Post/Author/DateTime	Post
KingNeo 10-13-05, 11:28 PM	I mean really doesn't the people of Eberron pretty much look doomed? The Dreaming Dark, the personal agendas of the rulers of Khorviare, the Lords of Madness, the Lords of Dust, the Cult of the Dragon Below. How are they suppose to beat all them? I mean the Dreaming Dark are basically a secret to all but a handful, and maybe the Dragons. They have almost complete control over a continent and its people. Its true rulers are immortal and can possess anyone. They have a very plentiful amount of resources. The rulers of Khorviare don't care about nothing but gaining control over the entire continent, I mean that was the hold purpose of the Last War, and then there are some who want to recreate it. They constantly steal secrets from one another, and still show hate and rage, when it was their fault to follow their greedy rulers. The Lords of Dust and Cult of the Dragon Below want to either draw upon the powers of the fiends and cause plagues across everything they see, or worst yet, they want to release their ancient masters. Masters who were beating the Dragons at full strength and when they had the Quor'Torl. But at least the Dragons got that one from being the least likey reason for total destruction. Then the Lords of Madness are probably creating things to invade Eberron again, but you really can't tell the agendas of the Daelkyr can you? But if they do, or most likely when they do, who are going to protect the world. Most of the Gatekeepers are gone and the Dragons didn't try to help defeat them when they invaded the first time. And to make it so bad all this is occuring during a time where the resources of Khorvaire are badly depleated, many soldiers have died, they are no longer unifed to stop a global threat, they would use there true enemies to defeat those they help and they are walking willing in to there traps. Everyone is doomed don't you think?
Charles Phipps 10-13-05, 11:39 PM	Not really... The Kalashatyr The Church of the Flame The Dragons The Gatekeepers Eberron isn't lacking low level heroes. It's the PCs whom are the ones whom will shatter the evil completely.
HappyDragon 10-13-05, 11:39 PM	Hmmmmm, certainly sounds like the place could use a few, oh I don't know......heroes perhaps.
zambuka 10-13-05, 11:42 PM	Everyone is doomed don't you think? Yet the prophesy sings of lighter times, of more peaceful times. Threads and notes of the ancient prophesies converge in the festering belly of Sharn, shining on a small group of adventurers drawn together by old friendships and strange circumstances. The prophesy has a destiny for these unwary treasure hunters and brawlers. a destiny that will forge them from the crude ore of a wartorn civilisation into a shining blade of might and justice to fend off the rising tide of darkness. They are.. The PCs. (How many cliches can I fit in a short post)
Splendide 10-13-05, 11:52 PM	I have to agree a bit. Its the main reason why I leave the Dreaming Dark out of my game.
KingNeo 10-13-05, 11:54 PM	Well we know a couple heroes will stop that, but even they need help lots of help. The Kalashtar are very strong, but no where near the power of the Dreaming Dark and the Region of Dreams. Plus the Kalashtar are few in number, compared to the numbers of Quori, and are so arrogant that they won't ask for the help of others, and won't even tell people about the threat. The Church of the Silver Flame. Come on na. Really the Church of the Silver Flame? They can't even solve there on problems, nor would they believe "crazed renegades of a lost continent". Especially since they are probably getting resources from them. The Church could not handle the full force of the fiends, especially since those very fiends manipualte the political powers of the Church. Ok the Dragons, and maybe the Undying, would be our tre defense against any true attack. But even they can't take all these powerful groups at once, plus would they even help the humans, elves, half-elves, gnomes, drawfs, etc.? They seem to be self drawn and would only keep themselves safe, unless some true destrutive force appeared. And once you see Dragons and Undying fighting together, or fighting at all, you know its bad really bad. The Gatekeepers are a good force, but there are only two situations that makes it hard for them to truly help such a threat. One they are few high level members, and they are even lower in number. These people need help. Badly.
KingNeo 10-13-05, 11:56 PM	Yet the prophesy sings of lighter times, of more peaceful times. Threads and notes of the ancient prophesies converge in the festering belly of Sharn, shining on a small group of adventurers drawn together by old friendships and strange circumstances. The prophesy has a destiny for these unwary treasure hunters and brawlers. a destiny that will forge them from the crude ore of a wartorn civilisation into a shining blade of might and justice to fend off the rising tide of darkness. They are.. The PCs. (How many cliches can I fit in a short post) And it is this that is the people's only hope. But it is still bad.
HappyDragon 10-14-05, 12:14 AM	they are no longer unifed to stop a global threat I would dare say that many of the singular 'baddies' of the Eberron world would not appreciate the other baddie plans and could view eachother as just as viable a threat to their diabolical plans as any would-be hero. It's a heck of a thing to present yourself as a global threat and as powerful as some of the groups are, none of them are by themselves, enough to mount a truly successful end of their goals. It would be awfully cute when the day occurs that a bunch of Inspired save Eberron from those nasty Dragon Below cultists.....boy wont those silly Kalashtars have mud on their faces then.
Euangelion 10-14-05, 12:24 AM	The trick is for the PC's to keep their heads low enough so as not to attract attention to themselves until they are personally powerful and connected with other organizations of significant capability enought to fend off the awakened might of the LoD and/or DD and/or daelkyr, etc.
Hellcow 10-14-05, 12:24 AM	I would dare say that many of the singular 'baddies' of the Eberron world would not appreciate the other baddie plans and could view eachother as just as viable a threat to their diabolical plans as any would-be hero. This is actually a critical point. The Lords of Dust have no love for the quori, and vice-versa. It's not just the good guys vs the bad guys, it's the bad guys versus the bad guys too. The Lords of Dust article in Dragon points out that Lords of Dust may actually help the PCs on occasion. The key is what you do when a rakshasa DOES help you (assuming you know it): accept it as "Well, we both want to keep Eberron away from Quori dominion" or worry about the long-term plans the LoD have for you? The Dreaming Dark is a weird group of villains that won't fit every play style. I'm a big believer in picking the villains that are going to cater to what your group likes to deal with. If you want all sorts of scheming and psionic intrigue, the DD is great. More low-level noir? Run with the Aurum. Straight-up look-at-my-black-hat EVIL? Cults of the Dragon Below and Emerald Claw (not that these can't be subtle if it suits the game, but compared to the Dreaming Dark they're usually more straightforward). But yes, right now evil does have an edge: and that's where the PCs come in, as others have said.
Charles Phipps 10-14-05, 12:26 AM	I have to agree a bit. Its the main reason why I leave the Dreaming Dark out of my game. Yeah a bunch of dream nazis are scary. One of these days I hope people realize how the Daelkyr, Rajahs, and lords of dust are MUCH more terrifying than the Freddie Krueger wannabes.
Ohtar Turinson 10-14-05, 12:34 AM	I'm pretty sure that the Rakshasa wouldn't get along with the Dreaming Dark, and they're easily as powerful if freed- the Quori control one continent. The Rakshasa ruled the entire World for centuries uncounted. The Daelkyr have destroyed worlds before. But they both LOST. It was terrible, but mortals won. That's my rationalisation for why the PCs have a prayer. Hm. Hellcow got the "LoD don't like DD" shot in before I finished posting. This is what I get for stopping writing half way through a post Hmm... this has given me idea, actually. I can see the Lords of Dust sponsering an expedition against the Inspired, so that they can free one of their masters, hidden deep within the deserts of Riedra... That could be a good campaign going from low level to epic, actually. Start out against the inspired in Khovaire, then get sent to Riedra, and find out (after causing much chaos) that you were LoD pawns all along, just as all hell breaks loose... If you have a paladin, this could be a good time for an epic level PC to become the second voice of the flame.
Rake 10-14-05, 12:44 AM	This problem applies to most settings, actually. Fantasy is all about "good vs. evil, where good faces ridiculously overwhelming odds and evil is all but sure to win". It's just that Wizard's last trophy campaign, Forgotten Realms, was an exception to this rule. The most powerful forces of evil were the gods, and the most powerful forces of good were... the gods (And Elminster, if you don't count him as one). Other settings may seem doomed by comparison, but so did Middle Earth. And it was left up to an untrained hobbit with no magic to speak of to vanquish it, in the end.
JWSIII 10-14-05, 12:52 AM	I've always thought that one of the primary defenses that Khorvaire has going for it is the common races in general, and I always assume House Cannith as the classic reason why. House Cannith is not GOOD, but its interests align strongly with the common races of Eberron. The Dreaming Dark, Lords of Dust, ect. are so scary because they are so freakin' powerful; But House Cannith with its numerous Artificers, its Schemata, the creation forges, and in general a fairly high level of magic seems to me to be the backbone of a larger effort by the common races to raise themselves up; the power of the common races is being bolstered by things like the lightning rail, skyships, warforged, heck, even cheaper minor magic items. Khorvaire in general and Cannith in particular have taken a huge hit from the last war, which is why evil is currently so strong COMPARATIVELY in my mind, but they are recovering. After all, no major recent developments in Khorvaire seem to have increased evils power, its just that the last war mosrlty pointlessly sapped goods strength in internal bickering. The modern anaology is boeing, in my mind. Is boeing good? No. Is is trying to make the world a better place? No. Is it just in it for the money? Probably. But did the b-52 play a significant role in saving democracy from totalitarianism? I believe so. House Cannith may be semi-maniacle greedy industrial barons, but they and similarly minded Dragonmarked/Five Nations groups are rapidly building up the power base of the five nations, and unlike most D&D campaigns, seem to be doing the equivalent to fundamental magical reserch in many areas. One hopes that this would pay dividends in any confrontation with evil. Of course PC's need to be heroes, but I don't think the forces protecting Khorvaire are out by any long shot regardless.
Jancarius 10-14-05, 01:03 AM	Dude, the Quori are to me WAY more dangerous than the Daelkyr. The Daelkyr seem content to sit in their individual fortresses and just chill there until whatever motivates Daelkyr motivates them to do something. The Quori can make an attempt to possess anyone, and if there's a powerful target (let's say Mordain Fleshweaver) they can use that dreamlily stuff to leave him wide open, despite his Will save (Can you imagine Mordain as a Inspired? <shudder>). The Kalashtar are the front line against them, followed by the Undying Court (immune to mind effecting as 'undead', and a whole race serving them 'immune to magical sleep'), followed by the other evil baddies.
