Paladins "detect evil" in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Paladins "detect evil" in Eberron [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Sanity Assassin
08-07-05, 09:42 AM ECS says, an Eberron campaign should force people to reconsider their views of alignment. "Evil" is not always cut and dried, and what's evil to one person or culture may be good to another.
My question is, does this affect a Paladins ability to detect evil?
Is a Paladin detecting for evil intent in an individual creature or Evil:b: as an alignment descriptor?
Furthermore what are the deciding factors in the determination of an evil act.
The campaign we are playing at the moment has three player characters one of which is native to Eberron and two who have been grabbed from Faerun difficulties have been arising when one of the Faerunians a Purple Dragon Paladin has been trying detect evil, it has the effect of slowing the game down to a philosophical debate!! Much to the consternation of my Hack'n'Slay Uthgardt Fighter/Bard :mad:
PS Our DM is Penchewer and he is doing a very good job for a first attempt at campaign DMing
Lord Psynister
08-07-05, 10:57 AM I'd have it work the same way it does in every other campaign. A paladin is still a paladin, regardless of the "grey-ness" of Eberron alignments. He's still there to fight evil, and he should still be able to detect it.
MarkB
08-07-05, 11:01 AM Detect Evil will still pick up evil-aligned creatures just fine in Eberron, it's what you do with the information afterwards that's tricky. If you assume reasonably even alignment distributions in humanoid races, about a third of the people you check will be evil - but that doesn't necessarily mean you're justified in taking action against them.

Some may be cruel and petty-minded, but never do any particular harm because society keeps them in check. Others may be misguided, believing their actions are right. Many have the potential for redemption, just as many good people have the potential to turn towards evil.

Detect Evil was never truly meant to be a Paladin "target scanner" even in regular D&D, and this is even more the case in Eberron. A paladin who detects someone as evil may well feel obliged to try and change their ways, or at least keep an eye on them, but he must judge them by their actions.

Take a look at the Church of the Silver Flame Dragonshards articles, part one (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041115a) and part two (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041122a), which include discussions of this subject.
Thrincold
08-07-05, 11:06 AM I think what you're asking is more how to deterimine if something is evil in Eberron. Well my way of dealing is simple. If the creature has an evil alignment its evil. If its good its good.

The greyness of Eberron isn't nessecarilly in ambiguous alignments but in alignments not being as they "should be" or seem. Take for instance a red dragon, he could be the good guy, heck even a fellow paladin in Eberron. While that celestial that has promised to lend her power to the Paladin could be more evil than any of the Lords of Dust ever dreamed. A looser alginment system doesn't mean everyone has a nondetection on when it comes to alignment.

My point is that alignment still applies, and a DM should still assign one to NPC's, but he doesn't have to follow the MM or other sources on what alignment should or has to be.
Sanity Assassin
08-07-05, 12:57 PM Thanks for some balanced opinions on the subject, Eberron does definitely have a shades of grey feel to it. That isn't a criticism I think its a great step forward for the game in general to have some moral confusion, much better that than a morally 2 dimensional game, as it raises many a dilemma and adds to the richness of the roleplaying experience for us.
Charles Phipps
08-07-05, 01:11 PM Thanks for some balanced opinions on the subject, Eberron does definitely have a shades of grey feel to it. That isn't a criticism I think its a great step forward for the game in general to have some moral confusion, much better that than a morally 2 dimensional game, as it raises many a dilemma and adds to the richness of the roleplaying experience for us.

Some variants of Detect Evil I've used are...

Detect Religious Violation- This Ability detects "sin" in accordance with the precepts of the religion in question. "He is a loyal Flamite and virtous", "he is an adulterer!", "He doesn't pray on Sunday" the dangers and level of 'evil' detected in accordance with his sect.

Detect Evil as to your beliefs- Fanatics detect a lot more evil than largely humanist.
Medesha
08-07-05, 01:12 PM I considered having paladins "detect chaos" like in Ravenloft instead of detecting evil. Never got around to implementing it in my game, tho...
Charles Phipps
08-07-05, 01:17 PM I considered having paladins "detect chaos" like in Ravenloft instead of detecting evil. Never got around to implementing it in my game, tho...

I ditched that ability completely and just let paladins detect Fiends as their ability. It was still useful.

Another variant I use is "Righteousness Radar" where they know there's great evil in an area but can't pinpoint it.
Medesha
08-07-05, 01:18 PM Another variant I use is "Righteousness Radar" where they know there's great evil in an area but can't pinpoint it.

