Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Acceptableloss 03-11-06, 12:57 PM	I think maybe there was a post somewhere in the Keith Baker thread that described what good aligned members of the faith of Blood of Vol would be like but I haven't been able to find it. If someone could link that would be great. I have a PC in my Eberron group that is playing a LG paladin of the Blood of Vol. I'm trying to figure out what his paladin code of conduct would and would not allow. Basically all I've come up with is that its the same as a regular paladin, except that he does not regard undead as inherently evil. Also, how would the average citizens of Sharn tend to treat him? Anyone else have a similar character in their group? How did you / the DM handle it?
Charles Phipps 03-11-06, 01:20 PM	We had one, so here was what we went with... (take note that the Paladin's interpretation was part of a very 'odd' sect of it that wasn't accepted by all of them) The Sect, I called "Lifekeepers" The Code of the Lifekeepers of the Blood of Vol * Death is the ultimate evil, Preserve Life whenever possible * Undead whom are not enlightened are to be opposed whenever possible * Kill only when an individual is a direct and immediate threat to the lives of others * Protect the communities of the Blood of Vol from persecution by others * Learn the Arts of Healing to help others live * Oppose the agents of the Dark Six and Evil Sovereign Host worshippers whom whenever possible, convince the misguided of the error of their ways * Honor the ancestors of whom have passed away and their memory * Wear Armor of Bones to signify your service to the Blood of Vol whenever possible, hide only when it is needed to protect the lives of kinsmen or the ignorant from your defense * Work to oppose heretics whom have been mislead by ignorant undead * As Vol worked for peace amongst the Dragons and Elves, work for peace amongst humans Lifekeepers have a curious relationship with Aerenal Elves as most of the time they hate each other but a rare few intrigue each other and hold a dialogue regarding the Deathless and Vol. One of the great ironies of the religion is the fact that Lifekeepers are bitterly opposed to the Emerald Claw and Vol, they just don't actually believe Vol is actually Vol. Their ignorance in the face of the truth is built on a fundamental idealism and veneration of a meaning in their scriptures that was never intended.
Setherial 03-11-06, 01:56 PM	wow great stuff, I already feel like playing a LifeKeeper Paladin :)
ChimericalWolf 03-11-06, 02:42 PM	Very excellent code, Charles, and one that I may have to use some time in the future. You're an inspiration to us all.
Charles Phipps 03-11-06, 03:04 PM	Yeah, I use the Lifekeepers to mess with Player's expectations a bit. One time was when the players visited a monastary where everyone was pale, dark clothing wearing, and cold to the touch. YES, they were vampires and human followers but they raised cattle to feed upon and furthermore they were all Lawful Good. ;-) They also used their healing gifts to help the local community even though they kept their true selves secret largely. "The gift of immortality...and its burdens...is a temptation that is strong for many. It must be kept away until Vol overthrows the False Gods and we all become immortal in Paradise." It's fun to be Morbid but Good. ;-)
igotsmeakabob!! 03-11-06, 03:11 PM	Can vampires cast cure spells without hurting themselves?
nyysjan 03-11-06, 03:20 PM	Charlie, while i normally am in direct opposition of all that you say, this time i got to say that i like what you have done with the lifekeepers
Acceptableloss 03-11-06, 04:01 PM	Thanks Charles, that's exactly what I was looking for. I put together a code of conduct for our group's paladin using yours as a starting point. This is intended to be a more general code of conduct for paladins of the Blood of Vol. Paladin of the Blood of Vol, Code of Conduct · Death is the ultimate evil. Preserve life whenever possible. · Punish those who harm or threaten innocents. Kill only when an individual is a direct threat to the lives of others. · Act with honor. (Respect legitimate authority. Do not lie, cheat, or use poison or disease as a weapon. Do not associate with evil individuals.) · As Erandis d’Vol worked for peace between dragons and the elves of Aerenal, work for peace between nations and races of Khorvaire. · Protect the communities of the Blood of Vol from persecution by others. · Honor your ancestors and those who have lost their lives in the defense of others. · The undead should be employed only in a manner that brings honor to the memories of their lives. Oppose any who misuse the power of undeath, and any who have been mislead by malevolent undead. · Enlightened undead are the champions of the faith. Assist them whenever possible. · Learn the arts of healing in order to help protect lives of others. · Proclaim your service to the Blood of Vol by displaying the garb of the faith at all times. Hide it only when required to prevent unnecessary bloodshed.
