Post/Author/DateTime	Post
AGM Illmater 02-28-05, 08:15 PM	I just started my first game in an Eberron Campaign, my DM allowed this, so I am running with it. I read up on how the Silver Flame nearly wiped out the Lycanthropes throughout the land. Well, I just created a WereBear Paladin of the Silver Flame. I thought it would add some nice hooks for the game. So far he has been fun to play, I was just looking for some idea's of where to take him. I am planning on going through 6 levels of Paladin, and then a few of Cleric, to augment my spells and turn undead. Then for a PrC, I was thinking about using the Bahumut (spelling) one, I can't remember everything about him, but he uses Red Dragon scales to make Platinum Armour, I think as a whole the character sounds pretty cool. Would appreciate any insights.
Vharuck 02-28-05, 08:19 PM	Ok, let me start off by saying that you're playing a very, very off-beat Eberron. There would be no lycanthropes in the Silver Flame. They're cursed. It's like a demon being a good priest. Can't happen. Also, red dragon scales are near impossible to come by, and wearing them is like wearing a sandwich board with a big bullseye on it.
AGM Illmater 02-28-05, 08:32 PM	No, the PrC I am reffering to allows me to work them, like metal in a forge and create Platinum Armour, I believe it is in the Book of Divine Deeds or something. I haven't bought it yet. And I know he is off beat, but I did read in the Eberron book about some Paladins of the Silver Flame helping WereBears, and of the Church after having seen a WB do good deeds allow it to live. So why not have a WB Paladin, I think it works.
SirLoin 02-28-05, 08:35 PM	Paladins of the Silver Flame are chosen by the flame. As I have read, one cannot simply say they are becoming a paladin of the silver flame. A Lycanthrope most definately would not get the call. But, to each their own.
Vharuck 02-28-05, 08:46 PM	No, the PrC I am reffering to allows me to work them, like metal in a forge and create Platinum Armour, I believe it is in the Book of Divine Deeds or something. I haven't bought it yet. And I know he is off beat, but I did read in the Eberron book about some Paladins of the Silver Flame helping WereBears, and of the Church after having seen a WB do good deeds allow it to live. So why not have a WB Paladin, I think it works. Because in the Inquisition, they didn't kill the lycanthropes because they were evil. They killed them because they saw lycanthropy as a disease that, when shapechanged, stole the victim's free will.
Kinger 02-28-05, 11:10 PM	Yeah, I'm going to have to side with the "sorry but no" crowd. The Inquisition targeted all (that's ALL) lycanthropes. There might have been a few in the church that helped "good" lycanthropes avoid it, but I don't think there is any justification in an actual lycanthrope saying "You know what? You may have hunted me and my kin to near-extinction, forced me into hiding and constant fear, and even tried to burn me on my way in today, but this paladin schtick sounds pretty cool. Sign me up!" I can understand Werebear Paladins. No problem with that at all. However, I have BIG problems with a Werebear Paladin of the Silver Flame. Now, perhaps it can be the classic "Become what I have most despised" routine, in which a fervent Flamer contracts Lycanthropy. That could work. BUT, he/she'd have to be an afflicted werebear, which isn't nearly as appealing, mechanics wise. And regarding the whole "craft with dragonscale" bit: Dragons is scarce in Eberron. Real scarce. There's probably only about a dozen true dragons roaming about Khorvaire (not counting manipulators from the Chamber or anything). As a result, it's not likely your dragonscale smith is going to have any materials to work with. It's like having fifty ranks in Profession: Software Engineer. That's dandy, but what's this komp-you-terr you speak of?
ekomega 02-28-05, 11:16 PM	The PrC you are looking for is called the Vassal of Bahamut, and it is in the Book of Exalted Deeds. However, there are three reasons I would not recommend this course of action. 1) As another player suggested, dragon scales are hard to come by. There aren't easy to find dragons in Eberron. And not only do you have to work the scales into armor, but your character has to kill a juvenile or older red dragon by himself. Let me tell you, that is not easy, especially when you have to travel halfway around the world just to find one, and he's probably got 20 friends nearby. And if you do manage to get in the class, all the dragons everywhere will want you dead. 2) The prestige class is all about killing dragons. Despite that it offers the best armor in the entire game, you will have little use for the other abilities because they are for hurting dragons a lot. When there are very few dragons, the PrC is pointless. 3) Part of the class is devoting yourself to Bahamut, and finding platinum coins every couple of levels that are given to you by Bahamut. There is no Bahamut in Eberron, and although some of the Sovereign Host might be substitutes, it doesn't fit. Plus, Bahamut rewards people who advance in the class and fight evil dragons, which is rather hard to do in Eberron. So I wouldn't recommend it. Besides all the Paladin Werebear things everyone else already said.
Edymnion 02-28-05, 11:20 PM	1) Paladins are extremely rare in Eberron. Your normal clergyman in a religion is an expert. Your normal priest is an adept. The holy warrior of their order is the Cleric. The Paladin is exceedingly rare, and is not something you can just be in Eberron. 2) The Silver Flame did it's damndest to destroy all lycanthropes in Eberron. They would not have allowed a werebear to become a paladin of the silver flame, they would have outright killed them the instant they realized what they were. 3) There are no dragons permanently residing on the main continent of the setting. They are all off on a far away continent overseeing the Prophecy. The chances that a PC is going to ever even SEE a dragon are next to nothing, much less actually fight one. They are plot devices in this setting, not monsters. 4) The reason it has killing a red dragon single handedly as a prereq is because Reds are evil in the default game. This is not true in Eberron. Creatures have loose alignments, you are as likely to find a Lawful Good red dragon as you are a chaotic evil one. Just killing a red is not a good thing, and is more likely to tick Bahamut off. 5) NO ONE outside of the Dragons even know Bahamut exists. None of the playable races even know that there are dragon gods, much less their names or mythos. 6) The character is a Paladin of the Silver Flame. He can't go claiming to worship Bahamut, even on the off chance that he hears of the god, and still be a part of the Silver Flame. You take that PrC, you pretty much have to forsake the Silver Flame, which means bye bye Paladinhood. Basically, you've got this entire setting completely wrong. This isn't Faerun, this isn't Greyhawk, Eberron is a whole new beast, with a whole new way of looking at the game. You can't just walk into the setting and play it like you were in any other setting, it doesn't work that way. Have a seat and read the Eberron Campaign Setting, you'll be glad you did.There is no Bahamut in EberronNot true, the entire draconic pantheon is in Eberron. But only the Dragons know they're there. You can even find a pair of constellations of Bahamut and Tiamat illustrated in the planes section of the ECS. Its just that, as Dragon gods, only the Dragons know they exist. And considering how rare Dragons are in Eberron, to the point the common man probably thinks they are just a fairy tale, there is 0% chance any character will have ever heard of Bahamut.
AGM Illmater 02-28-05, 11:21 PM	Well, as to the dragon smithing, as I said before, this is my first time playing the Eberron Campaign, so I am having to learn. And yes, my character is an afflicted Lycanthrope, I knew a natural would never make it, but figured an afflicted could. I have always liked taking character races, classes and abilities that normally should have no reason to be together and playing with it. That is why I have a Gnome Barbarian, a Half-Orc Bard, and of course my WB Paladin of the Silver Flame. Instead of just being stats, they are truly characters that require playing. I once had a Barbarian that just so happened to have no skills in any hiding, or sneaking around...but he thought he was this uber-sneaky thief. I had him sneak into a cults chapel and try to steal some enchanted armour. Through some great luck he managed to get in and grab the armour, but when he tried to leave he heard some acolytes coming, so he bolts for the door and runs. Stuff like that, he was an untrained Barbarian cleptomaniac. Sometimes you have to turn character types on their ears to get a truly unique one, while some may say that my character could never happen, look at the real world and see some of the weird things that happen right around us. Nothing is truly impossible, no matter how improbable it may at first seem.
Edymnion 02-28-05, 11:25 PM	Sometimes you have to turn character types on their ears to get a truly unique one, while some may say that my character could never happen, look at the real world and see some of the weird things that happen right around us. Nothing is truly impossible, no matter how improbable it may at first seem....but still, the combination you made is essentially the same as saying you made a character that was a black man in the KKK, or a Jewish Nazi. Doesn't matter how you explain it, that just isn't happening.
Delusionist 03-01-05, 12:12 AM	Or whatever his name is.
AGM Illmater 03-01-05, 12:27 AM	Okay, so I will most certainly have to give up the Bahamut PrC. I just didn't realize, I haven't read all the books yet. But your example of the KKK or Jewish Nazi, while close is not quite it. Remember, mine is afflicted, so he was not born with this "so called curse". Since the Silver Flame is not only about killing off Lycanthrope, they do have other callings, this Paladin could have been bitten and afterwards still chose to follow his churches beliefs. I have read other threads where you guys talk about how open this Eberron Campaign is, and how you should use the books as guidelines rather than ironclad rules. Why can't you guys see beyond what may seem to be the norm and try and flex a little. I don't mean to sound rude or anything, but you guys are setting to much stock on these "rules". This is supposed to be Role-Playing, well I created a rather unique roll to play, and while it may not work out, I want to see how it works. He could become a rogue (not the class) follower of the Flame. He still believes in the work they do, but because of what has happened to him he has to do his work outside the church. There are many ways this could be done, you just have to let your imagination have room to play.
