Tongue", who while excavating deep under the Cogs for Morgrave University, disturbed the resting place of a creature know only as "The Box of Under" (the meaning fathomable only to itself). Under him is the triumverate of ghouls called, "The Twins and One" (their genders undiscernable, although one of them seems to have been a female) who are forever linked by foul magics, their bodies (their skin has been melded with them standing back-to-back in a triangular stance, their upper arms, hips, thighs and backs grafted together, as well as their backs or their heads) and minds linked in a mockery most foul, even for the dead. Under these beasts are a collection of disgusitng zombies, dire maggots and various other foul things of dead flesh and spirit. They seem to have but one purpose: hate all life and bring it to ruin and decay. To this end they have been slowly probing back to the surface and it is only a matter of time before the citizens of Sharn have a new fear of the dark...
Atlictoatl 10-08-04, 10:58 AM	Well not the elite Karrnathi undead, but normal zombies and skellies could very well be used as workers. This comment isn't to White Sorceror alone, but to those espousing this view. I prefer treating Karnnath as a proud, northern, militaristic nation that has had to make some tough choices during a very difficult extended time period. For a time, the Emerald Claw were the thug-like enforcers of the governmental regime, and have now become a terrorist faction within their own country. A fairly large percentage of the population worships blood as life, and is in awe of the powers of undeath. During the War, the nation made the decision to employ undead forces, most likely as a way to stem the decimation of their population and to mount fierce reinforcements. The existence of the Undead Legions is viewed by most as a necessary evil, but that doesn't mean the denizens of Karrnath are overjoyed being defended by the undead. Undead are still creepy. Putting undead into the common workforce as laborers would be extremely unsettling. When they comprised the army, they were off on the frontlines, and the populace didn't have to face them (and their government's choice to employ them) very much. It's a different story if you put them into work building roads and other construction projects. Perhaps there is a renegade fort commander who has put undead to work building roads and fortifications somewhere off in the boonies, but I have trouble seeing the idea of undead laborers flying as a mainstream pusuit. If I'm not mistaken, Hellcow has posted on this elsewhere. If you want underclass laborers, I'd go with criminal chain gangs. Karrnath isn't Ravenloft, with undead princes ruling with bony fists over their territories. There isn't a pallor of death and decay over everything in the nation. The nature of their King is something virtually unknown by the rest of the world, and would cause real unrest if discovered.
Gurv 10-08-04, 11:22 AM	This comment isn't to White Sorceror alone, but to those espousing this view. I prefer treating Karnnath as a proud, northern, militaristic nation that has had to make some tough choices during a very difficult extended time period. For a time, the Emerald Claw were the thug-like enforcers of the governmental regime, and have now become a terrorist faction within their own country. A fairly large percentage of the population worships blood as life, and is in awe of the powers of undeath. During the War, the nation made the decision to employ undead forces, most likely as a way to stem the decimation of their population and to mount fierce reinforcements. The existence of the Undead Legions is viewed by most as a necessary evil, but that doesn't mean the denizens of Karrnath are overjoyed being defended by the undead. Undead are still creepy. Putting undead into the common workforce as laborers would be extremely unsettling. When they comprised the army, they were off on the frontlines, and the populace didn't have to face them (and their government's choice to employ them) very much. It's a different story if you put them into work building roads and other construction projects. Karrnath isn't Ravenloft, with undead princes ruling with bony fists over their territories. There isn't a pallor of death and decay over everything in the nation. The nature of their King is something virtually unknown by the rest of the world, and would cause real unrest if discovered. I like this view point, but remember there is more than just the King. It doesn't mention it, but what about High Priest Malevanor? Does he keep his mummy status secret? That could be tricky with an aura of despair (no wonder the cult doesn't draw as many followers as it once did). Although I suppose anyone who complains dies of mummy rot within a few days.
