On Technology and Eberron. (a long post) [Archive] - Wizards Community

On Technology and Eberron. (a long post) [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
zambuka
02-01-05, 11:16 PM Every now and then a thread will start up asking about guns in Eberron. Sometimes the discussion goes on to question why, with the vast expanse of time presented, the current races are no more technologically advanced than they are.

My answer to this is simple.. Dragons.

For the first countless millions of years the dragons ruled. Every one of the dragons possessed magical ability, even at a young age, so there was no need to develop technology. Their magic did everything and so much more than technology could.

After the demons were pushed back, the giants rose in their civilisation. They were taught magic by the dragons, but not everyone could use it. This drove the giants to delve into technology, aided by the magic of the dragons. They must have come a long, long way with technology in their 40,000 years of civilisation. This technology became advanced enough, and so interwoven with magic that the two became indistinguishable. The schema used to develop the massive forges and the mighty warforged suggest just a glimpse of the technomagical achievements of the giant civilisation.

When the Quori came the giants eventually resorted to this powerful mix of magic and technology and came close to destroying the world. They shattered their continent and sent shockwaves around the planet. When the giants tried again the dragons, protecting the recovering world, destroyed the last vestiges of the Giant’s civilisation.

The dragons were wary of any future use of technology and so chose to guide the younger races in their development. The problem was that these younger races were, for the most part, not inherently magical. It probably took 4 or 5 thousand years of tutoring to allow the humans and goblinoids to master even the most basic magics with any reliability, and all this time the dragons were discouraging technology. But, the dragons had to allow for a limited amount of technology, to allow these lesser races the capability to manufacture the tools required for becoming a magical civilisation.

From the ruins of the Giant empire came the elves. They were quite adept with magic but so steeped in tradition that teaching them new things became quite difficult, if not impossible, and the drow were just plain and simply not interested in learning anything from the dragons and thankfully had no interest in rediscovering the secrets of the giants. The dwarfs only really became interested after their migration to Khorvaire.

In Khorvaire the dragons found the Goblin races. They were easy to teach but overall were a bit of a disappointment; they were mostly concerned with the baser things in life, eating, breading and taking whatever their neighbour had. Some of the goblinoids took the dragon’s lessons to heart and slowly pulled together the Dhakaani empire. It was too little too late as the empire was crushed by the invasion by the Daelkyr.

To the east the humans arose, a much tamer race, easy to direct, but very lacking in magical aptitude. It was a long and arduous task to teach these humans the magic they needed. Constantly culling any major technological advancements slowly put the humans in a position where technology was not seen as a solution to anything but the most basic problem.

The race that posed the most potential for developing technology was the gnomes. But they quickly developed some basic magical abilities that meant they did not need to discover even the most basic of technological inventions. Prestidigitation is a marvellous little spell.

So over the last 40,000 years or so the dragons have slowly taught magic to the world while secretly discouraging, and sometimes downright sabotaging, any technology. This is why the current races are equal to about late 18th century without gunpowder.

Sarlona is held back by the advancement of psionics and the massive breeding programs of the inspired to develop empty vessels and the kalashtar.

Now today, after tens of thousands of years, the humans have finally reached a state of magical capability that they can start delivering magic directly to the people. The more powerful artificers and mages now had sufficient knowledge that they could understand some of the work of the giants but didn’t have the technological know how to delve into the more dangerous areas. And because they now had sufficient knowledge of magic that technology was seen as a week solution, they would not tend to investigate.

But all this scheming and planning has backfired. Even magic on its own is a very dangerous thing, as seen by the destruction of Cyre. Now the dragons are probably leaving things alone, no longer taking an active role, just sitting back and watching for any danger signs. The races in Khorvaire are now free to follow their own path and ,because of the massive investment in magic, technology will take a back seat and not develop anywhere near as fast as it could.

The dragon marks are a direct result of the constant teaching, occasional eugenics program and the lack of any real technological advancement.

Just as a final note. When I am saying dragons, I don’t mean all dragons. Very few would probably be aware of this ancient conspiracy, probably a dozen ancients and one or 2 new recruits. It would be a secret society of dragons buried deep within Argonessan.

Contrived and long winded I know, it also rewrites a little bit of the history of the world. I feel that it is not outside of the feel of Eberron to have this ancient conspiracy to prevent technological advancement and teach magic to races that are generally extraordinarily stubborn or just plain and simply lacking in aptitude.
Straylight
02-01-05, 11:54 PM That is probably the best explanation for the state of things in Eberron I've seen yet...

except for one detail:

The civilizations of Khorvaire are anything but medieval. Medieval-level technology didn't include many of the things that the people of Khorvaire take for granted: their cities are larger, safer (in terms of environment, not crime) and cleaner, their ships -even the mundane ones- are faster, there are street lights, banks, police, professionally-maintained roads, and many other conveniences that didn't exist in our world until the 18th century or beyond.