Siran Dunmorgan 03-01-05, 01:06 AM	There is no Bahamut in Eberron, and although some of the Sovereign Host might be substitutes, it doesn't fit. Plus, Bahamut rewards people who advance in the class and fight evil dragons, which is rather hard to do in Eberron. Go take a look at the illustrations on pages 94 and 95 of the ECS; then re-visit the question of Bahamut's presence in—or near—Eberron. Admittedly, they are "just pieces of art", but their inclusion is nonetheless highly suggestive. —Siran Dunmorgan P. S. Why, exactly, would the Silver Flame not call a lycanthrope Paladin? Simply because it declared their presence in the world a work of evil and set about eradicating them does not mean that one of their number would not feel the call. There is no requirement that a Paladin be affiliated with the established Church; a great many Silver Flame paladins are orcish tribesfolk from the Demon Wastes, for example. The impression I get about paladins in Eberron is that they are called more or less directly by the deity, and not by the Church. For a werebear to wake up one morning, look around, and think "Slam Evil!" with the force of the Silver Flame behind it is not utterly without merit. It'd be a hard life—the life of any lycanthrope is hard—but it could be rewarding, depending on how much play your DM gives it. The really tough part would be convincing your mount not to panic. It's far more likely for your character to be called by Balinor than the Silver Flame, however—remember, Paladins can be called by any deity or belief. One of the "Ask Keith" responses, as I recall, even suggested that there were Paladins of the Blood of Vol. Now that would be interesting. —SD
Marshall Stone 03-01-05, 01:33 AM	From the Church of the Silver Flame pt. 2 Dragonshard article: Paladins are a special case. You cannot train to be a paladin: it is a spiritual calling. Many paladins learn basic skills outside of the Church, since the Voice of the Flame guides them. I can see no reason my the Silver Flame could not call a "naturally" lawful-good Were-Bear to it's service. Admittedly, I as DM, would say that you're character is Unique, the ONLY such paladin in existence (and probably likely to ever exist). Especially if the character was inflicted with lycanthrope. Actually the more I think about the more interesting and intriguing and idea. I don't know what kind of background you made up for your character. But I can picture something like a simple farming family in Thrane, believers of the Silver Flame with many children. A son in the family is particularly fervent and devout. Most say that he is even touched by the flame. As he grows into adulthood many come to expect that he will serve as a Cleric of the Silver Flame, some whisper that he has the bearings of a Paladin. The son being exposed to all this begins to believe that he is destined for great things; his pride is growing. Until one day (perhaps when Thelanis was coterminous) he goes into the woods after a lost animal. He comes across a bear and assumes it is trouble. He nocks a silver tipped arrow - one of many he has recieved over the years as tokens from various people - to his bow and with great Pride in himself and his destiny he shoots. It's a Critical Hit! Hitting the bear just under wear it's skull comes close to it's neck, the bear slumps down. The character thinks for sure he killed it, walks over with thoughts of how to best present this to his friends and family. Only the bear is not dead and as the character comes close the bear suddenly strikes out biting the character. The Bear, badly injured, tries to run off, but the character is able to nock a few more arrows into the Bear finally bringing in it down, only to watch in horror as the Bear transforms into a man. The character goes up to the man who saids, "I was just lost. I was just trying to find my way back home..." and then expires. But the character isn't really concerned with what the were-bear said, only that it was a were-bear and that he was bitten. He can't tell anyone, they'd do the same to him that he did to the were-bear, and besides he is destined to do great things. But he's heard the rumor about eating Belladonna and how it might prevent the infection it he survives the poison. He learns of where to find some of the herb deep in the forest and decides to try the cure one night after everyone's gone to sleep. While in the throes of pain and delirium he hears the voice of the Silver Flame which shows him how his Pride has led him to his downfall. The Silver Flame then offers the character the option to serve as a Paladin of the Silver Flame but as an afflicted were-bear as penance for the innocent life he took. The character is truly humbled and accepts the calling; knowing it'll be hardship. Anyways, it sounds like you've got a good idea of the character you want to play. But I would agree with the others about not taking that dragon killing PRC.
Rathis Darkwielder 03-01-05, 01:36 AM	P. S. Why, exactly, would the Silver Flame not call a lycanthrope Paladin? Simply because it declared their presence in the world a work of evil and set about eradicating them does not mean that one of their number would not feel the call. There is no requirement that a Paladin be affiliated with the established Church; a great many Silver Flame paladins are orcish tribesfolk from the Demon Wastes, for example. Because Lycantropy of this: Lycanthropy is the creation of the rakshasa rajah Bashalaera, a fiend with powers over the animal domain. Long ago, Bashalaera managed to reach beyond his bonds to infect mortals with his curse, causing them to succumb to murderous instincts - though a few noble souls were able to resist his influence and became the non-evil lycanthropes. As the lycanthropes spread the curse among the population, they also increased the power of the curse and the power of the rajah; in time, this would have allowed the rajah to break the bonds of the Flame. When it identified the source of the corruption, the church attacked it on two levels. The templars killed the lycanthropes themselves, and each death weakened Bashalaera and the power of his curse. The priests used prayer and faith to strengthen the bonds binding the rajah, isolating his ability to touch the world and further weakening the curse. For now, with so few lycanthropes in the world, those that are created are weaker. But if their numbers grew again, Bashalaera would gain greater strength, and the power of the curse would grow; eventually, afflicted lycanthropes would have the powers to match natural lycanthropes (and the powers of natural lycanthropes might be greater still). This is why the church fought even the non-evil lycanthropes - willing or not, knowingly or not, by their very existence they strengthened the curse. I highly doubt that the Silver Flame would call a being that has been infected with a demonic curse and is actually strengthening the demon with its very existance. Paladins are rare and for a demon-inflicted one to be called is next to impossible.
okaynowa 03-01-05, 04:52 AM	And again, Eberron is a "loose alignment" campaign-- there's no guarantee that all werebears are good. The inquisitors coming after you aren't going to give you a pass based on your stat block. Like entropy, lycanthropy will tend towards maximum (man, I love saying that). The werebear paladin would have to be sure that he doesn't spread the curse himself, or give in too far to bestial instincts. Even a well intentioned paladin could find himself at the center of an epidemic, and suffer for it. This character is the type of challenge I'd reserve for experienced players and DMs familiar with the campaign setting. If you're just starting out in Eberron, I'd say try something less wonky. You can play a bear-heritage shifter and get the same dramatic conflict without the rules wrangling.
MarkB 03-01-05, 05:30 AM	And again, Eberron is a "loose alignment" campaign-- there's no guarantee that all werebears are good. The inquisitors coming after you aren't going to give you a pass based on your stat block. Well, actually, all afflicted werebears will be lawful good, because the curse forces them to be - and this is, in fact, a large part of the problem: Lycanthropy twists a person's soul, imposing its own pattern over their true personality. That is a large part of why the Silver Flame think it's wrong. It doesn't matter that this particular curse is twisting the bearer's soul towards lawful-goodness - it's still distorting their soul, almost certainly preventing any chance of their merging with the Flame after death. Essentially, in the eyes of the Church of the Silver Flame, lycanthropy denies a person their rightful place in the afterlife. However, that doesn't mean they will hunt down or reject an afflicted lycanthrope in present times. Since the purge 75 years ago, afflicted lycanthropes can no longer pass on the curse, so he is no threat in himself. Instead, they will pity him, and probably do their best to cure his curse. If such a one were to hear the Voice of the Flame, they might consider it highly unusual, and would certainly be highly stringent in their tests at Flamekeep to confirm that he is hearing the genuine Voice, and they most likely would never fully accept or trust him. But they would acknowledge the truth of his status as a Paladin of the Silver Flame.
okaynowa 03-01-05, 06:18 AM	Hmm... I acknowledge and appreciate your points, Mark B. And yet, for my campaign at least, I still would disagree with the imposition of an LG alignment on all werebears. While I can accept that the curse changes behavior and temperament, I am disinclined to see it as completely fixed in terms of how it expresses itself (especially with expressions of morality). While my afflicted or natural werebear may be less aggressive or blood thirsty than other lycanthropes, I don't feel that automatically makes them Lawful Good. Maybe he's a shy Chaotic Evil. The upshot is still the same: the person has lost a measure of control over his own body, and the mind/soul suffers for it. No argument there. I merely prefer to remove the safety of the LG label, making assumptions dangerous on the part of the players.
MarkB 03-01-05, 01:03 PM	The upshot is still the same: the person has lost a measure of control over his own body, and the mind/soul suffers for it. No argument there. I merely prefer to remove the safety of the LG label, making assumptions dangerous on the part of the players. That's fair enough. I'd still make it an exception for the curse to not force the standard alignment - but there might be variant, mutant strains of the curse out there which assign different alignments to each animal.
