Post/Author/DateTime	Post
The Necromancer King 02-17-06, 07:16 AM	So I was reading through the Player's Guide (which rocks; they should have come out with this book ten minutes after they put out the ECS), and was looking specifically at the religions of the world. This book is, thus far, the most descriptive of each of the faiths, so I read each of the entries on the Silver Flame, the Blood of Vol, the Sovereign Host and the Dark Six and Khyber. I think I might be missing a major religion or two... Anyway, all of the religions have a different view of what happens when you die (one of the most fundamental questions a religion needs to answer). ~Followers of the Flame believe that you are bound to the Flame itself, physically (puritans) or spiritually (radiants). No word on whether or not that hurts. ~The Blood of Vol knows that souls go to Dollurh (sic?), and wish to avoid that by turning themselves into undead. ~The Host knows you go to Dollurh, and want you to live to your fullest in the one lifetime you have (talk about depressing...). ~Worshippers of the Six are devoured by the Keeper, or hoarded in his realm (which might not suck, depending on what his realm is like...). ~ Worshippers of the Dragon Below hope to avoid the whole death thing by turning into mind flayers... I'm sorry, mind flayers?!? ~ If you're cool enough, the Undying Court will turn you into one of the good undead... The Average Joe commoner has absolutely nothing to look forward to in death. Most of them are going to spend an eternity wallowing in their own grief. There's no Elysian fields in Dollurh? No place of peace and happiness where the Good-but-not-Heroic go? There is no Valhalla in the legends of the Host? Am I the only one who finds this strange? I mean, people tend to build religions to answer the unanswerable in... Well, in comfortable ways. In every real-world religion, there is a heaven of some sort, and it is usually attainable by ordinary folk. There are rules, sure, and if you break them, then there's a punishment, but there is also a way out. The hindu have reincarnation; how you acted in your last life, determines how cool your new one is. The monotheists have divine forgiveness; even if you screw up, as long as you're genuinely sorry for it, no hell for you. Why is there none of this in Eberron? Why do you have to make the choice between eternal despair and becomming a mind-flayer? It's a bit twisted...
Setherial 02-17-06, 07:47 AM	I'm getting my copy of the Players guide today so I haven't seen it yet but MINDFLAYERS ??? wtf ? How did they come up with that, I thought they were aliens from Xoriat and aside the fact that there are more beneath the surface then above it I don't see the connecting between Khyber and Mindflayers ? anyway, as for Dollurh doesn't the ECS say it is a place of aphathy as well, the longer you are there the less you care, sort of like going numb. It's not that bad, you just have a nice big fat rest for all ethernity without worries what so ever. I can see why the blood would make that sound worse then it is to gain followers but that's that... As for eberron religeons lacking the hope our earthly religeons have might come from knowledge of the truth and trying to live with that. No need believing all is going to be better after life if you know it is not.
Korhal_IV 02-17-06, 01:26 PM	I don't recall the mind flayer bit, but the cultists are insane anyway, so they might. Many faiths in real life didn't address the concept of a happy afterlife. The Greek and Roman pantheons, for instance, had a concept of Hades that is very similar to Dolurrh, where you just linger in eternity. The early Israelite culture had no concept of resurrection or heaven/hell; that was added on circa 60 A.D. with the rise of the rabbinic sect and (in parallel development) the proto-Christians. In fact, the greatest hero of the Hebrew Bible (Abraham) is never promised heaven - just that his descendants will be many and prosperous. That never bugged the Israelites. Finally, note that while we all *assume* you wither away and vanish in Dolurrh, that is not necessarily the conception shared by the residents of Eberron. I recall reading a Dragonshard or book that noted that some followers believe Dolurrh is just a "cleansing" stage, and after disappearing from Dolurrh a spirit moves to [insert afterlife of choice]. E.g., think of Dolurrh as Heaven's waiting room.
