Opinion on Pulp [Archive] - Wizards Community

Opinion on Pulp [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
TinManFan
02-24-05, 09:08 PM Ok. I'm a semi-longtime gamer, 2nd time Dm and I'm doing Ebberron. Now, at the start, I been struggling to get the pulpy feel to the world down. It de-volved into regular D&D. Evil Undead making BBEG Wiz, Evil Cult worshiping a Kracko-Lich Fiend of Devotion, bar fights and all. But lately I've been trying to add some mystery to it.

The captain of one of the district's guard was killed and his head was left on the doorstop. After a few speak w/ deads and some fights with a huge AC cleric, they found his body and noticed that it's been dead almost as long as they've known "Him". I'm planning on webbing this out into a Changling or Transmuter type conspiracey, maybe have the BBEG get ****** at them and all. But I'm asking, is this pulpy enough for the world? The one reason my guys decided to do Ebberron was the different feel, and I want to give them that. Any ideas and suggestions would be great.

Thanx
Zalaz Mavi
02-24-05, 10:52 PM As far as the Noir genre of pulp, two things come to mind. First, there is no such thing as altruism or sincerity. So, anyone who is helping or hindering your PCs in their investigation of the dead guard is do so because it furthers an agenda. The party's "ally" is only manipulating things to turn out in their favor, and so forth.
The second is that the pulp detectives were a reaction against the "mathematical" detectives created by Doyle, Christie, etc. (collect enough clues, and voila! everything adds up). The Big Sleep by Chandler is a great example of this; no matter how carefully you go over the book, you'll never be able to figure out who the murderer is. The idea was that human beings aren't always rational in their actions, and therefore motive can't always be determined by rational means. Using your example: a corrupt guardsman A is being blackmailed by corrupt guardsman B; A hires a low-life to kill B; A changes his mind out of fear that B's death will lead to the revelation of A's corruption, but is too late; to divert attention elsewhere, A decapitates B's corpse to make it look like a cult killing or maniac slaying; the PCs are brought in to investigate, A does everything he can to "assist"; meanwhile the low-life is now blackmailing A; low-life A sends low-life B who owes him a big favor to kill somebody close to A, to scare more money out of A and send the message that A isn't untouchable; so on and so forth. Eventually the plot will get so murky and convoluted, that it won't matter what really happened, only that the PCs find a way to put things working quietly again.
Really the trick to pulp is when things start feeling like they're slowing down, throw a twist in the plot or goons at the PCs. Keep it moving fast...
Thorgrip
02-25-05, 10:25 AM You could have the decapitated guardsman be an intelligent undead, such as a vampire, who has been trying to live a good life despite his nature. Perhaps some overzealous Paladin of the Silver Flame murdered him simply because he was undead. You then have a tricky, Eberron-esque plot resolution where the PCs either take the side of the "good" undead or the "bad" paladin.
fizzbang
02-25-05, 11:24 AM Zalaz, this is definitely one of the better descriptions of pulp and noir that I've seen. Bravo!

I feel it's important to remind folks that pulp and noir aren't the same thing, though. The big sticking point tends to be when it comes to corruption:

In Pulp, the heroes are usually pretty heroic, and there are usually one or two people they can wholeheartedly trust. Villains and others may be terribly corrupt, but there's always some ally or sidekick who has a heart of gold and will always be there to assist, even if they are a jerk about it. It's what sets the heroes apart from the villains. A good heart shines through even the roughest exterior, just as a blackheart darkens everything around it.

In Noir, virtually everyone and everything is corrupt, to a degree. No one's motives can be entirely trusted, nothing is as it seems, and even the most virtuous person has some dark secret or vice somewhere in their past. Even staunch allies or PCs may have situations where their loyalty and heroism is compromised, and the line between hero and villain can become very blurry. Even the greatest heart has a touch of darkness in it, against which it always struggles.