...And that's just the technology side of things, to speak nothing of culture. The cultures of Khorvaire aren't medieval at all: they consider education a right and not a privelage, most citizens can read and write, theaters and stages put on plays, musicals, and concerts, citizens in most places live under codified sets of laws that more closely resemble 20th/21st century American law than anything else, and the concept of opportunity (as American Democracy defines it) exists across the social strata of the world.

These are not the traits of a world stuck in the middle ages.

These are the traits of a world that hangs somewhere between Victorian-age Europe and Modern-age America.

Many people think that magic replaces technology in Eberron -I disagree. It's always seemed to me that magic has evolved alongside technology in Eberron, to the point where the two become indistinguishable. Why use magic when you can use technology? Why use technology when you can use magic?

Why use either when you can use both?
zambuka
02-02-05, 12:20 AM I tend to think of the era as more 18th/19th century, changes made to reflect this.

I used medieval probably because most of the posts I read questioning the technological level tend to refer to it as medieval and I wrote it in about a half an hour during post lunch torpor.

I agree that magic and technology go hand in hand but by the timeline given they both should be far more advanced, that is why I came up with this idea.

The future, after Cyre will be a totally different matter.
zambuka
02-02-05, 12:34 AM Replying to my own post again with some further thoughts.

But all this scheming and planning has backfired. Even magic on its own is a very dangerous thing, as seen by the destruction of Cyre. Now the dragons are probably leaving things alone, no longer taking an active role, just sitting back and watching for any danger signs. The races in Khorvaire are now free to follow their own path and ,because of the massive investment in magic, technology will take a back seat and not develop anywhere near as fast as it could.

The fact that such a catastrophic thing can occur with only a fraction of knowledge that the giants held suggests that perhaps not only should technology and magic develop side by side but they also act to temper each other. Without one the other starts to become overwhelming and unstable to the point of being uncontrolable.

Magic may need technology in order to advance any further just as technology would need magic to go beyond a certain point. With that you wouldn't need to develop technology like weapons and steam engines when magic is at the point it now exists. Instead you need to concentrate your technology on new materials, new chemicals, new ways of thinking and putting it all together with the magical knowledge you have. You need to research things like aerodynamics, pressure and temperature. You need to research and develop new manufacturing technologies to manufacture the little magical things that make life easier for everyone.

The giants knew this. Their destruction was not unstable and uncontrolable magics and technology but the deliberate use and control of a majorly destructive force.
aberrant80
02-02-05, 01:11 AM great summary. Thanks!
Marshall Stone
02-02-05, 02:31 AM I find your idea rather imaginative and intriguing but I have a different opinion.

First how do you define technology? According to dictionary.com Technology is:
The application of science, especially to industrial or commercial objectives.
The scientific method and material used to achieve a commercial or industrial objective.
Anthropology. The body of knowledge available to a society that is of use in fashioning implements, practicing manual arts and skills, and extracting or collecting materials.

Now why did the wheel, measurements, plows, wind mills, elevators, etc. all come about? Simply put, very simpy put actually, because thier was a need for them. I would suggest that technology advances as the need for it becomes more and more paramount.
Take for example an Airplane. Such a device, while extremely useful, wouldn't have been necessary in say, Greece before being taken over by the Romans.
The need for such devices AND the innovative mind that desires to make such devices better, leading to other devices, is what causes an evolution in technology.

Now take a world that has science, with it's tedious scientific method, but that also has Magic.
What is the term for the application of MAGIC, especially to Industrial or Commerical objectives?
In a world with Magic, Magic is used to achieve a commerical or industrial objective because it's easier and faster than working it out with science.

So why bother with science when you can use magic? Well the short answer is because not everyone has access or can afford "the magics". So thier is some technological devemlopment but it's stunted by the Magics that are there and so the NEED for technology is not as paramount.

Why develop guns, with it's mechanical parts that jam, it's need for explosive "fuel", it's terrible accuracy, it's single use, when you can make eteranl wands of magic missles, with it's perfect accuracy, 2 shots/day, and no jamming?
zambuka
02-02-05, 07:47 PM The need for such devices AND the innovative mind that desires to make such devices better, leading to other devices, is what causes an evolution in technology.