Edymnion 10-14-05, 01:05 AM	Yeah, the basic idea is that there are all of these big nasty groups, none of which are working with each other, and many of which are fighting each other directly. The Dreaming Dark, remember, fears drastic change above all else. They believe that the turning of the age, and their own destruction, will come about by a huge change. So, they want to slowly bring all advancement and change to a standstill, so they can stay in power forever. If somebody were to be on the brink of conquering the world and slaughtering all the puny mortals, you can bet that the Dreaming Dark would step up to the plate to fight them. The Cult of the Dragon Below wants to release Khyber by gathering enough power together, which could bring them head to head against the Blood of Vol. The Rajas would be opposed by the dragons, and all of them are oppose by the Silver Flame. Essentially, everything right now is in balance. The BBEGs on the left are pushing equally hard as the BBEGs on the right, and between them, they're holding things perfectly in check in the middle. As is, the only real threat is the Dreaming Dark finally succeeding and stagnating everything. But anybody that makes an overt move to take control is going to essentially find the entire rest of the setting banding together, most likely unwittingly, to stop them. Sure, the Dreaming Dark is powerful, but can it stand before the Silver Flame, the Blood of Vol, the Lords of Dust, the Rajah Lords, the Gatekeepers, the Dragons, and literally everybody else in the entire setting fighting them at once? Not a chance. The same with everybody else. They know that sticking their neck out is only going to get their head cut off, so they hold back.
Charles Phipps 10-14-05, 02:08 AM	I pity anyone who possesses Mordain Fleshweaver. I wonder how long until the Quori who possesses him is devoured alive by his inner darkness? (Yes, I believe Mordain is THAT evil). Furthermore, the Daelkyr when released will destroy the planet. Period.
Splendide 10-14-05, 02:37 AM	Yeah a bunch of dream nazis are scary. One of these days I hope people realize how the Daelkyr, Rajahs, and lords of dust are MUCH more terrifying than the Freddie Krueger wannabes. Nah. The Dragons stepped in the last time those guys were on the scene...yet the Dreaming Dark have already taken over an entire continent and we haven't heard a word. Only some minute fragment of opposition, and they won't tell anyone. DD is worse, because you know you're alone in trying to stop them. Its the difference between a big explodey war on aliens and a psychological thriller.
Thwyvylyn 10-14-05, 02:46 AM	Doomed as this world may be, who is to say that the Dreaming Dark are not a part of the Prophecy. I mean just think if Dragonmarks start appearing on empty vessels...
aelryinth 10-14-05, 02:57 AM	I personally think that having thousands of fiends, even lesser ones, with unlimited ability to move about the Prime, would actually be enough to doom just about any normal world. Unless the dragons could figure out some way to bind each and every single one of them, you are talking about thousands of immortal beings you just can't kill forever, coming back over and over again...the havoc they could wreak on a standard mortal population while taking remarkably few risks to themselves would be remarkable. You don't even NEED that many...out of the thousands of free rakshasas, if a hundred got together and decided to kill as many people as they could without getting slain themselves, they'd soon have death tolls in the thousands, then tens of thousands, especially if they had class levels. What are mere PC's going to do against a hundred fiends? kill them? they just come back again. Will the Chamber interevene? So what? They run or get killed, reincarnate, come back again. or, as they say in Warhammer, Heroes come and heroes go, but Demons are forever. Just the EXISTENCE of so many fiends having unlimited mobility on the prime streches my sense of the setting...which is why I pretty much ignore the fact. I picture the vast majority of the fiends are indeed truly bound with their masters, or in the depths of the deserts, and simply put, they cannot leave. There might be a hundred fiends walking free, and the half-breeds, but these are ALL that's available to wheel and deal and scheme, and they aren't all friends. If one of them is killed, he might end up bound like the other fiends, so they have to be very careful or someone might pounce on them, they lose eons of memories and accumulated power...and are bound somewhere very boring like the vast majority of their kinfolk are. Thus, involving the Lords of Dust is something they do with great care...and because there are so few of them, its why they are the Lords of Dust, not the Hordes of Dust. As it stands, just on a CR basis, the numbers of fiends alone would annihilate the mortal races from Khorvaire, simply because they are, in the end, unkillable. ONly the dragons could stop them...and even then the death toll would be horrifying. ===Aelryinth
Jancarius 10-14-05, 03:05 AM	Sorry, am I missing something in the Rakasha entry? Where does it say they jsut come back to life when killed? <flips through MMIII> I don't see it anywhere here.
Just another user 10-14-05, 03:19 AM	Everyone is doomed don't you think? Yes. Isn't it beautiful? :)
Charles Phipps 10-14-05, 03:31 AM	Sorry, am I missing something in the Rakasha entry? Where does it say they jsut come back to life when killed? <flips through MMIII> I don't see it anywhere here. In Eberron, demons are immortal. It's also why I term that humanity after they dissapear in the Realm of the Dead, reincarnates. Demons know wiping out humanity is a waste of effort. They'll come back as something else. Besides, along with demons are angels.
polt 10-14-05, 03:36 AM	Also remember one thing: The reason there's so many big baddies out there, are because us DMs get a very varied collection of big bad baddies we can throw at our players. You may not like all of them, but with so many out there, there's a good chance you'll find some orginization or creature to use in your campaign. I mean, when I make a campaign where the players battle the Lord of Dust and their evil plans, I won't also throw the Quori in there.
Hellcow 10-14-05, 04:10 AM	Sorry, am I missing something in the Rakasha entry? Where does it say they jsut come back to life when killed? <flips through MMIII> I don't see it anywhere here. It's actually covered in some detail in the Lords of Dust article in Dragon 337.
Bluebrush 10-14-05, 05:52 AM	Sorry, am I missing something in the Rakasha entry? Where does it say they jsut come back to life when killed? <flips through MMIII> I don't see it anywhere here.The long and the short of it is: Outsiders have a sort of conservation of energy thing going on, where there's always the same amount of them around at the same time. So if you kill a Raksasha, another one is reborn. However, this means you can kill one raksasha to elminate his memory and personality. So it is sometimes worthwhile to kill a Raksasha if he is very dangerous, as his memories and nefarious personality will be gone, and the new one could be less effective. At least, for a few years, the new guy will have to build his way up from the ground floor. This also explains why there's so many bound outsiders in Eberron. If you kill a fiend, his energy comes back, bind him and he and his energy won't bother you until some well-intentioned adventurers release him.
Thwyvylyn 10-14-05, 05:56 AM	Greyhawk (Basic DnD) has loads of fiends but they aren't native to the material plane so when they die they go back home. Eberron/Khyber is home though for the fiends of the Eberron setting.
Streamweaver 10-14-05, 08:19 AM	I mean really doesn't the people of Eberron pretty much look doomed? I agree there is definitly a feel to the setting that Eberron is teetering on the brink of doom, but I wouldn't agree it is destined to be doomed. Generally I think you have to recognize the difference between the set-up and the outcome. I think the feel Eberron as a setting is going for is that all by itself Khorvair has begun a slow slide toward being doomed, but that is only the set up because adventure in the setting comes in when the players enter the story and have the possibility of bringing a bit of hope to the situation or at least temporarily slowing down the slide.
Jagermeister 10-14-05, 08:57 AM	The most important thing to remember here is that Evil is not monolithic anymore than Good is monolithic.
Streamweaver 10-14-05, 09:16 AM	The most important thing to remember here is that Evil is not monolithic anymore than Good is monolithic. Evil isn't inherantly monolitic but many of the evil organizations in Eberron are monolithic as presented. In particularly the Dreaming Dark, and the Delkyre (sp?) This isn't bad at all and Eberron comes with a range of villians from the non-monolithic-give-em-a-swift-kick-in-the-butt kind of evil in the Emerald Claw all the way up to the try-as-hard-as-you-like-we-will-eventually-win kind of evil that is the Dreaming Dark. This is how they are set up though and it's easy enough for DMs to change the flavor of any particular group if it doesn't fit their own taste.
AzureCenturion 10-14-05, 10:12 AM	Is Eberron doomed? Absolutely not. Not only is there the addressed point of evil being scattered out, but each of the major threats to Eberron has its own situation to deal with. Each diabolical is like the ocean, and its up to the PCs and other forces of good to makesure the levees hold. The daelkyr are mostly bound with their aberrations, but it seems most likely that they will need the return of Xoriat to truly threaten the continent. So long as their attacks on the Gatekeepers' seal can be thwarted, they can be kept at bay. Likewise too the Lords of Dust... to really doom the world, they'll need to defeat the Silver Flame (not just the Church) and bring their masters out of Khyber. On their own, the demons unbound can cause some massive suffering (like the Last War, as hinted at in the ECS) but nothing that could not be absorbed by the masses. Yes, some of the best and brightest of Khorvaire perished in the Last War, and yes most suffered from it; but this war also produced the type of societies where heroes can flourish. I guess on a micro level the plots of individual demons can be held back by PCs (or others, if the PCs aren't there... they can be held back by determined common races of low to middle level), and at the macro level they have to scheme against the Chamber, and possibly even the Prophecy itself. The Cults of the Dragon Below--Sorry, but to me these seem like your standard Lovecraftian cult villian. Kill em before they light the last candle, and there's no problem. If they do finish the ceremony, you might lose a city to rampaging death beasts before they are taken down, but no utterly destroy the world types. As for the rulers of Khorvaire--one of my favorite aspects of the setting is the NG Auranel is more likely to cause harm and death as she tries to rule the world than LE Kaius. I think that all the nations have corrupting elements, but if those can be suppresed the nations will actually help to improve the lives of the average man, not crush it. The good guys just need to make sure that no one gets the edge/provocation to restart the War. Now the most frightening force lined up against Khorvaire is the Dreaming Dark, but as Ednymnion mentioned, if the DD started a doom them all war, then they risk changing the age which they fear more than anything else. Sure, they have amazing psionic powers, the resources of a continent, and what, 40 hours a night of time to plan and communicate across the world; but they cannot act overtly. I liked the description in races of Eberron which made war between the Quori and the kalashtar a kind of fight for alignment. The more pain the Quori create (via a full up invasion, etc) the more they risk uniting Khorvaire, which creates less tension, and a higher likelyhood of good folk than evil, since they'd soon have a reason to love thy neighbour. In this situation, the Quori have to strike subtly and slowly, which cripples their fighting ability. (Besides nothing like a war and a few break enchantments to get the Riedrans to question if the Inspired make that good of leaders after all--which sets the quori back even farther). Bottom line, the situation in Eberron is like a game of chess. If you count the pieces, then evil has the upper hand, but if you look to positioning, it's still anyone's game.
