Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Arcane Guyver 04-24-06, 06:50 PM	Figured I'd run this by you guys before I implement it in my game. The source of inspiration for these should be obvious. Limit Breaks Damage sustained by enemy attacks is tallied up. Once it becomes twice your maximum hit points, your 'Limit' is reached, and you can spend an action point to perform a special move. • Instant Critical: If your next (non-magical) attack roll hits, it is an automatic critical hit. This special attack overrides any damage reduction and affects even those normally immune to critical hits. If a character is using this ability while taking a full attack action, he gains an additional attack at his full base attack bonus. • Sudden Maximize: You may apply the Maximize Spell metamagic feat to a spell just as you are casting it. This doesn't increase the casting time or the spell's level. Psionic manifesters can apply the Maximize Power feat to a power without spending extra power points (he must still expend his psionic focus). The character need not have either of these feats to use this ability. This ability does not count against a character's use of the Sudden Maximize feat, if he has it. • Emulate Feat: A character may gain the benefit of a combat-related feat he doesn't have for the remainder of an encounter. The character must meet the prerequisites for the feat in question.
Korhal_IV 04-24-06, 07:30 PM	There's no real in-game justification for this mechanic. Are your PCs all masochists, is that why they enjoy pain? Watch out for severe imbalance. Your wizard has 2.5+Con mod as his average hit points, and a Fireball that wants Maximizing. Your barbarian has 6.5+Con mod and a greatsword. Who's going to be popping off a limit break every other fight? If the cleric's willing to give up a few Cure slots, the mage can even try to get himself hurt to trigger this - running into melee, deliberately ignoring the hobgoblin next to him in order to shoot one fifty feet away. Even better. Your barbarian plays normally, but buys a scythe for a few bucks. When he's taken his necessary amount of damage, he drops the greatsword as a free action, draws his scythe as a move-equiv, rages for free, and crits for quadruple damage on the spot. He ignores DR, too, so the weapon's quality doesn't affect anything. Heck, if I wanted to be annoying, I'd pick up Sudden Maximize from Complete Arcane, and make an elf wizard with a Con score of 6. I have 2 HP at first level, and an average of 1.25 per level after that. I take any hit, I drop, the cleric burns a Cure Light to raise me, I drop a Maximized Magic Missile, Scorching Ray, Fireball, whatever. Sure, I might die quickly, but it should be a good gimmick for a few levels. :P
AvonRekaes 04-24-06, 07:52 PM	There's no real in-game justification for this mechanic. Are your PCs all masochists, is that why they enjoy pain? Perhaps you don't know where the idea is coming from. It's not that pain excites them, it's that after taking so much damage you're able to tap into the reserves of power born from desperation and anger within you for one massive assault. See Final Fantasy VII and Omnislash for further details. However, your mechanical concerns are valid. It's all too easy for PCs to abuse the spirit of this house rule. This can be fixed somewhat by stating that only unintentional damage counts towards your "limit gauge". Similar to the way in FF 7 damage from yourself or allies doesn't fill the gauge, this houserule wouldn't let you get your limit faster if you purposely let yourself be hit. However, this still leads to imbalance between classes, so acurately pointed out by the poster above. My advice would be to drop the damage counting entirely. Perhaps make limits cost all of your current action points, with a minimum cost of 5 AP. This would cause limits to be rare, and only used in dire situations, which seems appropriately dramatic.
Korhal_IV 04-24-06, 08:18 PM	I own FFVII. It's still a silly mechanic, even there - what, are you not fighting out of desperation and anger until you've taken X damage? As long as your damage is X-1, you're perfectly calm and happy and pulling your punches, but when it hits X, BERSERKER RAAAAGE!!! For that matter, why doesn't the Rage mechanic cover this? :P
AvonRekaes 04-24-06, 10:02 PM	Okay then, you have a problem with limit breaks in general then, not his mechanics for them (although you do point out good imbalances). You're entitled to your opinion, and it certainly has a point. However illogical you consider them, though, others may feel they are a perfect fit for Eberron's pulp side. A heroic surge of power in a desperate moment. (Like the feat "heroic surge", appropriately enough) And just because there are mechanics in place for something, doesn't mean there can't be alternatives. The Rage ability is mechanically suited for a warrior type that routinely uses his anger as a power source and can maintain that state of mind for a short while. That's different that summoning up all your reserves in one climactic moment.
Sancus 04-25-06, 03:04 AM	This was retarded in Final Fantasy, and it's even more retarded in a PnP game. Offering players incentives for taking damage is ridiculous.