debatedeus 10-08-04, 11:43 AM	-How will Kaius rule Karnath when/if he defeats Vol? -Is he acting out of compassion for his people or personal desire for revenge? -Being a Vampire, what does he do to satiate his craving for blood? Does he feed off of his subjects, and if so, how does he choose his victims? -What's the worst thing (morally) that he has done to keep his secret from the rest of the world? As long as we're on the subject, am I the only one who is curious how a CG Elf Princess lives with a LE Vampire King without any apparent friction within the relationship? -"One enemy down, countless enemies to go..." Status Quo, I don't think Kaius CAN defeat Vol (at least without DM intervention in the form of Player Character Involvement). I do not suspect any changes to the harsh, interventionist policies of Karrnath if/whem Vol is destroyed. -Although he definitely has a score to settle with Vol, he seems to geniunely want the best for his subjects, or at least so it seems... -Kaius keeps a select few cultists living in hiding that he feeds off of in small quantities. Keith called this group a Harem. That implies other things too. Kaius is a king, with lots o' money. He can get things like Blood if he wants. Also remeber that the Blood of Vol, while an evil religion, has good followers who believe that Blood is the Source of life and that death is an unfair abomination forced on mortals by uncaring/incompetent gods. At least to his followeres in his Harem, Kaius, as a vampire is something that the cultists would aspire to become. -I have no idea what's the worst thing he's done to hide his secret. How about offing or imprisoning his own grandson, the rea Kaius II,I and supplanting him for the Throne of Karnath?
Atlictoatl 10-08-04, 12:46 PM	I like this view point, but remember there is more than just the King. It doesn't mention it, but what about High Priest Malevanor? Does he keep his mummy status secret? That could be tricky with an aura of despair (no wonder the cult doesn't draw as many followers as it once did). Although I suppose anyone who complains dies of mummy rot within a few days. High Priest Malevanor? I must've skipped over this if it was in the ECSB. I tend to treat the cult of the Blood of Vol like the worshippers of the god Sarku (http://www.tekumel.com/worldframeset.html) in the Tekumel rpg. Worshipping the idea of everlasting life (unlife?) needn't be a disgusting thing (if folks are in some denial about the reality of it), as long as the creatures that fulfill that ideal aren't running amok in society. If highly placed intelligent undead contribute to society, all's well. Edit: That link, unfortunately, doesn't go directly to the source. You have to select the Gods of Tekumel rollover on the wheel, then choose the God Sarku (bottom on the list on the right).
LewisLlynn 10-08-04, 02:58 PM	Okay, everyone, how about a new topic? Here we go: What are people's ideas for the roles of undead on Xen'drik? Be as general or specific as you like.
fizzbang 10-08-04, 03:21 PM	To start us off, I'd like to begin by talking about King Kaius. I think the concept of an undead, LE king wanting to help his subjects and do other things normally associated with good rulers is way cool. But here's my question: what exactly makes him LE? What is it that counters his goodwill toward subjects that makes him evil? :confused: Undead are definitely a rich topic in Eberron! For Kaius being evil, I think it's important to realize how much they stress that he will do anything necessary to help his country. From my reading, I see him as the type that isn't above blackmail, torture, hostages, or murder in the pursuit of restoring his kingdom. His loyalty and dedication to his land and people are definitely commendable, and his attempts to counteract and overcome his weaknesses are a strong indicator of his drive to be unfettered of the curse, but I suspect that when it comes down to it, he won't let anything get in the way of his goal, no matter how nasty it is. The fact that it's a good goal just highlights Eberron's "evil can do good" theme and intrigue-filled grey morality. Also, in a strictly mechanical way, I think it's beneficial to the story for him to detect as evil, despite his good intentions.
Fourthmensch 10-08-04, 03:30 PM	I don't want to derail your discussion, but I noticed that several of you were discussing an undead warforged--the deathforged--on the previous page. I would invite y'all to check out the writeup that I did for an undead warforged: the Unforged. (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=4567470#post4567470)
fizzbang 10-08-04, 03:40 PM	And what of the more advanced forms of undeath? Warforged lack blood, so vampirism seems impossible, or at least very unlikely, and similarly their disease-immunity tends to rule out ghouls. But could some powerful necromancer imbue the body of a dead Warforged with new unlife and intelligence? Warforged served with the Karrnathi armies, and some may even have demonstrated exceptional loyalty. Did Karrnath's priests ever attempt to add a 'forged to the ranks of their undead armies? I don't have any solid answers for you, but I smell a homebrewed undead monster in the works! I definitely forsee a lot of immunities and AC, but rather slow. Is there an inverse of the "repair" spells, like the difference between "cure" and "inflict"? Would incorporeal undead warforged have I can certainly see such a thing being a hideous creature, to both humanoid and warforged alike. Perhaps the result of some horrible collaboration between Vol and the Lord of Blades?
Ph33r_the_Wheelchair 10-08-04, 04:27 PM	As someone who plays Magic: The Gathering, somehow the idea of a creepy undead warforged has me picturing a Phyrexian. I dunno. And on a side note, who's seen the art gallery for Libris Mortis? Holy crap, there's some cool stuff in there.