MrFilthyIke 10-14-05, 11:24 AM	I soooo want to sing The Doom Song. :D
Jagermeister 10-14-05, 11:27 AM	Evil isn't inherantly monolitic but many of the evil organizations in Eberron are monolithic as presented. In particularly the Dreaming Dark, and the Delkyre (sp?) This isn't bad at all and Eberron comes with a range of villians from the non-monolithic-give-em-a-swift-kick-in-the-butt kind of evil in the Emerald Claw all the way up to the try-as-hard-as-you-like-we-will-eventually-win kind of evil that is the Dreaming Dark. This is how they are set up though and it's easy enough for DMs to change the flavor of any particular group if it doesn't fit their own taste. By Evil not being monolithic in Eberron, I meant that different sources of Evil don't necessarily aid eachother just because they are both Evil. For instance, though the Dreaming Dark and the Daelkyr might both want to spread over Eberron in ruinous ways, the probability of these two factions assisting eachother is unlikely. I think the best example of my point however is found in the Shadow Marches. Though there are numerous Cults of the Dragon Below found there, they all have different ways, beliefs, and often fight amongst themselves. In that way, though they all claim to follow the Dragon Below, they are not a monolithic entity in that they are just as likely to fight eachother as they are to fight against the side of "good"(and of course in Eberron, what the heck does that mean anyway...but that's probably a subject for a different thread :devil: ).
Jancarius 10-14-05, 12:36 PM	Where's that conservation of energy bit written? I don't believe I've seen it before.
Edymnion 10-14-05, 12:38 PM	It's actually covered in some detail in the Lords of Dust article in Dragon 337.Eh, somebody give me a yell when its covered in something that is half-way official, like a Dragonshard. Anything in an issue of Dragon might as well be written on toilet paper as far as I'm concerned. :mad:
Rake 10-14-05, 12:49 PM	It is, however, all 100% official material, and it's all written by more or less the same blokes who write the sourcebooks.
Jancarius 10-14-05, 01:10 PM	Yeah, but fortunetly or not, I don't have more than one issue of Dragon.
Hellcow 10-14-05, 07:15 PM	I picture the vast majority of the fiends are indeed truly bound with their masters... Absolutely. In the Age of Demons you had tens or even hundreds of thousands of fiends running loose. Today, you don't even have enough to fill the streets of Ashtakala. So it's not just the rajahs you have to worry about, but the rest of their servants. With that said, I think there are more than a hundred; in Dragon, I give the membership of the Council of Ashtakala as around ninety, and those are the big guns of the LoD. But a lot of them are the base 7 HD folks, and are scattered as deep moles across all of the nations of Eberron. When you consider immortality, you are correct, even ninety of these beings would be a serious problem. But of course, they CAN be bound too; and if the ninety of them gathered in one place and challenged the elder wyrms to a rumble, they are begging for the dragons (or someone else) to start doing it. Tearing apart Aundair might be fun, but it won't accomplish anything in the long run (presumably). At the same time, if it serves the needs of the story, perhaps that is exactly what is needed to unleash the Rage of War, and Mordakhesh leads barbarian hordes on fiendish beasts into Aundair. No one says they HAVE to be subtle all the time. The question is whether the dragons will interfere... and if they don't, what does that mean? (And bear in mind, the last time the dragons interefered with something on a large scale, they destroyed Xen'drik. Dragons interfering isn't necessarily good for humanity - really, all for the best if we can handle things ourselves!)
KingNeo 10-14-05, 07:37 PM	So the Dreaming Dark are the biggest conservative party? Now I know they got to die. Any who. Yes I know that heroes will prevail, actually in real life people are known to do that. So problem there. Its just that with all these events occuring, with all these groups planning, and with all the people basically poerless and have no clue. Does it not seem that they are headed for some bad, and I do mean bad times? Also didn't know that the fiends could not die. Funny huh? Now they are the worst thing to happen to the universe. And also when Eberron and Sibyerus was making there creations what where they thinking? Sure there creations are powerful, but Khyber cannot die. They can't die So what if your creations are resourceful, your brother's creations can't die. That is bad. Anyway, how can Auranel be good anyway? Always wanted to know that. She is planning to take back what was lost during the Last War, and eventually the world. This is sort of evil don't you think. I mean yeah you can prepare for battle. But is not preparing for defense, she is planning a full scale assualt. Just wanted to know.
Hellcow 10-14-05, 07:56 PM	Also didn't know that the fiends could not die. Funny huh? Now they are the worst thing to happen to the universe. And also when Eberron and Sibyerus was making there creations what where they thinking? Sure there creations are powerful, but Khyber cannot die. They can't die So what if your creations are resourceful, your brother's creations can't die. Except your creations - the couatl - can't die either. Khyber gave birth to immortals, like the rakshasa, but it also gave birth to mortal creatures, like the aboleths. Opposing them we get immortals (couatl) and mortals (dragons). Of course, Siberys didn't have anything one on one matching the rajahs, but no one said it was a fair fight. The couatl bound the rajahs using their own immortal energy: it was the fact that the couatl were immortal that gave them the strength to create such eternal bonds. Only a few couatl remain at large, but they are immortal; they will always remain to stand against the rakshasa, although the rakshasa will certainly seek to bind them. As for Aurala, I've discussed it on AKB, and it's got its own threads devoted to it - so I'll leave it to others who want to discuss it.
anarco_rata 10-14-05, 08:11 PM	Anything in an issue of Dragon might as well be written on toilet paper as far as I'm concerned. :mad: yep, to me too, buying a dragon in here is first a massive, epic quest, to find one and another to find the money to pay for it... Well, first, the number one enemy of any bad guy are other bad guys. Also, the dragons may not do anything, but just the threat that they DO is enough to scare the rakashas. Also, don't rule out the Kalashtar when you talk about the inspired. They are selfless defenders of good. That's a lot. Their lives exist only to stop the quori, and that makes a fearsome enemy.
Hellcow 10-14-05, 10:29 PM	On a random note, just to throw another long onto the how doomed is Eberron fire, one issue is just how powerful the dragons actually are. The idea of this vast continent of dragons, who destroyed Xen'drik and fought the fiends to a standstill, may leave you saying "What could we do that they couldn't?" However, what have they done lately? Failed to defeat the elves. There's a number of factors there, the most important of which is that "the dragons" are NOT a monolithic entity: Argonnessen has its own nations and cultures, and THEY don't all work together. But that aside, I think that the dragons are something of a paper tiger. That it's possible that their strength is fading, and that for whatever reason they may have lost access to some of the greatest powers of their ancestors. Whatever the case, they are unquestionably mighty: they are at least as strong as the listings in the MM, and may very well have their own tricks and ancient relics. But in my mind, the question of "If the dragons could destroy Xen'drik, why don't they destroy Aerenal?" may be because they no longer have access to powers they used before. Perhaps this is related to the Prophecy, and reflects the dragons' desire to unlock the Prophecy; perhaps the appearance of the dragonmarks was balanced by a corresponding loss of draconic power. Maybe it is tied to the destruction of Xen'drik: the dying giants laid a curse on the dragons, and while the dragons have kept this secret, it haunts them still. In any case, there's no question that a Great Wyrm is one of the mightiest creatures on Eberron, and no one wants to draw the wrath of a hundred dragons - but he might not be as powerful as his great-great-great-grandfather was. This throws in another adventure idea, as the Chamber believes that the party may hold the key to unlocking some mystery of their own fading power. BUT... at the moment Argonnessen is a mystery. It's up to you to decide the truth; this is just one possibility to consider.
KingNeo 10-14-05, 10:58 PM	Actually I have my own theory about why the attacks made by the Dragons against the Elves failed, this also is part of the reason why I think the Elves, the Undying to be specific, and Dragons (only some of course) hate each other. The Undying gained there immortality, as the supernatural powers they possess, through the Dragonic Prophecy which they are trying to unlock further. This caused some Dragons, but only a few nothing like an entire legion, to resent the Undying because they are trying to access the power which is their birthright. But the Undying are at a standstill and cannot invade, something the Dragons could do with ease. For the strongest of the Undying to leave Aerenal would be like a vampire walking in the daylight. Absolute suicide. This causes the Undying to resent the Dragons further, and if the Undying resent something then the Elves of Aerenal resent them to, for who are they to judge their ancestors? And for some reason the Dragons are ignoring them, seeing them as insects, whose minds could never comprehend the very power of the Prophecy. The weak attacks they cause are only there because its a personal vendetta. So long as these rogue dragons do not intervere with the Prophecy, it is ok with the majority of the dragons, and no fury. Thats how I see it. Rogue Dragons verse the Undying. It not that the Undying are stronger than the Dragons, or the Dragons are losing power. It is just that the Dragons just don't care and just want to comtemplate the Prophecy.
Streamweaver 10-14-05, 11:08 PM	By Evil not being monolithic in Eberron, I meant that different sources of Evil don't necessarily aid eachother just because they are both Evil. For instance, though the Dreaming Dark and the Daelkyr might both want to spread over Eberron in ruinous ways, the probability of these two factions assisting eachother is unlikely. Ah yes, I missunderstood you. Yep agreed, Evil isn't singularly monolithic in Eberron. The conflict between evil organizations is a hard thing to get across as a DM effectively but it's a nice element of the setting for sure. I think this is part of a larger issue that Eberron generally addresses, that is that things have CONTEXT in Eberron. Good organizations don't exist just to be a place for good people to hang around and do good things. In Eberron heroes exists instead of do-gooders (or do badders), and heroes are heroes because they have something to do they have a context beyond this is good or bad. Indiana Jones worked as a flawed hero because he had to stop the Nazis from using the Ark. By contrast look at a story like Star Wars (I'm a SW fan mind you) the Jedi are out doing good things simply because they are good, they oppose the Sith simply because they are evil. Things aren't iconic in Eberron and yep I agree with what you were saying.
Euangelion 10-14-05, 11:30 PM	Good organizations don't exist just to be a place for good people to hang around and do good things. In Eberron heroes exists instead of do-gooders (or do badders), and heroes are heroes because they have something to do they have a context beyond this is good or bad. Indiana Jones worked as a flawed hero because he had to stop the Nazis from using the Ark. I don't know, I thought one valid motivation/rationale for the PC's being the heroes of Eberron is that of all the people of the land, they are the only ones who are willing to stand up and fight just because "It's the Right Thing To Do!" and who have the potential to become powerful enough to actually make it happen. It's not like Indiana Jones ever wrestled with using the Ark himself to rule the world (which is what a true flawed hero would be struggling with, IMHO.) I'm not saying that's the only way a hero can be a hero in Eberron, but I can't recall anything that rules such a storyline invalid according to the "pulp" side of the tone of Eberron. "Proximo, are you in danger of becoming a good man?" Maximus asks.
