Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Steven Snyder 10-01-04, 09:29 AM	I was going over the rules for returning undead to the realm of the living and I noted that only the Ressurection Spell is capable of doing this...with the exception of Miracle/Wish. But something occured to me... King Kaius III and Vol are two of the most powerful individuals in Eberron that are in need of these spells, yet they don't seem to have access to them. Kaius seeks to overcome his blood bond with Vol, the easiest way to do this is to return to mortality. Vol wants to propgate her Dragonmark, being able to produce offspring would be the simplest way to do it, but being a Lich doesn't lend much to fertility. So returning her to the land of the living would enable her dragonmark to work again and allow her to have children, thus spreading her dragonmark. But it seems neither of these people have access to anyone with this spell, this says something about the world as a whole. If the king of one of the most powerful nations and the Queen of the Undead can't get a Ressurection spell, how do the PC's?
The White Sorcerer 10-01-04, 09:34 AM	But it seems neither of these people have access to anyone with this spell, this says something about the world as a whole. If the king of one of the most powerful nations and the Queen of the Undead can't get a Ressurection spell, how do the PC's? The PCs will most likely have to be capable of such great feats of divine power by themselves. The only NPC I can think of who can do resurrection is Jaela Daran, and she's only likely to help the great heroes of the Flame.
fizzbang 10-01-04, 09:49 AM	King Kaius III and Vol are two of the most powerful individuals in Eberron that are in need of these spells, yet they don't seem to have access to them. ... But it seems neither of these people have access to anyone with this spell, this says something about the world as a whole. If the king of one of the most powerful nations and the Queen of the Undead can't get a Ressurection spell, how do the PC's? Powerful spells like resurrection and the like are definitely very rare in Eberron, and those few who can cast them (Jaela and Oalian, I think) aren't very favorably inclined to help either of them. Of course, there may be others, but the possibility of them getting this sort of benefit sounds like it could make for a very interesting campaign in itself. On the other hand, being a vampire or a lich provides tremendous benefits for them in their various actions. It's quite possible that both Kaius and Vol are caught in a difficult situation where they rely on the power they get from their undead status, even while they hate it. Perhaps they're pursuing alternate ways around them: does Kaius hope to overcome the weaknesses of his condition, perhaps while keeping their strength (like aiming for the "Master Vampire" prestige class)? Does Vol have some other technique for reintroducing the dragonmark of death? As always, the intrigue of the Eberron setting makes for a lot of different ways to view everything. High powered spells are definitely very rare, but they aren't always the only way to do something.
Darkest90 10-01-04, 11:21 PM	Whenever something like this happens, when I can't provide the certain spell with either a high-level spellcaster (because Eberron is nearly devoid of them) or a reasonably powerful member of a dragonmark house, I always make it into an adventure and turn it into an artifact. Maybe there is a hidden chamber deep below a swamp (Q'barra, Aereneal, Xen'drik?) where an ancient order of sorcerers, set against the forces of the Undying Court and Aereneal, created a device to return undead to life. While their colonies in (swamp place) have dwindled, the ancient order still continues as a small organization devoted to safeguarding the ancient device, until one can prove himself to use it against Aereneal. Might be a cool adventure. Toss in the Blood of Vol trying to battle their way to find it, a demonlord trying to obtain it to harness its energy in a different way and realign Dolurrh so that he can finish a dark practice, or maybe the Silver Flame wants it to return an ancient Silver Flame zealot to power by raising him as an undead and then returning him to life. Eh? Eh? - Darkest90
ThanisKartaleon 10-02-04, 06:14 AM	Clerics in Eberron may not need to match their deity in alignment, but that does not mean they can cast without any faith. Kaius lacks the devotion to become a cleric, much less 13th level as a cleric, which is the requisite for learning resurrection. Vol might have the devotion, but has chosen to pursue the arcane arts. Even if she were to gain levels as a cleric, she'd need to be a 260th lvl cleric to resurrect herself at this point. ... Yeah. Personally I'd bump her up to 25th lvl or so, after all she's been a lich for the past 2,600 years. But that's about it, and it'd be all wizard lvls or a similar PrC.
