Orcs in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Orcs in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Hrothgar the Dwarf
07-03-04, 02:13 PM Does it seem to anybody else that the orcs would be slightly different in Eberron? They're much less war-like and crazy it seems, with the Gatekeepers dedicated themselves to holding Xoriat closed and the tribe in the Demon Wastes vowing to keep the evil in the Wastes?

The stat spread does not seem like the kind of creature that has spent generations and generations with a strong druidic tradition.

I was thinking of house ruling it to the stat spread of the Grey Orcs from FR. They have a +2 Str, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha and that orc was designed around a strong clerical tradition. The race has some other things that I don't find fitting but I think the stat spread in place of the MM Orcs would make more sense. Any opinions on this? It seems balanced to me, but I'd like some input before I put it in.

hrothgar the dwarf
Ormus
07-03-04, 05:36 PM Originally posted by Hrothgar the Dwarf
I was thinking of house ruling it to the stat spread of the Grey Orcs from FR. They have a +2 Str, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha and that orc was designed around a strong clerical tradition. The race has some other things that I don't find fitting but I think the stat spread in place of the MM Orcs would make more sense. Any opinions on this? It seems balanced to me, but I'd like some input before I put it in.

hrothgar the dwarf

As sick of the Realms as I am, I am giving this some serious consideration for my Eberron game. Since one of my players is to be playing an Orc Druid(Gatekeeper Initiate), and we'll be starting out in the Shadow Marches, I might implement this. Seems fair enough to derive that over 15,000 years of druidic tradition(after being taught by Vvaraak), they might be wiser. *shrug
I think it looks balanced enough at first glance. Anyone else have any thoughts? I'm not the best at tinkering with races.
Hellcow
07-03-04, 08:11 PM Originally posted by Hrothgar the Dwarf
The stat spread does not seem like the kind of creature that has spent generations and generations with a strong druidic tradition.
Bear in mind that not all orcs have. Even in the Shadow Marches, as many orcs follow the Cults of the Dragon Below as do the traditions of the Gatekeepers, and since the arrival of humanity many have abandoned both of these old paths.

Personally, I'm just not a big fan of modifying statistics based on culture. If it's a matter of culture as opposed to evolution and biology, why don't different human cultures have statistic modifiers? It also goes some ways towards explaining why, although the orcs are the oldest druidic tradition, the human-dominated sects (such as the Wardens of the Wood) have become predominant... because humans have an easier time performing druidic magic. It's always been a struggle for the orcs, but one they've valiantly fought.

But like I said, I don't like subraces. You should certainly do what fits your style of play and campaign!
Hellcow
07-03-04, 08:20 PM Originally posted by Ormus
I think it looks balanced enough at first glance. Anyone else have any thoughts? I'm not the best at tinkering with races.
It's the age-old issue of races with mental stat modifiers. The issue is that if you allow orcs as player characters with these statistics, it makes the orcs the most effective clerics and druids around (unless you're focusing on turning undead) -- The Wisdom bonus will give you bonus spells and higher DC, and the Strength bonus suppliments the combat abilities of the cleric. You could make the case that this is appropriate, and say that with millenia of practice, they *should* be the best druids on Khorvaire; again, if you want to do it, I wouldn't stop you. It's just something to bear in mind... as well as raising the question of whether this makes sense for orcs as a race. Are the followers of the Dragon Below this wise? What about the orcs of the Mror Holds? And while the orcs of the Demon Wastes cleave to a noble cause, do they need a high wisdom to do this?

On the matter of balance, if you're dealing with an LA +0 race, the half orc is Str +2, Int -2, Cha -2; this orc build is Str +2, Wis +2, Int -2, Cha -2. What's the drawback that balances this to a half-orc?
jedi8187
07-03-04, 08:35 PM Originally posted by Hellcow
1.It's the age-old issue of races with mental stat modifiers.

2.On the matter of balance, if you're dealing with an LA +0 race, the half orc is Str +2, Int -2, Cha -2; this orc build is Str +2, Wis +2, Int -2, Cha -2. What's the drawback that balances this to a half-orc?