Docrailgun 03-01-05, 01:11 PM	Yes, but we don't know that Bahamut really _exists_ in Eberron or not. There are priests of Dol Arrah who get spells from their faith, but we don't know for sure that Dol Arrah exists in Eberron either. The dragon pantheon could be stories told by the dragons, or could be dragon names for the gods the humans call "the Sovereign Host" and "The Dark Six". Go take a look at the illustrations on pages 94 and 95 of the ECS; then re-visit the question of Bahamut's presence in—or near—Eberron. Admittedly, they are "just pieces of art", but their inclusion is nonetheless highly suggestive. —Siran Dunmorgan —SD
ReivaxZerai 03-01-05, 02:48 PM	Why not reverse your backstory a bit. Your PC was a Paladin, and was *then* bit by a werebear. Now s/he has a story. How to remain a Paladin, how to hide the lycanthropic curse from fellow church goers, how to deal with the curse within yourself. That sounds like some interesting roleplaying. In the end, it's your game, do whatever you want, as long as it's rewarding for you. D&D books are recommendations, not straight-jackets.
KMFDM 03-01-05, 03:26 PM	I think ReivaxZerai hit it on the head. Warriors of the Silver Flame that would be hunting down Lycanthropes would discover some of their comrades falling to the disease. This is the sort of idea of "would you kill your friend?" I can see a Paladin trying to make amends trying to find grace in the Church by working harder (think Constantine) at hunting down more were's. Perhaps he is on a quest to find attonement and become purified of lycanthropy. But because Eberron is about shades of grey, what if the Paladin has discovered his new powers from the disease as helpful for hunting down more lycanthropy. He could warp his beliefs around the idea of using Lycanthropy to fight it, perhaps that is why he wouldn't use Remove Disease when he gains it. I think it would make for an interesting radical paladin.
Rathis Darkwielder 03-01-05, 03:36 PM	The problem stays: by his very existence, he makes the power of the curse and the Rashaka that created it grow. This would be unacceptable to a religion that is most of all opposing the Demons (like the one that was bonded in the Flame). Whether he knows it or not, likes it or not, by his very existence he is a threat to the entire world. A true paladin would sacrifice himself before he would allow himself to be used by a demon like that.
nyysjan 03-01-05, 03:45 PM	first i'd like to say that it is your game and you are allowed to play any character your DM allows even (i shudder to mention) a goody two shoes dual saber wielding drow if you think it would be fun. but personally if i was the DM in question i would forbid the said character it doesn't fit the setting and would disrupt the game.
MalkavX 03-01-05, 03:53 PM	I have to say that I like "common" backgrounds and then see my gamers grow from there. Playing such a demanding character takes a lot of experience, not only from gamer, but also from master alike. As gamer, you have to actually "role" and not "roll" your character. How is he feeling is he was afflicted after being named a paladin (be it by the church of higher power). I see a lot of potential here, but that character I would give the chance to play to someone who actually has knowledge about tha complete setting. Also, and the reason why I see "normal# backgrounds as easier, is not because they demand less, but that it is easier with them to explore the world to actually understand what is happening in it. I like the idea of seeing "normal people" actually become heroic and stand in the face of fate. That´s very inspiring and it keeps me motivated in the game. And the most potential I see is with the master for sure. As a DM you will have to constantly play that part of persecusion of the player. It will be like The Fugitive TV show, where the character can´t actually stay in one place. The Silver Flame in a way will turn into a Villain and if another gamer is a part of the Church, major role play will have to be asked by the master. It can be interesting for sure, but again, even thought I like that kind of game, I see that the DM has to spend a lot of energy and time in making all come together. And also, I would strongly recommend that you read throughly the books before trying to use something from them. The case of the Exalted Deeds you were citing but hadn´t actually read at the time of thinking on the game in Eberron is one good example. There may be ways of transforming such a class (Vassal of Bahamut) o you can search for one which is closer to Eberron setting, but before you come with ideas, it would be good if you are getting the whole picture. In any case, only your DM can tell you what is right or wrong in his/her campaign, and if you ask here, you will see answers that vary a lot, but for the most, they will be written "to maintain the essence of Eberron" in mind, and I agree if people tell me that you idea is quite not exactly what Eberron is about. And last, I don´t think any single creature is of certain alignment by default. In Eberron monsters have been presented in a way that you never actually know what to expect, and if it is clearly stated that there may be Evil Gold Dragons, I am certain that Werebears may have they share of evil charcters. It gets even better for the DM at this point to actually harrass the player with a constant troubles by the persecusion from the Church.
Altaris 03-01-05, 03:54 PM	Why not reverse your backstory a bit. Your PC was a Paladin, and was *then* bit by a werebear. Now s/he has a story. How to remain a Paladin, how to hide the lycanthropic curse from fellow church goers, how to deal with the curse within yourself. That sounds like some interesting roleplaying. In the end, it's your game, do whatever you want, as long as it's rewarding for you. D&D books are recommendations, not straight-jackets. I would very much agree with this statement. Paladins are special, and I happen to like the Constantine-reference. Even if the Paladin in question knows that the Cure of Lycanthropy makes some BOUND demon Rajah a bit stronger, I doubt the Paladin would sacrifice himself/herself. As a player and a DM, I would allow this concept. However, I would also make the characters life hell. ;) For those who knew of his/her affliction, they would spread the word and hunt down the werebeast, Paladin or not.
Draco Strang 03-01-05, 04:02 PM	I just wanna know where you got the Red dragon scales.
Cairn Stone 03-01-05, 04:08 PM	[QUOTE=AGM Illmater Sometimes you have to turn character types on their ears to get a truly unique one, while some may say that my character could never happen, look at the real world and see some of the weird things that happen right around us. Nothing is truly impossible, no matter how improbable it may at first seem.[/QUOTE] In Eberron, you don't have to turn character types on their ears to get a truly unique one. All of the races are unique and interesting in different ways in Eberron. I always seem to have one player every now and then who wants to be some "off the wall" race to be "unique". It's my opinion that characters should be unique because of background and personality, not just what race/class stat configuration they are. In your Paladin's case however, you do have some interesting background. It seems a very plausible concept to me that if a Church starts a genocidal inquisition against lycanthropes, it seems very likely that along the way some of the faithful carrying out the inquisition would be infected. However, suddenly now other problems arise. The Paladin more than likely(if he is truly faithful) sees himself as an abomination. Something that should be destroyed to prevent the afforementioned curse(of Bashalaera) from gaining strength in the world. Then again, the Church of the Silver Flame is full of corruption, so...which side of the line you find your character on either way will make sense in some respect. Your character is a Paladin serving a church that wants to destroy him to prevent an ancient evil from gaining power. With that in mind, how can your character continue to exist and truly serve the church? Just by existing, you are jeopardizing and endangering part of your church's mission; a very vital part at that. Ultimately your Paladin is breaking his covenant with the Church(at least in some way) by being alive. He is putting himself before others because by continuing to live, he is strengthening the curse of Bashalaera. How truly "Good" can your Paladin be if he is allowing the "Evil" of Bashalaera's curse to continue by remaining alive? It's not your Paladin's race that seems implausible to me, it's his Paladinhood. (and I don't mean to sound harsh, I'm just playing devil's advocate here)
Marshall Stone 03-01-05, 05:26 PM	It's been suggested by a few that a "True" paladin would likely end his own life rather than continue to be an agent of/used by a demon as a Were-Bear. The Problem I see with this is that such an act is Not a Good act. It is an act of sheer desperation that acknowledges the false concept that thier is absolutely NO Hope of any kind for the being. I'd suggest that a "True" lawful GOod Paladin that seriously contemplated such an act is endanger of loosing his Paladinhood because he would no longer be doing good; indeed seriously contemplating murdering one's self is as evil an act as seriously contemplating the murder of any other being. Which, IMHO, creates an Awesom opportunity for Role-Play. The paladin knows he's infected. He knows that his very existence HELPS that which his religion is constantly striving against; even if it is a miniscule amount of help (I highly doubt the entire world is in immediate dire danger because of any 1 were-creature). Yet in all GOOD conscience he can't take his own life, he can't quit, he can't give in to despair, for doing so would serve Evil itself. What is this paladin to do? Then, I can see, the Silver Flame "seeing" this tortured but devoted soul, deciding to call him to Paladin-hood. To use the tool of the devil against him (I'm suddenlty picturing the comic book character SPAWN here), and thereby compassionately giving this poor being some measure of relief, a purpose, and who knows maybe even a cure (Now I'm thinking of the Angel tv series and of the Shan-Shue prophecy which states how the vampire with a soul can become human again) one day. It would be a serious challenge to role-play, would you be up to it? or admit defeat before hand?