Laskaw 10-02-04, 08:47 AM	Keep in mind though, that in order to be resurrected you have to be destroyed. That means not only to you have to find someone able to cast Resurrection, but they have to find someone who they could trust to actually return them from unliving to living. I personally doubt Vol would trust anyone too much, and Kaius would probably have problems with... well, everyone that's not Karranthi (and even then, some of its own). Though who knows? Maybe Vol or the Emerald Claw is in the shadows of the church of the Silver Flame or Soverign Host, or someplace with a large House Jorasco presence (don't forget the Altars of Resurrection!), slowly warping the mind of one of its young prodigies and transforming him through magical and non-magical techniques into her loyal thrall. She constantly tests his loyalty, waiting for the day that he has the power and absolute obedience to bring her back from the dead without question or alternate motive.
Steven Snyder 10-02-04, 09:22 AM	Clerics in Eberron may not need to match their deity in alignment, but that does not mean they can cast without any faith. Kaius lacks the devotion to become a cleric, much less 13th level as a cleric, which is the requisite for learning resurrection. I think you misunderstand my point. I was not intending that Kaius or Vol 'become a cleric' but that they are very powerful people with a lot of sway in the world and a lot of subjects beneath them. But even Kaius, who rules an entire kingdom in Khovaire, can't find a cleric of enough power to help him. So if Kaius himself can't find a cleric that can/will cast Ressurection on him, how would a group of low-level PC's do in finding a cleric to cast Raise Dead or higher? Yes it is a lower level spell, but the character's influence isn't nearly as high. Vol might have the devotion, but has chosen to pursue the arcane arts. Even if she were to gain levels as a cleric, she'd need to be a 260th lvl cleric to resurrect herself at this point. No, Vol hasn't been "dead" all that time she has been "undead". The difference between dead and undead is that an undead creature's soul is with the body (more or less) but a dead creature's soul is in Dolurhh getting wiped away. Dead has a very specific defination found in the PH, one that doesn't apply to either Vol or Kaius.
Just another user 10-02-04, 09:52 AM	Kaius at the moment needs the advantages his vampiric condition give him. If he would come back to live then someone could kill him... definitevely, plus he have some long term projects than he could not complete within a human life. Last, what about the vampires that he created and are actually under his control? what would happen to them if he turn alive? Vol's situation is similiar but with an ulterior complication. Vol is the leader of a cult that see undeath as the final blessing. What would her follower think if she give up on it for any reason?
ThanisKartaleon 10-02-04, 12:39 PM	Whoops, didn't think this posted last night.
Angelion 10-02-04, 01:37 PM	Well resurection isn't -too- rare, it's not like 1 or 2 persons only can cast it. Dosn't mark of healing hiers of sibyris gain resurection as ability? And I think there's a magical altar made with the help of sibyris shard, that empowers the mark of healing and can resurect people. Or maybe it was raise dead...
Alexius D'Cannith 10-02-04, 07:07 PM	its not so much rare as it is rare to find a cleric willing to do it, Ressurection is a bit harsh on the component costs, Olian btw as a druid can do Reincarnation which is of no good to Vol at all and a dangerous risk for Kaius Then as stated they both have advantages in being their current status, near invulnerability, immortality, gribbly powers of doom, Kaius dosnt want to be human again because for the trouble of sunlight and Vol it has its definate perks, hence instead of ordering a cleric to ressurect him (causing lots of questions) he is investing in Sun Cream and someone to deal with Vol or help him break free, and as noted even if vol wanted to give up being a 4000 year old being of arcane might, her religion might crusade her for heresy, let there be clerics, let them ressurect just make it an effort getting to the point where they will willingly do that and its not as simple as handing over components
mistakeagian 10-02-04, 08:24 PM	The idea that ressurection is so rare fits right into Eberron, I think. As Keith has said in other threads Clerics are a rare breed. Most faithful clergy are EXPERTS and SOME are adepts. But to find a CLeric you would have to look long and hard. And consider the depopulation of clerics during the last war. What kind of clergy do you think would be right on the front lines standing with the men and generals? The expert who can't heal or fight, or the cleric who truly embodies faith? In Eberron the PCs are supposed to be the break from the norm. So if they need a ressurection they would have to do a LOT of work for it, BUT if anyone on Eberron could get it the PCs could. Maybe there is one old hermit in the mountains or a lost item as was suggested earlier. Maybe they could try and petition a Dragon who is purported to have the ability to ressurect, there are a million ways you could go about this.