Saurenda 10-14-05, 11:31 PM	Since we are starting to dicuss theories about why said attacks have failed, why the dragon sit around all day, and Keith's mention of a curse/diminishing power of the dragons. I'd like to throw the idea of the Orbs of Dragonkind being created sometime around the period when the Giant's empire fell. Certainly a good reason for the Dragon's to ouright attack with utter devistation as the giants started toying with all sorts of "no-no" magic before severing the connection to Dal Qour. Also in the mention of Dragons, has anyone considered that the dragons may have lost the power to travel beyond Argonnessen? Or a reason they risk trips out into the world to go to the most desolate of locations to select the simplest of warriors to view thier awe and accompany them back on thier island continent is for protection while thier wanning powers flicker in desperation to uncover the prophecy? This description fits better to me, as Kieth mentioned them as "paper tigers". Sure lots of HD is good, the enormous bodies, breathweapons, wings, and sorcerous powers are nice. Even Godlike to humans, but what where the dragons like before the Giants severed the plane of dreams? I'm sure they've felt a definite decrease in thier powers and egos. It might even be necessary to seclude themselves, uninterrupted for every spare thought they can devote to something they'll never reveal. They've become Xenophobic as they saw the other races develop. They were first. Perhaps it is just jealousy, and fear of thier own diminsihment. The time line in ECB says they "redsicovered" the prophecy. Usually when people rediscover something(an idea or philosophy), they alter it to suit themselves. Perhaps the prophecy was appropiate at the time they faught the demons, but wained when it came time to stand up to the elves. They had immortality. The elves had immortality. Perhaps this made the prophecy invalid. I can see alot of dragons constantly changing the 'prophecy' to suit thier own ends as a race. Something they can justify thier continued existance with, and keep from fading into a "primal" state.
Charles Phipps 10-14-05, 11:31 PM	Actually, to change my opinion... Is Eberron doomed? Yes, absolutely. The forces of darkness are ascendent in Eberron and those powers will come to a head and probably bring the world to it's knees in an age of chaos and destruction. Yes, Eberron pretty much has the forces of evil arrayed against it and it will lose. Are the PCs the chosen ones who can turn it back? Maybe not. PCs in Eberron might be cops in Sharn or they might be fighting against the entirely mundane threats of the neighboring countries. It's a dark setting though. Victory is POSSIBLE in Eberron, don't get me wrong. It's not Ravenloft where evil is innate to the setting. It is a place though that will fall to darkness and shadow though and soon. The PC's entire mood will be colored by the rising darkness no matter what their goals. It's important to note that things are NOT balanced on Eberron, they are NOT going to turn out fine, and things are getting worse.
jknevitt 10-15-05, 12:17 AM	The Kalashatyr Don't know about these guys, but the kalashtar might be of some use.
Charles Phipps 10-15-05, 12:27 AM	Don't know about these guys, but the kalashtar might be of some use. Obviously your pitiful human brain cannot fathom the higher spelling ;-)
The White Sorcerer 10-15-05, 12:55 AM	Of course, Siberys didn't have anything one on one matching the rajahs, but no one said it was a fair fight. It should also be noted that while Khyber is only bound and sleeping, Siberys is DEAD. So it might be harder for Siberys to create creatures (although it's possible, there's a lot of remnant magic up there. A LOT), Khyber is propably churning out monsters as we speak.
Tainted Mage 10-15-05, 01:17 AM	Dragons won't step in unless they're threatened, OR their prophacy is. And why does no one think of the Changlings/Dopplegangers? The Cabinet of Trickesters? I don't think the Traveller would warn them simply to have them get wiped out... I'd vote they'd be a major force, possibly win enough recognition to be recognized as an indepent nation/land.... -edit- And what of the Lord of Blades? I'd imagine him as a threat, especially if he can get his Creation Forge working properly, or simply sway the majority of the Warforged...
Jancarius 10-15-05, 01:26 AM	Eh, I can't really think of such chaotic beings as having a unified goal or decision really anyway.
Tainted Mage 10-15-05, 01:39 AM	Eh, I can't really think of such chaotic beings as having a unified goal or decision really anyway. "A far-reaching conflict will seem devastating and unrepeatable. Be patient and wait. After it ends, gather your strengthand prepare to act. The next threat truely will put all the world in peril." As the Cabinet worships the Traveler, not idolizes like many Changlings do, but WORSHIPS enough to where they could be clerics to him(especially Dopplegangers, who're more powerful)... I'd imagine them as being very much intent on gathering strength. I don't think ANYONE takes a direct order from their god as an 'idea', as to command... I'd see magical items of power finding their way to the Cabinet... As well as increasing their influence/member base.
Jancarius 10-15-05, 01:47 AM	I was of the impression that Eberron gods do not give direct orders or in fact, do anything besides grant spells (and really not even that).
Deadguy 10-15-05, 01:19 PM	I was of the impression that Eberron gods do not give direct orders or in fact, do anything besides grant spells (and really not even that). Whilst I regard that as "true" from my perspective as DM standing outside the setting, I am sure that for believers within the setting, then of course their gods speak to them. Maybe not often, and maybe not always understandably, but individuals and groups feel that they are moved by Divine Will to do certain things. Realistically, does it make any difference whether the founders of the Cabint of Faces were really aided by a god, or simply believe that to be the case? Either way, they do the same things, and use the same powers. To the PCs the experience of the Cabinet remains the same.
Tainted Mage 10-15-05, 02:45 PM	I was of the impression that Eberron gods do not give direct orders or in fact, do anything besides grant spells (and really not even that). If a book of Eberron says that they had a messanger(which was possesed by the Traveler), who said that. Then yes, apparently he/she did give a direct order.
Charles Phipps 10-15-05, 02:58 PM	If a book of Eberron says that they had a messanger(which was possesed by the Traveler), who said that. Then yes, apparently he/she did give a direct order. The DM is left to determine if that's a Rajah, Lord of Dust, Archangel, Slaadi, or what not
aelryinth 10-15-05, 04:25 PM	Hey Edyminion..... So, a Lords of Dust Dragon Magazine article written by someone named Keith Baker is only useful as toilet paper? Interesting. Do you print out Dragonshards for the same use? :) ==Aelryinth
Tainted Mage 10-16-05, 01:26 AM	The DM is left to determine if that's a Rajah, Lord of Dust, Archangel, Slaadi, or what not Um, not in the case I mentioned. The Traveler possesses one of the Cabinet, which is composed of solely Changlings and Dopplegangers...
Charles Phipps 10-16-05, 01:33 AM	Um, not in the case I mentioned. The Traveler possesses one of the Cabinet, which is composed of solely Changlings and Dopplegangers... Except...he doesn't do that unless the DM says so. Keith said the gods have stories but the Dracolich in the keeper's vault isn't thatand his comments on the Lord of Worms adventure pretty much says that nothing like that ever happens. What they believe isn't the truth.
Jancarius 10-16-05, 03:22 AM	What are all the published adventure modules for Eberron? I know the ECS comes with the Forgotten forge, and there's Shadow's of the Last War, Whisper of the Vampire's Blade (Honestly, thought this was one of the coolest pre-mades I've played around with), and Grasp of the Emerald Claw.
Tainted Mage 10-16-05, 12:58 PM	Except...he doesn't do that unless the DM says so. Keith said the gods have stories but the Dracolich in the keeper's vault isn't thatand his comments on the Lord of Worms adventure pretty much says that nothing like that ever happens. What they believe isn't the truth. Uh huh... Then you can't really claim ANYTHING the books say to be anything more than a "general guide". Sorry, but certain things, namely when they get specific, I don't see as changable in storyline detail. Creator or not, it was published that way, and so should be followed that way. Hell, you want to twist anything you can, why not say the Dreaming Dark really doesn't exist, and those who believe it are really inside the Matrix- but programmed Eberron style?
LaoKhanWei 10-16-05, 07:01 PM	Concerning the fiends, I think it's important to note that they can die. Sure, another fiend will be born to take their place but they aren't a hive mind! The individual fiends do not want to die anymore than you or I do. This is my interpretation of their general attitude towards death anyway.
KingNeo 10-16-05, 10:20 PM	Dragons won't step in unless they're threatened, OR their prophacy is. And why does no one think of the Changlings/Dopplegangers? The Cabinet of Trickesters? I don't think the Traveller would warn them simply to have them get wiped out... I'd vote they'd be a major force, possibly win enough recognition to be recognized as an indepent nation/land.... -edit- And what of the Lord of Blades? I'd imagine him as a threat, especially if he can get his Creation Forge working properly, or simply sway the majority of the Warforged... Actually I don't think that the Changlings/Dopplegangers are going to destroy the world. In fact they may save the world. The Traveler gave them a warning, just like the first of the Gatekeepers got a warning, and with that warning they are preparing for something. Now what they are preparing for is a mystery, but seeing the personas of these beings and the Traveler himself it would have to be something big. The Cabinet of Faces, is in my belief, an extension of the Chamber, not the actually Chamber of course, but the reasons are the same. Now as for the Lord of Blades being a threat. I laugh. The Lord of Blades is bad, but he is not global bad. He doesn't have the power to destroy all of Eberron. He might be able to take over a couple miles of land, and establish an empire, but at this point, and maybe never, he is incapable of establishing absolute power.
Charles Phipps 10-16-05, 10:27 PM	Uh huh... Then you can't really claim ANYTHING the books say to be anything more than a "general guide". Sorry, but certain things, namely when they get specific, I don't see as changable in storyline detail. Creator or not, it was published that way, and so should be followed that way. Hell, you want to twist anything you can, why not say the Dreaming Dark really doesn't exist, and those who believe it are really inside the Matrix- but programmed Eberron style? Dude, read the Age of Worms guide. If you want to argue with this point, argue with Baker. But the facts are facts.