Now, either of these styles works quite well in Eberron, and you may find it works to occasionally shift between the two, to keep your players guessing. But in general, it's easier for the Pulp feel to slide towards the "old-fashioned" D&D mentality of "good vs evil", while the Noir feel tends to throw more old-fashioned D&D players for a loop.
JohnSnow
02-25-05, 08:33 PM This may be a silly suggestion, but I sometimes find it helps me to think of movies I KNOW well that capture the feel of pulp. Two examples are the Star Wars and Indiana Jones movies (yes, Star Wars is pulp, in the Flash Gordon sense). As such, the tips for GMing Star Wars in a way to keep the "feel" apply almost equally well to Eberron.

Some tips for capturing the feel:

1. Motivations are rarely simple, except when they are. Villains can hire you to investigate a crime they committed simply to throw you off track. Employers (and villains and informers) NEVER divulge everything they know.

2. If things are slowing down, have something happen. Is it relevant to the plot? Maybe, but maybe not. Sometimes, just throw something out and let the PCs speculate on the why. If you like one of their ideas, write it into the plot. If not, it's just a random red herring.

3. Involve PCs in the story once things have already started. The narrative term is "In Media Res." Rarely are the main characters brought into a story from the beginning. Usually, they've got a fair bit of catching up to do. Star Wars does this a LOT. In Episode IV (the original film), we catch up after the plans have been swiped, when the rebels are on the run. Leia gets captured and the adventure (in the form of robots) drops into Luke's lap. R2-D2 and C-3PO (combined with Leia's message) fill the same roll as the "dame" in old pulp novels. They didn't stop doing this in the original trilogy.

4. Introduce potential allies as adversaries, and enemies as allies. In pulp, nothing is necessarily as it seems. Dr. Schneider and Walter Donovan from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade fit this role perfectly, as do Ardeth Bey and the librarian from The Mummy (albeit in the totally opposite way).

5. Recurring villains! Secret organizations are great for pulp, because you can have recurring villains without having lots of improbably resurrections. But because they're from the same organization, they invariably FEEL like the same villains. Faceless masterminds are great too.

6. Heroes (Read PCs) are usually at least somewhat famous and important people. If they aren't when they start, they should become so shortly. Some memorable exchanges from the Indy movies that illustrate this:

Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom
Willie: "Aren't you gonna introduce us?"
Lao Che: "This is Willie Scott; this is Indiana Jones, the famous archaeologist."

Chattar Lal: "Dr. Jones, the eminent archaeologist?"
Willie: "Hard to believe, isn't it?"

Chattar Lal: "Dr. Jones, wasn't it the Sultan of Madagascar who threatened to cut off your head if you ever returned to his country? "
Indiana Jones: "No, it wasn't my head."
Chattar Lal: "Then your hands, perhaps?"
Indiana Jones: "No, it wasn't my hands. It was my..."

Indiana Jones: "My misunderstanding."

[i]Raiders of the Lost Ark
Army Officer: "Yes, you're a man of many talents. Professor of archaeology, expert on the occult, and, I've always wanted to say it, 'obtainer of rare antiquities.'"

Katanga: "Dr. Jones! I've heard a lot about you sir! Your appearance is exactly as I imagined!"

Just some of my suggestions.
deClench
02-27-05, 04:21 PM For inspiration on pulp, I like to think think of Conan (both on screen and in print). Good examples of the noir feel I think come out in Chinatown and The French Connection.

I think that Sharn is a beautiful place to work this. It seems to lend itself very well to introducing this atypical noir-play into the game. As fizzbang has said, typical D&D can I think be epitomized as pulp and I think that that style of play is really easier for PC and DM alike.

The noir is a bit harder as I think that all of us that are trying to integrate into our campaigns are realizing. "Mystery," for instance, is harder to make work -- especially when high-magics come into play: what fun's a mystery if it takes the diviner 2 minutes to find the answer. This is helped a bit by Eberron's lack of high-magics. It's harder for the PCs too, as, if they're used to the constant fighting and obvious alignments of the pulp style, they can't get in the right frame-of-mind to solve a mystery and they may tend to bore quicker.