Charles Phipps 03-11-06, 04:32 PM	Can vampires cast cure spells without hurting themselves? Honestly, I don't know but it seemed like it was necessary to add to the "undead not evil" vibe. Maybe they transfer it from animals or something. Cause the religion is "wrong" and all sorts of messed up on some level, but its not necessarily 'bad' It also adds to the possibility of the BloodRayne, Cristof, Nick Knight "Vampires who feed on evil doers" and such. In general, I also treat the Lifekeepers as sort of in the Kalashatar situation. The majority of people even in Karrnath hate the undead and consider the religion to be weird and bizarre at best while elsewhere the feeling is even worse. The Lifekeepers consider their religion pure, good, and true even as they also note plenty of undead ARE evil and there's some seriously bad elements to their faith's membership. One has to have a plucky sort of fatalism to following the faith and that's helpful because its already a group of morbid crypt worshippers.
Joni-san 03-11-06, 11:57 PM	Bravo Charles, that's truly inspiring. :clap: *Yoink* I'm stealing this :D
AzureCenturion 03-12-06, 04:23 PM	The only point I'd like to add is that The Blood of Vol was based on teaching of house Vol, not necessariliy on Errandis d'Vol. So rathr than have the LifeKeepers be entirely delusional as to the nature of the faith, those who have learned about Errandis d'Vol might consider her evil to be an affront to the purity of the teachings of house Vol, and thus the LifeKeepers might be the militant arm of a segment of the BoV that's trying to free the BoV from the "temporal corruption which holds hostage such deep truths." That being said, I naturally prefer the code of conduct which emphasises house Vol as mediators, not Errandis
Charles Phipps 03-12-06, 04:36 PM	Well it boils down to the fact that I don't believe the House of Vol was any different than Erandis and actually tend to think that she was an innocent victim compared to the probably unwholesome, vile, and cruel nature of her house. So its approaching the angle from two different ways. Erandis is probably better for not being brought up by her house. Personally, I think that its fairly clear the Blood of Vol views Erandis as a saint of their faith.
Sturm Jaeger 03-13-06, 12:48 AM	Can vampires cast cure spells without hurting themselves? Vampire Paladin: "I cast Cure Light Wou-OUCH!!!" :D
JulesCARV 03-13-06, 02:08 AM	Can vampires cast cure spells without hurting themselves? I don't see why not: living clerics can cast inflict wounds spells without hurting themselves. To heal themselves, the vampires presumably cast inflict spells, and to heal living people, they cast cure spell. To hurt other undead, they cast cure spells, and to hurt living people, they cast inflict spells. A paladin doesn't have any inflict spells on the paladin spell list, but I'm sure that could be worked around.
igotsmeakabob!! 03-13-06, 02:28 AM	Good point Jules, regulars can cast inflicts without hurting themselves.
Euangelion 03-13-06, 08:46 PM	So out of curiosity, Charles, is Vol and the true leaders of the BOV aware of this sect in your campaign? And if so, are they more likely to try to wipe it out, or to try to use it for their own purposes, or both? Do you use the Red Watchers from MoE, and if so have there been any encounters between the two groups and your players?
Charles Phipps 03-13-06, 09:27 PM	So out of curiosity, Charles, is Vol and the true leaders of the BOV aware of this sect in your campaign? And if so, are they more likely to try to wipe it out, or to try to use it for their own purposes, or both? Do you use the Red Watchers from MoE, and if so have there been any encounters between the two groups and your players? In my campaign, I tend to think of Erandis D'Vol as the head of the Emerald Claw and her own private cult of Vol (Lich) worshippers. Her religion is spread throughout Karrnath but for the most part she doesn't really think much of it at all. The lich has more to pay attention to than people whom interpret her ideals in a very different way than she does. In general, the Emerald Claw and Lifekeepers butt heads a good deal more often as the Lifekeepers eschew the violence of the organization and also tend to consider them violent, heretical, and exploitive of the good will of the people. The Lifekeepers expect undead to...you know...be benevolent and wise, so they have very little patience for ones that are not. Because I emphasize that every religion has good and bad parts with good able to work with evil in my Eberron, its not an issue of open crusade or civil war in the religion. It's more a case of two groups of people with drastically different ideas about their religion is about. For the common people, both sects represent something of two opposite extremes of their sect and the average worshipper of the Blood of Vol has beliefs that fall in the middle. Usually, venerating the "Noble Undead" the Lifekeepers speak about and the sanctity of life. While also a part of them emphasizing the vengeance and "smite our enemies" aspect of the Emerald Claw.
