Optional rule: Untrained Knowledge Checks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Optional rule: Untrained Knowledge Checks [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Romulus LoneWolf
01-21-06, 12:52 PM Ok, from everything I've seen so far, Knowledge Checks are very important in Eberron. But sadly, many players don't seem to think Knowledge skills are worth putting Ranks into, and standard rules say you can't use knowledge skills untrained.

...However, I think I'll amend that rule in my campaign, and allow players to make Knowledge Checks untrained, at default levels. At least for Low-DC information.
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz
01-21-06, 01:02 PM Ok you can use Knowledge check untrained if it is common Knowledge (DC 10 or lower). I allow certain Knowledge checks if it pertains to the characters (for instance one of my players has Proffession (Law), so when he comes into a sittuation with nobles and such I allow him to make a Knowledge (Royalty & Nobility) check untrained, -5 penalty. I know it seems like hardly even worth taking the roll with that kind of penalty, but that's what you get for not having checks in the skills.
If the information has to do with their home region I do the same thing.
Korhal_IV
01-21-06, 04:21 PM My party started putting points in Knowledge skills precisely because we found it difficult to learn key information (like, the Emerald Claw is associated with the Blood of Vol, even when we'd picked BoV items off of EC soldiers! "Huh, must be some random worshipper.").

I suggest not coddling your players, but point it out to them every time their life could've been easier if they'd had the right knowledge skills ("Baron Merrix d'who?"). They'll get the point quickly.
talion09
01-22-06, 01:11 AM My party started putting points in Knowledge skills precisely because we found it difficult to learn key information (like, the Emerald Claw is associated with the Blood of Vol, even when we'd picked BoV items off of EC soldiers! "Huh, must be some random worshipper.").

I suggest not coddling your players, but point it out to them every time their life could've been easier if they'd had the right knowledge skills ("Baron Merrix d'who?"). They'll get the point quickly.

That is exactly why most of my wizard characters put at least one point into every Knowledge skill... at least I have a decent chance with my intelligence bonus to get the medium DC knowledge checks.
Cutlass
01-22-06, 01:18 AM One of my personal biases is that the alleged skill system, particularly the part relating to knowledge skills, is one of the weakest parts of the D20 system. Character classes should probably have about double the amount of skill points they are currently allotted in order to make the system more "reasonable/realistic".

That being said, Romulus' suggested house rule has already been implemented within the system.

If you just want a general idea of how much your character knows about the material in the entry, assume your character takes 10 on all appropriate Knowledge checks. Thus, any fact with a DC of 10 or lower is considered common knowledge and accessible to every character with average or better Intelligence, regardless of whether the character has any ranks in Knowledge skills. If you have a Knowledge (religion) modifier of +5, you know every fact associated with that skill that has a DC of 15 or lower.

While I take it as a given that characters will not know the game rule description/explanation of what it is they are doing and the abilities of what they are facing all the time, they nevertheless have a significant advantage over the players. That advantage is that the character has been totally immersed in the game world for his/her entire life, usually a span of several decades. As a result, they have a very good intuitive feel for how the things that they normally deal with should be expected to work as they would have observed it from their vantage point, and they would have soaked up a considerable amount of extra information just from listenitng to songs, stories, and other whatnot over the course of their lives.

To that extent, I would argue that the situation Korhal_IV describes is actually something of an abuse of the rules. Characters should be able to integrate facts that they find without having to spend ridiculously scarce skill points to get a level in a "Knowledge" skill that would tell them something that they had literally seen staring them in the face for quite some time. Namely that there seem to be an awful lot of Blood of Vol worshippers who hang out in the Order of the Emeral Claw. While I would not expect the characters to be able to figure out the exact nature of the link between the two organizations based solely on what their findings were, I would expect them to be able to figure out that some sort of link existed.

Granted, I would not expect a different group of characters that had not gathered a bunch of hard won evidence off Emerald Claw soldiers to know that there was a link. But to rule that a group which has been fighting the Emerald Claw on a regular basis and constantly tripping over Blood of Vol regalia in the aftermath of their battles couldn't see an association simply strikes me as absurd.
talion09
01-22-06, 01:27 AM One of my personal biases is that the alleged skill system, particularly the part relating to knowledge skills, is one of the weakest parts of the D20 system. Character classes should probably have about double the amount of skill points they are currently allotted in order to make the system more "reasonable/realistic".

That being said, Romulus' suggested house rule has already been implemented within the system.

While I take it as a given that characters will not know the game rule description/explanation of what it is they are doing and the abilities of what they are facing all the time, they nevertheless have a significant advantage over the players. That advantage is that the character has been totally immersed in the game world for his/her entire life, usually a span of several decades. As a result, they have a very good intuitive feel for how the things that they normally deal with should be expected to work as they would have observed it from their vantage point, and they would have soaked up a considerable amount of extra information just from listenitng to songs, stories, and other whatnot over the course of their lives.