Cairn Stone 03-01-05, 05:48 PM	It's been suggested by a few that a "True" paladin would likely end his own life rather than continue to be an agent of/used by a demon as a Were-Bear. The Problem I see with this is that such an act is Not a Good act. It is an act of sheer desperation that acknowledges the false concept that thier is absolutely NO Hope of any kind for the being. I'd suggest that a "True" lawful GOod Paladin that seriously contemplated such an act is endanger of loosing his Paladinhood because he would no longer be doing good; indeed seriously contemplating murdering one's self is as evil an act as seriously contemplating the murder of any other being. Which, IMHO, creates an Awesom opportunity for Role-Play. The paladin knows he's infected. He knows that his very existence HELPS that which his religion is constantly striving against; even if it is a miniscule amount of help (I highly doubt the entire world is in immediate dire danger because of any 1 were-creature). Yet in all GOOD conscience he can't take his own life, he can't quit, he can't give in to despair, for doing so would serve Evil itself. What is this paladin to do? Then, I can see, the Silver Flame "seeing" this tortured but devoted soul, deciding to call him to Paladin-hood. To use the tool of the devil against him (I'm suddenlty picturing the comic book character SPAWN here), and thereby compassionately giving this poor being some measure of relief, a purpose, and who knows maybe even a cure (Now I'm thinking of the Angel tv series and of the Shan-Shue prophecy which states how the vampire with a soul can become human again) one day. It would be a serious challenge to role-play, would you be up to it? or admit defeat before hand? Well, seppuku was not considered evil, but was most certainly a form of suicide. It was sometimes the honorable thing to do to atone for some misdeed. It is in this light that I said what I said about this particular situation. Furthermore, nowhere in core D&D rules is it stated that suicide is an evil act. Especially not if by ending your own life, you accomplish something for the greater good, which in this case, you would. And that is what the Paladin is all about; self sacrifice for the greater good. This is not to say that the paladin could not accomplish some good by staying alive...but also and most importantly, by staying alive, he allows an evil curse inflicted ages ago by an EVIL rakshasa to continue, and thus threaten the world. As for the Paladin in question being only "one" lycanthrope and therefore not a dire threat, the problem here is that even one lycanthrope is a large threat. It only takes one lycanthrope to infect any given number of others, thereby spreading the curse and strengthening Bashalaera.
Siran Dunmorgan 03-01-05, 06:00 PM	Ultimately, your Paladin is breaking his covenant with the Church—at least in some way—by being alive. The impression I get from the various Ask Keith threads, FAQ, and descriptions in the ECS lead me to believe that a Paladin does not have a covenant with a Church per se, but with the worshipped force. It's not the Council of Cardinals who call a Paladin to service: it's the Flame. It's possible—as I understand it—to be a Paladin of the Silver Flame without ever speaking to another member of the Church. Now, the open question is whether the Flame itself regards all lycanthropes, everywhere, forever, as continuing objects of the Purge, or whether the Church does—if the former, then our hero is in for a lifetime of self-loathing, culminating in some spectacular act of self-sacrifice on behalf of the Flame. If the latter, well, then it's not much different from dealing with any other organization that has a grudge against you—any decent D&D group should have two or three of those anyway by the time they hit fifth level. —Siran Dunmorgan
Cairn Stone 03-01-05, 06:10 PM	Read this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041115a). Here is a quote from the Dragonshard article, that gets at the heart of the subject of this thread. "When the Church targets a problem, it seeks to completely eliminate it. The templars act with ruthless efficiency. In the case of lycanthropy, any lycanthrope can afflict a victim with a curse that alters behavior and alignment, and this makes the victim a threat to others and a new carrier for the curse. In 832 YK, the Keeper of the Silver Flame declared that lycanthropy afflicted the soul as well as the body, since it could turn the noblest soul to a tool of darkness. Even those lycanthropic strains that were not inherently evil still force a change of behavior on the subject, and were thus suspect; the Keeper declared that these still imperiled the soul. If a single lycanthrope remained alive, it could pass the curse to others, and they could pass the curse to others, and within a generation the problem could arise anew. Thus all lycanthropes -- even those seemingly innocent and young -- must be destroyed. A handful of paladins found alternatives. Some helped werebears escape to Lamannia, while others sought to cure the afflicted. Unfortunately, the process of breaking the curse is long and involved, and the Keeper of the Flame said that once the curse was set (via changing alignment), nothing could save the victim's soul. And so the templars relied on their silvered swords, cutting out the cancer and praying for forgiveness when innocents fell at their hands." I think that pretty much says it all. Could be interesting to work this Were-bear Paladin toward what is described in the last paragraph(curing the subject), but at that point of course, he ceases to be a lycanthrope.
Siran Dunmorgan 03-01-05, 07:34 PM	Read it again. "The Keeper of the Silver Flame declared..." Not "the Silver Flame declared." I submit that the Keeper of the Silver Flame is not the Silver Flame, nor even the Voice of the Silver Flame, and that it is the Silver Flame itself that calls the Paladin to service, not the Keeper of the Silver Flame, who is the head of the Church. Remember: the Silver Flame pre-dates the Church of the Silver Flame by something like ninety thousand years. If the Silver Flame in its wisdom should decide that a lycanthrope Paladin was what was needed to combat a growing evil in the world, an evil greater than the potential spread of lycanthropy, it is within its rights to call such a Paladin to service. There's a lot of good rôle-playing potential there in a campaign against the Dark Pack in Droaam, for example: the antagonists in such a scenario are already lycanthropes. If world-spanning adventure is our hero's cup of tea, then perhaps he could be instrumental in thwarting a Dark Pack plot to infect the giants of Xen'drik with lycanthropy... mmmm.... Storm Giant Were-Tyrannosaur...[1] —Siran Dunmorgan [1] A legitimate configuration under the MM 3.5 template for lycanthropy. Now do you see why these things are so dangerous?
Cairn Stone 03-01-05, 08:01 PM	Read it again. "The Keeper of the Silver Flame declared..." Not "the Silver Flame declared." I submit that the Keeper of the Silver Flame is not the Silver Flame, nor even the Voice of the Silver Flame, and that it is the Silver Flame itself that calls the Paladin to service, not the Keeper of the Silver Flame, who is the head of the Church. Remember: the Silver Flame pre-dates the Church of the Silver Flame by something like ninety thousand years. If the Silver Flame in its wisdom should decide that a lycanthrope Paladin was what was needed to combat a growing evil in the world, an evil greater than the potential spread of lycanthropy, it is within its rights to call such a Paladin to service. There's a lot of good rôle-playing potential there in a campaign against the Dark Pack in Droaam, for example: the antagonists in such a scenario are already lycanthropes. If world-spanning adventure is our hero's cup of tea, then perhaps he could be instrumental in thwarting a Dark Pack plot to infect the giants of Xen'drik with lycanthropy... mmmm.... Storm Giant Were-Tyrannosaur...[1] —Siran Dunmorgan [1] A legitimate configuration under the MM 3.5 template for lycanthropy. Now do you see why these things are so dangerous? Right, I see your point, and I've read that Dragonshard with the same thought you are illustrating several times. But why would the Silver Flame allow lycanthropes to exist when a lycanthropic epidemic threatens to release the very evil that the Silver Flame holds at bay? And as I've exhibited before, it only takes one lycanthrope to start a lycanthropic epidemic.
Edymnion 03-01-05, 08:15 PM	But still, bottom line is that the two are not compatible. You can't be both, you have to choose one or another. A paladin that gets infected with being a were-bear has a problem. He cannot allow himself to remain that way. He has to either actively seek out a way to rid himself of the curse, or to take himself out of the picture. Self sacrifice for the greater good. And remember, an infected 'thrope that voluntarily changes has given in to their curse. They are no longer fighting it, they have accepted it. They let it win. In other words, this character would NOT be able to use their were-bear form for a power boost in combat. They would have to try their hardest to stay human. Its some good background and roleplaying, yes, but you cannot define your character permanetly as a were-bear paladin of the Silver Flame. You can be a Paladin of the Silver Flame that is afflicted with the condition, and is fighting to get rid of it, but thats about it. Its like being a Paladin and a Vampire at the same time. Sure, it might prove interesting for a time, but the two are mutually incompatible in the long run. Just because things are more flexible in Eberron does not mean you can just do whatever you want, not without rewriting large chunks of the setting to accomidate it. And really, the Lycanthrope Purge is a major part of the setting. To change it to where the Silver Flame suddenly not only gets along with were's, but acctually accepts them into it's order is just... thats too much, IMO.