Edymnion 03-13-06, 10:08 PM	So out of curiosity, Charles, is Vol and the true leaders of the BOV aware of this sect in your campaign? And if so, are they more likely to try to wipe it out, or to try to use it for their own purposes, or both? Do you use the Red Watchers from MoE, and if so have there been any encounters between the two groups and your players?Why would they? The Blood of Vol is not an evil religion, and its most basic tennant is that dying is a very bad thing. Sure, Erandis is using it to her own ends, but even then she is wanting to keep up the appearance that everything is good and swell and above board. There's no reason that she wouldn't let these guys go about their merry way and do their thing. They're great PR.
Euangelion 03-13-06, 11:34 PM	In my campaign, I tend to think of Erandis D'Vol as the head of the Emerald Claw and her own private cult of Vol (Lich) worshippers. Her religion is spread throughout Karrnath but for the most part she doesn't really think much of it at all. The lich has more to pay attention to than people whom interpret her ideals in a very different way than she does. In general, the Emerald Claw and Lifekeepers butt heads a good deal more often as the Lifekeepers eschew the violence of the organization and also tend to consider them violent, heretical, and exploitive of the good will of the people. The Lifekeepers expect undead to...you know...be benevolent and wise, so they have very little patience for ones that are not. Because I emphasize that every religion has good and bad parts with good able to work with evil in my Eberron, its not an issue of open crusade or civil war in the religion. It's more a case of two groups of people with drastically different ideas about their religion is about. For the common people, both sects represent something of two opposite extremes of their sect and the average worshipper of the Blood of Vol has beliefs that fall in the middle. Usually, venerating the "Noble Undead" the Lifekeepers speak about and the sanctity of life. While also a part of them emphasizing the vengeance and "smite our enemies" aspect of the Emerald Claw. Thanks! Sounds like a lot of fun for your players. Why would they? The Blood of Vol is not an evil religion, and its most basic tennant is that dying is a very bad thing. Sure, Erandis is using it to her own ends, but even then she is wanting to keep up the appearance that everything is good and swell and above board. There's no reason that she wouldn't let these guys go about their merry way and do their thing. They're great PR. I pretty much agree with you, Edy, except on one point. In a sense, the Blood of Vol is an Evil religion, just as it's a Lawful religion. But just as the Church of the Silver Flame is a Good religion that is occassionally responsible for evil acts and has some evil followers, the Blood of Vol can be an Evil religion that is responsible for some good acts and have some good followers, and I think Charles shows one way it can be so. But Vol doesn't have to be played exactly Charles' way to stay faithful to the setting. One could also play Erandis as being very interested in the religion of the Blood of Vol (does not the ECS state that she aspires to godhood?) and the purity of its worship, and thus be very unhappy with a group such as the Lifekeepers. But it doesn't really matter except to Charles' group, and it sounds to me like they're having a lot of fun, so it's all good.
ChaoticGood 03-14-06, 10:36 AM	One point that is missing in your codes, the sanctity of blood. You might rephrase the bits about not killing unnecessarily this way: "Blood is sacred. It must not be spilled needlessly." Just my two coppers; other than that, great job so far! My DM recently threw my Paladin into a dungeon full of NG Undead... ticked me off so much when I found out that I'd been slaughtering Good folks left and right... SO I think I'm going to have to use a Vampire Paladin of Vol to get revenge at some point in the future... bwahahaha!
Charles Phipps 03-14-06, 12:38 PM	pretty much agree with you, Edy, except on one point. In a sense, the Blood of Vol is an Evil religion, just as it's a Lawful religion. But just as the Church of the Silver Flame is a Good religion that is occassionally responsible for evil acts and has some evil followers, the Blood of Vol can be an Evil religion that is responsible for some good acts and have some good followers, and I think Charles shows one way it can be so. But Vol doesn't have to be played exactly Charles' way to stay faithful to the setting. One could also play Erandis as being very interested in the religion of the Blood of Vol (does not the ECS state that she aspires to godhood?) and the purity of its worship, and thus be very unhappy with a group such as the Lifekeepers. But it doesn't really matter except to Charles' group, and it sounds to me like they're having a lot of fun, so it's all good. Well even in my campaign, things aren't exactly harmonious either. I point to our own history and how religious individuals who share the same belief structure can react to one another. I just didn't want to go "and the Lifekeepers will be hunted down and hated by alllllll true Blood of Vol" which just seems to be overthetop and seems like it wouldn't be nearly as enjoyable as providing ambiguity to the Blood of Vol religion as a whole. I imagine that there's plenty of Emerald Claw members who want to snuff out the paladins of the group and other militants whom are against the evil undead in their faith.
