Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kalanth 07-27-06, 10:04 AM	I was laying out a final battle for my present plot line in our Eberron game and wanted to present the idea here. I am looking to see if you think this idea is a bit over the top and rediculously hard for a party of lvl 11's. ________________________ There is a raiding party of demons that had snuck into Sharn over the course of two weeks (using change self, polymorph, etc). These demons are now charging to the top of Lyrandar Tower (airship tower) in hopes to rush through a conterminous zone to the plane of Fernia (Plane of Fire). The number of demons alone is well more than any group of lvl 11's could handle alone. However, the number the players will actually fight is much smaller (12 in total) and they will have support of a platoon of special ops (character lvl) NPC's at their aid. These troops will be commanded by a former comrade of the players (my character before I took over the game as DM, this is that characters first reappearence since I took over). To follow are the steps of the battle as they will be presented to the players. Round 1 – The demons engage the base of the tower. By sheer number they will overwhelm the guards at the base. Sky coaches will begin to take on passengers in a hurried fashion, acting as life rafts for those stranded at the top of the tower. Round 2 – The tower will shudder from a strong impact against the base, this will send several sky coaches scattering as they flee the area. Half of the coaches will have retreated from the area. Round 3 – The city guard at the base of the tower has been overwhelmed and the demons have split and begun their ascension of the tower. Round 4 – The demons continue to climb the tower while those at the base have split once more, and the more powerful are now attacking a nearby tower. Round 5 – The demons are now half way up the tower. They are covering the ground rapidly because they are not all restricted to the stairwells. Their original force of 30 is now down to 23. Round 6 – Nearly to the top of the tower, the force is now reduced to 17. A echoing crack can be heard and a southern tower begins to sway sickeningly. Round 7 – The demons have arrived at the top of the tower and begin to engage the players and Renarr’s men. The demonic force that has charged the top of the tower is now down to 12, though the Vrock leader is still in charge of the horde. Round 8 – Before the first person moves on this round the south tower falls as another crack can be heard. The base and supports of the tower have snapped and send this massive structure (seemingly a tower designed for housing) toppling over. There is a 25% chance the tower will crash into Lyrandar Tower. If the towers collide then the damage dealt will be 20d10 to Lyrandar Tower. On impact of the tower all players, demons, and NPC’s must make a DC 15 Reflex save or fall prone. Any near the edge must save or fall to their death. Round 9 – The demons at the base will have turned their attention onto another of the towers surrounding Lyrandar Tower. Repeat the tower actions from Rounds 6 – 8 and continue the battle as normal. Lyrandar Tower – Hardness 10 / HP 1000 • 150 dmg players must make a DC 15 Reflex save or fall prone (to death if near the edge). o 5% chance the tower will Collapse, if any Sky Coaches are near the tower each player may make a DC 20 Reflex save to grab onto a Sky Coach safely. • 300 dmg players must make a DC 16 Reflex save or fall prone (to death if near the edge). o 10% chance the tower will Collapse, if any Sky Coaches are near the tower each player may make a DC 20 Reflex save to grab onto a Sky Coach safely. • 450 dmg players must make a DC 17 Reflex save or fall prone (to death if near the edge). o 15% chance the tower will Collapse, if any Sky Coaches are near the tower each player may make a DC 20 Reflex save to grab onto a Sky Coach safely. • 600 dmg players must make a DC 18 Reflex save or fall prone (to death if near the edge). o 20% chance the tower will collapse. All Sky Coaches have fled the area by this time resulting in death for any persons on the tower when it collapses. • 750 dmg players must make a DC 19 Reflex save or fall prone (to death if near the edge). o 25% chance the tower will collapse. All Sky Coaches have fled the area by this time resulting in death for any persons on the tower when it collapses. • 900 dmg players must make a DC 20 Reflex save or fall to their death. o 30% chance the tower will collapse. All Sky Coaches have fled the area by this time resulting in death for any persons on the tower when it collapses. • 1000 dmg results in the tower collapsing. Roll 1d8 to determine the direction the tower falls. Any persons on the tower when it collapses will die on impact with the ground. If the tower falls South East, South, or South West it will topple over the edge of the district and fall to one of the many lower levels of the city.
Grymar 07-27-06, 10:31 AM	Wow, lethal, but damn cool if they survive.