Siran Dunmorgan 03-01-05, 09:03 PM	But still, bottom line is that the two are not compatible. You can't be both, you have to choose one or another. A paladin that gets infected with being a were-bear has a problem. He cannot allow himself to remain that way. He has to either actively seek out a way to rid himself of the curse, or to take himself out of the picture. Self sacrifice for the greater good. Let me break this down into two strands: first, being a Paladin is not incompatible with being a lycanthrope, per se so long as the were-shape is also lawful good. One must infer that the Paladin in question is a paladin of a god, force, or philosophy to which lycanthropy is anathema. We probably wouldn't be having this discussion if our hero was a Paladin of Balinor, for example. Second, it may be that this conflicted nature, culminating in "self sacrifice for the greater good," is expected to be the centerpiece of the campaign. Consider the example I provided earlier of a Dark Pack plot to extend lycanthropy to Xen'drik. It meets all of the basic tenets of an Eberron campaign: a brooding, conflicted hero bent on self-destruction; a conspiracy of the darkest sort, hatched in a nation of monsters; continent-spanning adventure against increasingly potent adversaries; a denouement pitting our hero against an epic adversary[1], and in which our hero achieves both his own destruction and that of the threat which, in the end, he was born to thwart. Just because things are more flexible in Eberron does not mean you can just do whatever you want, not without rewriting large chunks of the setting to accomidate it. And really, the Lycanthrope Purge is a major part of the setting. To change it to where the Silver Flame suddenly not only gets along with were's, but acctually accepts them into it's order is just... thats too much, IMO. Too much? Allow me to direct your attention to the sidebar on p. 208 of the ECS. We have no evidence to the effect that the crusade against the lycanthropes did not fall into the suspect category, or—as I personally suspect—that the Voice spoke twice: once, warning the Church of the growing lycanthrope threat, and again, calling for their complete eradication. I leave it as an exercise to determine which Voice offered which message. In the case of our hero, I submit that the Silver Flame would call—would use—anyone it felt necessary to fulfill its mandate of preventing fiendish domination of Eberron If we ask why it would call someone whose existence it had previously declared anathema, I answer that the wisdom of the Silver Flame is beyond merely human understanding, and that it—in its aspect as our hero's DM—has a plan, to the unfolding of which we have not yet borne witness. —Siran Dunmorgan Afterthought: It occurs to me that you might be thinking that all Paladins of the Silver Flame automatically accept one another as brothers-in-arms. This isn't necessarily the case: remember the comments in the ECS about the Paladins of the Maruk Ghaash'kala, who are also Paladins called by the Silver Flame, but who are not looked upon with favor by the established Church. Simply because you are all working toward a common good doesn't mean that you can't disagree with respect to the means by which that good is accomplished. [1] The aforementioned Storm Giant Were-tyrannosaur, a.k.a. "Gojira."
Euangelion 03-01-05, 09:21 PM	I believe the most likely course of action that a paladin of the Silver Flame would take upon becoming afflicted would be to do everything in their power to be cured, right then and there. Since paladins are so rare and so important, the Church as well would certainly do everything in its power to help the paladin, even if it means going before the Keeper of the Flame herself. Yes, even the corrupt clergy, since the punishment for their refusal to help the paladin if they're discovered would certainly outway just about any benefit gained in harming the paladin.
Siran Dunmorgan 03-01-05, 10:09 PM	I believe the most likely course of action that a paladin of the Silver Flame would take upon becoming afflicted would be to do everything in their power to be cured, right then and there. Since paladins are so rare and so important, the Church as well would certainly do everything in its power to help the paladin, even if it means going before the Keeper of the Flame herself. Yes, even the corrupt clergy, since the punishment for their refusal to help the paladin if they're discovered would certainly outweigh just about any benefit gained in harming the paladin. Hmm... I like this one too... The Paladin is traveling to Flamekeep to be cleansed of the taint of lycanthropy... when the caravan and escorts are set upon by the Dark Pack! Now, the Church has evidence that our hero is in league with these agents of Balashaera! Anathema is pronounced, and our hero finds himself hunted from Thrane... Where to turn? Who else but the Keeper of the Flame has the power to lift the curse? Ah! The most powerful wizard in Khorvaire: Mordain "Fleshweaver"... and he specializes in shape-changing and matters of cryptobiology! Perfect! Now, to convince him to help... Oh... and to get to his Keep, our hero has to travel through Droaam, where followers of the Silver Flame are... ahh... not entirely welcome. Oh... and where the Dark Pack is sponsored by the Hags who rule from the Great Crag. Aye. This one works for me, too. :) —Siran Dunmorgan Colophon: see, folks? It's not about breaking the rules. It's about the stories that ooze out from the breaks like marrow from bones.
Marshall Stone 03-02-05, 01:07 AM	Well, seppuku was not considered evil, but was most certainly a form of suicide. It was sometimes the honorable thing to do to atone for some misdeed. It is in this light that I said what I said about this particular situation. Furthermore, nowhere in core D&D rules is it stated that suicide is an evil act. Especially not if by ending your own life, you accomplish something for the greater good, which in this case, you would. And that is what the Paladin is all about; self sacrifice for the greater good. This is not to say that the paladin could not accomplish some good by staying alive...but also and most importantly, by staying alive, he allows an evil curse inflicted ages ago by an EVIL rakshasa to continue, and thus threaten the world. As for the Paladin in question being only "one" lycanthrope and therefore not a dire threat, the problem here is that even one lycanthrope is a large threat. It only takes one lycanthrope to infect any given number of others, thereby spreading the curse and strengthening Bashalaera. One, I was not directing my response solely at one person, I think others also thought the paladin should consider ending his life. My response was more, in general. Second their are a LOT of acts, situations, events, etc. that are not covered in the Core D&D rules. Just because it's not covered in the rules doesn't mean it isn't so. Thirdly I can see your point about self-sacrifice, though I don't think that Self-Sacrifice is, "...what the paladin is ALL about". An aspect of Paladinhood certainly, but not the only or even core aspect of a Paladin. But yeah, I can see your point about how the Lycanthrope paladin by his very existense allows the curse to continue. I'm picturing the Terminator from the Terminator 2 movie and how it sacrificed itself because it still had/was the advanced technology that would threaten the world. But even in that situation the Terminator could not "self-terminate". Thier's a difference between jumping on a grenade to save lives and simply committing suicide. I quess the question would be then would the Were-Bear paladin be "jumping on the grenade" by killing himself or would it be the evil act of suicide? Lastly, in an Afflicted lycanthrope can not spread the curse. So it really wouldn't be that big a deal if one were to exist. The demon that cursed the first being with Lycanthrope doesn't need the curse to be in existence for it to continue to live, just to gain enough strength from the curse to break free of it's bonds. Now a naturally born lycanthrope, I must agree would pose a greater threat. But assuming the lycanthrope in question is Lawful Good, a natural Were-Bear, not an afflicted one, and a Paladin of the Sivler flame, I'd suggest that the threat from such a being could be well monitored and controlled; thus minimal. In any case I don't believe that a Were-Bear Paladin would be something that does not belong to Eberron, or is some how un-Eberron. A search for the cure (and an afflicted paladin of any religion would certainly look for such) against insurmountable odds is very much Pulp-Noir.
AGM Illmater 03-02-05, 04:57 AM	Okay since I didn't provide it at the outset here is my reasoning behind this extreme character...this is him as I see him a few levels from now. Before you walks a man. He stands only 5'11", and a stringy 173 lbs. Certainly not someone you would call a warrior, yet as he comes closer you see he is wearing Holy Symbols of the Silver Flame. His hair is dark brown, but upon closer inspection you see both gold and copper highlights. His eyes are a dark brown, but as the sun catches them they flare golden. He is not thick with muscles as most fighters, he has not the breath of shoulder of a warrior. His weapon of choice is the Greataxe, the one he carries most often is a beautifully crafted weapon. When he calls upon the power of the weapon it brings forth fire, cold, lightning, sound, or acid as he willed it. Strapped to his back is a huge Greataxe for his size (read Large Greataxe), it seems he should be hardly able to lift it let alone use it as a weapon. If you ask him about it, he will tell you it was a gift from his teachers, along with his Greatbow. He will plainly tell you that it takes a stronger man than he to pull it. If he is asked why he chose the path of a Paladin he will tell you this story. "On the day I was born, my village was over-run with orcs. There were none who could fight them off, but fortunate for us, a Paladin of the Silver Flame was tracking them and disposed of them for us. My mother ran to him with me in her arms and asked how he could be repaid. His only reply was to see me raised to be good and just. She vowed then and there that I would be given as a vessel to the Church. She saw that I was educated in matters both spiritual and of war. But, as I grew she saw that I would never attain the great stature expected of Holy Warriors. She feared that she had condemed me to a failed calling. So she searched out those she believed could help me, she believed she found that which she seeked in those that called themselves Brothers of the Bear. She asked them to train me, and they consented. While I did grow under their tutelage, they saw also that I would be unable to complete my duties. So one evening they gave me what they considered a gift. Unknown to me, they infected me with the curse of Lycanthropy. It was not until after I had finished my training that the first turning took me. For many months I wandered, unsure of my place. Then I felt the calling, I knew not where it came from, but I did know who. The Silver Flame had seen my plight and was calling to me. It could see that my heart was good, and wished only to spread that which was good." The young man who has taken up the mantle of a Paladin goes throughout the world doing what he can. He helps who he can, stopping at a sick house to heal those he can, and comforting those he can't. He knows some of their pain, their fear of the unknown. **I would like some critiquing of this story. I know it isn't perfect, but it is what I could come up with at 4:55 in the morning. I will tweak him as I go along, I may even keep this up and update it as he gains levels so all of you can see how he progresses. may even ask the DM to take that idea some of you had earlier of trying to get cured. So when he gets higher in level he finds someone who can do so, and he has to decide if it is worth it to him to lose this gift/curse he now has.**
kisama 03-02-05, 10:35 AM	But still, bottom line is that the two are not compatible. You can't be both, you have to choose one or another. A paladin that gets infected with being a were-bear has a problem. He cannot allow himself to remain that way. He has to either actively seek out a way to rid himself of the curse, or to take himself out of the picture. Self sacrifice for the greater good. And remember, an infected 'thrope that voluntarily changes has given in to their curse. They are no longer fighting it, they have accepted it. They let it win. In other words, this character would NOT be able to use their were-bear form for a power boost in combat. They would have to try their hardest to stay human. Its some good background and roleplaying, yes, but you cannot define your character permanetly as a were-bear paladin of the Silver Flame. You can be a Paladin of the Silver Flame that is afflicted with the condition, and is fighting to get rid of it, but thats about it. Its like being a Paladin and a Vampire at the same time. Sure, it might prove interesting for a time, but the two are mutually incompatible in the long run. Just because things are more flexible in Eberron does not mean you can just do whatever you want, not without rewriting large chunks of the setting to accomidate it. And really, the Lycanthrope Purge is a major part of the setting. To change it to where the Silver Flame suddenly not only gets along with were's, but acctually accepts them into it's order is just... thats too much, IMO. Jesus guys lighten up. Lycanthrope Paladin issue: All I see here is a guy trying to create an Eberron equivalent of the Hulk. And I can't think of any better means of creating a character who struggles with the beast within. The fact that he's a were-bear makes all the more better for roleplaying. Even when in beast form he's not evil, but he'll still be persecuted and mis-understood. If the DM and him can work out the roleplay mechanics of this and incorporate this into the story, then awesome. So I'd say yes to the were-bear as long as it was roleplayed to great detail. Red dragon scales: Aquiring Red dragon scales would not be unheard of either. Dragons are off on some other continent. So what! Elephants are off on another continent from North America and yet somehow Ivory from elephant tusks still made it's way over here somehow. Who's to say dragon poachers do not exist? Hell that would even make for an awesome story or two. Now granted obtaining the scales would be extremely difficult, if not impossible on an open market but that's what black-markets are for. The problem is purchasing them would be contradictory to a paladin's belief. So I would say as DM that this PrC is off bounds unless the player agrees to forgo the whole dragon scale thing. Paladin's and other classes commiting suicide: The suggestion that a paladin would take his/her own life after being afflicted with lycanthropy is beyond stupidity. Please show me in any of the D&D books, any text or rule what so ever that says a character has to take his/her own life as the result of having anything done to them. Guess what, you won't find any. Why? Because that's not what good roleplaying is about, and the game designers all know that. Moreso it's an extremely touchy subject and any good player and DM alike should avoid it with a 10-foot pole if they have any sense what-so-ever. The game designers don't condomn suicide in D&D and the proof is in the rules themselves: Look at the samurai, by all rights when a samurai loses honor in a big way they should take their life. Japanese history is full of stories like this. But are samurai forced to commit suicide in D&D? No, why? Because that's not what the designers intended for the game. Instead they gave us the Ronin class. Likewise, when a paladin falls from grace, do they commit suicide? No, we have the Blackguard class for those players. As soon as anyone (especially a DM) suggests that suicide is the only course of action for your character in this game, then that's your queue to get up and walk away from the table and not look back.