Korhal_IV 04-25-06, 03:13 AM	Okay, let me give you additional problems with this mechanic. Fighter A and Mage B are engaged in combat with several hobgoblins. Mage B unleashes a Fireball, which hits Fighter A. Fighter A: "Limit Break!" DM: "No. It says enemy attacks only." Fighter A: "I consider him my enemy now!" Mage B: *laughs hysterically* Mage B: "You know, I just need like five more points of damage to hit limit break...Hmmm...I stick my hand in the torch." DM: "Enemy attacks! Enemy attacks only!" Mage B: "I'm psychotic. I'm my own worst enemy." Fighter A: "He is! He Fireballed me!" Mage B: *laughs hysterically*
manneedshaircut 04-25-06, 02:04 PM	As much as I like the idea of limit breaks, Korhal does have some very valid concerns about the balance issues. Perhaps eliminate the auto-crit and maximize abilities and simply grant the use of a feat they meet the pre-reqs for. This still brings up the problem of a wizard picking up Sudden Maximize (from Complete Arcane), but you could just ban a list of feats also. Overall, though, I think that a system like this will almost certainly be more trouble than it is worth. I like the idea, but unless you have a very trustworthy and mature group of players, it will undoubtedly be abused. A clever player could probably arrange to take damage so that it looks like he is not intending to take the damage. Since it is based on max HP, wizards and other low hp characters will hit limit break more often, as Korhal has pointed out. This wouldn't be a problem if their Break was comparatively weaker than the higher hp classes, but their Break is comparatively stronger. Just my 2c.
Nurgan_the_drunked 04-25-06, 06:48 PM	Flavour- wise, if you're going for the "last surge of strength" feel (which is admittedly very Eberronish) I'd say it should be based on the fact that you are on, say, 10% of your maximum hit points, rather than amount of damage taken, as you can have taken twice your HP and be on full, which doesn't work feel wise. Perhaps you might let a PC then expend action points at a greater rate. So perhaps while at 10%, you could spend 2 AP for 2d6 bonus on attack/ skill/ saves. You might rule the DM can say no, depending on circumstances ("you had a cleric and a druid behind you, just one bad guy who'd just hit you, for not a lot of damage. You weremn't on the brink of death really") but this idea more "fits" for me. Still, the whole "surge of power after getting beaten" thing feels more like PCs going a few rounds, then thinking "We're getting kicked, guys, lets action point like there's no next session!" ;)
Lurkalot 04-25-06, 07:15 PM	I'm not familiar with Limit Breaks or where you converted them from, but it has a similar feel to the token system in Iron Heroes, another D20 game. In IH, characters accumulate tokens which they can spend on special actions, such as extra damage, super-dodges, etc. I guess the essential difference here is that they're not based on damage taken but earnt through class-appropriate actions. E.g. the Beserker actually does gain tokens based on damage taken, but the Archer gets them through giving up move actions. Maybe a system like this would be useful and it would also balance out the issues of different amounts of hitpoints for different characters. The mage would be getting his tokens from casting spells rather than soaking up damage for example.
NekoWorldOrder 04-25-06, 11:45 PM	If you want to use Limit Breaks to simulate a desperate attack in response to danger, why not have it work so that whenever a character is hit with a confirmed critical, he may, on his next turn, spend an action point so that he can use one of the Limit Break abilities you mentioned. Seems like a more balanced system to me; no worries about low HP wizards getting a ton of Sudden Metamagic uses (though fighter characters, being on the frontlines, would probably get more uses out of them), the player has no way to artifically manipulate themselves into Limit Break and the action points make the Breaks, which are powerful, a little more costly.
Arcane Guyver 04-26-06, 11:12 PM	Alrighty, responses! #1 - I don't have the mechanics totally nailed down quite yet, obviously. This is a house rule, not a printed rule, so players won't get away with stupid limit-boosting stuff. Their 'limits' will only raise when I say it does. Thus, if the PC jumps off a cliff, no limit raise for him. However, if a PC is bullrushed off a cliff and survives...well, he's earned that limit break. #2 - The 'drop the greatsword and draw a scythe' thing; valid concern. Of course, both of those are huge weapons, and regardless of what the character's Encumbrance limit is, I will be asking where the bloody hell he's keeping this armory. Yes, a scythe becomes uber-neat when used in conjunction with a limit break. I may do something about that, maybe not; you hardly ever crit with those types of weapons normally. #3 - The 10% hp thing is very FF8-ish, and is much more abuseable than just gaining damage, believe-you-me. #4 - I'm not too worried about abuse, as my players are more mature than me :D ****** Now, why I want to introduce this rule: * It might reduce the possibility of hacking & slashing monatony. Also, more uses for action points! * Players still won't enjoy taking damage; but, as they're marking off hit points on their sheet, they'll also be adding to their limit...so it's not such a big downer. * It might seem like low-HP classes will get their limits more often, but so also increases their mortality rate... * Yeah, the system isn't realistic, but it always felt good to smite the bejesus out of an enemy with a limit in video games. It may be imbalancing, but then again, I run really harsh games. I kill PCs more often than I like to admit. And as stated before, I trust my players enough to not abuse this (there are plenty of other things in official D&D to break, let alone house rules). If you guys care, I might post the final version of this rule when I get it finished.