"My paladin sense is tingling!"
Charles Phipps
08-07-05, 01:19 PM "My paladin sense is tingling!"

My players did a Buffy riff

"The Paladins having cramps. Must be evil nearby."

"There's another possibility Conan."

"Oh."
Medesha
08-07-05, 01:21 PM :rofl:
Sanity Assassin
08-07-05, 03:05 PM Is it possible for the target of a Paladins detect evil ability to know they are being judged? And if so what would the response be from a typical Breland NPC would they take offense?
Ogre4Hire
08-07-05, 04:27 PM I ditched that ability completely and just let paladins detect Fiends as their ability. It was still useful.

Another variant I use is "Righteousness Radar" where they know there's great evil in an area but can't pinpoint it.

That's the way I do it: Paladins can sense whenever an Evil Outsider or Undead comes within 60', but are unable to pinpoint where it is. Simultaniously, the Find realises that he's been pinged.

It's effective and it doesn't cause the game to slow down as the Paladin runs around attempting to Detect everyone he meets.
Zuxius
08-07-05, 06:31 PM I have an evil vampire in my campaign working for the Silver Flame. The fact is, that this vampire was once a Cleric of the Silver Flame (of which he was evil and lusting for power as well), but he has now turned double agent against the Blood of Vol and a fairly larger conspiracy in general. Though his actions are for the most part evil, he employs spells and abilities that are "Cut and Dry White Cleric Goodey-Good". For instance, he destroys and turns Undead, but not controlling them. This is what a Silver Flame character has to work with, so it is what the Vampire Cleric employs. This ambiguity I feel would never fly in any other campaign but Eberron. Evil agents have their place among the good, as much as good has their place there as well. The vampire above is true to his faith and true to his mission. You could say he is a loyal dog that always comes home with blood between his teeth. It isn't something you would celebrate with the neighborhood, but the dog protects the house and there is no question of the good it is doing (till it turns on one of the other family....at which time its usefulness will be re-evaluated)

I like to think that even the worst hard cases can redeem themselves for just an instant.

Encountering a Cleric of the Silver Flame would leave a Paladin feeling safe, but this evil cleric may prove to the Paladin otherwise. And if or when this Evil Silver Flame Vampire kills the Good Paladin in order to hide his true devotion to the Silver Flame....say to prove his loyalty to Vol, one may think that a religion change is in order, but alignments are not "cookie-cutter" clean in Eberron because evil is no longer contained in one evil group. Evil can be anywhere within the Silver Flame, and that is allowed by the organization as long as it serves the mission of the group. This is an Eberron implied concept. The goals of groups, races, and even Gods supercede alignments. This is a very real world concept. It also gives Eberron its edge.

I think the Detect Evil is not a very good yard stick in Eberron for determining foes, though I do feel it helps one guage an NPC's parameters of what they are capable of. What is probably more important is knowing what faction/group/house/interest a NPC represents.

This is an interesting topic. :P
Kinger
08-07-05, 06:52 PM Sorry to say this, Zuxius, but I have a problem with your view of clerics and religion from an Eberron standpoint.

Your vampire cleric is a double-agent? How does THAT work? A vampire cleric of the Silver Flame I have no problem with, as long as that cleric still has full faith in the Silver Flame. But he doesn't, he's trying to be loyal to the Blood of Vol.

Clerics have NOTHING without faith. It's more than a code of conduct, it's a matter of personal belief. If a cleric loses faith, just for a second, in her religion/ideal/whatever, then she no longer has her abilities (which are faith-granted, dontchaknow).

You can have evil clerics of Good (with a capital G) religion because the clerics can still have full faith in their religion (or at least their interpretation of it). But once they stop, there goes there spells.

Now, if the Vampire is a cleric of the BoV, that's still cool, but know that he'll have the powers of a BoV cleric, not a SF cleric.
zambuka
08-07-05, 09:44 PM ECS says, an Eberron campaign should force people to reconsider their views of alignment. "Evil" is not always cut and dried, and what's evil to one person or culture may be good to another.
My question is, does this affect a Paladins ability to detect evil?
Is a Paladin detecting for evil intent in an individual creature or Evil:b: as an alignment descriptor?

Evil is still evil in Eberron. Alignment is more determined by your actions than anything else. When you are using detect evil you are detecting the alignment, not the intent.

