Outisders and Alignment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Outisders and Alignment [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
SaiDeathSpoon
12-09-06, 06:25 PM Quick question here: Let's say there's a Lawful Good Balor. For purposes of things like favored enemies, bane weapons, etcetera, would they be considered Outsiders (Chaotic, Evil) or Outsiders (Lawful, Good)? Does alignment have any bearing on their actualy type? The same goes for Neutral Evil Archons, Chaotic Good Yugoloths, etc.
Kaizer_Ryu
12-09-06, 07:05 PM IMO, the "always <insert alignment>" means "the odds of finding one not this are incredibly slim". So long as you can justify their rebellion against their species given alignment, I say screw the MM's alignment restriction. Demons may be the embodiment of evil, and angels the embodiment of good, but a demon can be redeemed and an angel can fall. Drow are "evil subterranian elves", but just look at Drizzt.

Yes, I know he's busy slaughtering his legions of clones, but they deserve it. :P :D

As far as what they would be considered, for your example I say Outsider (Lawful, Good). His type remains the same, but his alignment has changed. Weapons would function accordingly.
Alex_
12-09-06, 07:33 PM The Eberron rules say that any creature can be any alignment and also suggest that alignment is not the straightjacket it may be in other games, and that good aligned characters can perform some more questionable acts at times while still remaining good.

However...

I don't think it applies as readily to creatures who are supposed to be -insert alignment here- incarnnate. The material plane isn't aligned to any particular alignment, which makes it much easier to be lawful good or chaotic evil. Beings spawned on other planes with stronger influences should have a much harder time of it. Almsot like an animal or Vermin trying to be anything but neutral.

I think making Devils and Demons good and making Angels and Celestials evil as mortals are without some more dramatic consequences. Neutral perhaps, but not a totally polar opposite. Afterall, isn't there a kind of Demons/Devil that's supposed to come from fallen Angels? That would suggest that there is more to an these creatures being good than simply their personal outlook on life. I'd expect that changing alignment should also change spell-like abilities.

I don't think the "Evil Drow" comparison is valid. Drow are just as mortal as any other of the humanoid races. They have a tendancy (often both psychologically and culturally it seems) to be cruel and less sympathetic than the other races, but they aren't the physical embodiment of those properties as many outsiders are.

Not that Demons and Devils should never be allowed to be an alignment other than what the MM lists, I think such changes should trully take into account the possible reprecussions that are more than, "This individual is just different from others of their kind" that is more reasonable with creatures from the material plane. There has to trully be some extreme circumstances.
Vikjunk
12-09-06, 07:35 PM I would say it would be still considered Outsider (Chaotic, Evil) since just because it changes alignment doesn't mean that they would lose or change their subtypes and Bane and Favored Enemy are based of those subtypes. You would have to do a Ritual of Alignment from Savage Species to change it and it isn't cheap. There are plenty of Outsiders that don’t have an alignment subtype but are still have alignment that say always in them. Xill are always Lawful Evil, Shadow Mastiffs are always Neutral Evil, and Rakshasas are always Lawful Evil just to name a few Outsiders that don’t have alignment subtypes. This kind of sucks since there are a few creatures who you will never be able to use Bane or Favored Enemy since there are a few Outsiders and Humanoids that don’t have subtypes.
Salla
12-09-06, 09:13 PM Yes ... a creature that is Lawful Good with the Chaotic and Evil subtypes is treated as 'all of the above' as regards to effects that care about alignment. It recieves extra damage from axiomatic, anarchic, holy and unholy weapons, is affected by every Protection From Good/Evil/Law/Chaos spell, etc.
Hellcow
12-10-06, 12:33 PM Eberron does allow creatures to be of any alignment, regardless of MM statement. However, in my opinion, there are categories of creatures that ARE likely to follow a set alignment, and outsiders are at the top of the list. IMO, an outsider isn't simply an alien creature, like a klingon or romulan, that still has a fundamentally human outlook on the world. Instead, an outsider is an embodiment of an idea. It IS evil given form, not simply a big scaly winged thing that happens to have embraced evil.

With that said, angels can fall, and as the kalashtar show, quori can rise. But by traditional mythology, what are demons if not fallen angels? My point being, that if the outsider is an idea given form, when it deviates from that idea, it may fundamentally and physically change. A key example of this that already exists is the Radiant Idol (from the Sharn sourcebook), which is a fallen angel of Syrania. I don't have the sourcebook at hand, but I believe that the Radiant Idol has the evil subtype... in spite of having begun its existence as a creature with the good subtype.
ChimericalWolf
12-10-06, 01:21 PM A key example of this that already exists is the Radiant Idol (from the Sharn sourcebook), which is a fallen angel of Syrania. I don't have the sourcebook at hand, but I believe that the Radiant Idol has the evil subtype... in spite of having begun its existence as a creature with the good subtype.