Lazaro 03-14-06, 01:15 PM	One thing to remember is that if the Paladin of Vol in your party decides to "transend" (i.e., become undead) he loses his paladinhood, since the taint of the undeath now taints him. If this happens I recommend using the Bone Knight prc in Five Nations. This was alos cover in a past AKB Thread.
Sarlax 03-14-06, 01:34 PM	One thing to remember is that if the Paladin of Vol in your party decides to "transend" (i.e., become undead) he loses his paladinhood, since the taint of the undeath now taints him. This is a houserule unless it's specifically described in some core book. It's not evil to become undead.
Euangelion 03-14-06, 04:46 PM	Well even in my campaign, things aren't exactly harmonious either. I point to our own history and how religious individuals who share the same belief structure can react to one another. I just didn't want to go "and the Lifekeepers will be hunted down and hated by alllllll true Blood of Vol" which just seems to be overthetop and seems like it wouldn't be nearly as enjoyable as providing ambiguity to the Blood of Vol religion as a whole. I imagine that there's plenty of Emerald Claw members who want to snuff out the paladins of the group and other militants whom are against the evil undead in their faith. The angle I was most interested in is the possibility of a clash between the Red Watchers and the Lifekeepers, a morally confusing situation for the party to navigate and a very believable situation where a true blue paladin could find herself locking blades with another true blue paladin without either being in serious jeapordy of losing their paladinhood. Again, well done, Charles. I believe you've captured the true essense of Eberron! Aside: the alignment and becoming undead issue is a complicated one. On one hand, every spell that creates undead has the evil descriptor, IIRC. The process of becoming a lich is described as an evil one in the MM. Even mindless undead such as skeletons and zombies are neutral evil. A paladin who becomes a Bone Knight can no longer advance as a paladin due to the taint of undead. These would seem to indicate that intentionally becoming undead is pretty much an act of evil. On the other hand, this is Eberron we're talking about. A group like the Lifekeepers might very well espouse just the kind of mindset that would allow a paladin to intentionally become undead without losing their paladinhood. But it's definately a fine line to walk, to the point that the character in question probably should be utterly convinced that becoming undead is not evil and is in fact one of the most powerful acts of goodness they could take. The final complicating factor, however, is the availability of the deathless type. They would have to believe that using the negative energy of Mabar is more beneficial and desireable than using the positive energy of Irian to cheat death, or that cheating death is an act of good no matter what methods are used to do it. That's a hard sell, in my book, but not impossible.
Charles Phipps 03-14-06, 08:34 PM	On my end, I always note that Paladins of any faith are going to be exceptionally rare individuals and frankly are always alittle out of step with the rest of their faith. The implication is that they're Chosen by their deities (or some force) that wants them to champion their cause, which usually means some cause needs championing. They may lead armies, have scads of devoted followers, and be charismatic beyond belief but you never quite know what exactly is going on in their heads or have everyone follow their belief. So 'strictly accurate' a Paladin of the Blood of Vol won't be able to advance as a paladin again after becoming a Bone Knight, in his view that's probably because he's been called to a different vocation and one who chooses not to gain control over the undead may still work with his fellow LG Bone Knights. Like Galahad travelling with the Knights of the Round Table. There's something "special" about Galahad but darn if the other guys aren't impressive in their own ways with Galahad being respectful. Same with transcending undead, a paladin may lose his status for becoming one but he may view that as a natural part of his becoming a 'Enlightened Immortal Master.' Part of the 'Faith' of the Lifekeepers I came up with was that undead are 'partially manifested' beings and not incomplete. Lifekeepers envision that the future of undeath isn't smoldering corpses shambling in the dark but full ressurection and eternal life (I'm not sure this doesn't remove some of the flavor though). It's why I incorporate a lot of the Necromancy spells about "bestowing a semblance of life" onto the undead and have Lifekeeper Necromancers working on essentially making the better corpse that lives. In my Blood of Vol Paladin's view it reconciles the issue of how you can support undead with the obvious realities. In this case, the undead are holy beings but it won't be until the Sovereign Host are defeated through some Cataclysmic Apocalypse of Goodness that they will become fully ressurected along with hopefully everyone else. It's why Vampires and Lichs are "higher" forms of Undead. The Blood of Vol Lifekeepers have legends of Aerenal Deathless to help support this interpretation but no real knowledge of them. I imagine that they'd think of them as 'Fallen from the Way' by their condemnation of the Volites though but desperately seek the secret of the Deathless for themselves if they ever found it and try to distribute it amongst humans.