JBW 10-03-04, 12:09 AM	Somewhat OT, but... While I go with the "most clergy are Experts", I don't like how the Adept fits into the mix. I would rather stay consistant than to try and explain how the "lowly Adept" can do some things the "mighty Cleric" cannot. I would rather see NPC clergy members that multiclass Expert with Cleric, typically at 2:1 on the levels. This works fine for Humans and Half-Elves. Most other races would suffer a 20% exp penalty, but that's OK for "filler" NPCs. Jay
Doctor X 10-03-04, 12:30 AM	Well resurection isn't -too- rare, it's not like 1 or 2 persons only can cast it. Dosn't mark of healing hiers of sibyris gain resurection as ability? And I think there's a magical altar made with the help of sibyris shard, that empowers the mark of healing and can resurect people. Or maybe it was raise dead... No, heirs of the Siberys Mark of Healing only get Mass Heal, not Ressurection. Also, Siberys Heirs are obscenely rare, so it wouldn't make that much of a difference, anyway. Since most clergy are mere experts or adepts, true clerics are very rare, and among those few that exist, still less are powerful enough to implement even Raise Dead. Most clerics that ARE powerful enough to do this are in Aerenal; devout followers of the Undying Court. These guys don't generally throw spells around to anyone, even if the person had all the money in the world to offer. They only use this stuff on those who are worthy of it... Mostly just Aereni elves. They generally won't care if some naive human from Khorvaire ends up dead. You can bet your life that these guys aren't going to want to help Kaius or Vol out. Kaius isn't worthy, and is likely too proud to ask them, and as for Vol... Her very existence is an insult both to their faith and their race. As for the Altar of Ressurection... that's probably one of the very few ways to get ressurection in Eberron. House Jorasco most likely controls all of these. However, actually carrying out the process is nearly as expensive as the altar itself, and to top it all off, it requires an heir of the Greater Mark of Healing at least, and there aren't very many of those.
Doctor X 10-03-04, 12:38 AM	Somewhat OT, but... While I go with the "most clergy are Experts", I don't like how the Adept fits into the mix. I would rather stay consistant than to try and explain how the "lowly Adept" can do some things the "mighty Cleric" cannot. I would rather see NPC clergy members that multiclass Expert with Cleric, typically at 2:1 on the levels. This works fine for Humans and Half-Elves. Most other races would suffer a 20% exp penalty, but that's OK for "filler" NPCs. Jay Uh... that wouldn't work. The whole point of using adept instead of cleric is so the ability to actually channel positive or negative energy (turn or rebuke undead) is rare. While I do think it is stupid that adepts can cast some spells that clerics never get... I don't think it'll be an issue. In fact, I'm thinking about taking out all the religous adept's exclusively arcane/domain spells (Burning Hands, etc.) to balance out the addition of the access to a single domain that the ECS suggests.