Just checked, the Radiant Idol does not have the Evil subtype, it is, in fact, only an Outsider (Native).

To the OP, as I understand it, a creature with alignment subtypes keeps those subtypes, regardless of alignment.

So your Lawful Good Balor would still have the Chaotic and Evil subtypes, and like Salla said, is affected by all effects that depend on alignment.
Vikjunk
12-10-06, 01:22 PM Radiant Idol are a little weird. They don’t gain the evil subtype but they do gain the native subtype. And in their description they are described as not all being evil. It would seem the change has more to do with them being cursed to walk the Eberron and to being able to return to Syrania since it would take pretty strong magic to prevent an outsider returning to their plane of existence and would take one of the stronger Outsiders to do that.

But it would agree that it would seem like in Eberron that given enough time an Outsider seems to change to fit their circumstances. Like Korliac of the Gray Flame has some nice changes to his abilities compared to a normal Pit Find but the question is if those abilities because his circumstances or are they that way because of his Forbidden Knowledge. Or a better example would be Thelestes; she gains Call Weaponry and Invisibility ability at will for the ability to call other demons since her hatred of other demons.

The whole thing is there is no real mechanic for dealing with the changes an Outsider might have when they change. And I doubt that the change would be instant and would most likely take hundreds of years if not thousands of years. And more drastic that change in outlook and circumstance the more drastic the change should happen to the outsider. A Balor that change to lawful good that defends innocents should not be recognizable as a Balor in a few centuries.
Hellcow
12-10-06, 01:38 PM Just checked, the Radiant Idol does not have the Evil subtype, it is, in fact, only an Outsider (Native).

To the OP, as I understand it, a creature with alignment subtypes keeps those subtypes, regardless of alignment.
These two statements contradict each other, ChimericalWolf.

The Radiant Idol was ONCE an angel of Syrania. As such, it ONCE possessed the Lawful and Good alignment subtypes. So, it hasn't gained the evil subtype (which seems odd to me, but there it is) - but it has definitely lost the Good subtype.

In its case, it has lost the extraplanar subtype because it has been banished. It the pit fiend is still an inhabitant of the planes, it wouldn't have this problem. But I think the Radiant Idol still shows that an outsider that changes its alignment loses its subtypes. The point OF the alignment subtypes is to say that this creature is a fundamental embodiment of this concept, in a way a normal creature can't every be. As such, if the pit fiend ceases to be evil, it no longer embodies evil (which is what the subtype represents). It may not become an embodiment of good, which is what it would take to gain the Good subtype--among other reasons, because if it did become an embodiment of Good, it might cease to be a pit fiend--but it is no longer an embodiment of evil.

Again, just my opinion, but certainly the philosophy I'm using whenever I design outsider material for Eberron. For an outsider, philosophy and physicality are far closer than they are for mortals - and the subtype reflects this primal bond between the two.
ChimericalWolf
12-10-06, 01:46 PM Oh, Mr. Baker, I didn't really intend those two statements to be linked. I suppose I should have broken them a bit more.

As to the Angel -> Idol, I wouldn't so much think of that, mechanically, as an Outsider (Good) looking it's (Good), and more of the Angel turning into a new creature, one that's only (Native)

From a purely mechanical standpoint, A Balor is a Balor, no matter the alignment, while an Idol is it's own, non (Evil) creature, regardless of it's fluff origin story.
Hellcow
12-10-06, 02:13 PM From a purely mechanical standpoint, A Balor is a Balor, no matter the alignment, while an Idol is it's own, non (Evil) creature, regardless of it's fluff origin story.
And that's where we differ in opinion. In my campaign, the balor IS it's alignment... or at the least, the alignment subtype is the reflection of a primal bond to an alignment that a normal, mortal creature cannot possess. It's not that I have an evil blood type, or evil DNA, or something like that. It's that the creature with an evil subtype is a living embodiment of evil - and if it ceases to be evil, it will lose the subtype, even if it ends up remaining a balor in form. And as I said before, a good balor won't necessarily gain the GOOD subtype, if it is not a true embodiment of good as an angel is... and if it becomes a true embodiment of good, it might cease to be a balor.