I've been trying to incorporate both into my campaign as alternating styles. I've found that Sharn has been an incredible aid in delivering this as it gives the framework for a network of people that playing pulp-free really requires.
TinManFan
02-27-05, 07:12 PM Thank you very much for your posts. As for the high level magics... uh, well, we just hit 12th, so gonna hafta deal with that pretty soon.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
TinManFan 02-24-05, 09:08 PM	Ok. I'm a semi-longtime gamer, 2nd time Dm and I'm doing Ebberron. Now, at the start, I been struggling to get the pulpy feel to the world down. It de-volved into regular D&D. Evil Undead making BBEG Wiz, Evil Cult worshiping a Kracko-Lich Fiend of Devotion, bar fights and all. But lately I've been trying to add some mystery to it. The captain of one of the district's guard was killed and his head was left on the doorstop. After a few speak w/ deads and some fights with a huge AC cleric, they found his body and noticed that it's been dead almost as long as they've known "Him". I'm planning on webbing this out into a Changling or Transmuter type conspiracey, maybe have the BBEG get ****** at them and all. But I'm asking, is this pulpy enough for the world? The one reason my guys decided to do Ebberron was the different feel, and I want to give them that. Any ideas and suggestions would be great. Thanx
Zalaz Mavi 02-24-05, 10:52 PM	As far as the Noir genre of pulp, two things come to mind. First, there is no such thing as altruism or sincerity. So, anyone who is helping or hindering your PCs in their investigation of the dead guard is do so because it furthers an agenda. The party's "ally" is only manipulating things to turn out in their favor, and so forth. The second is that the pulp detectives were a reaction against the "mathematical" detectives created by Doyle, Christie, etc. (collect enough clues, and voila! everything adds up). The Big Sleep by Chandler is a great example of this; no matter how carefully you go over the book, you'll never be able to figure out who the murderer is. The idea was that human beings aren't always rational in their actions, and therefore motive can't always be determined by rational means. Using your example: a corrupt guardsman A is being blackmailed by corrupt guardsman B; A hires a low-life to kill B; A changes his mind out of fear that B's death will lead to the revelation of A's corruption, but is too late; to divert attention elsewhere, A decapitates B's corpse to make it look like a cult killing or maniac slaying; the PCs are brought in to investigate, A does everything he can to "assist"; meanwhile the low-life is now blackmailing A; low-life A sends low-life B who owes him a big favor to kill somebody close to A, to scare more money out of A and send the message that A isn't untouchable; so on and so forth. Eventually the plot will get so murky and convoluted, that it won't matter what really happened, only that the PCs find a way to put things working quietly again. Really the trick to pulp is when things start feeling like they're slowing down, throw a twist in the plot or goons at the PCs. Keep it moving fast...
Thorgrip 02-25-05, 10:25 AM	You could have the decapitated guardsman be an intelligent undead, such as a vampire, who has been trying to live a good life despite his nature. Perhaps some overzealous Paladin of the Silver Flame murdered him simply because he was undead. You then have a tricky, Eberron-esque plot resolution where the PCs either take the side of the "good" undead or the "bad" paladin.
fizzbang 02-25-05, 11:24 AM	Zalaz, this is definitely one of the better descriptions of pulp and noir that I've seen. Bravo! I feel it's important to remind folks that pulp and noir aren't the same thing, though. The big sticking point tends to be when it comes to corruption: In Pulp, the heroes are usually pretty heroic, and there are usually one or two people they can wholeheartedly trust. Villains and others may be terribly corrupt, but there's always some ally or sidekick who has a heart of gold and will always be there to assist, even if they are a jerk about it. It's what sets the heroes apart from the villains. A good heart shines through even the roughest exterior, just as a blackheart darkens everything around it. In Noir, virtually everyone and everything is corrupt, to a degree. No one's motives can be entirely trusted, nothing is as it seems, and even the most virtuous person has some dark secret or vice somewhere in their past. Even staunch allies or PCs may have situations where their loyalty and heroism is compromised, and the line between hero and villain can become very blurry. Even the greatest heart has a touch of darkness in it, against which it always struggles. Now, either of these styles works quite well in Eberron, and you may find it works to occasionally shift between the two, to keep your players guessing. But in general, it's easier for the Pulp feel to slide towards the "old-fashioned" D&D mentality of "good vs evil", while the Noir feel tends to throw more old-fashioned D&D players for a loop.