Sereno 07-27-06, 10:38 AM	The scenario does seem like it would work. However, and I might be wrong about this, but it sounds to me like the PCs are largely in the back seat on this one. 1) Command of the "event" will be in the hands of an NPC (or, dare I say it, DMPC). and 2) The PCs will only survive because of a large amount of NPC support, control of which will largely be out of their hands. Might I suggest going with a smaller number of demons with a more focused demon vs. players scenario? Make it so that ONLY the PCs stand between this team of demons and destruction of certain towers. This makes the PCs the heros and not "part of the crowd". Also, if the demons are just trying to get into Fernia, why not let them? Why oppose creatures that are just trying to leave? It makes less sense that the demons would go through all of this destruction and drawing attention to themselves if they're trying to get out....
Logos7 07-27-06, 10:52 AM	THe Number of Demon's first of all, shouldn't they be summoning something or other, i mean if this is the most important thing to them, (as well as summons with a group of them become a sure fire thing) but also if the demon's aren't really interested in the PC's i'd say that requirement for a troop of highly trained demon fightin city guards probably aint necessary, HAve house deneth have 2 dozen level 1 fighters their, something the PC's can use but should in no way overpower or awe the center of the show, also your former PC shouldn't touch a sword, that's PC terrirtory, have him be busy commanding the level 1 guys and relaying info, thing's that are beneth your pc's That said if your demons just want to jump to fernia . screw PC's have them run away, avoid fighting, settting the room the pc's are in on fire, random spelllikes that make it hard (but not impossible) for the PC's to fight back effectively. Your PC's are trying from what you said in your original post to hold back the demonsn and this is something best done by smart and critical thinking and timing, You might want to space out your round by round count down to a minuete by minute count down. It gives the PC's times to finish a short combat i find and actually think more than just hacking things to bit and be overrealmed really, that and as fast as demons are, the difference between 1 min (10 rounds) and 10 minutes is not a lot in game, but adds some credibility. You have resistance, i doubt your going to bypass every floor or whatnot in 6 seconds ( Even with Potions of Gaseous form, fly, darkness, spores and Summon friends) Anyway my 2 cents, this sounds kewl, dont let the paperwork get in your way Logos
Kalanth 07-27-06, 10:55 AM	2) The PCs will only survive because of a large amount of NPC support, control of which will largely be out of their hands. Might I suggest going with a smaller number of demons with a more focused demon vs. players scenario? Make it so that ONLY the PCs stand between this team of demons and destruction of certain towers. This makes the PCs the heros and not "part of the crowd". I had that concern there. The NPC's actually take the back seat here. There are only four of them, the highest being Renarr (Gnoll 4). I am thinking that the guards will actually be wipped out in the first round, maybe two, when the guards reach the top of the tower. However, I will reduce their roll even further with this concern in mind. Last thing I want to do is give glory to an old character of mine when I am known for focusing on the players. Also, if the demons are just trying to get into Fernia, why not let them? Why oppose creatures that are just trying to leave? It makes less sense that the demons would go through all of this destruction and drawing attention to themselves if they're trying to get out.... It makes less sense only because of the lack of detail on current events provided. The opposition is in place because the players are trying to prevent them from getting to Fernia. If the demons reach the plane of fire they will have the last ingredient needed to create a potion that will remove the lichdom from Vol herself. It is a much more complex plot than that simple breakdown, but trust me when I say I have a reason for the demons to be helping her. Since this is the end of a plot line and I wanted to move into a new plot line that will take the game in a new direction. Hence such an epic ending to the plot line. :D
Kalanth 07-27-06, 11:03 AM	but also if the demon's aren't really interested in the PC's i'd say that requirement for a troop of highly trained demon fightin city guards probably aint necessary, HAve house deneth have 2 dozen level 1 fighters their, something the PC's can use but should in no way overpower or awe the center of the show, also your former PC shouldn't touch a sword, that's PC terrirtory, have him be busy commanding the level 1 guys and relaying info, thing's that are beneth your pc's I like this idea, and I think that is just what I will do. I planted the former character there because he had become a wives tale since I took over (player created, no less). The tale says that if he is around, the ship will sink, the cave collapse, and the building crumble because he is that bad at doing his job. I figured to see him about would bring the though of doom and gloom without much outside influence. :) That said if your demons just want to jump to fernia . screw PC's have them run away, avoid fighting, settting the room the pc's are in on fire, random spelllikes that make it hard (but not impossible) for the PC's to fight back effectively. Your PC's are trying from what you said in your original post to hold back the demonsn and