Now take a world that has science, with it's tedious scientific method, but that also has Magic.
What is the term for the application of MAGIC, especially to Industrial or Commerical objectives?
In a world with Magic, Magic is used to achieve a commerical or industrial objective because it's easier and faster than working it out with science.

Thats all true. The problem is not the lack of technology but the lack of innovation in general. Yes there are a few things, the Lightning rail (around before the Last War), the everbright lanterns (although only mass produced recently are still a fairly old idea), the sky coaches of sharn (pretty much around since sharn was settled) and a few other things.

Things develop really slowly in Eberron. Khorvaire has been at its current level of development, at least magically, for longer than it took our civilisation to go from steam trains to personal computers. Where is all the innovation? not just the technological innovation but the mass produced magical kind. There is not a lack of innovative minds, or the need for the devices so why is technology, or even magicaly enhanced technology still very lacking?

It may be easier to cast a spell that instantly plows and plants a field but the powers required to do it would be more than what the average farmer could afford and still be quite uneconomical for the wealthy farmer. It would be cheaper and easier to create a plowing/planting machine and then magically animate it. You need here technological prowess to create such a device, the materials and joints, before you can magically enhance and animate it. There is a need for such things, and certainly not a lack of innovative people in Eberron and you may find more than a few plowing the fields in Aundair. But where is all the spinoff technology? all the other little purely technological gizmos and gadgets that come from the knowhow for building this thing.

Take the speaking stones. Yes House Sivis has the monopoly on their use at the moment, but with their economical prowess it would be much better to hold a monopoly on creating a similar device that anyone, not just a dragonmarked gnome, could use. If magic was easier and quicker then why have these things not been mass produced for the domestic market? After all they have been around for a long time and like the phone in our modern society it would become unthinkable to be without one.

It appears that it is not just technological innovation that is stunted on Eberron but all innovation in general. What is going on there? Why, after all these tens of thousands of years have the people who don't have direct access to magic not developed some alternative? Sure once again the magic may stunt the growth of technological innovation but over the kind of time frame of the Dhakaani empire? Thats stretching the suspension of disbelief a little further than the idea of a great and grand conspiracy. Even over the time frame of the Galifar empire it is stretching the sense of disbelief a bit far.