To that extent, I would argue that the situation Korhal_IV describes is actually something of an abuse of the rules. Characters should be able to integrate facts that they find without having to spend ridiculously scarce skill points to get a level in a "Knowledge" skill that would tell them something that they had literally seen staring them in the face for quite some time. Namely that there seem to be an awful lot of Blood of Vol worshippers who hang out in the Order of the Emeral Claw. While I would not expect the characters to be able to figure out the exact nature of the link between the two organizations based solely on what their findings were, I would expect them to be able to figure out that some sort of link existed.

Granted, I would not expect a different group of characters that had not gathered a bunch of hard won evidence off Emerald Claw soldiers to know that there was a link. But to rule that a group which has been fighting the Emerald Claw on a regular basis and constantly tripping over Blood of Vol regalia in the aftermath of their battles couldn't see an association simply strikes me as absurd.

Well, I wouldn't expect the PCs to have to make Knowledge checks if the evidence is right there for them to connect the dots.

I wouldn't think it would be "out of character" for any PC with an average intelligence to realize that there was a substantial link between the BoV and EC given the example above.
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz
01-22-06, 02:58 AM Here is a helper with the knowledge checks and when to use them:
1. Would this roll give the player "out of game info that would help him role-play his character".
2. When identifying monsters and their weaknesses. I never spit out the name of a monster and try to describe them to the best of my ability. Doing this puts more of a fear into my players, as they aren't sure what is going on.
3. Just random knowledge, for instance a character with Knowledge (Nobility) from Breland might not know a member of X person, is actualy X noble from X town.

Just because a character has a high bonus in such a skill doesn't mean he should know everything within that range. I personaly only make character's roll when they are out of their elements, or regions they are truely familiar with.