this is something best done by smart and critical thinking and timing, You might want to space out your round by round count down to a minuete by minute count down. It gives the PC's times to finish a short combat i find and actually think more than just hacking things to bit and be overrealmed really, that and as fast as demons are, the difference between 1 min (10 rounds) and 10 minutes is not a lot in game, but adds some credibility. You have resistance, i doubt your going to bypass every floor or whatnot in 6 seconds ( Even with Potions of Gaseous form, fly, darkness, spores and Summon friends) I could do this. Stretching it out in such a manner seems a bit daunting to me because these guys have a tendency to be fast in combat. The demons have entered Sharn through subterfuge, change self, polymorph, things like that. I can easily see them summoning more as they move up the tower, so the numbers can be changed (I did not want to overwhelm them with demons). I also invisioned the demons climbing the sides of the tower as well as the stairs, but I can see the need for a touch more time. Finally my thoughts on the demons in the square are to cause distraction and choas for the sake of causing destruction and choas. I am running this tonight, but taking just about all suggestions into account since this is the craziest battle I have ever designed. Anyway my 2 cents, this sounds kewl, dont let the paperwork get in your way Logos Thanks, I try to make things interesting as often as I can.
DragonWatcher 07-27-06, 01:03 PM	I have questions. - First, you mentioned that there is a coterminous point to Fernia on Lyrandar tower. Is this something that the PCs know about? Will they be awaiting these creatures at the top of the tower, or will they be starting out at the bottom? - If they know about this, then why didn't they warn House Lyrandar, or did they? - Once the demons reach the top of the tower, why don't they just jump through to Fernia? At least one of them should completely ignore combat and rush the zone. - If their leader is a Vrock, why doesn't he just fly to the top of the tower (or teleport there... Vrocks can Greater Teleport at will)? For that matter, what are the other demons that you plan on using... because many demons can teleport? - Most of the towers in Sharn are described as being thousands of feet in diameter, with walls tens of feet thick at the base. While it might be possible to collapse some of the tops of the sub-towers in a few rounds... I don't really think that there's a snowball's chance in Fernia of a dozen or so demons doing enough damage to take one down at the base within 10 minutes... much less 10 rounds. This is especially true if you're not including an army of Balor in your pack of demons. What about something more realistic for the chaos-factor... like demons tossing innocent bystanders off towers, setting fire to merchant tents, using their spell-like abilities to have civilians attack one another, or even attack the party. I mean, what's the party going to do when innocent people are charmed into attacking them? They should realize that killing those people would be taking innocent lives. And a wave of innocent bystanders would do more to run interference for the demons that are trying to get to Fernia than wholloping at towers would do. Just some questions and thoughts. I like the basic premise... but if you want this to be truly memorable, it needs to focus on the players, AND have as few "plot holes" as possible. :)
Kalanth 07-27-06, 01:46 PM	- First, you mentioned that there is a coterminous point to Fernia on Lyrandar tower. Is this something that the PCs know about? Will they be awaiting these creatures at the top of the tower, or will they be starting out at the bottom? - If they know about this, then why didn't they warn House Lyrandar, or did they? The players have 30 days to learn about the Coterminous point, and there is plent of ways for them to learn about it. I fully expect them to learn about it and warn the city guard and house Lyrandar. That is the basic explanation of the prescence of the guard and the elite group at the top of the tower. The idea, though players twist things all the time, is that they wait for them at the top of the tower. My idea is more to catch them there unexpectedly (to the best of my ability). Maybe they are checking on the guard the day it is supposed to open and nothing has happened as yet and then, boom, things hit when they are up there. - Once the demons reach the top of the tower, why don't they just jump through to Fernia? At least one of them should completely ignore combat and rush the zone. I believe that was suggested earlier, and to make things more interesting I am planning on doing just this. Make the players have to stop the demons from getting through. This also gives need for the city guard to get through. - If their leader is a Vrock, why doesn't he just fly to the top of the tower (or teleport there... Vrocks can Greater Teleport at will)? For that matter, what are the other demons that you plan on using... because many demons can teleport? Originally it was because it was just a way of leveling the playing field. As I went through the idea, it became a tad more resonable for what they had. They are carrying fragile items that they need in Fernia inorder to create an arcane antidote. They could teleport, but if I am going to do that I wont allow it for them to teleport into the portal. Getting to the top is fine, but I am thinking it would build tension to have them climb. - Most of the towers in Sharn are described as being thousands of feet in diameter, with walls tens of