1. If anyone is interested in just how exaustive this topic can get see How Blue Can You Get? over on the psionics board, 40 somthing pages all on(basicly) this topic. The thread made me add the first thing ever to my sig, you can probably guess with one it was. And please lets not start it here, every possible arguement has been exausted in the above mentioned thread, and then some.

2.This is a good point, and I just thought it should be inphasised. Looking at it compared to another race it is strictly better as it has the same stat adjusts, and an addtional +, so say bye-bye to half-orcs for munchkins.
Ormus
07-03-04, 09:44 PM Originally posted by Hellcow
On the matter of balance, if you're dealing with an LA +0 race, the half orc is Str +2, Int -2, Cha -2; this orc build is Str +2, Wis +2, Int -2, Cha -2. What's the drawback that balances this to a half-orc?

Heh, thanks for pointing that out. I'm going to leave it as it is now. :mage:
Dauntless
07-03-04, 10:31 PM Although considering the Half-Orc is underpowered at +2/-2/-2 with crap for racial abilities (Darkvision? If I wanted darkvision I'd play a dwarf with fewer penalties and buttloads of other racial goodies), that isn't saying much for comparison. Half-orcs (along with half-elves) are mediocre at best, and downright inferior at worst.
Magagumo
07-03-04, 10:34 PM True, though Darkvision si really good. Also, rem that dwarves have a slower move speed (big deal for overland travel and even combat) and that a +2 str is very hard to come by easily.

Half-orcs still feel a lil weak, but I don't play tanks much.
MavrickWeirdo
07-03-04, 11:05 PM If you did use the "standard" modifiers for an orc (Str +4, Int -2, Wis -2, Cha -2) then with "typical PC scores" your player could have Str 12, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 12.

Technicaly orcs are LA +1, but your player would be playing against it's strengths so it might not be unbalenced.

If your player doesn't want the Wis penalty, then he could play a Half-Orc (Str 10, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 15, Cha 12). If he feels that Half-Orcs are underpowered then throw in some racial benefits like Scent or +2 on intimidate.
JBW
07-03-04, 11:55 PM I've been using the following for Orcs and Half-Orcs for a while now.

Orc: +4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha
Half-Orc: +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha

Neither has Light Sensitivity, and both have all the other features of the Half-Orc from the PHB. I realize that the above stats are favorably unbalanced, but this makes up for a lacking in other racial abilities aside from Darkvision.

Jay
Hellcow
07-04-04, 12:08 AM Originally posted by MavrickWeirdo
Technicaly orcs are LA +1, but your player would be playing against it's strengths so it might not be unbalanced.
Hmm. I'm looking at the 3.5 MM right now, and it says orcs are LA +0. You get the big strength, but you have the light sensitivity balanced against it.

Personally, my inclination would be to use the half-orc statistics for the "spiritual" orc -- no Wisdom bonus, but no penalty either.
Hrothgar the Dwarf
07-04-04, 02:22 AM Well Hellcow, you definately changed my mind. I see your point about society making stats.. and I guess I shall keep it like it is.

And I must say, that this has to be the coolest thing ever to buy a new setting, thumb through it, have questions, ask said questions, and the designer answers back.

thanks for the help guys
hrothgar
Joni-san
07-04-04, 02:38 AM I've allways seen this as the solution to the Half-Orc's problem: Replace the penalty to Int and Cha with a -2 Dex (This is balanced IIRC)

Then give them the special "Iron Gut"(Ex) Ability (based on stuff found on these forums

Iron Gut (Ex): Iron gut allows the Half-Orc to digest foods that are (recently) spoiled or raw without health complication. In addition the Half-Orc gains a +2 vs Poisons and Sicknes that comes from food or drink

And perhaps "Rock Hard"(Ex): The Half-Orc gains +2 Hp on 1'st level and one extra on 2'nd level and every two levels after that (4,6 etc...)