For instance I have 3 PCs that are from Cyre, but have lived in Zilargo for some time and now are able to move around and know more of the nation then when they first arrived. If one of those characters had say, Knowledge (Nobility), then that would only insure him to know the Galifar nobility and how things where then, and the Cyran nobility, and major players from other regions. But he wouldn't know X magistrate of Zolanberg, until some time passed. Even if he had a +20 modifier. Now I would let him make the roll to see, and I would even allow the PC to take 10, but I wouldn't just be like, "Oh yeah you know him, heck you know his whole family line with that bonus."
Kalanth
01-22-06, 03:32 AM If you make the Knoweledge checks more important during the course of your games, the players will pick up on this and begin to use them more often. These skills are so vital to any campaign, Eberron not being any more different than other games when it comes to these. One of the most usefull feats that I have come across for my characters, most especially when taking something with monster levels, is the Education feat. Making Knowledge skills class skills and giving me a bonus to two of them, really a big help there.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Romulus LoneWolf 01-21-06, 12:52 PM	Ok, from everything I've seen so far, Knowledge Checks are very important in Eberron. But sadly, many players don't seem to think Knowledge skills are worth putting Ranks into, and standard rules say you can't use knowledge skills untrained. ...However, I think I'll amend that rule in my campaign, and allow players to make Knowledge Checks untrained, at default levels. At least for Low-DC information.
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz 01-21-06, 01:02 PM	Ok you can use Knowledge check untrained if it is common Knowledge (DC 10 or lower). I allow certain Knowledge checks if it pertains to the characters (for instance one of my players has Proffession (Law), so when he comes into a sittuation with nobles and such I allow him to make a Knowledge (Royalty & Nobility) check untrained, -5 penalty. I know it seems like hardly even worth taking the roll with that kind of penalty, but that's what you get for not having checks in the skills. If the information has to do with their home region I do the same thing.
Korhal_IV 01-21-06, 04:21 PM	My party started putting points in Knowledge skills precisely because we found it difficult to learn key information (like, the Emerald Claw is associated with the Blood of Vol, even when we'd picked BoV items off of EC soldiers! "Huh, must be some random worshipper."). I suggest not coddling your players, but point it out to them every time their life could've been easier if they'd had the right knowledge skills ("Baron Merrix d'who?"). They'll get the point quickly.
talion09 01-22-06, 01:11 AM	My party started putting points in Knowledge skills precisely because we found it difficult to learn key information (like, the Emerald Claw is associated with the Blood of Vol, even when we'd picked BoV items off of EC soldiers! "Huh, must be some random worshipper."). I suggest not coddling your players, but point it out to them every time their life could've been easier if they'd had the right knowledge skills ("Baron Merrix d'who?"). They'll get the point quickly. That is exactly why most of my wizard characters put at least one point into every Knowledge skill... at least I have a decent chance with my intelligence bonus to get the medium DC knowledge checks.
Cutlass 01-22-06, 01:18 AM	One of my personal biases is that the alleged skill system, particularly the part relating to knowledge skills, is one of the weakest parts of the D20 system. Character classes should probably have about double the amount of skill points they are currently allotted in order to make the system more "reasonable/realistic". That being said, Romulus' suggested house rule has already been implemented within the system. If you just want a general idea of how much your character knows about the material in the entry, assume your character takes 10 on all appropriate Knowledge checks. Thus, any fact with a DC of 10 or lower is considered common knowledge and accessible to every character with average or better Intelligence, regardless of whether the character has any ranks in Knowledge skills. If you have a Knowledge (religion) modifier of +5, you know every fact associated with that skill that has a DC of 15 or lower. While I take it as a given that characters will not know the game rule description/explanation of what it is they are doing and the abilities of what they are facing all the time, they nevertheless have a significant advantage over the players. That advantage is that the character has been totally immersed in the game world for his/her entire life, usually a span of several decades. As a result, they have a very good intuitive feel for how the things that they normally deal with should be expected to work as they would have observed it from their vantage point, and they would have soaked up a considerable amount of extra information just from listenitng to songs, stories, and other whatnot over the course of their lives. To that extent, I would argue that the situation Korhal_IV describes is actually something of an abuse of the rules. Characters should be able to integrate facts that they find without having to spend ridiculously scarce skill points to get a level in a "Knowledge" skill that would tell them something that they had literally seen staring them in the face for quite some time. Namely that there seem to be an awful lot of Blood of Vol worshippers who hang out in the Order of the Emeral Claw. While I would not expect the characters to be able to figure out the exact nature of the link between the two organizations based solely on what their findings were, I would expect them to be able to figure out that some sort of link existed. Granted, I would not expect a different group of characters that had not gathered a bunch of hard won evidence off Emerald Claw soldiers to know that there was a link. But to rule that a group which has been fighting the Emerald Claw on a regular basis and constantly tripping over Blood of Vol regalia in the aftermath of their battles couldn't see an association simply strikes me as absurd.
talion09 01-22-06, 01:27 AM	One of my personal biases is that the alleged skill system, particularly the part relating to knowledge skills, is one of the weakest parts of the D20 system. Character classes should probably have about double the amount of skill points they are currently allotted in order to make the system more "reasonable/realistic". That being said, Romulus' suggested house rule has already been implemented within the system. While I take it as a given that characters will not know the game rule description/explanation of what it is they are doing and the abilities of what they are facing all the time, they nevertheless have a significant advantage over the players. That advantage is that the character has been totally immersed in the game world for his/her entire life, usually a span of several decades. As a result, they have a very good intuitive feel for how the things that they normally deal with should be expected to work as they would have observed it from their vantage point, and they would have soaked up a considerable amount of extra information just from listenitng to songs, stories, and other whatnot over the course of their lives. To that extent, I would argue that the situation Korhal_IV describes is actually something of an abuse of the rules. Characters should be able to integrate facts that they find without having to spend ridiculously scarce skill points to get a level in a "Knowledge" skill that would tell them something that they had literally seen staring them in the face for quite some time. Namely that there seem to be an awful lot of Blood of Vol worshippers who hang out in the Order of the Emeral Claw. While I would not expect the characters to be able to figure out the exact nature of the link between the two organizations based solely on what their findings were, I would expect them to be able to figure out that some sort of link existed. Granted, I would not expect a different group of characters that had not gathered a bunch of hard won evidence off Emerald Claw soldiers to know that there was a link. But to rule that a group which has been fighting the Emerald Claw on a regular basis and constantly tripping over Blood of Vol regalia in the aftermath of their battles couldn't see an association simply strikes me as absurd. Well, I wouldn't expect the PCs to have to make Knowledge checks if the evidence is right there for them to connect the dots. I wouldn't think it would be "out of character" for any PC with an average intelligence to realize that there was a substantial link between the BoV and EC given the example above.
twelvedrunkenmonkeyz 01-22-06, 02:58 AM	Here is a helper with the knowledge checks and when to use them: 1. Would this roll give the player "out of game info that would help him role-play his character". 2. When identifying monsters and their weaknesses. I never spit out the name of a monster and try to describe them to the best of my ability. Doing this puts more of a fear into my players, as they aren't sure what is going on. 3. Just random knowledge, for instance a character with Knowledge (Nobility) from Breland might not know a member of X person, is actualy X noble from X town. Just because a character has a high bonus in such a skill doesn't mean he should know everything within that range. I personaly only make character's roll when they are out of their elements, or regions they are truely familiar with. For instance I have 3 PCs that are from Cyre, but have lived in Zilargo for some time and now are able to move around and know more of the nation then when they first arrived. If one of those characters had say, Knowledge (Nobility), then that would only insure him to know the Galifar nobility and how things where then, and the Cyran nobility, and major players from other regions. But he wouldn't know X magistrate of Zolanberg, until some time passed. Even if he had a +20 modifier. Now I would let him make the roll to see, and I would even allow the PC to take 10, but I wouldn't just be like, "Oh yeah you know him, heck you know his whole family line with that bonus."
Kalanth 01-22-06, 03:32 AM	If you make the Knoweledge checks more important during the course of your games, the players will pick up on this and begin to use them more often. These skills are so vital to any campaign, Eberron not being any more different than other games when it comes to these. One of the most usefull feats that I have come across for my characters, most especially when taking something with monster levels, is the Education feat. Making Knowledge skills class skills and giving me a bonus to two of them, really a big help there.