Siduakal 03-02-05, 10:59 AM	All I have to say to the last post is this.. ITS AN ISLAND FULL OF DRAGONS! Look at the comic picture in the ECS, they're all over the skies above it. You honestly think ANYONE could poach a dragon? Edit: Actually. I want to add. The Samurai who fell from grace did 2 things. A) They killed themselves, most often then and there. B) They went against that, because they were cowards(Hence why they fell from grace) more often than not, and wandered. A character who falls from grace has the OPTION to kill himself (And retire with some honor) or become a Ronin in D&D. They don't force the suicide, because not all Samurai did it.
MarkB 03-02-05, 11:07 AM	You honestly think ANYONE could poach a dragon? Well, a dragon could. I can just-about imagine a dragon cynical and evil enough that, when he's killed his enemies, he goes ahead and ekes out just that last iota of profit and revenge-through-humiliation by selling off their corpses to the lesser beings in Khorvaire via the black market. Anyway, just because most dragons are either on Argonessen or in disguise, that doesn't eliminate the possibility of a few dragons living on Khorvaire in their natural form, running their own clandestine business, legitimate or otherwise. Not all dragons devote their whole lives to studying the Prophecy, and not all of them would be above meddling in humanoid affairs. I will agree with earlier comments that the prestige class the acquisition of these red dragon scales were linked to is thematically inappropriate for the setting, but it's not beyond all reason for the character to have acquired the scales themselves.
kisama 03-02-05, 12:31 PM	All I have to say to the last post is this.. ITS AN ISLAND FULL OF DRAGONS! Look at the comic picture in the ECS, they're all over the skies above it. You honestly think ANYONE could poach a dragon? Not just anyone as you are saying. But I do think dragon poachers exist in Eberron and they must be one very tough breed of individuals. If they can take an entire portion of a city and suspend it on a floating disk, and if they can bind a fire elemental to a boat to give it flight, then poaching a dragon is also possible. It being an island full of dragons just makes it all the more challenging. You are pointing out the obvious. I saw the pictures too. The point I want to make that nowhere in the Eberron Campaign book does it say that dragons were holly cows not to be touched by anyone. Yes they are powerfull, yes they are all on some far off continent but that's it. So poaching dragons I imagine is quite a lucrative business, mind you also very dangerous. If the players are larger than life in Eberron then let them be the ones who have to do the job.
Siduakal 03-02-05, 12:50 PM	Keep in mind, the Seren protect the Dragons from people even reaching their island I believe.. So you have to... A) Get past the Serens (And you need a rather large boat to transport the goods and enough men to do the job on the island) B) Manage to survive an island full of now hostile enemies because you're invading their land C) Manage to kill one D) Manage to fend off aforementioned island full of hostile enemies E) Escape the island F) Get past the Serens again It's not a question of if it is lucrative. If you're that dumb that you believe the risk to be worth the gain in such a situation, you wouldn't of survived long enough to become powerful enough to even attempt it with a chance of success. And if Dragons weren't respected and off-limits, they'd of be a scarce commodity themselves.
Ellipsis 03-02-05, 12:57 PM	Paladins of the Silver Flame are chosen by the flame. As I have read, one cannot simply say they are becoming a paladin of the silver flame. A Lycanthrope most definately would not get the call. But, to each their own. Says who? The lycanthrope purge may have been started by the demon of the Flame talking, so who's to say Tira Miron won't call a lycanthrope to be a paladin. And mabye the demon calls him just to incite chaos in the Church...I think it's a great idea. Who cares if it's unlikely or unheard of?
Ellipsis 03-02-05, 12:59 PM	Well, a dragon could. I can just-about imagine a dragon cynical and evil enough that, when he's killed his enemies, he goes ahead and ekes out just that last iota of profit and revenge-through-humiliation by selling off their corpses to the lesser beings in Khorvaire via the black market. Anyway, just because most dragons are either on Argonessen or in disguise, that doesn't eliminate the possibility of a few dragons living on Khorvaire in their natural form, running their own clandestine business, legitimate or otherwise. Not all dragons devote their whole lives to studying the Prophecy, and not all of them would be above meddling in humanoid affairs. Exactly. What about the dragon who's made its nest near the Starpeaks Observatory?
Siduakal 03-02-05, 01:24 PM	Meh maybe I'm so adamant about it because for once, there is an environment where dragon doesn't equal "OMG UBER L00TZ!!!!!!!" But hey.. If you want your 1337 ])|24g0n $c4L3z then go for it.
kisama 03-02-05, 01:27 PM	Keep in mind, the Seren protect the Dragons from people even reaching their island I believe.. So you have to... A) Get past the Serens (And you need a rather large boat to transport the goods and enough men to do the job on the island) B) Manage to survive an island full of now hostile enemies because you're invading their land C) Manage to kill one D) Manage to fend off aforementioned island full of hostile enemies E) Escape the island F) Get past the Serens again It's not a question of if it is lucrative. If you're that dumb that you believe the risk to be worth the gain in such a situation, you wouldn't of survived long enough to become powerful enough to even attempt it with a chance of success. And if Dragons weren't respected and off-limits, they'd of be a scarce commodity themselves. Sidukal I can throw the same logistics back at you until I'm blue in the face. A) Do the Serens patrol both the water and air? I can sneak onto the continent by way of airship, boat or submarine (thank you to the designer of the last Eberron module for introducing sub-aquatic transportation). B) The dragons do not occupy every square inch of the island. But they are still dragons so you'd need to be well prepared. First, you'd need to setup an outpost in an area which would be hard to detect by air. The approach to your outpost from land would also need to be difficult. You'd need a very fast evac plan when things go wrong. If you were going to opperate from a ship, then mobility would be your key. Find a lone dragon, hit hard and fast, bring it down with balistas and whatever else you can throw at it, skin it for parts and then get throw the rest of the carcass away. Magic is also key. Some protection against detection and scrying and maybe some counterspells to help with the fight. Also dragons have their politics too. What difference is it going to make to an ancient red or copper dragon if small band of humans kill a green dragon and make off with it? It would amount to the price of tea in China for most of them. C) Are dragons immortal? Last I checked they bleed like everything else. Killing one quickly and efficiently is the hard part. Howerver human inginuety is a marvelous thing. Airships would give you the best advantage in a straight fight. You might need more than one ship. Ballistas would be your best bet for scoring a good hit, maybe use nets to hamper their flight. D) Again, the island is not covered with dragons on a square inch basis. The dragons need to find you. Mobility is important and so are counter-measures to magic detection. E) You got on the island, getting off won't be an issue if you know your stuff. F) As stated above, Seren's can't be everywhere and see everything. The risk is worth the gain because you'd be able to charge whatever you like for your commodity. I agree it would be extremely dangerous work. But in case you never noticed, some people live for that kind of work. The notion of a dragon poacher in Eberron to me is no more silly to me than the notion of a dinosaur poacher in Michael Crichton's books. The thrill of hunting a species which clearly has the advantage is what makes it all the more appealing to these types of folks. WRT your last statement, please quote the page in the ECS where it says everyone on Khorvaire worships the dragons.