In your opinion, this may simply be a fluff origin story. In my opinion, this fluff origin story is a critical part of explaining how outsiders behave within the setting. The Radiant Idol is NOT just it's own unique creature: it is a being that was ONCE an angel, an extraplanar outsider with the Lawful and Good subtypes. At the end of the day, the decision is in the hands of the individual DM. *I* would say that a balor who ceases to be evil would lose the Evil subtype. You'd have it keep the subtype. And that's OK. :)

Just as a side note, I recognize that our difference here may be a question of fluff versus defined mechanics. But my point is that this is the Eberron board, not simply D&D mechanics - hence, IMO, the Eberron fluff is relevant here.
Hellcow
12-10-06, 02:43 PM As a side note, I hope I don't come across as snide or "This is how things should be" here. I'm doing a lot of things at the moment, and I'm somewhat distracted. ChimericalWolf, I certainly respect your opinion, and it's a perfectly valid approach to take. I simply prefer to make outsiders very primal and symbolic creatures, hence this is how I approach it in my campaign.

But that doesn't mean you're wrong if you do things differently!
Charles Phipps
12-10-06, 02:52 PM In my interpretation of Eberron fiends and GREATER divinities on this world are absolute embodiments. Khyber is the embodiment of pure evil, Siberys is the embodiment of pure good, and Eberron is the embodiment of Balancing them to create the multitude of life that is the average being on Eberron. They're very clearly abstracts and so are the majority of their celestial creations.

The Sovereign Host on the other hand are elevated Dragons created by the Three Gods working in concert to influence the mortal races (at least in my game) and far more Greek or Norse like than the above beings. As such they're essentially possessed of free will. It's why Dol Arrah (An archangel like goddess) is noble and pure but Dol Dorn (more like Thor as one player describes him) is pretty much the god alcohol, tobacco, and firearms.

In my games, the falling of an angel or "rising" of a fiend is usually by contact with a human mindset that can twist their natural existence.
DragonWatcher
12-11-06, 10:09 AM The concept of a balor shrugging free of evil, and being embraced by the light... transforming into a solar is something that I can't believe that I've never thought of before. A transformation brought on by redemption... or corruption in the case of a solar who's zealotry to destroy evil turns him into the thing that he hates the most... a balor.

Holy :censored: that's a great idea... and a cool story seed (either way) for a high level story!