That is part of why I had the idea of a grand conspiracy. If the humanoid races had difficulty with magic (explaining the need for spell books for arcane and the focus of a god for divine) development of magic would be a slow and time consuming task, explaining away the lack of innovation with magic over the last few tens of thousands of years. The lack of technological innovation needed a more interventionist explaination.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
zambuka 02-01-05, 11:16 PM	Every now and then a thread will start up asking about guns in Eberron. Sometimes the discussion goes on to question why, with the vast expanse of time presented, the current races are no more technologically advanced than they are. My answer to this is simple.. Dragons. For the first countless millions of years the dragons ruled. Every one of the dragons possessed magical ability, even at a young age, so there was no need to develop technology. Their magic did everything and so much more than technology could. After the demons were pushed back, the giants rose in their civilisation. They were taught magic by the dragons, but not everyone could use it. This drove the giants to delve into technology, aided by the magic of the dragons. They must have come a long, long way with technology in their 40,000 years of civilisation. This technology became advanced enough, and so interwoven with magic that the two became indistinguishable. The schema used to develop the massive forges and the mighty warforged suggest just a glimpse of the technomagical achievements of the giant civilisation. When the Quori came the giants eventually resorted to this powerful mix of magic and technology and came close to destroying the world. They shattered their continent and sent shockwaves around the planet. When the giants tried again the dragons, protecting the recovering world, destroyed the last vestiges of the Giant’s civilisation. The dragons were wary of any future use of technology and so chose to guide the younger races in their development. The problem was that these younger races were, for the most part, not inherently magical. It probably took 4 or 5 thousand years of tutoring to allow the humans and goblinoids to master even the most basic magics with any reliability, and all this time the dragons were discouraging technology. But, the dragons had to allow for a limited amount of technology, to allow these lesser races the capability to manufacture the tools required for becoming a magical civilisation. From the ruins of the Giant empire came the elves. They were quite adept with magic but so steeped in tradition that teaching them new things became quite difficult, if not impossible, and the drow were just plain and simply not interested in learning anything from the dragons and thankfully had no interest in rediscovering the secrets of the giants. The dwarfs only really became interested after their migration to Khorvaire. In Khorvaire the dragons found the Goblin races. They were easy to teach but overall were a bit of a disappointment; they were mostly concerned with the baser things in life, eating, breading and taking whatever their neighbour had. Some of the goblinoids took the dragon’s lessons to heart and slowly pulled together the Dhakaani empire. It was too little too late as the empire was crushed by the invasion by the Daelkyr. To the east the humans arose, a much tamer race, easy to direct, but very lacking in magical aptitude. It was a long and arduous task to teach these humans the magic they needed. Constantly culling any major technological advancements slowly put the humans in a position where technology was not seen as a solution to anything but the most basic problem. The race that posed the most potential for developing technology was the gnomes. But they quickly developed some basic magical abilities that meant they did not need to discover even the most basic of technological inventions. Prestidigitation is a marvellous little spell. So over the last 40,000 years or so the dragons have slowly taught magic to the world while secretly discouraging, and sometimes downright sabotaging, any technology. This is why the current races are equal to about late 18th century without gunpowder. Sarlona is held back by the advancement of psionics and the massive breeding programs of the inspired to develop empty vessels and the kalashtar. Now today, after tens of thousands of years, the humans have finally reached a state of magical capability that they can start delivering magic directly to the people. The more powerful artificers and mages now had sufficient knowledge that they could understand some of the work of the giants but didn’t have the technological know how to delve into the more dangerous areas. And because they now had sufficient knowledge of magic that technology was seen as a week solution, they would not tend to investigate. But all this scheming and planning has backfired. Even magic on its own is a very dangerous thing, as seen by the destruction of Cyre. Now the dragons are probably leaving things alone, no longer taking an active role, just sitting back and watching for any danger signs. The races in Khorvaire are now free to follow their own path and ,because of the massive investment in magic, technology will take a back seat and not develop anywhere near as fast as it could. The dragon marks are a direct result of the constant teaching, occasional eugenics program and the lack of any real technological advancement. Just as a final note. When I am saying dragons, I don’t mean all dragons. Very few would probably be aware of this ancient conspiracy, probably a dozen ancients and one or 2 new recruits. It would be a secret society of dragons buried deep within Argonessan. Contrived and long winded I know, it also rewrites a little bit of the history of the world. I feel that it is not outside of the feel of Eberron to have this ancient conspiracy to prevent technological advancement and teach magic to races that are generally extraordinarily stubborn or just plain and simply lacking in aptitude.
Straylight 02-01-05, 11:54 PM	That is probably the best explanation for the state of things in Eberron I've seen yet... except for one detail: The civilizations of Khorvaire are anything but medieval. Medieval-level technology didn't include many of the things that the people of Khorvaire take for granted: their cities are larger, safer (in terms of environment, not crime) and cleaner, their ships -even the mundane ones- are faster, there are street lights, banks, police, professionally-maintained roads, and many other conveniences that didn't exist in our world until the 18th century or beyond. ...And that's just the technology side of things, to speak nothing of culture. The cultures of Khorvaire aren't medieval at all: they consider education a right and not a privelage, most citizens can read and write, theaters and stages put on plays, musicals, and concerts, citizens in most places live under codified sets of laws that more closely resemble 20th/21st century American law than anything else, and the concept of opportunity (as American Democracy defines it) exists across the social strata of the world. These are not the traits of a world stuck in the middle ages. These are the traits of a world that hangs somewhere between Victorian-age Europe and Modern-age America. Many people think that magic replaces technology in Eberron -I disagree. It's always seemed to me that magic has evolved alongside technology in Eberron, to the point where the two become indistinguishable. Why use magic when you can use technology? Why use technology when you can use magic? Why use either when you can use both?