Siduakal 03-02-05, 01:31 PM	Who said it was a quote? It's simple common sense. If they didn't hold some level of respect for them, there would be far less dragons. -points to every other Fantasy setting in existance- Common practice is.. "omg! look! Dood! Dood! Uber loot!" "Lets get it!" "K!"
Edymnion 03-02-05, 01:31 PM	Red dragon scales: Aquiring Red dragon scales would not be unheard of either. Dragons are off on some other continent. So what! Elephants are off on another continent from North America and yet somehow Ivory from elephant tusks still made it's way over here somehow.The reason ivory makes it to North America from Africa is because we have well established trade routes and advanced technology capable of crossing oceans in a matter of hours. This doesn't exist in Eberron. There are no trade routes, and they don't run airships back and forth. But the point is moot. The PrC in question requires the character to single handedly kill the red dragon in combat. No help from the party. Which means they have to find and kill the red dragon themselves, and the scales they harvest from it are the ones that are used in making the armor. You can't just buy some red dragon scales and do it.
Siran Dunmorgan 03-02-05, 06:05 PM	The reason ivory makes it to North America from Africa is because we have well established trade routes and advanced technology capable of crossing oceans in a matter of hours. This doesn't exist in Eberron. There are no trade routes, and they don't run airships back and forth. But the point is moot: the Prestige Class in question requires the character to single-handedly kill the red dragon in combat, with no help from the party. Which means they have to find and kill the red dragon themselves, and the scales they harvest from it are the ones that are used in making the armor. You can't just buy some red dragon scales and do it. Edymnion, I'm going to have to assume that "there are no trade routes" means there are no trade routes to Argonessen, since otherwise your first comment makes no sense. :) But nowhere do we find in writ that, while the dragons live primarily in Argonessen, they live solely in Argonessen. We have numerous examples of unique dragons living throughout Khorvaire and Sarlona, and there is no reason to assume that there are not lesser dragons—young adult, adult, or mature—living in various places across the face of Eberron. It is not unlikely, for example, that young dragon would chafe at Argonessen sociey and head somewhere that life was more interesting: the Lhazaar Principalities, for instance. It is not impossible that a greedy red dragon, desiring slaves, would lair in Droaam or Darguun, dominating the monsters or goblinoids. In adapting the Vassal of Bahamut class for Eberron, then, it seems like we'd have to look more closely at circumstances. In "classic" Dungeons & Dragons, red dragons lair in caves in the mountains: a person interested in killing one follows the trail of devastation back to the cave, heads in, and hopefully scores the chain of critical hits they need to kill it quickly: drawn-out battles of this kind tend to favor the dragon. The problem is that a red dragon in Eberron is not necessarily chaotic evil: a red dragon lairing in the Graywall mountains may be a the lawful neutral general partner in a mining/smelting effort for byeshk, for example, and it's likely that killing it would tend to disqualify a character from any Exalted class. So... the first thing you'd have to establish is that the dragon you were trying to kill is, in fact, evil. And not just petty evil: really evil—setting villagers to the torch, despoiling holy places, fixing commodity prices on the Sharn Exchange, making pacts with daelkyr: that sort of thing. Then you get to go in and kill it. But woe to you if it was smart enough to set a dead-man switch such that if it dies, innocents die with it.[1] So it's not just killing the dragon: it's killing the dragon in a way that doesn't endanger thousands of innocent lives. The idea is for you and your Dungeon Master to arrive together at the telling of a story that enlightens you, that entertains and edifies, that satisfies. I know that this attitude is anathema to those of you concerned with minimum/maximum analysis, or who compare characters by who has the higher base attack. But the whole point of the Eberron setting as I understand it is to provide a framework for certain kinds of—certain attitudes toward—adventure: the whole setting is a container for plot devices, to be used as the Dungeon Master and players see fit. Our part in providing commentary, should not be to cry "No! That's wrong! You can't do that!", but to find the way that we can do these things in a way that makes sense for Eberron. The earlier comment that the Vassal of Bahamut Prestige class requires more or less direct interaction with Bahamut, for example, taken at face value implies that since Bahamut is at best a distant deity, this is not possible. But take a step back and look at what's actually involved. Instead of interacting directly with the god, why not interact with a Dragon Ascendant dedicated to Bahamut? The class features are preserved with little to no modification, and indeed, the mystery of the god is preserved, allowing the class an Eberron "seasoning," if you will. Let's try to figure out how things can work, not how they can't. —Siran Dunmorgan [1] A contingency with teleport such that the dragon's body arrives on top of the pressure switch controlling explosives planted throughout Sharn, for example.
ekomega 03-02-05, 06:47 PM	I'm all for making things work, but I think it might be hard to find a dragon in Eberron that will let you kill another dragon, and then give you platinum pieces as a reward. Even if the direct interaction is with a dragon, and not Bahamut, that dragon is saying "you killed one of my people, but he was mean, so it's cool. have money and powers." I don't know enough about dragons in Eberron to say that would be acceptable, but I have a feeling it wouldn't be. We only have knowledge of one dragon everybody disliked, Vvaraak, and she did something severe to deserve dragon enmity. And they didn't even kill her, they left her alone and were mad at her for thousands of years. So to say that any another dragon would allow you to kill an "evil" dragon for something that wasn't as bad and anti-dragon as teaching dragon magic to the lesser races doesn't make any sense to me, when they didn't even go after Vvaraak.
Alac Luin 03-02-05, 07:17 PM	Ya know, when I first read the title of this thread "Oxy-Moron", I first thought it was about a dumb and rusting warforged. :eek: Sorry, back to subject at hand. :embarrass
Siran Dunmorgan 03-02-05, 08:09 PM	I'm all for making things work, but I think it might be hard to find a dragon in Eberron that will let you kill another dragon, and then give you platinum pieces as a reward. Even if the direct interaction is with a dragon, and not Bahamut, that dragon is saying "you killed one of my people, but he was mean, so it's cool. have money and powers." I don't know enough about dragons in Eberron to say that would be acceptable, but I have a feeling it wouldn't be. We only have knowledge of one dragon everybody disliked, Vvaraak, and she did something severe to deserve dragon enmity. And they didn't even kill her, they left her alone and were mad at her for thousands of years. So to say that any another dragon would allow you to kill an "evil" dragon for something that wasn't as bad and anti-dragon as teaching dragon magic to the lesser races doesn't make any sense to me, when they didn't even go after Vvaraak. That's generally true: but then, doesn't this apply to 'standard' D&D as well? Why does Bahamut want you to kill evil dragons in the first place, even outside the Eberron setting? And how does that motivation—among dragons devoted to Bahamut—differ once we get to Eberron? Remember that Bahamut, like Dol Arrah or Aureon, is distant and has little or nothing to do with his woshippers: they don't even have to be lawful good themselves. It's quite possible that—in Eberron—adherents of Bahamut are a small, intolerant, and somewhat bigoted sect of dragonkind who believe that evil dragons are 'fiend-tainted' and worthy only of destruction. In the case of Disciples of Ashardalon, they may even be correct. Given the overall demeanor of dragon society in Eberron, then, it seems not at all unlikely that they would work through human or para-human agents to accomplish this goal, keeping their own claws more or less clean. —Siran Dunmorgan P. S. Note that none of this has to be true in your Eberron—it certainly isn't true in mine—but we're working toward the circumstances that make it true in AGM Ilmater's Eberron. Oh—and if any of these ideas seem 'just plain stupid' to you, don't be shy about expressing that sentiment, either.
Naicin 03-02-05, 08:27 PM	I love lycanthropes and know pretty much everything about them so go for it and do what you want, its ur campaign u know, and Eberron is supposed to let you use all of D&D supplements so go for it man, i say cool. :)
ekomega 03-02-05, 10:10 PM	...P. S. Note that none of this has to be true in your Eberron—it certainly isn't true in mine—but we're working toward the circumstances that make it true in AGM Ilmater's Eberron. Oh—and if any of these ideas seem 'just plain stupid' to you, don't be shy about expressing that sentiment, either. How much can you change Eberron, to make it your Eberron, before it's not Eberron at all anymore? This seems like an awful stretch of everything just to make one PC who is a bad idea. Look at all the work involved just to make him exist and not contradict everything. I'm going to outright say that this PC is stupid, and we should move on. By "discussing" this, it's like putting half-dragons into Eberron. What would work better is a lycanthrope paladin of those orcs who live in the labyrinth of the demon wastes. Those orcs might take anyone, since they need people, and an outcast lycanthrope makes sense. He could've fled there to escape the purge, and the demons left him alone because he was like one of their kin. The orcs feel a sense of kinship because he's stuck in a horrible position (being alive and wanting to do good) and so they help each other out. That makes some sense.