Also read the detect evil spell (the paladin's ability is the same as the spell). The paladin needs to study a subject to determine if it is evil or not. It takes 3 rounds to pinpoint the auras and power of each aura. In this time someone who is being studied will get awfully annoyed at the paladin staring at them.

Evil and Good, as in the alignments, are just as black and white as any other campaign. The alignment ambiguity comes from where you find evil and good. The best example is the High Cardinal of the Silver Flame, he is Evil because of what he does (torture murder) yet retains complete faith, and clerical abilities, because he believes he is doing what is right for the Silver Flame. Just because he believes his actions are Good (maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, maybe he just feels they have to be done) does not make him Good in alignment. But remember he turns up good on a detect alignment because of his faith, this aught to confuse the hell out of your Purple Dragon.

When Karrnath raised their undead army the necromancers may have believed they were doing good, but their alignment is still evil because of their actions, not their intent.

Just remember that in Eberron, just like other settings, someone who does evil is evil, someone who does good is good. The difference is who is doing those acts of good and evil (like the evil Gold dragon or the Good black dragon situation).
Zuxius
08-09-05, 05:14 AM The Vampiric Cleric was abducted as a Silver Flame Cleric and forced into the ranks of Undead. It has been his faith in the Silver Flame that has kept him loyal to the Silver Flame, though it would appear to the Blood of Vol that he has been....converted into seeing it their way. So, as would Keith Baker say, it is his faith that makes this possible. He devoted himself to the Silver Flame and the way he goes about doing the Silver Flame's work may not be savory to many, but to some, he performs a function that is brilliant.

I see what you are getting confused with here. Double Agent. Perhaps I am using this term wrongly.
Guide D'Jorasco
08-09-05, 05:20 AM Paladin/Samurai: "Detect Evil!"
Belkar:*Whips up his protective lead plate.* "Too slow sister."

lol...
AlDaRoN Arg
08-09-05, 10:00 AM Paladin/Samurai: "Detect Evil!"
Belkar:*Whips up his protective lead plate.* "Too slow sister."

lol...

Paladin/Monk ;)

Detect Evil should work in Eberron too, it´s a great tool for paladins.