Hellcow 10-16-05, 11:42 PM	Uh huh... Then you can't really claim ANYTHING the books say to be anything more than a "general guide". Sorry, but certain things, namely when they get specific, I don't see as changable in storyline detail. Then I'm afraid you're doomed to disapointment with Eberron, TM. It is a simple fact of the Eberron Campaign Setting that the gods may or may not exist, and that's not simply my opinion. Something may slip by an editor - as in the case of the RoE section you quoted - but, the WotC design guide, which all Eberron writers are expected to adhere to, states "The gods never manifest. Although magic and miracles do work in Eberron, there is no empirical proof that the gods even exist (it's a matter of faith)." Let's look at the specific example. It says "Occasionally, the Traveler or one of its envoys will possess one of the cabinet rulers to convey a message..." The key here is that the WRITER has made it sound more specific than it should. Because how do the Cabinet people KNOW the truth? They know that a force possesses the leader, that conforms to their beliefs of what the Traveler is and how the Traveler should behave. But is it a god? Is it the psionic residue of a hundred thousand dead changelings? Is it the spirit of an ascended dragon? Is it the spirit of Eberron itself, choosing to speak through 15 masks for reasons of her own? Or just a powerful chaotic outsider like an eladrin, who's choosing to use the title of the Traveler to add a little oomph to it's messages? What is unquestioned is that there are forces that possess leaders of the Cabinet, and that they believe these are the Traveler "and his envoys". SOMETHING does talk to them, so yes, the Cabinet may be a force to consider in the fate of the world. But whether or not it's truly the Traveler - that's another question, and trust me, future Eberron sourcebooks are not going to say "Well, RoE has conclusively established the existence of the Traveler - tomorrow let's have her show up at Thronehold." If you WANT the gods to play an active role in the world, do it: we're not going to stop you. But it is a clearly established principle of the setting that the gods never act in ways that conclusively prove their existence. The Cabinet believe they deal with the Chamber, and the PrC is written from their perspective of faith. But I've just given you five possible explanations for the nature of this force, and in another five minutes I could come up with a dozen others. The member of the Cabinet will dismiss every one as ludicrous: SHE knows the truth, and it's this very faith that allows her to serve as a vessel for the Traveler, whatever the Traveler may be. But the fact remains that it is a matter of faith, not something that can be known for certain. Hell, you want to twist anything you can, why not say the Dreaming Dark really doesn't exist... Actually, if you don't want to use the Dreaming Dark in your campaign, that's not a bad idea. The setting is a guideline, and if you don't like something, you should change it. If you want gods to walk the world as they do in FR, add it. On the other hand, the existence of the DD is established in multiple locations: you're basing the confirmed existence of the Traveler on a sentence in RoE, while the ECS says "Eberron is not blessed (or cursed) with deities... that take an active role in mortal affairs." (ECS page 35) The Traveler is typically seen as the MOST active god in the pantheon, and *I* have often said that tales of the Traveler are often the result of doppelgangers engaged in divine channeling. The point is that WHAT they are channeling remains as mysterious as what grants the spell-power of a corrupt cleric of Aureon. It may be the Traveler, or it may be any of the forces described above. So you can change things or not as you wish... but the ambiguity of the deities is certainly something that will be a continuing theme in Eberron material, even if people occasionally forget to emphasize it.
Jancarius 10-17-05, 02:19 AM	Powned.
Tainted Mage 10-17-05, 11:41 AM	Well... Not really, with the extened mental/psychic powers of the 'advanced' Changlings/Dopplegangers, I'm positive that they'd be able to discern as to if the person wasn't divinely 'inspired'. And if Neo was paying attention, I pointed out the Cabinet as possible Eberron saviors at the next cataclysm. As to claiming the Dreaming Dark doesn't exist, bad idea. Easier to simply ignore it. They're quiet enough so that the PCs may have heard nothing about it. And the Kal' don't exactally go around begging for help. It may be the Traveler, or it may be any of the forces described above. You didn't mention any forces, just that it's a mystery as to how they draw their power. Which from my understanding of clerics(don't play them, nor do my characters ever care for them aside the healing-goodness), they draw their powers from divinity."engaged in divine spellcasting" - As ANY divinity would mean a god/goddess... Simply the existance of clerics on Eberron should be enough to prove some divinity exists. And finally, to Jancarius, do something useful. I don't mind bashing on my ideas, but simpy saying one word like that is complete and utter n00bdom for you. -edit- And for the Lord of Blades, if he could get his Creation Forge working again, or gather most of the Warforged, he would be a threat.
Jagermeister 10-17-05, 11:57 AM	You didn't mention any forces, just that it's a mystery as to how they draw their power. Which from my understanding of clerics(don't play them, nor do my characters ever care for them aside the healing-goodness), they draw their powers from divinity."engaged in divine spellcasting" - As ANY divinity would mean a god/goddess... Simply the existance of clerics on Eberron should be enough to prove some divinity exists. In Eberron, Clerics could draw their power from faith, or from deities, or from some other mysterious source. However, the deities may or may not exist. That's the way it is, but you can change it if you want for your games, so what's the point of the arguement. Furthermore, constricting the "Divine" to mean a God or Goddess is a very restrictive and narrow view of a philosophically broad topic. If you can't wrap your head around the way Clerical magic is handled according to the ECS, then change it for your games or you could always play something else. I don't see the point of trying to convince people that a sentence in RoE is somehow going to be the authority over what is written in the ECS. It's my opinion that the ECS is has the final say on what is canon when a later book contradicts it. It is the heart of the setting afterall. It might also be worth mentioning that RoE isn't even an "Eberron" book, it's a "Races of" book. I don't consider anything in RoE canon anymore than I do any other "Races of" book.
Hellcow 10-17-05, 12:13 PM	Furthermore, constricting the "Divine" to mean a God or Goddess is a very restrictive and narrow view of a philosophically broad topic. That's the issue here. Are the leaders of the Cabinet inspired by some sort of divine force? You bet. But do they really know what it is? No - how could they? They know what they BELEIVE it is, and because it is their faith that grants the power, you're not going to easily introduce doubt into their minds. But you can't just use planar travel and go visit with a god; if they exist, it's on some higher level of reality that we can touch. There is commune, but again, how do you know what you're touching? Even the PHB acknowledges that it may simply be a powerful outsider. And, we've already got the Silver Flame as an example of a divine, spell-granting force that is NOT a god or goddess. The nature of the divine is intentionally a mystery. It's one you can solve in your game if you want. But as I said, it's not a position that will suddenly be reversed in future Eberron books. It might also be worth mentioning that RoE isn't even an "Eberron" book, it's a "Races of" book. Yeah, I wasn't going to mention that, but technically, it is true.
Jagermeister 10-17-05, 02:32 PM	The nature of the divine is intentionally a mystery. It's one you can solve in your game if you want. But as I said, it's not a position that will suddenly be reversed in future Eberron books. Exactly. I think it was Joseph Campbell who said in his "Power of Myth" that the very nature of the divine is something that cannot be defined, transcends boundaries, and eludes all grasping. But at any rate, I am glad Eberron's stance on Divine Magic won't be changing. It's one of my many favorite aspects of the setting.
Tainted Mage 10-17-05, 03:40 PM	That's the issue here. Are the leaders of the Cabinet inspired by some sort of divine force? You bet. But do they really know what it is? No - how could they? They know what they BELEIVE it is, and because it is their faith that grants the power, you're not going to easily introduce doubt into their minds. But you can't just use planar travel and go visit with a god; if they exist, it's on some higher level of reality that we can touch. There is commune, but again, how do you know what you're touching? Even the PHB acknowledges that it may simply be a powerful outsider. And, we've already got the Silver Flame as an example of a divine, spell-granting force that is NOT a god or goddess. I dunno about the faith is powered by belief thing. That's like saying I could do anything if I believed it enough... And I'd also say the Races of Eberron is more than JUST a races of book, as it gives a hell of a lot more detail on some races than the Eberron series books do, namely on Changlings. As it says of them, the Reality Seekers have a high faith in the "ultimate truth", but they rarely become clerics due to this. Aside the Silver Flame is sentinent. One of the specific Eberron books mentions that, and that some lady ascended mortality(unsure if she's just massively powered spirit entity or demigod) to become the voice for it. The Silver Flame creeps me out, reminds me of the Ori(however it's spelled) off of the new Star Gate series. o_O
Crystalforged 10-17-05, 04:22 PM	I notice a fair number of people are dismissing the threat posed by the Lord of Blades to the world. Personally I think the one thing you are forgetting is the Mournland itself. I mean the Lord of Blades is trying to figure out how to repeat the Mourning and if he figures out how to all of the fleshies are in BIG trouble. Think about it, if he can either repeat the day of Mouring or make the boarders of the Mournland expand he would nearly unstoppable, especially if he could get that creation forge running at full capacity. None of the humanoid nations could sustain any sort of invasion into the Mournland and if the dragons or the Deathless ever decided to do anything, well the they are powerful but even they would have trouble when they are fighting the land itself for survival. Heck even most of the other bad guys would be in trouble. The Lords of Dust and the Delkyr would have the same problems as the dragons. The Dreaming Dark has big problems too because warforged do not sleep or dream so they can't posses any of them and its going to be hard for any humanoids to infiltrate a the LoB's operation even if they are Inspired. Really the only group that could take him on without being at a huge disadvantage would be Vol with her undead minions.
Jagermeister 10-17-05, 05:09 PM	I dunno about the faith is powered by belief thing. That's like saying I could do anything if I believed it enough... And I'd also say the Races of Eberron is more than JUST a races of book, as it gives a hell of a lot more detail on some races than the Eberron series books do, namely on Changlings. As it says of them, the Reality Seekers have a high faith in the "ultimate truth", but they rarely become clerics due to this. The "faith is powered by belief" concept is not the only way you could work it for your Eberron games, but it is the most likely based on the material. Deities were not meant to manifest and save the day in Eberron. Just because you don't know about it, doesn't mean it is refuted as the standard. And comparing what clerics can do with divine magic in Eberron to what you could do if you just believed enough IRL is a ridiculous comparison. Can you study a book and then throw fireballs? Can you manifest a functioning Dragonmark? Of course not, though some people still get them as tattoos. :devil: And you can say whatever opinion you want about RoE being more than just a "Races of" book, but that is still exactly what it is. It is not an Eberron book in any official capacity. I'm not saying you shouldn't use bits and pieces from it for your games, but have fun sifting through the inconsistencies(see various other threads for those if you're interested).