feet thick at the base. While it might be possible to collapse some of the tops of the sub-towers in a few rounds... I don't really think that there's a snowball's chance in Fernia of a dozen or so demons doing enough damage to take one down at the base within 10 minutes... much less 10 rounds. This is especially true if you're not including an army of Balor in your pack of demons. The demons that stay at the base are unnumbered because they are not the threat that is immediate. I am rulling that when the last demon up top is slain then the ones below are slain. I am saying that there are nearly 200 - 300 demons around the base of the Lyrandar tower with only a small, necessary squad going up to the portal. I could say a few Balor are below, and only hope the players do not go after him, especially since he is much tougher than they are. - What about something more realistic for the chaos-factor... like demons tossing innocent bystanders off towers, setting fire to merchant tents, using their spell-like abilities to have civilians attack one another, or even attack the party. I mean, what's the party going to do when innocent people are charmed into attacking them? They should realize that killing those people would be taking innocent lives. And a wave of innocent bystanders would do more to run interference for the demons that are trying to get to Fernia than wholloping at towers would do. Something about bodies being tossed just does not feel epic enough for this moment. I mean, they win this battle and the plot line is over and we can start a new one. To me it is important to be as memorable as possible. Though I could add the demons tossing people as added flavor and chaos. Just some questions and thoughts. I like the basic premise... but if you want this to be truly memorable, it needs to focus on the players, AND have as few "plot holes" as possible. :) Of course, and that is why I am trying to gather resolution to those holes before we hit the session tonight. :)
DragonWatcher 07-27-06, 02:38 PM	First, let me just say that I do like the basic idea here, otherwise I wouldn't be commenting at all. :) The players have 30 days to learn about the Coterminous point, and there is plent of ways for them to learn about it. I fully expect them to learn about it and warn the city guard and house Lyrandar. That is the basic explanation of the prescence of the guard and the elite group at the top of the tower. The idea, though players twist things all the time, is that they wait for them at the top of the tower. My idea is more to catch them there unexpectedly (to the best of my ability). Maybe they are checking on the guard the day it is supposed to open and nothing has happened as yet and then, boom, things hit when they are up there. Honestly, it seems a bit contrived to me to make it coincidence. The other problem is that it really seems to downplay the work of the PCs. I mean, on one hand, the PCs have 30 days to find out about the zone, and then just 'happen' to be there at the right time? Secondly, if the PCs stand a credible chance to stop the demons, why not just wait for them to go away? What might be good is to have the PCs find out that the Zone will only be open for a certain period of time, on the day that the sun is directly over the tower. I don't know, maybe only an hour... perhaps a day. In any event, this allows the PCs to make a plan to ambush the demons, because they KNOW that if the demons want to use this zone, they can only do it from X to Y. It makes the heroes stand out as more heroic to me... instead of just lucky. I believe that was suggested earlier, and to make things more interesting I am planning on doing just this. Make the players have to stop the demons from getting through. This also gives need for the city guard to get through. Okay, so my question is, what is necessary to get through the zone? Will the demons have to fly above the tower? I would guess not, because then they could avoid the PCs altogether. If the zone is on the top of the tower, then wouldn't the top of the tower be covered by fire? I mean, coterminous means that the properties of both planes are there at the same time. This is why Fernia normally becomes coterminous in the corona of volcanoes, or in the middle of deserts, where the additional heat and flames might go completely unnoticed. However, if it is going to take place at the top of the tower, it would seem to me that the tower would become a giant torch, and anyone standing on the top will need some kind of protection from fire. How will the PCs be able to stop the demons from reaching the zone? Or will they have to battle the demons inside the zone? Originally it was because it was just a way of leveling the playing field. As I went through the idea, it became a tad more resonable for what they had. They are carrying fragile items that they need in Fernia inorder to create an arcane antidote. They could teleport, but if I am going to do that I wont allow it for them to teleport into the portal. Getting to the top is fine, but I am thinking it would build tension to have them climb. I agree that it would build tension, but let me ask you this: If your players had to go through even a bunch of lvl 1 kobold warriors (CR 1/3) to reach someplace, or they could teleport there at no cost... how would they get there? Especially if there was a time limit of some sort. Second question: if you were watching a movie where the badguy did something that would obviously lead to him being stopped, when he had the capability to circumvent the whole thing, would you find that a satisfying ending? I guess what I'm saying is that if