I'd give a similar bonus to Half-Elves (Sharper tool(Ex):+1 Skillpoint at 1'st level and at 3'rd and every third after that(6, 9 etc...)
Willie the Duck
07-04-04, 03:52 AM Originally posted by Hellcow
Hmm. I'm looking at the 3.5 MM right now, and it says orcs are LA +0. You get the big strength, but you have the light sensitivity balanced against it.

Personally, my inclination would be to use the half-orc statistics for the "spiritual" orc -- no Wisdom bonus, but no penalty either.

nonono. not orcs. Orcs are La+0. We are talking about the "grey"/"eastern" orcs listed in various FR suppliments. They are a LA+1 race with more special abilities (including the +2 wis), favord class cleric, and a decidedly spiritual bent (although their devotion to the standard orc gods makes them still rather vile and brutal). Personally I say they are a good comparison in flavor to your orcs. Whether one chooses to use their stats is a matter of DM choice. Personally, I find them to be one of the few La+1 races that aren't either overpowered or underpowered.
Drizzt Clone
07-04-04, 11:00 AM The thread on reworking racial paragons (Clickety (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=251402)) has nice variant orc and half-orcs that are much more balanced and that players might actually want to use.
MavrickWeirdo
07-04-04, 04:03 PM Originally posted by Hellcow
Hmm. I'm looking at the 3.5 MM right now, and it says orcs are LA +0. You get the big strength, but you have the light sensitivity balanced against it.

Personally, my inclination would be to use the half-orc statistics for the "spiritual" orc -- no Wisdom bonus, but no penalty either.

Sorry, I still haven't converted over to 3.5 fully.
jedi8187
07-04-04, 05:11 PM Originally posted by Joni-san
I'd give a similar bonus to Half-Elves (Sharper tool(Ex):+1 Skillpoint at 1'st level and at 3'rd and every third after that(6, 9 etc...)

I just give half-elves the skill abilites of humans(+4 at first level, and +1 every level after).