Jancarius 10-17-05, 07:09 PM	And finally, to Jancarius, do something useful. I don't mind bashing on my ideas, but simpy saying one word like that is complete and utter n00bdom for you. -edit- And for the Lord of Blades, if he could get his Creation Forge working again, or gather most of the Warforged, he would be a threat.Dude, I've been on this board two years longer than you. Your arguement just got torn apart by the CREATOR of the Campaign Setting. In otherwords, it's like telling Stan Lee he's completly wrong about the nature of one of his characters. You are free to say "Well, in my campaign, I'm rewriting a fundamental theme of Eberron" but, as far as 'canon' Eberron goes, your arguement just got blown completly out of the water. What is with people who use that changeling avatar and being unable to grasp obvious and basic concepts? You and that guy in the "why does magic suck" thread, both. I dunno about the faith is powered by belief thing. That's like saying I could do anything if I believed it enough...Yes, that IS what it is saying... If you lived in Eberron. Or at least, that you could do anything made capable by the Cleric spell list and your personal caster level. And I'd also say the Races of Eberron is more than JUST a races of book, as it gives a hell of a lot more detail on some races than the Eberron series books do, namely on Changlings. But it's not. Again, your arguement has been completly nullified by the statement of the setting creator. The RoE book is more a book for how to incorporate Eberron races into other settings than it really is an Eberron book. Aside the Silver Flame is sentinent. One of the specific Eberron books mentions that, and that some lady ascended mortality(unsure if she's just massively powered spirit entity or demigod) to become the voice for it. Tira Morian. She merged with the flame to help it defeat the demon. I notice a fair number of people are dismissing the threat posed by the Lord of Blades to the world. Personally I think the one thing you are forgetting is the Mournland itself. I mean the Lord of Blades is trying to figure out how to repeat the Mourning and if he figures out how to all of the fleshies are in BIG trouble. Think about it, if he can either repeat the day of Mouring or make the boarders of the Mournland expand he would nearly unstoppable, especially if he could get that creation forge running at full capacity. None of the humanoid nations could sustain any sort of invasion into the Mournland and if the dragons or the Deathless ever decided to do anything, well the they are powerful but even they would have trouble when they are fighting the land itself for survival. Heck even most of the other bad guys would be in trouble. The Lords of Dust and the Delkyr would have the same problems as the dragons. The Dreaming Dark has big problems too because warforged do not sleep or dream so they can't posses any of them and its going to be hard for any humanoids to infiltrate a the LoB's operation even if they are Inspired. Really the only group that could take him on without being at a huge disadvantage would be Vol with her undead minions.Seems to me the Emerald Claw would be able to handle it just fine. In Marked for Death (novel), the Mournland honestly wasn't that bad. I've played in dungeons nastier than that. The far greater threat is whatever caused the Mourning, which I don't believe the LoB had anything to do with. And as I see it, the Warforged would be just as annihlated by another Mourning as any other non-undead race. Actually, it wasn't mentioned anywhere, so what happened to Karnathi undead troops inside Cyre during the Mourning? I assume they were unaffected or in some way bolstered.
Charles Phipps 10-17-05, 07:40 PM	Seems to me the Emerald Claw would be able to handle it just fine. In Marked for Death (novel), the Mournland honestly wasn't that bad. I've played in dungeons nastier than that. The far greater threat is whatever caused the Mourning, which I don't believe the LoB had anything to do with. And as I see it, the Warforged would be just as annihlated by another Mourning as any other non-undead race. Actually, it wasn't mentioned anywhere, so what happened to Karnathi undead troops inside Cyre during the Mourning? I assume they were unaffected or in some way bolstered. The Emerald Claw isn't entirely undead though, it's not the Army of the Dead. It's a vast army of normal human beings that just happens to have a substantial force of the undead working for it. It's necessary for them to effectively function like the Aerenal to some extent, basically only a select and elite being 'promoted' so that they can function in normal society. And the problem of the Lord of Blades isn't the fact that he's a significant military threat. It's the fact that he's an insane extremist as well as a man whom is unquestionably an elite/genius in the setting. It's one thing to have a military genius and political mastermind in the world. That sort can affect drastic and devastating changes but they can be relied upon not to dump where they eat and leave too much lasting damage. It's also one thing to have an extremist who wants to wipe out every one of X ethnicity or cultural group. It's another thing ENTIRELY to have both embodied in one man. The Lord of Blades is willing to kill 90% of all warforged in the world no doubt to make sure he gets 100% of all humans. He also has the intelligence and arguably the study of methods of doing it. If the Lord of Blades knew how to raise the Rajahs for one hundred years then seal them away after they'd destroyed the world, he'd do it....which means he's willing to research that sort of thing. It's like Bond villains....usually no one whose a billionaire is insane enough to want to start a nuclear war and destroy his property/position but Blades is one of them.
KingNeo 10-17-05, 07:55 PM	Ok Tainted Mage think about now. If clerics, as well as other divine spellcasters, didn't believe how could they cast spells? Even in PHB they say that clerics cast their spells through faith and belief. It isn't the gods that do this but the belief these casters have, or a combination of both. Also how are you going to argue with the creator of Eberron? Thats like someone argueing with God. Also in my opinion the gods and goddesses do not exist, they are not divine beings, they have just reached such a plateau of power and understanding that they have transcended to higher plane of existance. Yes, just like the Ancients and Ori off of the Stargate series. And think about it several classes allow you to do this, as well as powers that allow you to do this. First off the Dragonic Prophecy, ultimate power, and can do anything. The Monk becomes an outsider and immortal at level 20, and other classes allow you to become elemental, fey, etc. So lets not so quickly judge. Also the others are right, and like Hellcow said the "Races of" series are not technically offical Eberron material. So it is not law. Plus it is called human error. edit And before I forget, and like I said the Lord of Blades is not that big of a threat. We can pretty much guantuatee that the Dragons and Undying could beat the Lord of Blades, its call 10,000-10,000,000 years of magic plus the Dragonic Prophecy. If he discovered the secret of creating the Mourningland then that would be bad, but I doubt if he knew the secret he would live for long. He would be a threat to the Prophecy at that point and who do we know who would never allow the Prophecy to be threaten?
aelryinth 10-17-05, 08:12 PM	Yeah, Dragons won't have a problem, all they have to do is locate him. Strafe. Strafe. Strafe. Wounded? Oh no, we can't heal in the Mournland! So how about we go up ABOVE the Mournland, heal ourselves up, and then head back down? Mmm. As for the Lords of Dust, they can teleport. What's the Mournland to them? ==+Aelryinth
Charles Phipps 10-17-05, 08:22 PM	And before I forget, and like I said the Lord of Blades is not that big of a threat. We can pretty much guantuatee that the Dragons and Undying could beat the Lord of Blades, its call 10,000-10,000,000 years of magic plus the Dragonic Prophecy. If he discovered the secret of creating the Mourningland then that would be bad, but I doubt if he knew the secret he would live for long. He would be a threat to the Prophecy at that point and who do we know who would never allow the Prophecy to be threaten? Oh pft, the only thing the DM needs to say is that the Dragons don't care. They're not the Chosen (hell, the Chosen aren't the Chosen) Blue Dragon: MY GOD! The Dragon Prophecy says a warforged in the Mournland will destroy Eberron tomorrow! Red Dragon: I'm quite certain you're wrong. Blue Dragon: What?! The stars clearly say so! Red Dragon: Tut tut but my TEA leaves say that adventurers will stop him. Blue Dragon: We shouldn't trust the future to adventurers! Red Dragon: Ah, but then we might guarantee it! Green Dragon: I believe that this incident won't happen for another ten thousand years actually due to the growth of the fungus here. Black Dragon: Bawlderdash! Obviously, according to the sayings of Sun-Wing from the 4000th year of Taisho, the true threat is in a 'Mourn' 'Land' that is lead by a 'Lord' 'of Blades' that is a metaphor for King Boranal in Breland whom is a great warrior and King of a weeping nation. Gold Dragon: Shouldn't we assume it refers to the Lord of Blades of the Mournlands that the humans name? Black Dragon: No doubt that was set up by the Lords of Dust to confuse us. Silver Dragon: I believe we should consult the Draconomicron to determine whether or not we should proceed? Bronze Dragon: The King James edition or the Vulgate? Silver Dragon: Vulgate. Bronze Dragon: But I like the King's Jame's version. *proceeds for two hundred years* Real help that bunch.
ORC_Paradox 10-17-05, 09:45 PM	Doomed? Of course. Kay: We do not discharge our weapons in view of the public! Jay: We don't got time for this cover-up..stuff. Look, I don't know if you forgot, but there's an Arquillian Battle... Kay: There's always an Arquillian Battle Cruiser, or a Korilian Death Ray, or an intergalactic plague that is about to wipe out all life on this miserable planet.
Hellcow 10-17-05, 10:36 PM	Again, your arguement has been completly nullified by the statement of the setting creator It's not my intention to nullify it. As I said, if you WANT there to be traditional gods in Eberron, go ahead. But I am saying that the single sentence from RoE does NOT nullify the statements given in the core Eberron books and by the original Eberron design team that the existence of the gods is a thing of mystery. There ARE forces out there - and one of them interacts with the Cabinet. But what is it? What is it really capable of? Is it possible that it is just the strength of their own faith? The Silver Flame IS effectively the Ori (at least this time we can prove that we weren't copying SG1, since we had our magic flame first!): it is a source of immense spiritual power created by a race of ascended beings, which can channel its collective might through its servants. But aren't the SG1 people always reminding us that the Ori AREN'T gods? And that's the point with the Traveler and the Cabinet. The clerics of the Traveler DO have access to a source of power, as shown by their ability to cast spells. But is this force a "god"? A powerful outsider? The collective will of a million worshippers? The faith of the cleric shaping the energy of the Ring of Syberis in the same way that a wizard uses formulas to alter reality? Any of these could be true, and from a day-to-day standpoint, they will all have the same impact on the world. We know the Cabinet gets prophetic warnings in times of trouble: but we don't know what sends them, only what they BELIEVE sends them. And Jancarius, of course the changeling icon means TM will disagree with me - after all, I said earlier that no member of the Cabinet would question his own faith. There are divine forces in Eberron, certainly. The point is that they are not the same sort of gods that you can find in other settings. They don't manifest physically. You can't interact with them without the interface of fiath and magic - and through that interface, it's impossible to know exactly what you are dealing with. As for the Lords of Dust, they can teleport. Well, the powerful ones can. But you know the standard 7 HD rakshasa can't teleport, right? It's got the spell-casting power of a 7th level sorcerer, and its only supernatural abilities are detect thoughts and change shape. So they aren't as moble as, say, succubi.
KingNeo 10-17-05, 10:52 PM	Yeah, Dragons won't have a problem, all they have to do is locate him. Strafe. Strafe. Strafe. Wounded? Oh no, we can't heal in the Mournland! So how about we go up ABOVE the Mournland, heal ourselves up, and then head back down? Mmm. As for the Lords of Dust, they can teleport. What's the Mournland to them? ==+Aelryinth And the Dragons can't? Come on now, ultimate bearers of magic with minds capable of understanding the complex mysteries of the Dragonic Prophecy, and use the Prophecy for there own gains. Now if they can do all this what stops them from casting a 5th level spell? Or any spell really? To locate the Lord of Blades all they have to do is use the Prophecy. We sense a terrible disturbence in the Prophecy, someone is summoning great power. We must destroy it before we all are lost. And anyway what warriors of the Lord of Blades do you know who can take on an entire continent of Dragons? Or pierce through that hide which is stronger than steel and there own built-in armor? Then they would have to survive the infamous deadly breath weapon. This would be too hard a task for the Lord of Blades and his minions. The Lord of Blades could not defeat one dragon, and if he cannot then it is most likely that his minions cannot. And if there was a warrior capable of doing this and the Lord of Blades knew about it, what would be the odds of him killing that minion?