you're handicapping the badguys just so that it's possible for the PCs to stop them (and you're players will likely know this), then it seems to me that you're not setting up a memorable epic scene that will be remembered as "Wow!", but instead you're setting up a scene that once the excitement wears off, will be remembered as, "Why the heck wasn't the Balor carrying the artifact through the zone instead of the weakling Vrock?". Especially for a story-ending encounter, this should be REALLY well thought out, and you should pull out all the stops for the badguys to win. That will be much more memorable. Perhaps the item in question needs to be held in Fernia for 10 consecutive rounds. Then the demons could get through by the players have to retreive the item before it's "charged". This is something that the players can have a direct impact on. Then teleportation is still allowed, but the demon has to defend it's location once it arrives. The demons that stay at the base are unnumbered because they are not the threat that is immediate. I am rulling that when the last demon up top is slain then the ones below are slain. I am saying that there are nearly 200 - 300 demons around the base of the Lyrandar tower with only a small, necessary squad going up to the portal. I could say a few Balor are below, and only hope the players do not go after him, especially since he is much tougher than they are. To be honest, I call bull :censored: here. The unnumbered demons are much more of an immediate threat than one that can restore Vol. Vol can be dealt with later, but if the demon army is powerful enough to collapse towers, then who the heck can stop them. And more to the point, why should they stop once the demons at the top escape? This seems to be MUCH too powerful for this scene. If you disagree, then certainly use it, but again, this puts the PCs in the role of helpless spectator, instead of someone that can do something to stop the threat. If you have even one Balor down there, I would still say that it wouldn't be powerful enough to bring down a single tower in sharn, even with a bunch of other demons beating at the tower. Not in 10 rounds. That would take the demons knowing a way to dispell (even temporarily) the Manifest Zone to Syrania in Sharn. Again though, if they could do this, then they could fly out of reach of most people, taking out towers. When people got close to stoping them, they teleport and take out towers in another section of the city. The PCs could do NOTHING about it, and Sharn could be destroyed. Furthermore, if nothing could stop them, then why would they stop? In my oppinion, they wouldn't. Again, I would also point out that if there is a single balor, it should be making the run on Fernia. Balors are fire demons, and if you have a tank like that, you use it where it does the most good. Something about bodies being tossed just does not feel epic enough for this moment. I mean, they win this battle and the plot line is over and we can start a new one. To me it is important to be as memorable as possible. Though I could add the demons tossing people as added flavor and chaos. I agree that you want this to be memorable... you just don't want it to be remembered as "Why didn't this happen?" and "If X was there, why didn't it...?". That can not only ruin a story, but it can also give the DM a reputation for either going easy on the PCs (which takes away from realistic story elements), or not knowing the material... neither one is good or fun. I like the basic seed here, but I think that the devil is in the details (pun very much intended). :D
Kalanth 07-27-06, 03:52 PM	First, let me just say that I do like the basic idea here, otherwise I wouldn't be commenting at all. :) Be as critical as you need to be, I am very receptive. Honestly, it seems a bit contrived to me to make it coincidence. The other problem is that it really seems to downplay the work of the PCs. I mean, on one hand, the PCs have 30 days to find out about the zone, and then just 'happen' to be there at the right time? Secondly, if the PCs stand a credible chance to stop the demons, why not just wait for them to go away? What might be good is to have the PCs find out that the Zone will only be open for a certain period of time, on the day that the sun is directly over the tower. I don't know, maybe only an hour... perhaps a day. In any event, this allows the PCs to make a plan to ambush the demons, because they KNOW that if the demons want to use this zone, they can only do it from X to Y. It makes the heroes stand out as more heroic to me... instead of just lucky. You are dead on hear, and I can't believe I never mentioned that. Completely my fault. I do have every intention of limiting to opening to X number of rounds. What I am thinking is about 20 - 30 rounds here. This takes into account the race to the top of the tower. Okay, so my question is, what is necessary to get through the zone? Will the demons have to fly above the tower? I would guess not, because then they could avoid the PCs altogether. If the zone is on the top of the tower, then wouldn't the top of the tower be covered by fire? I mean, coterminous means that the properties of both planes are there at the same time. This is why Fernia normally becomes coterminous in the corona of volcanoes, or in the middle of deserts, where the additional heat and flames might go completely unnoticed. However, if it is going to take place at the top of the tower, it would seem to me that the tower would become a giant torch, and anyone standing on the top will need some kind of protection from fire. The zone is on the top of the tower, the