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
SaiDeathSpoon 12-09-06, 06:25 PM	Quick question here: Let's say there's a Lawful Good Balor. For purposes of things like favored enemies, bane weapons, etcetera, would they be considered Outsiders (Chaotic, Evil) or Outsiders (Lawful, Good)? Does alignment have any bearing on their actualy type? The same goes for Neutral Evil Archons, Chaotic Good Yugoloths, etc.
Kaizer_Ryu 12-09-06, 07:05 PM	IMO, the "always <insert alignment>" means "the odds of finding one not this are incredibly slim". So long as you can justify their rebellion against their species given alignment, I say screw the MM's alignment restriction. Demons may be the embodiment of evil, and angels the embodiment of good, but a demon can be redeemed and an angel can fall. Drow are "evil subterranian elves", but just look at Drizzt. Yes, I know he's busy slaughtering his legions of clones, but they deserve it. :P :D As far as what they would be considered, for your example I say Outsider (Lawful, Good). His type remains the same, but his alignment has changed. Weapons would function accordingly.
Alex_ 12-09-06, 07:33 PM	The Eberron rules say that any creature can be any alignment and also suggest that alignment is not the straightjacket it may be in other games, and that good aligned characters can perform some more questionable acts at times while still remaining good. However... I don't think it applies as readily to creatures who are supposed to be -insert alignment here- incarnnate. The material plane isn't aligned to any particular alignment, which makes it much easier to be lawful good or chaotic evil. Beings spawned on other planes with stronger influences should have a much harder time of it. Almsot like an animal or Vermin trying to be anything but neutral. I think making Devils and Demons good and making Angels and Celestials evil as mortals are without some more dramatic consequences. Neutral perhaps, but not a totally polar opposite. Afterall, isn't there a kind of Demons/Devil that's supposed to come from fallen Angels? That would suggest that there is more to an these creatures being good than simply their personal outlook on life. I'd expect that changing alignment should also change spell-like abilities. I don't think the "Evil Drow" comparison is valid. Drow are just as mortal as any other of the humanoid races. They have a tendancy (often both psychologically and culturally it seems) to be cruel and less sympathetic than the other races, but they aren't the physical embodiment of those properties as many outsiders are. Not that Demons and Devils should never be allowed to be an alignment other than what the MM lists, I think such changes should trully take into account the possible reprecussions that are more than, "This individual is just different from others of their kind" that is more reasonable with creatures from the material plane. There has to trully be some extreme circumstances.
Vikjunk 12-09-06, 07:35 PM	I would say it would be still considered Outsider (Chaotic, Evil) since just because it changes alignment doesn't mean that they would lose or change their subtypes and Bane and Favored Enemy are based of those subtypes. You would have to do a Ritual of Alignment from Savage Species to change it and it isn't cheap. There are plenty of Outsiders that don’t have an alignment subtype but are still have alignment that say always in them. Xill are always Lawful Evil, Shadow Mastiffs are always Neutral Evil, and Rakshasas are always Lawful Evil just to name a few Outsiders that don’t have alignment subtypes. This kind of sucks since there are a few creatures who you will never be able to use Bane or Favored Enemy since there are a few Outsiders and Humanoids that don’t have subtypes.
Salla 12-09-06, 09:13 PM	Yes ... a creature that is Lawful Good with the Chaotic and Evil subtypes is treated as 'all of the above' as regards to effects that care about alignment. It recieves extra damage from axiomatic, anarchic, holy and unholy weapons, is affected by every Protection From Good/Evil/Law/Chaos spell, etc.
Hellcow 12-10-06, 12:33 PM	Eberron does allow creatures to be of any alignment, regardless of MM statement. However, in my opinion, there are categories of creatures that ARE likely to follow a set alignment, and outsiders are at the top of the list. IMO, an outsider isn't simply an alien creature, like a klingon or romulan, that still has a fundamentally human outlook on the world. Instead, an outsider is an embodiment of an idea. It IS evil given form, not simply a big scaly winged thing that happens to have embraced evil. With that said, angels can fall, and as the kalashtar show, quori can rise. But by traditional mythology, what are demons if not fallen angels? My point being, that if the outsider is an idea given form, when it deviates from that idea, it may fundamentally and physically change. A key example of this that already exists is the Radiant Idol (from the Sharn sourcebook), which is a fallen angel of Syrania. I don't have the sourcebook at hand, but I believe that the Radiant Idol has the evil subtype... in spite of having begun its existence as a creature with the good subtype.
ChimericalWolf 12-10-06, 01:21 PM	A key example of this that already exists is the Radiant Idol (from the Sharn sourcebook), which is a fallen angel of Syrania. I don't have the sourcebook at hand, but I believe that the Radiant Idol has the evil subtype... in spite of having begun its existence as a creature with the good subtype. Just checked, the Radiant Idol does not have the Evil subtype, it is, in fact, only an Outsider (Native). To the OP, as I understand it, a creature with alignment subtypes keeps those subtypes, regardless of alignment. So your Lawful Good Balor would still have the Chaotic and Evil subtypes, and like Salla said, is affected by all effects that depend on alignment.