If paladins cant detect evil how they will know when to use "smite evil"?
penchewer
08-09-05, 12:45 PM Is that a warforged feat - Lead plating - protection from Detect Evil?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Sanity Assassin 08-07-05, 09:42 AM	ECS says, an Eberron campaign should force people to reconsider their views of alignment. "Evil" is not always cut and dried, and what's evil to one person or culture may be good to another. My question is, does this affect a Paladins ability to detect evil? Is a Paladin detecting for evil intent in an individual creature or Evil:b: as an alignment descriptor? Furthermore what are the deciding factors in the determination of an evil act. The campaign we are playing at the moment has three player characters one of which is native to Eberron and two who have been grabbed from Faerun difficulties have been arising when one of the Faerunians a Purple Dragon Paladin has been trying detect evil, it has the effect of slowing the game down to a philosophical debate!! Much to the consternation of my Hack'n'Slay Uthgardt Fighter/Bard :mad: PS Our DM is Penchewer and he is doing a very good job for a first attempt at campaign DMing
Lord Psynister 08-07-05, 10:57 AM	I'd have it work the same way it does in every other campaign. A paladin is still a paladin, regardless of the "grey-ness" of Eberron alignments. He's still there to fight evil, and he should still be able to detect it.
MarkB 08-07-05, 11:01 AM	Detect Evil will still pick up evil-aligned creatures just fine in Eberron, it's what you do with the information afterwards that's tricky. If you assume reasonably even alignment distributions in humanoid races, about a third of the people you check will be evil - but that doesn't necessarily mean you're justified in taking action against them. Some may be cruel and petty-minded, but never do any particular harm because society keeps them in check. Others may be misguided, believing their actions are right. Many have the potential for redemption, just as many good people have the potential to turn towards evil. Detect Evil was never truly meant to be a Paladin "target scanner" even in regular D&D, and this is even more the case in Eberron. A paladin who detects someone as evil may well feel obliged to try and change their ways, or at least keep an eye on them, but he must judge them by their actions. Take a look at the Church of the Silver Flame Dragonshards articles, part one (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041115a) and part two (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ebds/20041122a), which include discussions of this subject.
Thrincold 08-07-05, 11:06 AM	I think what you're asking is more how to deterimine if something is evil in Eberron. Well my way of dealing is simple. If the creature has an evil alignment its evil. If its good its good. The greyness of Eberron isn't nessecarilly in ambiguous alignments but in alignments not being as they "should be" or seem. Take for instance a red dragon, he could be the good guy, heck even a fellow paladin in Eberron. While that celestial that has promised to lend her power to the Paladin could be more evil than any of the Lords of Dust ever dreamed. A looser alginment system doesn't mean everyone has a nondetection on when it comes to alignment. My point is that alignment still applies, and a DM should still assign one to NPC's, but he doesn't have to follow the MM or other sources on what alignment should or has to be.
Sanity Assassin 08-07-05, 12:57 PM	Thanks for some balanced opinions on the subject, Eberron does definitely have a shades of grey feel to it. That isn't a criticism I think its a great step forward for the game in general to have some moral confusion, much better that than a morally 2 dimensional game, as it raises many a dilemma and adds to the richness of the roleplaying experience for us.
Charles Phipps 08-07-05, 01:11 PM	Thanks for some balanced opinions on the subject, Eberron does definitely have a shades of grey feel to it. That isn't a criticism I think its a great step forward for the game in general to have some moral confusion, much better that than a morally 2 dimensional game, as it raises many a dilemma and adds to the richness of the roleplaying experience for us. Some variants of Detect Evil I've used are... Detect Religious Violation- This Ability detects "sin" in accordance with the precepts of the religion in question. "He is a loyal Flamite and virtous", "he is an adulterer!", "He doesn't pray on Sunday" the dangers and level of 'evil' detected in accordance with his sect. Detect Evil as to your beliefs- Fanatics detect a lot more evil than largely humanist.
Medesha 08-07-05, 01:12 PM	I considered having paladins "detect chaos" like in Ravenloft instead of detecting evil. Never got around to implementing it in my game, tho...
Charles Phipps 08-07-05, 01:17 PM	I considered having paladins "detect chaos" like in Ravenloft instead of detecting evil. Never got around to implementing it in my game, tho... I ditched that ability completely and just let paladins detect Fiends as their ability. It was still useful. Another variant I use is "Righteousness Radar" where they know there's great evil in an area but can't pinpoint it.
Medesha 08-07-05, 01:18 PM	Another variant I use is "Righteousness Radar" where they know there's great evil in an area but can't pinpoint it. "My paladin sense is tingling!"
Charles Phipps 08-07-05, 01:19 PM	"My paladin sense is tingling!" My players did a Buffy riff "The Paladins having cramps. Must be evil nearby." "There's another possibility Conan." "Oh."
Medesha 08-07-05, 01:21 PM	:rofl:
Sanity Assassin 08-07-05, 03:05 PM	Is it possible for the target of a Paladins detect evil ability to know they are being judged? And if so what would the response be from a typical Breland NPC would they take offense?
Ogre4Hire 08-07-05, 04:27 PM	I ditched that ability completely and just let paladins detect Fiends as their ability. It was still useful. Another variant I use is "Righteousness Radar" where they know there's great evil in an area but can't pinpoint it. That's the way I do it: Paladins can sense whenever an Evil Outsider or Undead comes within 60', but are unable to pinpoint where it is. Simultaniously, the Find realises that he's been pinged. It's effective and it doesn't cause the game to slow down as the Paladin runs around attempting to Detect everyone he meets.
