Post/Author/DateTime	Post
scissors 08-31-05, 07:14 PM	Cross Posted to Magic, Deities, and Cosmology. What I'm asking for here is a well thought out opinion or advice. What I don't need is someone who is hell-bent on keeping the setting as written, or someone who thinks DM's shouldn't mess around with what's in the books. I don't mean to sound brash, but I'm trying to cut down any responses with "That's a bad idea because it's not in the book" agendas. That said, as a whole I really don't think elves, and by this I mean Valenar and Khorvaire elves have sufficient religious backgrounds. The way I picture the Valenar, worshipping the Sovereign Host just doesn't seem to fit... so I was thinking about adding Corellon Larathian in as an elf-only religion. There are numerous gods that span over different settings, such as Corellon, Lolth, and Gruumsh, so I don't really see a problem here. In my Eberron, I run the Khorvaire elves and to a lesser extent, Valenar elves how elves are described in Races of the Wild. Aerenal elves seem alien in their own right, and I had a hard time applying them to anything in RoW. In a smaller degree, I've also considered giving the gods and religion more sway than is stated in the ECS. I like worlds that have a strong focus on religion, and in all honesty, it's the only thing that I miss from leaving running the Realms to Eberron. What do you think?
Arcane Guyver 08-31-05, 07:26 PM	I really don't see the Valenar being that religious. If anything, they worship their ancestors through story and song. That said, I could totally see a version of Corellon Larethian as a legendary elven warrior worthy of name-invoking. The name does roll off the tongue rather easily... As far as city elves go...they've pretty much adapted to the five nations-style of thinking and worship (like all the other core races). EDIT: As far as religions go...I'm not sure what you mean by religions having more sway. Thrane is a pretty hardcore theocracy. The other religions can be as important to your version of Eberron as you want. If you REALLY want gods walking the earth, remember that the Sovereign Host are often depicted as dragons...
scissors 08-31-05, 07:33 PM	I really don't see the Valenar being that religious. If anything, they worship their ancestors through story and song. That said, I could totally see a version of Corellon Larethian as a legendary elven warrior worthy of name-invoking. The name does roll off the tongue rather easily... As far as city elves go...they've pretty much adapted to the five nations-style of thinking and worship (like all the other core races). EDIT: As far as religions go...I'm not sure what you mean by religions having more sway. Thrane is a pretty hardcore theocracy. The other religions can be as important to your version of Eberron as you want. If you REALLY want gods walking the earth, remember that the Sovereign Host are often depicted as dragons... Good call. That's what I meant by gods having more sway. If not physically walking the earth... at LEAST giving them the authority of whether or not their clerics receive spells and abilities. As far as Khorvaire elves are concerned, I wasn't necessarily speaking of city, elves.. but rather elves who live in the forests of Khorvaire. I suppose I just wanted a bit more definition of a force behind them, much like the drving force behind Aerenal.
zambuka 08-31-05, 09:18 PM	In a smaller degree, I've also considered giving the gods and religion more sway than is stated in the ECS. I like worlds that have a strong focus on religion, and in all honesty, it's the only thing that I miss from leaving running the Realms to Eberron. What do you think? You seem to have missed something important about Eberron here. Religions are very very important part of the Eberron setting. The silver flame, the blood of Vol, the cults of the dragon below, the Host and the Six, Radiant idol cults etc so on and so forth. Religion holds a very heavy sway in Eberron, more so than other settings, and to a degree they dominate the setting. What Eberron does do is it makes the religion more important than the god, or whether the god actually exists or not. It doesn't mean that gods do not exist, or can't exist, or that there aren't powerful deity like beings who demand worship. What it means is that these beings are not the controlling influence in religions, they don't grant spells, they don't deny powers, so you don't have to worry about who the real power behind the cult of the Mouldy Cheese really is. In other settings you need to think about whether it is a new deity or one of the existing deities granting the powers, in Eberron the powers of the worshippers are gained purely through their belief in the existance of the Mouldy Cheese as a deity. That said it is easy enough to add the religions you want. Corellon Larathian could be a particularly revered Deathless, either real (which is what you seem to want) or simply from legend. The religion is the same as it is elsewhere and is simply a subset of the greater Undying Court pantheon, as could Lolth for a bit of a twist. You can fit any elven god you really want into the Undying Court pantheon. Gruumsh could be an alternate name for one of the dark six, or maybe even a Lord of Dust remembered from ancient times. It would otherwise work the same, give the clerics the same powers, have similar myths surrounding him etc. Once again you can fit almost any religion you want into Eberron. The halflings could have their own heroes who are venerated, or maybe their religions are based around mythical Dinosaurs. The thing about Eberron is that you can have whatever religions you really want without any modification on the worshipping side of things. I do think however that it does spoil the flavour of the setting if you have these gods as beings who actually grant or deny powers like in other settings, the reason for this is that, in Eberron, the religion is more important than the actual god that is worshipped. But once again that doesn't mean these beings can't or don't have some physical form (see silver flame, cults of the radient idol, Undying Court, Cults of the dragon below etc.).