idea was infact to give the visual of a torch on the top of the tower. These guys have a large volume of elemental protection (heck, one is playing a youngling gold dragon thanks to Dungeon Magazine). The idea of fighting while bathed in flame should pose minimal threat, and they have the time to plan if it is more than just a small threat. This kind of thing poses more of a threat to the NPC's in the immediate area, and in that I am ruling that the towers surface is not fully engulfed as soon as the portal opens. Instead it spreads, rapidly, but spreads none the less. How will the PCs be able to stop the demons from reaching the zone? Or will they have to battle the demons inside the zone? I love your idea of battling inside the plane, and I think this would be a great addition to the battle. I am going to use your suggestion to a T actually, and assume they must hold this for ten rounds in Fernia. I agree that it would build tension, but let me ask you this: If your players had to go through even a bunch of lvl 1 kobold warriors (CR 1/3) to reach someplace, or they could teleport there at no cost... how would they get there? Especially if there was a time limit of some sort. Second question: if you were watching a movie where the badguy did something that would obviously lead to him being stopped, when he had the capability to circumvent the whole thing, would you find that a satisfying ending? I guess what I'm saying is that if you're handicapping the badguys just so that it's possible for the PCs to stop them (and you're players will likely know this), then it seems to me that you're not setting up a memorable epic scene that will be remembered as "Wow!", but instead you're setting up a scene that once the excitement wears off, will be remembered as, "Why the heck wasn't the Balor carrying the artifact through the zone instead of the weakling Vrock?". Especially for a story-ending encounter, this should be REALLY well thought out, and you should pull out all the stops for the badguys to win. That will be much more memorable. Basically what you are saying is don't hold back. Since I can fly and teleport, do it and let the players deal with it? Either way I know there will be moans from them (almost a tradition, but that is what they do with any DM). This should make things a touch more interesting, and you never know, maybe they will "commandeer" a sky coach to get at them. :) To be honest, I call bull :censored: here. The unnumbered demons are much more of an immediate threat than one that can restore Vol. Vol can be dealt with later, but if the demon army is powerful enough to collapse towers, then who the heck can stop them. And more to the point, why should they stop once the demons at the top escape? This seems to be MUCH too powerful for this scene. If you disagree, then certainly use it, but again, this puts the PCs in the role of helpless spectator, instead of someone that can do something to stop the threat. I really want to see those towers come down, that just gives it that special moment to me. It is what makes me excited. So here is what I am thinking, reduce the number, set a finite limit, and add a few Blood of Vol casters that can do things like Transmute Rock to Mud. Instead of gunning for the main body of the tower, they gun for the spires off the edges. Let those crash down around them, or pull a Trade Towers and hit the towers hard with a concentrated blast of arcane energy into the center. If I really need to find a reasonable explanation, I could say it is as a side effect / result of the zone to Fernia. That may be the most reasonable explanation for it. If you have even one Balor down there, I would still say that it wouldn't be powerful enough to bring down a single tower in sharn, even with a bunch of other demons beating at the tower. Not in 10 rounds. That would take the demons knowing a way to dispell (even temporarily) the Manifest Zone to Syrania in Sharn. Again though, if they could do this, then they could fly out of reach of most people, taking out towers. When people got close to stoping them, they teleport and take out towers in another section of the city. The PCs could do NOTHING about it, and Sharn could be destroyed. Furthermore, if nothing could stop them, then why would they stop? In my oppinion, they wouldn't. Again, I would also point out that if there is a single balor, it should be making the run on Fernia. Balors are fire demons, and if you have a tank like that, you use it where it does the most good. The concept of a Balor came when you mentioned it, I though "Hey, that may not be a bad idea." I have all the confidence in the world they will concentrate on the top of the tower, they see stopping the demons from getting the cure as top billing. So if I was to set it at 100 demons of a lower CR that would only threaten a mob of guards then we should be good, right? I agree that you want this to be memorable... you just don't want it to be remembered as "Why didn't this happen?" and "If X was there, why didn't it...?". That can not only ruin a story, but it can also give the DM a reputation for either going easy on the PCs (which takes away from realistic story elements), or not knowing the material... neither one is good or fun. I like the basic seed here, but I think that the devil is in the details (pun very much intended). :D These details are more devilish than expected, but I am working hard to pull this one off. Just the visual idea of seeing those towers come toppling down is a great visual, and something I will stubbornly hang to like a crack addict going for a dime. The how and why is up to change, though.