JohnSnow 02-25-05, 08:33 PM	This may be a silly suggestion, but I sometimes find it helps me to think of movies I KNOW well that capture the feel of pulp. Two examples are the Star Wars and Indiana Jones movies (yes, Star Wars is pulp, in the Flash Gordon sense). As such, the tips for GMing Star Wars in a way to keep the "feel" apply almost equally well to Eberron. Some tips for capturing the feel: 1. Motivations are rarely simple, except when they are. Villains can hire you to investigate a crime they committed simply to throw you off track. Employers (and villains and informers) NEVER divulge everything they know. 2. If things are slowing down, have something happen. Is it relevant to the plot? Maybe, but maybe not. Sometimes, just throw something out and let the PCs speculate on the why. If you like one of their ideas, write it into the plot. If not, it's just a random red herring. 3. Involve PCs in the story once things have already started. The narrative term is "In Media Res." Rarely are the main characters brought into a story from the beginning. Usually, they've got a fair bit of catching up to do. Star Wars does this a LOT. In Episode IV (the original film), we catch up after the plans have been swiped, when the rebels are on the run. Leia gets captured and the adventure (in the form of robots) drops into Luke's lap. R2-D2 and C-3PO (combined with Leia's message) fill the same roll as the "dame" in old pulp novels. They didn't stop doing this in the original trilogy. 4. Introduce potential allies as adversaries, and enemies as allies. In pulp, nothing is necessarily as it seems. Dr. Schneider and Walter Donovan from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade fit this role perfectly, as do Ardeth Bey and the librarian from The Mummy (albeit in the totally opposite way). 5. Recurring villains! Secret organizations are great for pulp, because you can have recurring villains without having lots of improbably resurrections. But because they're from the same organization, they invariably FEEL like the same villains. Faceless masterminds are great too. 6. Heroes (Read PCs) are usually at least somewhat famous and important people. If they aren't when they start, they should become so shortly. Some memorable exchanges from the Indy movies that illustrate this: Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom Willie: "Aren't you gonna introduce us?" Lao Che: "This is Willie Scott; this is Indiana Jones, the famous archaeologist." Chattar Lal: "Dr. Jones, the eminent archaeologist?" Willie: "Hard to believe, isn't it?" Chattar Lal: "Dr. Jones, wasn't it the Sultan of Madagascar who threatened to cut off your head if you ever returned to his country? " Indiana Jones: "No, it wasn't my head." Chattar Lal: "Then your hands, perhaps?" Indiana Jones: "No, it wasn't my hands. It was my..." Indiana Jones: "My misunderstanding." [i]Raiders of the Lost Ark Army Officer: "Yes, you're a man of many talents. Professor of archaeology, expert on the occult, and, I've always wanted to say it, 'obtainer of rare antiquities.'" Katanga: "Dr. Jones! I've heard a lot about you sir! Your appearance is exactly as I imagined!" Just some of my suggestions.
deClench 02-27-05, 04:21 PM	For inspiration on pulp, I like to think think of Conan (both on screen and in print). Good examples of the noir feel I think come out in Chinatown and The French Connection. I think that Sharn is a beautiful place to work this. It seems to lend itself very well to introducing this atypical noir-play into the game. As fizzbang has said, typical D&D can I think be epitomized as pulp and I think that that style of play is really easier for PC and DM alike. The noir is a bit harder as I think that all of us that are trying to integrate into our campaigns are realizing. "Mystery," for instance, is harder to make work -- especially when high-magics come into play: what fun's a mystery if it takes the diviner 2 minutes to find the answer. This is helped a bit by Eberron's lack of high-magics. It's harder for the PCs too, as, if they're used to the constant fighting and obvious alignments of the pulp style, they can't get in the right frame-of-mind to solve a mystery and they may tend to bore quicker. I've been trying to incorporate both into my campaign as alternating styles. I've found that Sharn has been an incredible aid in delivering this as it gives the framework for a network of people that playing pulp-free really requires.
TinManFan 02-27-05, 07:12 PM	Thank you very much for your posts. As for the high level magics... uh, well, we just hit 12th, so gonna hafta deal with that pretty soon.