UnkemptSage 08-31-05, 09:56 PM	Amen :heehee
Rake 08-31-05, 11:21 PM	Uh, woah there? Unless I am very mistaken, the Valenar elves practice ancestor worship. At least the vast, vast majority of them, do.
Hellcow 09-01-05, 12:39 AM	What I don't need is someone who is hell-bent on keeping the setting as written Understood. You're free to do whatever you want. The way I picture the Valenar, worshipping the Sovereign Host just doesn't seem to fit... You're right. It doesn't. Which is why the Tairnadal follow the Keepers of the Past, as explained in this dragonshard. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041011a) The Tairnadal revere their heroic ancestors. Each elf believes that he has a bond to a particular ancestor, and that through his actions he can effectively become an avatar of that ancestor. Again, you can change whatever you want. But IMO, if you want Corellon among the Valenar, the simplest way to do it is simply to say that Corellon is one of greatest heroes of the Valenar, and has a bond to the greatest number of Valenar warriors in the present day. I like worlds that have a strong focus on religion, and in all honesty, it's the only thing that I miss from leaving running the Realms to Eberron. Like Zambuka says, for me, religion is a very important part of the campaign. The distancing of gods was intended to make faith a more important part of the world: to allow people to have very different beliefs about the same gods, without the gods actually coming down to earth to say "These folks are right, those ones are wrong." But the Church of the Silver Flame and Blood of Vol are both very active forces in the world, the struggle between the kalashtar and Dreaming Dark is at its heart religious, and the position of the Undying Court as the only incarnate "gods" gives Aerenal a very special place in the world. Likewise, religion is what drove the Valenar to Khorvaire in the first place, and what fuels their continued aggression: for them, war is a religious duty. So, in my campaign, religion is a very important part of the world - but it's driven by people's faith in their religion, as opposed to the active meddling of gods themselves. But again, I think you should do what you want to do - and I think Corellon would make a fine elven ancestor.
Edymnion 09-01-05, 12:58 AM	Yup, religion is incredibly important, and downright oppressive at times in this setting. Much of the history that makes it what it is centers around the religions of the setting, more so than the Realms ever did. Its just that the gods are not walking around browbeating people into worshipping them here. All of the power and prestige has been shifted onto actual people and organizations, things the DM can actually use in the game without sounding hacknied. After all, which sounds more like a lousy DM that has no idea what he is doing? "The keeper of the silver flame says you have to get this item back for her." or "Moradin himself appears in front of you and says he wants you to get this item for him."? If the god wants something done, why doesn't he do it himself? Don't confuse lack of overt godly power as meaning that religion in Eberron is less "there" than it is in other settings. If anything, Eberron is the MOST religion heavy setting the game has ever seen.
scissors 09-04-05, 03:48 PM	Now that I've had a chance to think on it a bit I realize a drastic change in the way religion worked is not what I wanted. After zambuka's and Keith's explanation, I fell better informed now and realize the way it is will fit nicely with what I thought I was missing. Again, you can change whatever you want. But IMO, if you want Corellon among the Valenar, the simplest way to do it is simply to say that Corellon is one of greatest heroes of the Valenar, and has a bond to the greatest number of Valenar warriors in the present day. This is a very good idea, and one I intend to implement. By the way, the valenar are probably my favorite sub-race of Eberron, so thanks for the clarification. Also another note worthy of mentioning, I just finished reading City of Towers ( Dreaming Dark I) for the second time and it has inspired me to write my own campaign, beginning with the first 5 levels in Sharn, as opposed to running Age of Worms right off the bat as I intended. While still new to the setting compared to the rest of you, I feel I have a tighter grasp on things since reading the book and I've also begun saving the links to dragonshards on my delicious.com. Thanks for the advice again. -scissors
a_psh 09-04-05, 04:58 PM	An interesting thing to consider... if Corellon is an elven ancestor, how do you deal with his hermaphroditic nature (Corellon as a god is said to depict the features of all elves, and has a sort of mixed masculine/feminine look)? One angle, of course, is to make the original elf Corellon a hermaphrodite... such beings do occur biologically from time to time. Another one is to make Corellon simultaneously one of the most revered and most mysterious ancestors... so many legends have grown up around him/her that even his/her gender has been forgotten or disputed. Oh, and I think the Gruusmh eye story can be fairly nicely adapted to Corellon battling a particularly mighty giant or dragon (probably named something other than Gruumsh). The preserved eye makes an interesting relic for a Valenar quest, certainly.