Missekat 02-17-06, 01:38 PM	Is it depressing to live and not be sure to have some kind of reward afterwards? Man.. that explains why I'm always so down ;-) I'm atheist and believe that there is nothing when you die. Your flame just flickers and puff.. there is no more you. No essens, no soul, no lttle electronic flickers in your brain to make you think. Just.. nothing. That hasn't made me depressed about my life, and I'm pretty sure that all others who have the same belief, (and there's probably a nice heap of those in these godless, heathen, science infested days - to use the word of my grandmother), are ok with it too. Like Setherial wrote: No point in trying to make something up to sound nice and comforting, if you really deep down believe it isn't nice. just my :twocents:
green_yawgmoth 02-17-06, 01:51 PM	If it bothers you that badly, make an anti-dolurrh plane where everything is sunshine, lolipops and rainbows where all the good people go. I personally like the idea that people all go to the plane of "meh". Or maybe the really good people turn into angels, the really evil ones turn into demons/devils, and neutral people really should have made up their mind. http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v91/yawgmoth/kittyjig.gif
DragonWatcher 02-17-06, 01:54 PM	Besides all that, there is something motivating about deadlines. If you know that you only have the here-and-now to really enjoy, well... it can be a bit more motivating than to think that you'll have all eternity to enjoy. I'm Buddhist, and believe in reincarnation... but it's not as clean-cut a concept as most people might think. I don't believe that I will be back in some other form, but instead that every existence draws from the same pool of energy (or souls, if you prefer). The person who is writing this right now isn't gonna be back in 1000 years, but once the drop of energy that is me, returns to that "ocean" it will eventually be reused. Confused? If so, don't sweat it... if not, well... I'm impressed since I know people who took years to understand that concept. Either way though, it's just a concept. I can only be sure that I have the time allotted me here and now to accomplish what I want, so I had better make the best efforts to succeed. I imagine that it's a similar mindset for Joe Commoner in Eberron. :)
Solarious 02-17-06, 02:59 PM	I dislike the part about the Soverign Host openly saying that there is nothing beyond Dollurh. I simply use Hellcow's interpetation that there is a world beyond this one where the gods reside... where none are allowed to peer and it's sanctity unviolated by the crass nature of our mundane world. I reject your reality and subsitute my own! On the other hand, Dragon Belowers of the Daelkyr wish to see Xoriat and things beyond imagining. They're madmen, for crying out loud, of course they want stupid things after death. ;) The real Dragon Belowers who worship Khyber instead wish to become one with it and allow the trapped Progenitor to burst free of Eberron's shackles, to feast ravenously, and Keith's wrath at his mutilated world shall be both indescriminate an... Err... :angelhide Followers of the Six share the same beliefs with the Host. Commentary and lynch mobs welcome. :P
Just another user 02-17-06, 04:08 PM	The Average Joe commoner has absolutely nothing to look forward to in death. Most of them are going to spend an eternity wallowing in their own grief. There's no Elysian fields in Dollurh? No place of peace and happiness where the Good-but-not-Heroic go? There is no Valhalla in the legends of the Host? Am I the only one who finds this strange? Indeed, one could almost think that to die is a bad thing ;) I mean, people tend to build religions to answer the unanswerable in... Well, in comfortable ways. In every real-world religion, there is a heaven of some sort, and it is usually attainable by ordinary folk. Sorry, but I think you are wrong. on the top of my head the only religions with a "happy place" after death that I can think of are the christians and the islam. Ancient religions usually had a limbo, a place very Dolurrh like, maybe with a "happy place" but that was not for everyone but only for an "elite" of some kind (usually the bravest fighters get to party with the gods or something like that) but not for ordinary folks. The thruth is that Eberron have the more "historically accurate" approach to mortality and religions about all the D&D (and many nonD&D) settings.
dang 02-19-06, 12:56 AM	Is it depressing to live and not be sure to have some kind of reward afterwards? Man.. that explains why I'm always so down ;-) i think the depressing part is actually the eternal waiting, watched over by demons, while one's emotions and memories are slowly leeched away. but it depends what yer into, i guess. Necromancer, i share your discomfort, and have dealt with it this way: reincarnation. dolurrh is a washing machine which spins away the dirt and allows the pure soul to be reborn in some form. in my eberron, only some sects of the sovereign host, the highest-ups of other religions, and the general undying ct actually believe this, but it remains universally true. silver flame: dedicating oneself to the silver flame can allow one to join it, but only for exceptional individuals. the rest recycle to try again. sovereign host/dark six: similar to silver flame, but one becomes one with an individual deity... the bestest of the best could potentially ascend during life to usurp the motive will of the deity, as in some eastern religions. undying ct: the undying ct is a fusion of the transcendant elven souls and those who achieve corporeal ascendance in deathlessness. it uses the power of Irian to manifest in some areas of the prime material plane. (Irian zones.) the duality of this "deity" is the reason that the valenar and aereni channel the same divine powers. elves try over in subsequent lives to ascend by one avenue or the other (although proponents of either may not realize both avenues even exist). because the elves have two tracks, one of which is arguably faster, the elven "river of souls" will eventually dry up... but by then, it will reach a threshold of power that will culminate in a planar incursion from Irian, which will either destroy the prime material plane or fuse with it (which is why the dragons are so p.o.ed.) the blood of vol and cult of the dragon are merely trying to cheat death, in my opinion. so that's how i roll.