DragonWatcher 07-27-06, 04:11 PM	Be as critical as you need to be, I am very receptive. Good to hear... it's nice to be able to discuss this kind of thing like mature gamer-dorks that we are. ;) The zone is on the top of the tower, the idea was infact to give the visual of a torch on the top of the tower. These guys have a large volume of elemental protection (heck, one is playing a youngling gold dragon thanks to Dungeon Magazine). The idea of fighting while bathed in flame should pose minimal threat, and they have the time to plan if it is more than just a small threat. This kind of thing poses more of a threat to the NPC's in the immediate area, and in that I am ruling that the towers surface is not fully engulfed as soon as the portal opens. Instead it spreads, rapidly, but spreads none the less. Sweet... I like that visual. And the thought of having one or two burning airskiffs that the players can commendeer if necessary is also compelling. Once the fire catches to them, they might only have 1d10+1 rounds before they are consumed... actually, I would go for 2d6+2 (I couldn't see it happening sooner than 4 rounds)... which would give the PCs something to use... but not without inherent risk. That could be fun. I love your idea of battling inside the plane, and I think this would be a great addition to the battle. I am going to use your suggestion to a T actually, and assume they must hold this for ten rounds in Fernia. Thanks... I'm glad that I could offer something good. :D Basically what you are saying is don't hold back. Since I can fly and teleport, do it and let the players deal with it? Either way I know there will be moans from them (almost a tradition, but that is what they do with any DM). This should make things a touch more interesting, and you never know, maybe they will "commandeer" a sky coach to get at them. :) Exactly! This may mean using one or two demons, and some demon-possessed humans, or more weak demons than you originally had in mind, but construct the opposition in the scenario carefully so that you don't leave your players wondering why you used "kid-gloves". How about a Vrock leader with a number of infernal creatures, or human followers that the demon granted spell-like abilities. This way the minions still have to climb, and the Vrock wouldn't just pop in until it's minions got to the top. The anxiety builds as the cult climbs the tower, and after their first full round at the top, the Vrock shows itself. The humans could be supernaturally tough, which would really make your players wonder what's going on... it would be more of a mystery and surprise than seeing a bunch of red, cloven-hoofed creatures running up the tower. I really want to see those towers come down, that just gives it that special moment to me. It is what makes me excited. So here is what I am thinking, reduce the number, set a finite limit, and add a few Blood of Vol casters that can do things like Transmute Rock to Mud. Instead of gunning for the main body of the tower, they gun for the spires off the edges. Let those crash down around them, or pull a Trade Towers and hit the towers hard with a concentrated blast of arcane energy into the center. If I really need to find a reasonable explanation, I could say it is as a side effect / result of the zone to Fernia. That may be the most reasonable explanation for it. How about this... instead of an army of demons... the Emeral Claw (which you already have intended to support these demons), found an item that will sever the connection to Syrannia in a small(ish) area. This is the same kind of device that was used in Sharn during the Last War to bring the Crystal Tower down. The device is consumed when it's used (so they can't just go about things without stop), but figure that the collapse of a tower will distract the Sharn Watch from the events on the tower. So, you get to bring a tower (or a couple if you want several of these devices... but I wouldn't overdo it) down, but it's done by humans supporting the demons (much more inconspicuous). This focuses the battle with the heroes, while still allowing you to bring towers crashing around them. :) Plus, it gives a reason for the finite number of towers to come down, and it could even lead into another adventure for the PCs to find out how the towers came down in the first place. The concept of a Balor came when you mentioned it, I though "Hey, that may not be a bad idea." I have all the confidence in the world they will concentrate on the top of the tower, they see stopping the demons from getting the cure as top billing. So if I was to set it at 100 demons of a lower CR that would only threaten a mob of guards then we should be good, right? How about my suggestion above? These details are more devilish than expected, but I am working hard to pull this one off. Just the visual idea of seeing those towers come toppling down is a great visual, and something I will stubbornly hang to like a crack addict going for a dime. The how and why is up to change, though. Whatever you decide to do tonight... good luck! :D