MarkB 10-08-04, 06:55 PM	I don't have any solid answers for you, but I smell a homebrewed undead monster in the works! I definitely forsee a lot of immunities and AC, but rather slow. Is there an inverse of the "repair" spells, like the difference between "cure" and "inflict"? Would incorporeal undead warforged have I can certainly see such a thing being a hideous creature, to both humanoid and warforged alike. Perhaps the result of some horrible collaboration between Vol and the Lord of Blades? What I thought would be appropriate in regards to healing Deathforged would be for Inflict spells to cure them at half effectiveness (reflecting Cure spells), but for Repair spells and skill checks to also only be half-effective, since their forms are too damaged and corroded to be fully repaired. I'm not sure whether to have Cure spells inflict half or full damage on them - as I recall, Inflict spells are still fully effective against Warforged. I'm glad I seem to have sparked off some good discussion on the subject, and I took a look at Fourthmensch's Unforged, which looks like a good implementation of the concept. One thing I might try and write up is an Animate Construct spell. It'd be a divine/arcane spell, available to Clerics, Wizards and Sorcerers one level higher than Animate Dead, and would have much the same effect except that it only animates dead creatures of the Living Construct subtype.
Alexius D'Cannith 10-09-04, 04:08 AM	i think in Xen'Drick there would be mostly giant and elf undead representing those killed in the cataclysmic fall of the ancient giant empireand found no rest due the to the violence of the action, Also perhaps a few of the old smart giants remain as Liches in dark temples of the arcane surrounded by the faded glory of an empire gone to dust plotting their plans for a world that has deared to forget them and a race that has crawled back into the mud,
WarlockDa 10-09-04, 12:28 PM	As far as undead in Karnath, my understanding was that they were only used for military purposes and it was concidered somewhat of an honor to serve your country even after death. Deathforged: I just don't see any form of construct being undead,...except maybe as a completely new type reflecting basically a reanimated broken/damaged object. The 'forged soul absolutely refuses to release it's body,..even after tremendous damage. Ghosts,..zombie,..vampires...no,..just doesn't make any real sense to me. Would you allow an intelligent sword to become undead after being broken in half? How about this instead, just create a new(old/lost perhaps) design for warforged that are crafted to appear as a horrible creature of the night? I view it just like any other construct....if you've enough spells and cash it can look like whatever you want. Perhaps Karnath's found a hidden forge and created several new warforged to appear this way as 'elite commanders'. Just my 3 cents :) Love the adventure hooks thus far thou!
Bubba333 10-09-04, 04:32 PM	Deathforged? Sounds groovy! I can totally see rusted and rotted warforged, covered with grime and stink, clinging to life by a thread. I've no idea how or why at the moment, but the visual's cool!
Joni-san 10-09-04, 09:53 PM	In this artickle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/news/20041005news) they mentioned a race called Necropolitans, undead dwellers of Necropolis'. Where would you place them? The Mournlands looks like a good place. Perhaps a manifest zone to Dollurh or Mabar?
Flame_Drake 10-09-04, 11:45 PM	As someone who plays Magic: The Gathering, somehow the idea of a creepy undead warforged has me picturing a Phyrexian. I dunno. And on a side note, who's seen the art gallery for Libris Mortis? Holy crap, there's some cool stuff in there. I knew I had seen the deathforged somewhere before. I think it's high time that we start yoinking stuff from MtG once again.
Somebloke 10-10-04, 02:34 AM	My take on Kaius's army: Karnarthi undead (that is, the armed forces type) do not possess free will. Their minds, while possessing reasoning and the ability to learn from errors, are entirely consumed with a rabid loyalty to the armed forces and crown...a mindreader scanning a Karnarthi zombie would find beyond logical surface thoughts an unending litany of military slogans..."Destroy The Enemy, Obey The State, Follow Orders Soldier, Do Or Die)... and so on. In the same way that a spectre, while intelligent, is nothing more personality-wise than the sum of a person's hate and madness, so the only remaining aspect of a Karnathi undead's personality left is their fanatical loyalty to the state (this would be an excellent reason as to why only the most fanatical soldiers were chosen). Just as a spectre, for all it's intelligence, has no choice but to be evil, a soldier zombie has no alternative but to follow orders and fight fearlessly and tirelessly for Karnarth, without complaint.