KingNeo 10-17-05, 11:01 PM	Oh pft, the only thing the DM needs to say is that the Dragons don't care. They're not the Chosen (hell, the Chosen aren't the Chosen) Blue Dragon: MY GOD! The Dragon Prophecy says a warforged in the Mournland will destroy Eberron tomorrow! Red Dragon: I'm quite certain you're wrong. Blue Dragon: What?! The stars clearly say so! Red Dragon: Tut tut but my TEA leaves say that adventurers will stop him. Blue Dragon: We shouldn't trust the future to adventurers! Red Dragon: Ah, but then we might guarantee it! Green Dragon: I believe that this incident won't happen for another ten thousand years actually due to the growth of the fungus here. Black Dragon: Bawlderdash! Obviously, according to the sayings of Sun-Wing from the 4000th year of Taisho, the true threat is in a 'Mourn' 'Land' that is lead by a 'Lord' 'of Blades' that is a metaphor for King Boranal in Breland whom is a great warrior and King of a weeping nation. Gold Dragon: Shouldn't we assume it refers to the Lord of Blades of the Mournlands that the humans name? Black Dragon: No doubt that was set up by the Lords of Dust to confuse us. Silver Dragon: I believe we should consult the Draconomicron to determine whether or not we should proceed? Bronze Dragon: The King James edition or the Vulgate? Silver Dragon: Vulgate. Bronze Dragon: But I like the King's Jame's version. *proceeds for two hundred years* Real help that bunch. Well if this hold true then that doesn't stop the dragons from forming a small party of dragons, not mentioning of course lots of adventurers, to combat the Lord of Blades. And lets be honest, if you saw someone possess so much power and unleash a power like that of the giants would you not fight them. Would you even take that type of chance? I mean the power to destroy is riviling the power the giants had, and the dragons would not allow them to possess so much power. So we can pretty much say Lord of Blades+Power of the Mourningland+Prophecy=Total destruction of the Lord of Blades, and fear lots and lots of fear.
Charles Phipps 10-17-05, 11:07 PM	Well if this hold true then that doesn't stop the dragons from forming a small party of dragons, not mentioning of course lots of adventurers, to combat the Lord of Blades. And lets be honest, if you saw someone possess so much power and unleash a power like that of the giants would you not fight them. Would you even take that type of chance? I mean the power to destroy is riviling the power the giants had, and the dragons would not allow them to possess so much power. So we can pretty much say Lord of Blades+Power of the Mourningland+Prophecy=Total destruction of the Lord of Blades, and fear lots and lots of fear. Except, they won't. Dragons will fight each other to stop each other from interferring just as surely as they would interfere. The Dragons destroying the giants and war against the elves is rare because it's unity. There will be Dragons who will AID the Lord of Blades just as surely. Why? Because maybe they believe the warforged will make a better race. The Dragons are not good. They're Lawful Neutral with the Prophecy being the will of the DM. Whatever the Dragons might do, the Lords of Dust might as well oppose.
KingNeo 10-17-05, 11:16 PM	True, and if you want a god in Eberron I can give you one. The DM, yes truly the DM he (or she) wields complete and absolute power. No one not even the Dragons can stop his power. But I wouldn't make the Dragons neutral, their not that, no one in Eberron is really. Thats one of the great joys of Eberron, the best and worst are among anyone, and have a choice in determining that.
Charles Phipps 10-17-05, 11:46 PM	True, and if you want a god in Eberron I can give you one. The DM, yes truly the DM he (or she) wields complete and absolute power. No one not even the Dragons can stop his power. But I wouldn't make the Dragons neutral, their not that, no one in Eberron is really. Thats one of the great joys of Eberron, the best and worst are among anyone, and have a choice in determining that. What I'm saying is that essentially there's MUD thing going on here. The Dragons are like the Vorlons and the Lords of Dust like the Shadows. They don't operate directly and if they do operate directly then essentially all hell has already broken loose. Dragons will not go up to the Mournland to kill the Lords of Blades, even if he has a doomsday weapon, they'll send PCs. Why? Because the Dragons are terrified of their own power and interfering with the Prophecy. It's thus better to send people who are a part of the Prophecy. They're like the Ultimate illuminati. The sooner people realize that the Dragons are rendered ALMOST but not entirely totally impotent by fate, the better they understand their role I think. The Chamber is the only group that will do active interference and even then it's incredibly subtle by human standards.
KingNeo 10-17-05, 11:59 PM	What I'm saying is that essentially there's MUD thing going on here. The Dragons are like the Vorlons and the Lords of Dust like the Shadows. They don't operate directly and if they do operate directly then essentially all hell has already broken loose. Dragons will not go up to the Mournland to kill the Lords of Blades, even if he has a doomsday weapon, they'll send PCs. Why? Because the Dragons are terrified of their own power and interfering with the Prophecy. It's thus better to send people who are a part of the Prophecy. They're like the Ultimate illuminati. The sooner people realize that the Dragons are rendered ALMOST but not entirely totally impotent by fate, the better they understand their role I think. The Chamber is the only group that will do active interference and even then it's incredibly subtle by human standards. Where in the quote did I say they would try to kill the Lord of Blades. I said that the DM is the true god of Eberron and that the Dragons are not actually neutral, as a whole by the way, but all alignments. So they may have plans about things dealing with the Prophecy, which might stop some dragons or help others. And that you were most likely right. That was what I meant. Was that bad?
KingNeo 10-18-05, 12:03 AM	sorry double post
Charles Phipps 10-18-05, 12:17 AM	Where in the quote did I say they would try to kill the Lord of Blades. I said that the DM is the true god of Eberron and that the Dragons are not actually neutral, as a whole by the way, but all alignments. So they may have plans about things dealing with the Prophecy, which might stop some dragons or help others. And that you were most likely right. That was what I meant. Was that bad? I was just throwing out my 100 cents. It's merely old data, pay it no mind. You did fine.
Hellcow 10-18-05, 12:47 AM	Dragons will fight each other to stop each other from interferring just as surely as they would interfere. The Dragons destroying the giants and war against the elves is rare because it's unity. Correct. And that's just the thing: the dragons are NOT united against the elves. All we know is that A group of dragons have been fighting the elves... and the fact that they have FAILED is very likely an indication that it's a far, far smaller percentage of the dragons than those that allied against the giants. And after all, the Vol situation occured because a group of dragons allied with the line of Vol. So there are dragons of all alignments, and there are struggles in Argonnessen that the outer world never knows about.
Tainted Mage 10-18-05, 01:01 AM	It's not my intention to nullify it. As I said, if you WANT there to be traditional gods in Eberron, go ahead. But I am saying that the single sentence from RoE does NOT nullify the statements given in the core Eberron books and by the original Eberron design team that the existence of the gods is a thing of mystery. There ARE forces out there - and one of them interacts with the Cabinet. But what is it? What is it really capable of? Is it possible that it is just the strength of their own faith? The Silver Flame IS effectively the Ori (at least this time we can prove that we weren't copying SG1, since we had our magic flame first!): it is a source of immense spiritual power created by a race of ascended beings, which can channel its collective might through its servants. But aren't the SG1 people always reminding us that the Ori AREN'T gods? And that's the point with the Traveler and the Cabinet. The clerics of the Traveler DO have access to a source of power, as shown by their ability to cast spells. But is this force a "god"? A powerful outsider? The collective will of a million worshippers? The faith of the cleric shaping the energy of the Ring of Syberis in the same way that a wizard uses formulas to alter reality? Any of these could be true, and from a day-to-day standpoint, they will all have the same impact on the world. We know the Cabinet gets prophetic warnings in times of trouble: but we don't know what sends them, only what they BELIEVE sends them. And Jancarius, of course the changeling icon means TM will disagree with me - after all, I said earlier that no member of the Cabinet would question his own faith. There are divine forces in Eberron, certainly. The point is that they are not the same sort of gods that you can find in other settings. They don't manifest physically. You can't interact with them without the interface of fiath and magic - and through that interface, it's impossible to know exactly what you are dealing with. Well, the powerful ones can. But you know the standard 7 HD rakshasa can't teleport, right? It's got the spell-casting power of a 7th level sorcerer, and its only supernatural abilities are detect thoughts and change shape. So they aren't as moble as, say, succubi. As I said, I'm not much of one to play as a cleric, or get along with one. So this all being said about the worshipped beings simply being divine or perhaps just very powerful- couldn't the same be said of the gods in the other D&D sections, that they're merely mortals that have ascended to a higher power? After all- they still can be wounded and killed. As to the dragons- I just don't seem them getting worked up about the LoB unless he interferes with the profecy or threatens them. As to the threatens the prophecy- wouldn't wiping out the humans possibly be a good thing for the dragons? They pretty much slaughter any Cataclysm Mage who gets powerful enough simply because they can't interpret what the Mage means. There's also resentment towards the Houses with the dragonmark, and the dragon scepters which makes for better use of the 'marks.