Siran Dunmorgan 03-02-05, 10:53 PM	How much can you change Eberron, to make it your Eberron, before it's not Eberron at all anymore? A lot, actually. :) But if you'll look back on it, we haven't been changing Eberron to accept the Silver Flame Paladin Vassal of Bahamut Werebear, we've been changing the SFPVoBW to accommodate Eberron. There's a difference. This seems like an awful stretch of everything just to make one PC who is a bad idea. Look at all the work involved just to make him exist and not contradict everything. What work? I haven't put more than half an hour's thought into this over the past two days, and everything I've written can be read back in less than five minutes. I'm going to outright say that this PC is stupid, and we should move on. By "discussing" this, it's like putting half-dragons into Eberron. We have half-dragons in Eberron. Khyber! We have at least one half-dragon half-elf dragonmarked lich queen, as far as that goes. What would work better is a lycanthrope paladin of those orcs who live in the labyrinth of the demon wastes. Those orcs might take anyone, since they need people, and an outcast lycanthrope makes sense. He could've fled there to escape the purge, and the demons left him alone because he was like one of their kin. The orcs feel a sense of kinship because he's stuck in a horrible position (being alive and wanting to do good) and so they help each other out. That makes some sense. Yep. That makes a lot more sense. Fits better with the whole lower-key tone of Eberron, and doesn't drag the Book of Exalted Deeds into it, which is a good thing. Werebear Paladin I could see. Vassal of Bahamut, I could see. Werebear Paladin Vassal of Bahamut is stretching the limits not only of Eberron, but of Dungeons & Dragons itself; it's not something I'd allow to happen in my campaigns. But it is what AGM Ilmater asked about, and presented a couple of interesting puzzles about how to work in the extreme cases, not to mention providing several interesting adventure ideas. While I wouldn't allow one of my players to do the Silver Flame Paladin Werebear, I certainly could use a character based on this idea as a central NPC in a Dark Pack story. —Siran Dunmorgan
PoeticJustice 03-02-05, 11:17 PM	AGM-Illmater, If I were running the game, I'd say you served the flame first, the faithful second, and the actual church last. On the other hand, part of the paladin code involves respecting legitmate authority, which could be interpreted as the chamber of cardinals or the keeper of the flame. I guess what I'm saying is, you can do it, it'll be hairy, but it'll work. But do you HAVE to be a paladin? Couldn't you be a holy liberator (CD PrC) or a good aligned Fighter or a cleric? It would raise less issues and the only place it'd impact the actual character is on the character sheet.
Power of the Horde 03-06-05, 11:39 PM	Where to turn? Who else but the Keeper of the Flame has the power to lift the curse? Well, the easiest method is remove curse. You might have to try a few times, of course. (See MM, page 178 for details.)
AGM Illmater 03-07-05, 12:51 AM	Well, the game ended today since some people felt it was getting to powerful, and it was. I finished as a Level 23 Character. Paladin20/Templar3. Here are my stats. Character Name: Palidyr Mawr Character Race: Human Character Class: Paladin Alignment: LG Deity: Silver Flame Size: M Gender: Male Age: 23 Height: 6' 2" Weight: 210 lbs. Eyes: Violet Hair: Brown (with gold and bronze highlights) Skin: Tanned Character Region: Breland Level: Paladin 20/Templar3 Experience Earned: 268,400 Experience Points Needed for Next Level: 276,000 Strength: 21 (+5) {37} (+13) [+2 luon stone] Dexterity: 23 (+6) {25} (+7) Constitution: 16 (+3) {24} (+7) Intelligence: 18 (+8) Wisdom: 23 (+6) Charisma: 18 (+4) AC:23 (+8 armor +3 Dex +2 Nat) {26}(+8 armour +3 Dex +5 Nat) DR5/silver DR1/- Mithril Full Plate Speed: 20/40 HP: 370 Initiative Modifier: +6 {+7} Action Points: 6 Base Attack Bonus: +27/+22/+17/+12 Melee BAB: +31/+26/+21/+16 {+39/+34/+29/+24} Ranged BAB: +33/+28/+23/+18 {+34/+29/+24/+19} Saving Throws: Fortitude: 34 = {13} + {3} + {9} + {8} 37 = {13} + {7} + {9} + {8} Reflex: 27 = {7} + {6} + {6} + {8} 28 = {7} + {7} + {6} + {8} Will: 23 = {7} + {6} + {3} + {8} same Languages: Common Abyssal Celestial Draconic Dwarven Elven Giant Gnome Goblin Gnoll Halfling Ignan Infernal Orc Sylvan Terran Undercommon Current Skill & Ranks: Skills : Name (Ability) ** # Ranks taken -- +Misc modifier (race, feat, magic) Trained ** If any skill does not have a rank ... delete it. ** +6 total $ Handle Animal (Cha) ** 2 rank +4 +30 total $ Knowledge (Religion) (Int) ** 26 rank +4 +30 total $ Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) (Int) ** 26 rank +4 +57 total Diplomacy (Cha) ** 23 ranks +4 +30 +28 total Heal (Wis) ** 23 ranks +5 +3 total Ride (Dex) ** 0 rank +3 +28 total Sense Motive (Wis) ** 23 ranks +5 +32 total Listen (Wis) ** 23 rank +5 +4 +33 total Concentration (Con) ** 26 ranks +7 +35 total Spot (Wis) ** 23 rank +5 +7 +15 total Swim (Str) ** 2 rank +1 +12 +20 total Control Shape (Wis) ** 13 ranks +4 (+3) Untrained ** all skills can be used. Add attribute modifer and total ** + total Balance (Dex) ** 0 ranks cc + total * Climb (Str) ** 0 ranks cc +27 total Gather Information (Cha) ** 23 ranks +4cc +30 total * Hide (Dex) ** 23 ranks +7cc + total Intimidate (Cha) ** 0 ranks cc + total * Jump (Str) ** 0 rank cc + total * Move Silently (Dex) ** 0 ranks cc + total Search (Int) ** 0 rank cc + total Survival (Wis) ** 0 ranks cc + total Use Rope (Dex) ** 0 rank cc * Armor Check Penalty Applies (cc) Cross Class Skill - list at the end of the skill $ Cannot Use Unless Trained Feats: Endurance, Run, Track (the previous Feats are from Lycanthropy) Natural Spell Skill Focus (Control Shape) Power Attack Cleave Divine Might Deft Opportunist Powerful Charge Greater Powerful Charge Weapon Focus (Longbow) Gear and items: Clothes Worn: - Does not add to weight carried (1) Belt, leather [0 lb] (1) Boots, Riding [0 lb] (1) Breeches, Tan [0 lb] (1) Hooded Cloak, Brown [0 lb] (1) Shirt, White [0 lb] (1) Vest, Green [0 lb] (1) Backpack [2.0 lb] ~(5) Rations [5 lbs] ~(1) Torch [3.0 lb] ~(1) Waterskin [4.0 lb] Total Gear Weight Carried: Weapons: Life Drinker - +1 Greataxe bestows 2 negative levels on target-1 negative level on wielder for 1 hour Mace of Terror - +2 Heavy Mace transform into illusionof darkest horror 3/day Shifters Sorrow - +1/+1 two-bladed sword alchemical silver extra 2d6 damage to shapechanger Sword of the Planes - +1 on Material Plane +2 Element Plane +3 Longsword on Astral Plane or Ethreal Plane +4 on any other Plane Holy Avenger - +5 Holy Cold Iron Longsword - casts Greater Dispel(once per round) Med. MW Great Axe(Energy Aura) 1d12+1.5 Str +1d6 (energy) Large MW Great Axe 3d6+1.5 Str. MW Composite Longbow (Distance ability) +3Str 1d8+3 Total Weapon Weight Carried: Armor: Mithril Full Plate (+8 armour bonus +3 Max Dex -2 penalty check 25% arcane check) Beastskin...Glamour Total Armor Weight: 30 lbs. Total weight carried: 30 lb. Spells: Paladin 1 level=5 Bless weapon, Divine Favor, Detect Undead, Divine Sacrifice, Endure Elements 2 level=4 Shield Other, Zone of Truth, Righteous Fury, Resist Energy 3 level=4 Remove Curse, Magic Weapon; Greater, Discern Lies, Cure Moderate Wounds 4 level=4 Righteous Aura, Holy Sword, Restoration, Cure Serious Wounds Templar 0 level=3 Mount, Shield of Faith, Entropic Shield 1 level=2 Bulls Strength, Spiritual Weapon Racial and Class Abilities: Control Shape Low-light vision Scent Lay on Hands 80hp per day Divine Grace Detect Evil Smite Evil 6/day Aura of courage Divine Health Turn undead as level 17 Cleric Remove disease 5/week Mettle-if save is made for half damage no damage is taken Weapon Specialization-Longbow Treasures: Pp: Gp: 1,660 Sp: Cp: Jewelry: Gems: Art: Other: Magic: Ring of Prestidigitation (Constant) Cloak of Resistance +4