Zuxius 08-07-05, 06:31 PM	I have an evil vampire in my campaign working for the Silver Flame. The fact is, that this vampire was once a Cleric of the Silver Flame (of which he was evil and lusting for power as well), but he has now turned double agent against the Blood of Vol and a fairly larger conspiracy in general. Though his actions are for the most part evil, he employs spells and abilities that are "Cut and Dry White Cleric Goodey-Good". For instance, he destroys and turns Undead, but not controlling them. This is what a Silver Flame character has to work with, so it is what the Vampire Cleric employs. This ambiguity I feel would never fly in any other campaign but Eberron. Evil agents have their place among the good, as much as good has their place there as well. The vampire above is true to his faith and true to his mission. You could say he is a loyal dog that always comes home with blood between his teeth. It isn't something you would celebrate with the neighborhood, but the dog protects the house and there is no question of the good it is doing (till it turns on one of the other family....at which time its usefulness will be re-evaluated) I like to think that even the worst hard cases can redeem themselves for just an instant. Encountering a Cleric of the Silver Flame would leave a Paladin feeling safe, but this evil cleric may prove to the Paladin otherwise. And if or when this Evil Silver Flame Vampire kills the Good Paladin in order to hide his true devotion to the Silver Flame....say to prove his loyalty to Vol, one may think that a religion change is in order, but alignments are not "cookie-cutter" clean in Eberron because evil is no longer contained in one evil group. Evil can be anywhere within the Silver Flame, and that is allowed by the organization as long as it serves the mission of the group. This is an Eberron implied concept. The goals of groups, races, and even Gods supercede alignments. This is a very real world concept. It also gives Eberron its edge. I think the Detect Evil is not a very good yard stick in Eberron for determining foes, though I do feel it helps one guage an NPC's parameters of what they are capable of. What is probably more important is knowing what faction/group/house/interest a NPC represents. This is an interesting topic. :P
Kinger 08-07-05, 06:52 PM	Sorry to say this, Zuxius, but I have a problem with your view of clerics and religion from an Eberron standpoint. Your vampire cleric is a double-agent? How does THAT work? A vampire cleric of the Silver Flame I have no problem with, as long as that cleric still has full faith in the Silver Flame. But he doesn't, he's trying to be loyal to the Blood of Vol. Clerics have NOTHING without faith. It's more than a code of conduct, it's a matter of personal belief. If a cleric loses faith, just for a second, in her religion/ideal/whatever, then she no longer has her abilities (which are faith-granted, dontchaknow). You can have evil clerics of Good (with a capital G) religion because the clerics can still have full faith in their religion (or at least their interpretation of it). But once they stop, there goes there spells. Now, if the Vampire is a cleric of the BoV, that's still cool, but know that he'll have the powers of a BoV cleric, not a SF cleric.
zambuka 08-07-05, 09:44 PM	ECS says, an Eberron campaign should force people to reconsider their views of alignment. "Evil" is not always cut and dried, and what's evil to one person or culture may be good to another. My question is, does this affect a Paladins ability to detect evil? Is a Paladin detecting for evil intent in an individual creature or Evil:b: as an alignment descriptor? Evil is still evil in Eberron. Alignment is more determined by your actions than anything else. When you are using detect evil you are detecting the alignment, not the intent. Also read the detect evil spell (the paladin's ability is the same as the spell). The paladin needs to study a subject to determine if it is evil or not. It takes 3 rounds to pinpoint the auras and power of each aura. In this time someone who is being studied will get awfully annoyed at the paladin staring at them. Evil and Good, as in the alignments, are just as black and white as any other campaign. The alignment ambiguity comes from where you find evil and good. The best example is the High Cardinal of the Silver Flame, he is Evil because of what he does (torture murder) yet retains complete faith, and clerical abilities, because he believes he is doing what is right for the Silver Flame. Just because he believes his actions are Good (maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, maybe he just feels they have to be done) does not make him Good in alignment. But remember he turns up good on a detect alignment because of his faith, this aught to confuse the hell out of your Purple Dragon. When Karrnath raised their undead army the necromancers may have believed they were doing good, but their alignment is still evil because of their actions, not their intent. Just remember that in Eberron, just like other settings, someone who does evil is evil, someone who does good is good. The difference is who is doing those acts of good and evil (like the evil Gold dragon or the Good black dragon situation).
Zuxius 08-09-05, 05:14 AM	The Vampiric Cleric was abducted as a Silver Flame Cleric and forced into the ranks of Undead. It has been his faith in the Silver Flame that has kept him loyal to the Silver Flame, though it would appear to the Blood of Vol that he has been....converted into seeing it their way. So, as would Keith Baker say, it is his faith that makes this possible. He devoted himself to the Silver Flame and the way he goes about doing the Silver Flame's work may not be savory to many, but to some, he performs a function that is brilliant. I see what you are getting confused with here. Double Agent. Perhaps I am using this term wrongly.
Guide D'Jorasco 08-09-05, 05:20 AM	Paladin/Samurai: "Detect Evil!" Belkar:Whips up his protective lead plate. "Too slow sister." lol...
AlDaRoN Arg 08-09-05, 10:00 AM	Paladin/Samurai: "Detect Evil!" Belkar:Whips up his protective lead plate. "Too slow sister." lol... Paladin/Monk ;) Detect Evil should work in Eberron too, it´s a great tool for paladins. If paladins cant detect evil how they will know when to use "smite evil"?
penchewer 08-09-05, 12:45 PM	Is that a warforged feat - Lead plating - protection from Detect Evil?