I like your Half-orc Ideas, and will likely add them.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Hrothgar the Dwarf 07-03-04, 02:13 PM	Does it seem to anybody else that the orcs would be slightly different in Eberron? They're much less war-like and crazy it seems, with the Gatekeepers dedicated themselves to holding Xoriat closed and the tribe in the Demon Wastes vowing to keep the evil in the Wastes? The stat spread does not seem like the kind of creature that has spent generations and generations with a strong druidic tradition. I was thinking of house ruling it to the stat spread of the Grey Orcs from FR. They have a +2 Str, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha and that orc was designed around a strong clerical tradition. The race has some other things that I don't find fitting but I think the stat spread in place of the MM Orcs would make more sense. Any opinions on this? It seems balanced to me, but I'd like some input before I put it in. hrothgar the dwarf
Ormus 07-03-04, 05:36 PM	Originally posted by Hrothgar the Dwarf I was thinking of house ruling it to the stat spread of the Grey Orcs from FR. They have a +2 Str, -2 Int, +2 Wis, -2 Cha and that orc was designed around a strong clerical tradition. The race has some other things that I don't find fitting but I think the stat spread in place of the MM Orcs would make more sense. Any opinions on this? It seems balanced to me, but I'd like some input before I put it in. hrothgar the dwarf As sick of the Realms as I am, I am giving this some serious consideration for my Eberron game. Since one of my players is to be playing an Orc Druid(Gatekeeper Initiate), and we'll be starting out in the Shadow Marches, I might implement this. Seems fair enough to derive that over 15,000 years of druidic tradition(after being taught by Vvaraak), they might be wiser. *shrug I think it looks balanced enough at first glance. Anyone else have any thoughts? I'm not the best at tinkering with races.
Hellcow 07-03-04, 08:11 PM	Originally posted by Hrothgar the Dwarf The stat spread does not seem like the kind of creature that has spent generations and generations with a strong druidic tradition. Bear in mind that not all orcs have. Even in the Shadow Marches, as many orcs follow the Cults of the Dragon Below as do the traditions of the Gatekeepers, and since the arrival of humanity many have abandoned both of these old paths. Personally, I'm just not a big fan of modifying statistics based on culture. If it's a matter of culture as opposed to evolution and biology, why don't different human cultures have statistic modifiers? It also goes some ways towards explaining why, although the orcs are the oldest druidic tradition, the human-dominated sects (such as the Wardens of the Wood) have become predominant... because humans have an easier time performing druidic magic. It's always been a struggle for the orcs, but one they've valiantly fought. But like I said, I don't like subraces. You should certainly do what fits your style of play and campaign!
Hellcow 07-03-04, 08:20 PM	Originally posted by Ormus I think it looks balanced enough at first glance. Anyone else have any thoughts? I'm not the best at tinkering with races. It's the age-old issue of races with mental stat modifiers. The issue is that if you allow orcs as player characters with these statistics, it makes the orcs the most effective clerics and druids around (unless you're focusing on turning undead) -- The Wisdom bonus will give you bonus spells and higher DC, and the Strength bonus suppliments the combat abilities of the cleric. You could make the case that this is appropriate, and say that with millenia of practice, they should be the best druids on Khorvaire; again, if you want to do it, I wouldn't stop you. It's just something to bear in mind... as well as raising the question of whether this makes sense for orcs as a race. Are the followers of the Dragon Below this wise? What about the orcs of the Mror Holds? And while the orcs of the Demon Wastes cleave to a noble cause, do they need a high wisdom to do this? On the matter of balance, if you're dealing with an LA +0 race, the half orc is Str +2, Int -2, Cha -2; this orc build is Str +2, Wis +2, Int -2, Cha -2. What's the drawback that balances this to a half-orc?
jedi8187 07-03-04, 08:35 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow 1.It's the age-old issue of races with mental stat modifiers. 2.On the matter of balance, if you're dealing with an LA +0 race, the half orc is Str +2, Int -2, Cha -2; this orc build is Str +2, Wis +2, Int -2, Cha -2. What's the drawback that balances this to a half-orc? 1. If anyone is interested in just how exaustive this topic can get see How Blue Can You Get? over on the psionics board, 40 somthing pages all on(basicly) this topic. The thread made me add the first thing ever to my sig, you can probably guess with one it was. And please lets not start it here, every possible arguement has been exausted in the above mentioned thread, and then some. 2.This is a good point, and I just thought it should be inphasised. Looking at it compared to another race it is strictly better as it has the same stat adjusts, and an addtional +, so say bye-bye to half-orcs for munchkins.