Taelok 10-10-04, 05:06 AM	In this artickle (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/news/20041005news) they mentioned a race called Necropolitans, undead dwellers of Necropolis'. Where would you place them? The Mournlands looks like a good place. Perhaps a manifest zone to Dollurh or Mabar? Sounds to me like the Udying Court. As you said, a manifest zone to Mabar, sounds cool. You could use the Necropolis setting from Ravenloft and use it as Vol's base of operations, shrouded in the deep woodlands of Karnnath. Another suggestion, the necropolitans is the Valenar version of the Undying Court. That's how I'd use them, as a civilization for Vol or the Khorvaire sect of elves...
Solarious 10-10-04, 01:41 PM	Actually, I would put Necropolis in Atur, the City of Night. While it does not have anything as silly as a perpetual shroud of darkness surrounding it, it is the most active during the night: durring the day, it almost appears like a ghost town. It is also the site of the great necromatic reamination which supplements Karnarth's armies, and where all the bodies those Royal Corpse Collectors end up ;) After nearly a century's worth of necromatic rituals and festering corpses, I'm sure that something like it would have popped up eventually.
davethebrave371 11-02-05, 09:38 PM	What I thought would be appropriate in regards to healing Deathforged would be for Inflict spells to cure them at half effectiveness (reflecting Cure spells), but for Repair spells and skill checks to also only be half-effective, since their forms are too damaged and corroded to be fully repaired. I'm not sure whether to have Cure spells inflict half or full damage on them - as I recall, Inflict spells are still fully effective against Warforged. I'm glad I seem to have sparked off some good discussion on the subject, and I took a look at Fourthmensch's Unforged, which looks like a good implementation of the concept. One thing I might try and write up is an Animate Construct spell. It'd be a divine/arcane spell, available to Clerics, Wizards and Sorcerers one level higher than Animate Dead, and would have much the same effect except that it only animates dead creatures of the Living Construct subtype. I was thinking...what if there was a template that kept it a construct, so ruleswise you aren't changing it's type, but changed it's subtype to "Unliving Construct" and did what you've suggested.
Isran_Imrador 11-03-05, 07:51 AM	I think "undead warforged" should be Animated object...Just make new sligthly different templates for all the existing undead templates... Like this http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=364265 Animated Constructs! (“undead warforged”) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote: Animated Constructs! (“undead warforged”) Inbue Object (3\4) see Animate Dead Improved Imbued Object (6) see C. Undead Greatest I.O (8) see C. G Undead Inbue Object (3\4) see Animate Dead Comp: V, S, M C. time: 1 Standard action As Animate Dead but this spell turns the long rusting hulk of different constructs to Imbued Objects! 2 new templates the Shambling Hulk and Rusting Hulk (basicly skeletons and zombies..) As the new above but even more new templates! Improved Imbued Object (6) see C. Undead Raving Hulk (Ghoul and Ghast) Protector (Mummy) Hulk (Mohrg) Greatest I.O (8) see C. G Undead Gray Hulks (Shadow) Rage Hulks (Wraith) Hulker (spectre) Consumer (Devourer) Not sure on the names for the templates…__________________
LuciferNietzsche 11-04-05, 03:58 AM	Karrnath's undead army is intended for combat only, and aside from patrols of mostly the southern borders, they're all in vast chambers lined up like statues in storage waiting for another war. Perhaps a few of the common undead (if there are any) might be used for menial labor, but the people would not be ok with this. The people see the use of their fallen after death as a necessary evil...not a good thing. They don't like it at all, but they know it's their best shot, and they take a small amount of pride knowing they can serve their nation even after death. But they still don't like it at all. Kaius feeds on his harem who used to be part of the blood of Vol, but their sense of national pride won over their religious fervor and they choose to allow Kaius to take nourishment from them without killing them. Kaius is incredibly ruthless and there's very VERY little he wouldn't do to benefit his nation and it's people, such as imprisoning his own grandson, but he'll hardly do ANYTHING. He'd never kill his current wife unless Vol or someone else invoked his bloodlust again. He'd never ever willingly kill her. Oh, and also, he himself has no real interest in ruling all of Khorvaire, as it's just not worth the trouble when he can focus more on keeping Karrnath strong and independent. Because Kaius does try to do what he thinks is good, whether he's evil or not, he sees in his elven wife the goodness he so terribly desires, and can never attain. And because elves are so long-lived, she can stay by his side through centuries, possibly even becoming deathless and truly spending eternity with him. She genuinely loves him for reasons only a woman could explain to us, and so that's one line he will never EVER knowingly and/or willingly cross...period.