zambuka 02-02-05, 12:20 AM	I tend to think of the era as more 18th/19th century, changes made to reflect this. I used medieval probably because most of the posts I read questioning the technological level tend to refer to it as medieval and I wrote it in about a half an hour during post lunch torpor. I agree that magic and technology go hand in hand but by the timeline given they both should be far more advanced, that is why I came up with this idea. The future, after Cyre will be a totally different matter.
zambuka 02-02-05, 12:34 AM	Replying to my own post again with some further thoughts. But all this scheming and planning has backfired. Even magic on its own is a very dangerous thing, as seen by the destruction of Cyre. Now the dragons are probably leaving things alone, no longer taking an active role, just sitting back and watching for any danger signs. The races in Khorvaire are now free to follow their own path and ,because of the massive investment in magic, technology will take a back seat and not develop anywhere near as fast as it could. The fact that such a catastrophic thing can occur with only a fraction of knowledge that the giants held suggests that perhaps not only should technology and magic develop side by side but they also act to temper each other. Without one the other starts to become overwhelming and unstable to the point of being uncontrolable. Magic may need technology in order to advance any further just as technology would need magic to go beyond a certain point. With that you wouldn't need to develop technology like weapons and steam engines when magic is at the point it now exists. Instead you need to concentrate your technology on new materials, new chemicals, new ways of thinking and putting it all together with the magical knowledge you have. You need to research things like aerodynamics, pressure and temperature. You need to research and develop new manufacturing technologies to manufacture the little magical things that make life easier for everyone. The giants knew this. Their destruction was not unstable and uncontrolable magics and technology but the deliberate use and control of a majorly destructive force.
aberrant80 02-02-05, 01:11 AM	great summary. Thanks!
Marshall Stone 02-02-05, 02:31 AM	I find your idea rather imaginative and intriguing but I have a different opinion. First how do you define technology? According to dictionary.com Technology is: The application of science, especially to industrial or commercial objectives. The scientific method and material used to achieve a commercial or industrial objective. Anthropology. The body of knowledge available to a society that is of use in fashioning implements, practicing manual arts and skills, and extracting or collecting materials. Now why did the wheel, measurements, plows, wind mills, elevators, etc. all come about? Simply put, very simpy put actually, because thier was a need for them. I would suggest that technology advances as the need for it becomes more and more paramount. Take for example an Airplane. Such a device, while extremely useful, wouldn't have been necessary in say, Greece before being taken over by the Romans. The need for such devices AND the innovative mind that desires to make such devices better, leading to other devices, is what causes an evolution in technology. Now take a world that has science, with it's tedious scientific method, but that also has Magic. What is the term for the application of MAGIC, especially to Industrial or Commerical objectives? In a world with Magic, Magic is used to achieve a commerical or industrial objective because it's easier and faster than working it out with science. So why bother with science when you can use magic? Well the short answer is because not everyone has access or can afford "the magics". So thier is some technological devemlopment but it's stunted by the Magics that are there and so the NEED for technology is not as paramount. Why develop guns, with it's mechanical parts that jam, it's need for explosive "fuel", it's terrible accuracy, it's single use, when you can make eteranl wands of magic missles, with it's perfect accuracy, 2 shots/day, and no jamming?
zambuka 02-02-05, 07:47 PM	The need for such devices AND the innovative mind that desires to make such devices better, leading to other devices, is what causes an evolution in technology. Now take a world that has science, with it's tedious scientific method, but that also has Magic. What is the term for the application of MAGIC, especially to Industrial or Commerical objectives? In a world with Magic, Magic is used to achieve a commerical or industrial objective because it's easier and faster than working it out with science. Thats all true. The problem is not the lack of technology but the lack of innovation in general. Yes there are a few things, the Lightning rail (around before the Last War), the everbright lanterns (although only mass produced recently are still a fairly old idea), the sky coaches of sharn (pretty much around since sharn was settled) and a few other things. Things develop really slowly in Eberron. Khorvaire has been at its current level of development, at least magically, for longer than it took our civilisation to go from steam trains to personal computers. Where is all the innovation? not just the technological innovation but the mass produced magical kind. There is not a lack of innovative minds, or the need for the devices so why is technology, or even magicaly enhanced technology still very lacking? It may be easier to cast a spell that instantly plows and plants a field but the powers required to do it would be more than what the average farmer could afford and still be quite uneconomical for the wealthy farmer. It would be cheaper and easier to create a plowing/planting machine and then magically animate it. You need here technological prowess to create such a device, the materials and joints, before you can magically enhance and animate it. There is a need for such things, and certainly not a lack of innovative people in Eberron and you may find more than a few plowing the fields in Aundair. But where is all the spinoff technology? all the other little purely technological gizmos and gadgets that come from the knowhow for building this thing. Take the speaking stones. Yes House Sivis has the monopoly on their use at the moment, but with their economical prowess it would be much better to hold a monopoly on creating a similar device that anyone, not just a dragonmarked gnome, could use. If magic was easier and quicker then why have these things not been mass produced for the domestic market? After all they have been around for a long time and like the phone in our modern society it would become unthinkable to be without one. It appears that it is not just technological innovation that is stunted on Eberron but all innovation in general. What is going on there? Why, after all these tens of thousands of years have the people who don't have direct access to magic not developed some alternative? Sure once again the magic may stunt the growth of technological innovation but over the kind of time frame of the Dhakaani empire? Thats stretching the suspension of disbelief a little further than the idea of a great and grand conspiracy. Even over the time frame of the Galifar empire it is stretching the sense of disbelief a bit far. That is part of why I had the idea of a grand conspiracy. If the humanoid races had difficulty with magic (explaining the need for spell books for arcane and the focus of a god for divine) development of magic would be a slow and time consuming task, explaining away the lack of innovation with magic over the last few tens of thousands of years. The lack of technological innovation needed a more interventionist explaination.