Ormus 07-03-04, 09:44 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow On the matter of balance, if you're dealing with an LA +0 race, the half orc is Str +2, Int -2, Cha -2; this orc build is Str +2, Wis +2, Int -2, Cha -2. What's the drawback that balances this to a half-orc? Heh, thanks for pointing that out. I'm going to leave it as it is now. :mage:
Dauntless 07-03-04, 10:31 PM	Although considering the Half-Orc is underpowered at +2/-2/-2 with crap for racial abilities (Darkvision? If I wanted darkvision I'd play a dwarf with fewer penalties and buttloads of other racial goodies), that isn't saying much for comparison. Half-orcs (along with half-elves) are mediocre at best, and downright inferior at worst.
Magagumo 07-03-04, 10:34 PM	True, though Darkvision si really good. Also, rem that dwarves have a slower move speed (big deal for overland travel and even combat) and that a +2 str is very hard to come by easily. Half-orcs still feel a lil weak, but I don't play tanks much.
MavrickWeirdo 07-03-04, 11:05 PM	If you did use the "standard" modifiers for an orc (Str +4, Int -2, Wis -2, Cha -2) then with "typical PC scores" your player could have Str 12, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 12. Technicaly orcs are LA +1, but your player would be playing against it's strengths so it might not be unbalenced. If your player doesn't want the Wis penalty, then he could play a Half-Orc (Str 10, Dex 10, Con 12, Int 11, Wis 15, Cha 12). If he feels that Half-Orcs are underpowered then throw in some racial benefits like Scent or +2 on intimidate.
JBW 07-03-04, 11:55 PM	I've been using the following for Orcs and Half-Orcs for a while now. Orc: +4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha Half-Orc: +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha Neither has Light Sensitivity, and both have all the other features of the Half-Orc from the PHB. I realize that the above stats are favorably unbalanced, but this makes up for a lacking in other racial abilities aside from Darkvision. Jay
Hellcow 07-04-04, 12:08 AM	Originally posted by MavrickWeirdo Technicaly orcs are LA +1, but your player would be playing against it's strengths so it might not be unbalanced. Hmm. I'm looking at the 3.5 MM right now, and it says orcs are LA +0. You get the big strength, but you have the light sensitivity balanced against it. Personally, my inclination would be to use the half-orc statistics for the "spiritual" orc -- no Wisdom bonus, but no penalty either.
Hrothgar the Dwarf 07-04-04, 02:22 AM	Well Hellcow, you definately changed my mind. I see your point about society making stats.. and I guess I shall keep it like it is. And I must say, that this has to be the coolest thing ever to buy a new setting, thumb through it, have questions, ask said questions, and the designer answers back. thanks for the help guys hrothgar
Joni-san 07-04-04, 02:38 AM	I've allways seen this as the solution to the Half-Orc's problem: Replace the penalty to Int and Cha with a -2 Dex (This is balanced IIRC) Then give them the special "Iron Gut"(Ex) Ability (based on stuff found on these forums Iron Gut (Ex): Iron gut allows the Half-Orc to digest foods that are (recently) spoiled or raw without health complication. In addition the Half-Orc gains a +2 vs Poisons and Sicknes that comes from food or drink And perhaps "Rock Hard"(Ex): The Half-Orc gains +2 Hp on 1'st level and one extra on 2'nd level and every two levels after that (4,6 etc...) I'd give a similar bonus to Half-Elves (Sharper tool(Ex):+1 Skillpoint at 1'st level and at 3'rd and every third after that(6, 9 etc...)
Willie the Duck 07-04-04, 03:52 AM	Originally posted by Hellcow Hmm. I'm looking at the 3.5 MM right now, and it says orcs are LA +0. You get the big strength, but you have the light sensitivity balanced against it. Personally, my inclination would be to use the half-orc statistics for the "spiritual" orc -- no Wisdom bonus, but no penalty either. nonono. not orcs. Orcs are La+0. We are talking about the "grey"/"eastern" orcs listed in various FR suppliments. They are a LA+1 race with more special abilities (including the +2 wis), favord class cleric, and a decidedly spiritual bent (although their devotion to the standard orc gods makes them still rather vile and brutal). Personally I say they are a good comparison in flavor to your orcs. Whether one chooses to use their stats is a matter of DM choice. Personally, I find them to be one of the few La+1 races that aren't either overpowered or underpowered.
Drizzt Clone 07-04-04, 11:00 AM	The thread on reworking racial paragons (Clickety (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=251402)) has nice variant orc and half-orcs that are much more balanced and that players might actually want to use.
MavrickWeirdo 07-04-04, 04:03 PM	Originally posted by Hellcow Hmm. I'm looking at the 3.5 MM right now, and it says orcs are LA +0. You get the big strength, but you have the light sensitivity balanced against it. Personally, my inclination would be to use the half-orc statistics for the "spiritual" orc -- no Wisdom bonus, but no penalty either. Sorry, I still haven't converted over to 3.5 fully.
jedi8187 07-04-04, 05:11 PM	Originally posted by Joni-san I'd give a similar bonus to Half-Elves (Sharper tool(Ex):+1 Skillpoint at 1'st level and at 3'rd and every third after that(6, 9 etc...) I just give half-elves the skill abilites of humans(+4 at first level, and +1 every level after). I like your Half-orc Ideas, and will likely add them.