Kalanth 07-27-06, 04:29 PM	Good to hear... it's nice to be able to discuss this kind of thing like mature gamer-dorks that we are. ;) I always found it better to be cooperative when being creative, than bullheaded. :) Sweet... I like that visual. And the thought of having one or two burning airskiffs that the players can commendeer if necessary is also compelling. Once the fire catches to them, they might only have 1d10+1 rounds before they are consumed... actually, I would go for 2d6+2 (I couldn't see it happening sooner than 4 rounds)... which would give the PCs something to use... but not without inherent risk. That could be fun. I don't see them as dry tinder, so I will go with 1d10+1 before consumption. I see them flying around like gnats, trying to rescue stranded passengers of airships and sky coaches. Just enough chaos to make them debate what action they need to take next. With five players, you never know just what is going to happen next. Thanks... I'm glad that I could offer something good. :D You kidding? You offered more than just a single good thing. Everyone in this thread has helped this evolve into a battle that they will quiver over when they tell the story. Exactly! This may mean using one or two demons, and some demon-possessed humans, or more weak demons than you originally had in mind, but construct the opposition in the scenario carefully so that you don't leave your players wondering why you used "kid-gloves". How about a Vrock leader with a number of infernal creatures, or human followers that the demon granted spell-like abilities. This way the minions still have to climb, and the Vrock wouldn't just pop in until it's minions got to the top. The anxiety builds as the cult climbs the tower, and after their first full round at the top, the Vrock shows itself. The humans could be supernaturally tough, which would really make your players wonder what's going on... it would be more of a mystery and surprise than seeing a bunch of red, cloven-hoofed creatures running up the tower. I think I got timid when I killed a guy that joined the game three sessions ago. On his third session he made a bad move, stepping in to do battle with a Brass Golem and was cut in two. Because of that I pulled in the reins the rest of the session, and I was mentally doing so again when planning this. I am tossing the kiddie gloves aside instead, and we are going all out. How about this... instead of an army of demons... the Emeral Claw (which you already have intended to support these demons), found an item that will sever the connection to Syrannia in a small(ish) area. This is the same kind of device that was used in Sharn during the Last War to bring the Crystal Tower down. The device is consumed when it's used (so they can't just go about things without stop), but figure that the collapse of a tower will distract the Sharn Watch from the events on the tower. So, you get to bring a tower (or a couple if you want several of these devices... but I wouldn't overdo it) down, but it's done by humans supporting the demons (much more inconspicuous). This focuses the battle with the heroes, while still allowing you to bring towers crashing around them. :) Plus, it gives a reason for the finite number of towers to come down, and it could even lead into another adventure for the PCs to find out how the towers came down in the first place. How about my suggestion above? Ding, fries are done! I love it. That ties in the plot wonderfully, and I can use the possesed humans as a tie-in to a previous plot line the players had gone through already (which ended in a complex battle in the caverns of the Monk Gateway to the Kalashtar city <names are escaping me all of a sudden>). I will stick to the three round countdown in this manner, and use two devices with a limit on how many towers they can effect. I am thinking, at 20d10 against a hardness of 10 it would take 4 towers to put the fear of god into them, and 5 to kill them outright. That is also why I built in the 25% chance of the tower missing. Still, that may be just a few to many, but that can be tweeked as I excitedly roll down the road here in about an hour. Whatever you decide to do tonight... good luck! :D Maybe when all is done I will just go ahead and post the entire plot line write-up here, or somewhere other than here. Since I started the write up (they were lvl 7) it has sprouted to 40 pages and very in depth. I think I need some heavy revision on treasure given during the plot (I have a rep of being stingy... Like Uncle Scrouge stingy), which is why I am giving them all something nice and juicy before they get to the tower sceen. Thanks again for all the help, I will post how it went soon!