JBW 10-03-04, 12:45 AM	The whole point of using adept instead of cleric is so the ability to actually channel positive or negative energy (turn or rebuke undead) is rare. I don't see this as being a big deal. If the 8th-level clergyman has ALL of the abilities of a 3rd-level Cleric (the other 5 levels being Expert) I don't see this challenging the status of the PCs or the exceptional NPCs. Jay
Just another user 10-03-04, 11:45 AM	And another thing about the resurrection. For Kaius to do that would mean admit that he is a vampire, that's a definite no-no
Doctor X 10-03-04, 03:16 PM	I don't see this as being a big deal. If the 8th-level clergyman has ALL of the abilities of a 3rd-level Cleric (the other 5 levels being Expert) I don't see this challenging the status of the PCs or the exceptional NPCs. Channeling is a big deal. It not only turns or rebukes undead... but there's also the issue of spontaneous casting of Inflict or Cure spells. It may not make that much of a difference combat-wise, but it IS one of the things that defines the cleric class overall. Giving that ability to one or two clergymen in each major temple kind of takes away the "elite" status of Clerics, which is a no-no in Eberron. All the PC classes are supposed to be relatively rare, with abilities above and beyond the norm, so even a 1st-level PC is remarkable. That's why Wizards and Artificers are mostly replaced with Magewrights, Fighters with Warriors, and Clerics with Experts and variant Adepts.
Gurv 10-04-04, 09:19 PM	See, I think a major point is being overlooked here, one that I had to explain to my players. It seems very simple when looked at in this way: Player Characters have levels in PC classes. Non-Player Characters have levels in NPC classes. Obviously, exceptions exists, but thats what they are. Exceptions. Player Characters are Heroes! A key element of the Eberron setting is that the player characters are remarkable individuals, possessed of uncommon skills and potential. This advantage is reflected both by action points, which most NPCs do not possess, and by the versatility of the PC classes. When the campaign begins, the PCs' potential may not be fully realized. A 2nd-level wizard is not a world shaking force, but the fact that he is pursuing the difficult field of arcane study is impressive in its own right; it provides him with opportunities and causes potential patrons to seek his help. Many villains will be the equals of the player characters, and some will be more powerful, highlighting the world's need for heroes. Eberron is not a world where powerful NPCs typically show up to save the day; by the time the player characters reach the middle levels, they will be their own best allies. --Eberron Campaign Setting, pg 250 The point of this is that high level NPCs are rare, and high level NPCs with PC levels are even more rare. The most important thing you can remember is that when there is a question about what can be done, or what is available, the answer is always the same as "what would be best for the story?". If you don't believe me, ask Keith. So the question of whether the players can be resurrected is answered by the question of whether the DM thinks they should be. And if the answer is yes, then someone to do it can be provided? Why can't Vol or Kaius be brought back? Perhaps no one is willing to do it. Perhaps they are not willing to allow it (as mentioned above). Perhaps there is another reason, and one of the two undead seek a way around it, an investigation that draws the players into a plot involving a vile ritual, an ancient eldritch machine, and a manifest zone to Irian at the height of Mabar's coterminous phase... If you don't know the answer, neither do the players...and if it isn't in print, then make up something resembling an adventure.
Alexius D'Cannith 10-05-04, 09:17 AM	in my opinion the major nations probably have one or two clerics capable of raise dead (not nessercarily ressurection) and sharn probably has one or two but due to the limited number of practicioners of the art and the fact that house jorasco major facilities (im guessing sharn and one or two other major outposts) can do it the clerics that are around put silly demands such as 1)Must be of the faith 2)Must pay all the component costs 3)Must do silly hard quest for the good of church with no other promise of reward, 4)And still owe the church a big favour for undisclosed purpose 5)Costs extra when Dolurrh is coterminous due to added risk This is a natural defence mechanism to prevent them being inundated with requests for bringing back the dead, and also gives good triggers for adventures, if they party want the dead brought back then Cleric X of Faith Y will oblige if you just go to the dungeon of doom and.......... Or perhaps a wealthy noble will pay the party to do the quest for him so he can have his wife/child/person who owes him a million gp brought back, he can pay the bills but needs someone to do the suicide mission. You can make it hard to get hold of without making it that only one person can do it, have 30 people in Khorvaire can do it and make the problem convincing them