dang 02-19-06, 01:08 AM	Indeed, one could almost think that to die is a bad thing ;) Sorry, but I think you are wrong. on the top of my head the only religions with a "happy place" after death that I can think of are the christians and the islam. hinduism has heavens and hells, but they aren't for eternity, only until this universe ends and begins again (which has already happened quite a few times). some reformed jewish traditions also now incorporate positive afterlives. the aztecs had a heaven for warriors and women who died in childbirth. the Germanic pagans (this includes the scandinavians) had valhalla. an eternity of battle isn't my idea of a good time, but to each her own. but you're essentially correct, a "general admission" heaven is mainly for christians and muslims. however, i think in D&D, which puts as much or more importance on mages and priests as warriors, it may make more sense to have a broader view.
Zedium 02-19-06, 03:49 AM	The thing why almost all religions have a negative outview on death is because Dolluhr is real. Although the average commoner can't prove it, proof of the plane can be found, researchers with enough ranks in Knowledge(the planes) can conclude there is indeed a place out there where the dead go to and become shades. And then there are the times when the plane manifests itself on the world itself and the dead start to do things the dead shouldn't do in general, which certainly says something is out there. Religions can't change that at least, it is a fact. They know you are going to end up in some bleak place when you die (independant of what comes after that bleak place), and only the most exceptional people might end up somewhere else which is marginly better. And that is ok actually. Sure your exsistence might fade in the end, but if you are nothing but a mere shade, you probably won't even remember how you got there in the first place. Beats eternal torture, fire, brimstone and all that if you ask me. But if you end up in Doluhr anyway, what use do the gods have you ask? They are there to make sure justice prevails (seeing how both good and bad people go to the same place after they die) and the bad people get punished in life, and they are there to make your life comfy. In the case of the Host people make a little prayer to the gods from time to time to make a certain task easier, or to leave them the hell alone in the case of the Dark Six, and the silver flame is there to go after evil itself. And most other religions are out there to make your life a little bit easier (often by making that of others harder). If you don't like dying though, there are only 2 decent ways out. Either hope to be faithful to the Blood of Vol and become undead, or to be and elf and perform some great deed and become a deathless. And from a roleplaying point of view. In contrary to other DnD worlds you don't want to die. If you die, you are basically, well, dead, not living on in some happy place having a good time with the local hot looking planetar. This makes death a bad thing and adds to the mood. Eberron is noir afterall, a place where bad things happen to good people. Also, because there is less of a punishment after death for being evil, more people are corrupt and have dark plans. (As a final note, concerning those Mind Flayers, I never saw that in the book, but note that the Cults of the Dragon below are a varied bunch, and only a few of them would think they could become immortal by becoming a mind flayer. In short, they are a few orcs short of a horde, but it still makes a fun storyline.)
Just another user 02-19-06, 08:43 AM	but you're essentially correct, a "general admission" heaven is mainly for christians and muslims. however, i think in D&D, which puts as much or more importance on mages and priests as warriors, it may make more sense to have a broader view. Yes, but when you build a cosmology you shouldn't make it thinking to the 20 level characters, you should make it for the 1st level commoners. (A 20 level anything will always find a way to cheat death anyway.)
Ryuu_Tenshi 02-19-06, 02:37 PM	My DM's solution to this was to state that while most souls go to Dolluruh, souls of exceptional faith or with strong wills go to other planes of their choice. for instance, Valenar elves might join their ancestors on Irian or er... that foresty plane whose name I can't recall. Or, as another example, our monk. Our monk is of a very, very small cult dedicated to the worship and service of the Solars on Serenia (or whatever the plane of air is called). When he dies, his soul is going to go reside with them on that plane. ... as to the cults of the dragon below undergoing centerimorphis, that's one of the most awesome ideas I've heard and gives at least some explinatoin as to why the mind flayers didnt' just die out. It doesn't explain what they lived on in Xoriat though.
Edymnion 02-19-06, 05:00 PM	The ancient Egyptians believed in an idealized version of this life as an afterlife. The Mesopetamians believed in an idea of a heaven, and is actually the source of a great deal of modern concepts of heaven and angelic beings (wings, halos, harps, all of that stuff was originally Mesopetamian, not Judeo-Christian). Most "modern" religions (as in the major world religions that are still practiced) have a concept of a positive afterlife experience in one form or another. But yeah, I happen to like the fact that dying sucks in Eberron. It means that you don't do it! And that it makes a heck of a lot more sense for necromancers and the like to try and lich themselves, and for the undying, because the afterlife sucks. The only shot you're going to get at happiness is right here on Eberron, so you had better try and get it while you can!