cerberuspuppy 09-04-05, 06:00 PM	Part of Eberron's unique flavor is the religions. It is interesting that the racial dieties- Corellon, Gruumsh, and Moradin in particular, are not represented, and I can understand if you feel the lack of them. These three have shown up in just about every setting, so it's not a matter of the Realms or Greyhawk (at least not specifically) intruding. Still, it's best to look at the setting the way it is first, and really think about why it is that way. Me personally, I would consider including the racial dieties- the afreorementioned plus Yondalla, but not any others. Even then, I'm not so sure. I don't know the setting well enough to make that decision.
scissors 09-06-05, 08:52 PM	Well I had only really wanted to add Corellon... as he's always been a staple favorite of mine. Frankly, the idea of making him a legendary champion of the Valenar intrigues me like none other. I had no initial intention off adding Gruumsh, leaving the story of Corellon and Gruumsh out... and I have never even thought on Yondalla or any other deities. I only mentioned Gruumsh and Lolth as examples of cross-setting gods. I like to alter things about settings, in my view it's a lot of the fun in DM'ing. Instead of creating my own setting, I just would rather use Mr. Baker's brilliant ideas and infuse a tiny bit of my own. I don't really think you need to study the ECS before you feel like you can utilize it.
scissors 09-06-05, 08:59 PM	An interesting thing to consider... if Corellon is an elven ancestor, how do you deal with his hermaphroditic nature (Corellon as a god is said to depict the features of all elves, and has a sort of mixed masculine/feminine look)? Hadn't thought of this until now... but see below. One angle, of course, is to make the original elf Corellon a hermaphrodite... such beings do occur biologically from time to time. I don't think I can grasp that idea readily. It doesn't seem to make a click with the legendary hero aspect. I think I'll leave the hermaphrodite-ness to the lizard folk. Another one is to make Corellon simultaneously one of the most revered and most mysterious ancestors... so many legends have grown up around him/her that even his/her gender has been forgotten or disputed. . In that case, I don't think a straight cross over is what I should have in mind. I am not considering of making him the same Corellon of the Realms and Greyhawk, but something better suited to Eberron himself. I may even change the name, now that I have the idea on it... I'm a long ways off from beginning another campaign though, and I have ample time to think about it. I may tie his story into the campaign I'm writing at the moment.. "The Wake of the Four Kings" ( don't worry.. not REAL kings... just a quad of lich who believed they should be. :D )
a_psh 09-07-05, 03:14 AM	Err, "androgynous nature" would've been the better term above. Yeah, I don't see that much trouble in making Corellon simply male (or simply female). I wouldn't include Gruumsh (especially if Corellon is an ancient Valenar hero), but I do like the business with the eye. Just insert a suitable monster (giant, dragon, whatever).
Setherial 09-07-05, 03:54 AM	I like the idea that most of the Gods worshiped by the commen religeons (Dark Six and Souvern Host) were actually Dragons that once existed or in fact still exist. Ofcourse these Dragons themselves care little that they've spawned a religeon at one time or another (most likely by showing off in their youth, something they are not particalary proud of now) as it is out of their hands anyway. As with religeon in real life, it feeds on itself and not on the Gods behind it. It has a life of its own. This idea could lead to some adventures as the players get involved with a historian who believes he found evidence of a Dragon with the same name as one of the Gods of the Host or the Six. The historian believes the God and the Dragon to be the same, this leading to god knows what (maybe a witchhunt for the head of this heretic historian by religeous fanatics).