Hellcow 10-18-05, 01:19 AM	After all- they still can be wounded and killed. And that is exactly the point. In another setting, you can MEET a god. You can wound him. You can even destroy him. In Eberron, you can't. Whatever the force is that contacts the Cabinet, you'll never see statistics for it. You can't destroy it. You can only contact it through commune or divine channeling. People have believed in the Sovereigns since at least the Age of Giants - but Aureon has never appeared in the flesh to smack people around, and no planar traveler has every found any domain of the Sovereigns. In FR, the homes of the deities are known. They take avatars. There's no need to question faith, because it's hard to argue about Thor's existence when you can go have lunch with him. In Eberron, the presence of the deities is felt through the powers and visions they grant their followers - but that still leaves room to debate the source of those miracles.
aelryinth 10-18-05, 02:24 AM	Yeah, I know rakshasa can't teleport. However, we are talking the Lords of Dust, not the wanna-be Lords of Dust. I'm kinda assuming that Rakshasa Lord has 3 levels of sorceror, too!...or, if he's in the Mournland, an arcane item to remove VERY quickly from the place if he needs to run. I imagine they have sequestered a few toys that could do the job over the past million years... ==Aelryinth
Tainted Mage 10-18-05, 01:19 PM	And that is exactly the point. In another setting, you can MEET a god. You can wound him. You can even destroy him. In Eberron, you can't. Whatever the force is that contacts the Cabinet, you'll never see statistics for it. You can't destroy it. You can only contact it through commune or divine channeling. People have believed in the Sovereigns since at least the Age of Giants - but Aureon has never appeared in the flesh to smack people around, and no planar traveler has every found any domain of the Sovereigns. In FR, the homes of the deities are known. They take avatars. There's no need to question faith, because it's hard to argue about Thor's existence when you can go have lunch with him. In Eberron, the presence of the deities is felt through the powers and visions they grant their followers - but that still leaves room to debate the source of those miracles. That's the thing I'm trying to point out. Aren't the Eberron powers more like gods than the gods in other settings? After all, they seem to fit it much better. I mean- why would I worship someone who can be slain? If I was a low level NPC, does that mean I should worship the PCs simply because they're much stronger than me? Same idea for the worship of the "gods", Eberron is more mystical due to not seeing these forces and the contact they have with "them". More religious it seems. :eek:
Charles Phipps 10-18-05, 01:35 PM	After all, they seem to fit it much better. I mean- why would I worship someone who can be slain? Unlimited power, wealth, magic, and the possibility he'll kill you if you don't?
Sereno 10-18-05, 02:12 PM	Unlimited power, wealth, magic, and the possibility he'll kill you if you don't? Well, except for the "unlimited" part that can be true of anyone more powerful than ones own self. To a peasant, a 15th level PC would seem nearly godlike but they don't get worshipped as such. I agree with Tainted Mage in the sense the Eberron's gods are *really* gods and not just very-high-epic-level NPCs. It's one of the things that really appeals to me about the setting. And, likewise, a lot of this sort of arguing couldn't actually happen ON Eberron. Only we, players and DMs, know from reading the ECS that they powers that grant spells are mysterious and not a really powerful guy floating in the clouds. How would you even begin to convince a cleric of Boldrei that Boldrei doesn't "really"' exist when the cleric is casting Create Food and Water and Cure XXX Wounds spells for their followers? How would you even shake the faith of their followers?
Charles Phipps 10-18-05, 02:48 PM	Well, except for the "unlimited" part that can be true of anyone more powerful than ones own self. To a peasant, a 15th level PC would seem nearly godlike but they don't get worshipped as such. Actually, in eberron it's questionable that they wouldn't. Let's say tomorrow you find a guy that killed a hundred guys with a samurai sword, beside him is a guy who has the power to raise the dead (we'll assume that people DID raise the dead in the past of our world but these things are mythical or considered like faith healers), and another guy can do stuff like run up walls and disappear in direct sight. They then save the world from crazy terrorists whom possess equal amazing powers. I guarantee some people will deify them. PCs may not be Zeus or Apollo, but in the context of Eberron they might be Achilles or Hercules or Saint George.
Hellcow 10-18-05, 03:07 PM	That's the thing I'm trying to point out. Aren't the Eberron powers more like gods than the gods in other settings? After all, they seem to fit it much better. I mean- why would I worship someone who can be slain? If I was a low level NPC, does that mean I should worship the PCs simply because they're much stronger than me? Same idea for the worship of the "gods", Eberron is more mystical due to not seeing these forces and the contact they have with "them". More religious it seems. :eek: Actually, I completely agree with you, TM; perhaps we've just been arguing in circles. The point from the start WAS to make religion in Eberron more like religion in our world: a matter of faith, where people are convinced their gods exist, but where you can't just beat the god up. Yes, the people of Eberron have more proof in the form of miracles on tap - but our history is full of holy men and women who have supposedly performed miracles. But Eberron is a place where religion has great influence. Going back to the Cabinet, it doesn't matter WHAT the force that advises them is: what matters is that they DO get divine inspiration when times are dire, and this is one of the cornerstones of their faith. My only point all along is that whatever that force is, it's never going to personally appear and smack you around. Of course, that's what outsiders are for; in my opinion, there are many outsiders who worship the Sovereigns - even if THEY don't have lunch with the deities either - so you can have an Archon showing up to do what it perceives as the will of Dol Arrah.
Tainted Mage 10-18-05, 03:42 PM	Actually, I completely agree with you, TM; perhaps we've just been arguing in circles. The point from the start WAS to make religion in Eberron more like religion in our world: a matter of faith, where people are convinced their gods exist, but where you can't just beat the god up. Yes, the people of Eberron have more proof in the form of miracles on tap - but our history is full of holy men and women who have supposedly performed miracles. But Eberron is a place where religion has great influence. Going back to the Cabinet, it doesn't matter WHAT the force that advises them is: what matters is that they DO get divine inspiration when times are dire, and this is one of the cornerstones of their faith. My only point all along is that whatever that force is, it's never going to personally appear and smack you around. Of course, that's what outsiders are for; in my opinion, there are many outsiders who worship the Sovereigns - even if THEY don't have lunch with the deities either - so you can have an Archon showing up to do what it perceives as the will of Dol Arrah. Personally, I'd like to see the Silver Flame run around and try and put out the other religions. After all, they can actually see their power and it's not simply faith(though the rules and whatnot that guides the followers would be). Honestly, at least SOMEONE should have a group where "well, can you see your god?" goes on. Possibly even persecution of them. Also- have any of the groups gone after each other?(aside the good/bad 6) I'd think that'd happen a bit more- holy wars that is. We certainly do it enough. :rolleyes:
Hellcow 10-18-05, 03:52 PM	Personally, I'd like to see the Silver Flame run around and try and put out the other religions... Also- have any of the groups gone after each other? Followers of the Blood of Vol have certainly clashed with the Sovereign Host in the past. Thrane's hatred of Karrnath is largely fueled by the faith of the Silver Flame; the Flame opposes both the BoV and many of the worshippers of the Dark Six. But one of the key points about the Sovereign Host vs the Silver Flame is that they aren't contradictory religions. The Silver Flame may be "a god" - but it's not supposed to have created the world or anything like that. It is a force that empowers champions to fight supernatural evil and protect the innocent. Unless the Sovereign Host is threatening the innocent, there's no need for violence between them. Tira Miron WAS a paladin of Dol Arrah, and I think followers of Dol Arrah, Aureon, and the Silver Flame can easily work together - even if they will also fight each other, as they did during the war.
Tainted Mage 10-18-05, 04:26 PM	Rather than the god/goddess title, let's just refer to the worshipped as divine. ;) All this dragon talk though, has got me thinking- What if the dragons saw the increase in population with dragonmarks and Cataclysm Mages as a threat to the Prophecy. Do you think they'd react to that with violence, trying to get rid of them to protect the Prophecy? Oh, and I don't see the dragons wiping out all humans at the least- they're too damn impossible to kill since they can infest, erm live!, most anywhere under varied conditions.
aelryinth 10-18-05, 04:33 PM	Rather than the god/goddess title, let's just refer to the worshipped as divine. ;) All this dragon talk though, has got me thinking- What if the dragons saw the increase in population with dragonmarks and Cataclysm Mages as a threat to the Prophecy. Do you think they'd react to that with violence, trying to get rid of them to protect the Prophecy? Oh, and I don't see the dragons wiping out all humans at the least- they're too damn impossible to kill since they can infest, erm live!, most anywhere under varied conditions. So can any of the races. It's hardly a trait unique to humans, now. Actually, orcs and dwarves and especially gnomes, would be the survivors, with their natural Con bonuses and gnomes being Small can really survive. ==Aelryinth
Tainted Mage 10-18-05, 05:25 PM	So can any of the races. It's hardly a trait unique to humans, now. Actually, orcs and dwarves and especially gnomes, would be the survivors, with their natural Con bonuses and gnomes being Small can really survive. ==Aelryinth Sure, but from the books, the dwarves and gnomes(or ever) aren't exactally forest people. ;) And orcs certainly aren't tolerated in most areas that have a large population of civilized peoples. Survival isn't simply being built a certain way, it's also how well can they get along with others and how adaptive are they. Most races tend to be centralized on a few major areas, unlike humans who simply pop up where ever room is.
aelryinth 10-18-05, 05:29 PM	We are assuming the dragons are hunting them and everyone to ground. Gnomes actually love forests, hills and mountains, orcs live anywhere, and Dwarves can too. Preference isn't the same as surviving. Orcs live in their ancestral lands. They'll 'get along' if they have to. Humans don't have an edge anymore in that area...getting along is now the realm of the Korovar. ==Aelryinth
Jancarius 10-19-05, 02:25 AM	Backing up a second... where is a Cataclysm Mage and where can I read about it?
Jagermeister 10-19-05, 09:15 AM	Backing up a second... where is a Cataclysm Mage and where can I read about it? Cataclysm Mage is a PrC from the Eberron Explorer's Handbook.
Edymnion 10-19-05, 01:19 PM	Whatever the force is that contacts the Cabinet, you'll never see statistics for it.At least not until WotC needs to pimp another book. ;) You know, like the Cataclysm Mage that can manifest the Mark of Death. Or all of the artificers in Sharn having heard of Merrix's "super secret" creation forge. Or the halfling with the no-questions-asked alter of ressurection...
Charles Phipps 10-19-05, 03:02 PM	At least not until WotC needs to pimp another book. ;) You know, like the Cataclysm Mage that can manifest the Mark of Death. Or all of the artificers in Sharn having heard of Merrix's "super secret" creation forge. Or the halfling with the no-questions-asked alter of ressurection... No offense but the House Jorasco ressurection tables ARE a good idea. It's a wonderful source of conflict where there's these outrageous prices for ressurecting someone and the halflings just gloat over it. It really allows me to show the repulsive side of the House of Healing. As for Super Secret Creation Forges, no offense but if Aliens were found tomorrow at Area 51...it would make more sense. It's a tinfoil hat theory that might have had some basis in fact but more likely was just made up. He also is plotting to overthrow the kingdom and has a chocolate factory run by halflings.
Jagermeister 10-19-05, 03:13 PM	He also is plotting to overthrow the kingdom and has a chocolate factory run by halflings. And Jaela totally comes to visit the factory after making Cardinal Krozen go on an international witch hunt for a golden ticket, and then has the nerve to constantly complain, whilst begging wretchedly to Krozen and Merrix for free samples of everything the Halflings make.
pilias_simber 10-19-05, 03:48 PM	I think that part of the intention of Eberron is that yes indeed, Eberron would be screwed, if it wasn't for your PCs, who will eventually save the world from these great threats to the world.