Vikjunk 12-10-06, 01:22 PM	Radiant Idol are a little weird. They don’t gain the evil subtype but they do gain the native subtype. And in their description they are described as not all being evil. It would seem the change has more to do with them being cursed to walk the Eberron and to being able to return to Syrania since it would take pretty strong magic to prevent an outsider returning to their plane of existence and would take one of the stronger Outsiders to do that. But it would agree that it would seem like in Eberron that given enough time an Outsider seems to change to fit their circumstances. Like Korliac of the Gray Flame has some nice changes to his abilities compared to a normal Pit Find but the question is if those abilities because his circumstances or are they that way because of his Forbidden Knowledge. Or a better example would be Thelestes; she gains Call Weaponry and Invisibility ability at will for the ability to call other demons since her hatred of other demons. The whole thing is there is no real mechanic for dealing with the changes an Outsider might have when they change. And I doubt that the change would be instant and would most likely take hundreds of years if not thousands of years. And more drastic that change in outlook and circumstance the more drastic the change should happen to the outsider. A Balor that change to lawful good that defends innocents should not be recognizable as a Balor in a few centuries.
Hellcow 12-10-06, 01:38 PM	Just checked, the Radiant Idol does not have the Evil subtype, it is, in fact, only an Outsider (Native). To the OP, as I understand it, a creature with alignment subtypes keeps those subtypes, regardless of alignment. These two statements contradict each other, ChimericalWolf. The Radiant Idol was ONCE an angel of Syrania. As such, it ONCE possessed the Lawful and Good alignment subtypes. So, it hasn't gained the evil subtype (which seems odd to me, but there it is) - but it has definitely lost the Good subtype. In its case, it has lost the extraplanar subtype because it has been banished. It the pit fiend is still an inhabitant of the planes, it wouldn't have this problem. But I think the Radiant Idol still shows that an outsider that changes its alignment loses its subtypes. The point OF the alignment subtypes is to say that this creature is a fundamental embodiment of this concept, in a way a normal creature can't every be. As such, if the pit fiend ceases to be evil, it no longer embodies evil (which is what the subtype represents). It may not become an embodiment of good, which is what it would take to gain the Good subtype--among other reasons, because if it did become an embodiment of Good, it might cease to be a pit fiend--but it is no longer an embodiment of evil. Again, just my opinion, but certainly the philosophy I'm using whenever I design outsider material for Eberron. For an outsider, philosophy and physicality are far closer than they are for mortals - and the subtype reflects this primal bond between the two.
ChimericalWolf 12-10-06, 01:46 PM	Oh, Mr. Baker, I didn't really intend those two statements to be linked. I suppose I should have broken them a bit more. As to the Angel -> Idol, I wouldn't so much think of that, mechanically, as an Outsider (Good) looking it's (Good), and more of the Angel turning into a new creature, one that's only (Native) From a purely mechanical standpoint, A Balor is a Balor, no matter the alignment, while an Idol is it's own, non (Evil) creature, regardless of it's fluff origin story.
Hellcow 12-10-06, 02:13 PM	From a purely mechanical standpoint, A Balor is a Balor, no matter the alignment, while an Idol is it's own, non (Evil) creature, regardless of it's fluff origin story. And that's where we differ in opinion. In my campaign, the balor IS it's alignment... or at the least, the alignment subtype is the reflection of a primal bond to an alignment that a normal, mortal creature cannot possess. It's not that I have an evil blood type, or evil DNA, or something like that. It's that the creature with an evil subtype is a living embodiment of evil - and if it ceases to be evil, it will lose the subtype, even if it ends up remaining a balor in form. And as I said before, a good balor won't necessarily gain the GOOD subtype, if it is not a true embodiment of good as an angel is... and if it becomes a true embodiment of good, it might cease to be a balor. In your opinion, this may simply be a fluff origin story. In my opinion, this fluff origin story is a critical part of explaining how outsiders behave within the setting. The Radiant Idol is NOT just it's own unique creature: it is a being that was ONCE an angel, an extraplanar outsider with the Lawful and Good subtypes. At the end of the day, the decision is in the hands of the individual DM. I would say that a balor who ceases to be evil would lose the Evil subtype. You'd have it keep the subtype. And that's OK. :) Just as a side note, I recognize that our difference here may be a question of fluff versus defined mechanics. But my point is that this is the Eberron board, not simply D&D mechanics - hence, IMO, the Eberron fluff is relevant here.
Hellcow 12-10-06, 02:43 PM	As a side note, I hope I don't come across as snide or "This is how things should be" here. I'm doing a lot of things at the moment, and I'm somewhat distracted. ChimericalWolf, I certainly respect your opinion, and it's a perfectly valid approach to take. I simply prefer to make outsiders very primal and symbolic creatures, hence this is how I approach it in my campaign. But that doesn't mean you're wrong if you do things differently!
Charles Phipps 12-10-06, 02:52 PM	In my interpretation of Eberron fiends and GREATER divinities on this world are absolute embodiments. Khyber is the embodiment of pure evil, Siberys is the embodiment of pure good, and Eberron is the embodiment of Balancing them to create the multitude of life that is the average being on Eberron. They're very clearly abstracts and so are the majority of their celestial creations. The Sovereign Host on the other hand are elevated Dragons created by the Three Gods working in concert to influence the mortal races (at least in my game) and far more Greek or Norse like than the above beings. As such they're essentially possessed of free will. It's why Dol Arrah (An archangel like goddess) is noble and pure but Dol Dorn (more like Thor as one player describes him) is pretty much the god alcohol, tobacco, and firearms. In my games, the falling of an angel or "rising" of a fiend is usually by contact with a human mindset that can twist their natural existence.
DragonWatcher 12-11-06, 10:09 AM	The concept of a balor shrugging free of evil, and being embraced by the light... transforming into a solar is something that I can't believe that I've never thought of before. A transformation brought on by redemption... or corruption in the case of a solar who's zealotry to destroy evil turns him into the thing that he hates the most... a balor. Holy :censored: that's a great idea... and a cool story seed (either way) for a high level story!