Palladin/Juggernaut. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Palladin/Juggernaut. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
LunarRavager
08-20-07, 09:32 PM My DM has overruled that my Palladin turned Juggernaut cannot heal humans. Only other constructs.

At first he ruled that I can not heal myself... I argued.
And now he draws the line that my lay on hands is a mending only spell. Since I am no longer human and more of a construct because of the Juggernaut PrC, I cannot use spells from the heal school, including my lay on hands.

Got any good arguments?

Im still Lawful Good.
I took the Knight Training feat.
LunarRavager
08-20-07, 09:33 PM What good is a Paladin if he cant save/heal humans?
ornitholestes
08-20-07, 10:11 PM Well, if you are strictly following the rules, your DM is incorrect. The juggernaut will not receive benefits from spells in the healing subschool but nothing says he can't cast them. Furthermore, it says nothing about loosing the benefit from supernatural abilities - furthermore the ECS specifically states the Warforged Paladin's Lay on Hands can heal or repair.

I think most players would agree the DM is allowed to modify rules to fit his game, and limiting a paladin/juggernaught in this way could (arguably) be seen as reasonable. That said, if the DM is going to implement such changes, it does not seem fair to me to invoke them retroactively. If your DM is dead set on making the abilities work this way after you have already picked them, perhaps you should work out a deal to rebuild your character with a different class combination.

A DM, of course, has the right to adjust the game to fit his or her playgroup and campaign (this is often necessary at at least some level). Sometimes (s)he must do this mid-game to deal with unforeseen consequences. However, if a such a change invalidates a concept a player has already been using, it is only fair for the DM to allow him to adjust his character in response to these new rules. After all, every player should have fun at the gaming table and the DM should not force a player to use a character concept he doesn't like - especially giving the long running nature of so many D&D games.
LunarRavager
08-20-07, 11:09 PM thanks for the response.

My DM told me ahead of time. Im still at character creation actually, Im just planning ahead.

But the first words out of my mouth when he made the call was "thats crap" <---- (knee jerk reaction!)

You think its reasonable? ... :(
I was hoping for a response more like ... "Thats crap!" :)

or

" You cant heal anymore? whats the point of being a paladin? You have so many restrictions being a Paladin, and you take away the one good thing! The very nature of a paladin is to fulfill a calling to help and save people, and you take it away?! Plus its a damn warforged, warforged are extremely restricted. So a warforged/Paladin = restriction/restricted...
and the warforged racial adjustments are negatives for the paladins prime pre-requisite! How much harder can you make it on a player?!" .... :twitch: ...

Hope you found this rant a humorous one.
ornitholestes
08-20-07, 11:19 PM I'm not sure if its reasonable or not, my post was somewhat of a theoretical answer.

I would personally have no problem whatsoever allowing a paladin juggernaut to fully heal himself and his allies. Letting a character use a small amount of extra healing on his party members doesn't seem to pose any sort of problem and is supported by the rules. However, I am not in your play group and don't what exactly your DM is going for. I would talk to him and tell him what character you are trying to go for.

At first glance, the paladin juggernaught could seem to be a weird (not bad) class combination. However, I can imagine it and its kind of a cool idea. I can imagine many reasons why a holy warrior would seek to mute his own emotions (maybe he is trying to purge himself of anger, prejudice, or temptation). If your DM is simply having a problem with the concept, this might help.

Ultimately, however, if he is dead set against it I would pick another character. Its not worthing starting a fight and straining the game before it even begins if the guy is a fun DM who runs a good game. To me, the ruling is a bit odd, but nothing says you can't save this character concept for a letter game.
LunarRavager
08-20-07, 11:48 PM Thanks again..

After he put his foot down, I decided it might be best to change my character. pft. <--- not happy with that.

But choosing the juggernaut just seemed like my only option as a Warforged Paladin.
As a warforged I cant wear armour, so I have to waste my feat on adamantite body, if Im gonna be a Paladin. Mythral body is not for Paladins.
My hands are tied.
And now that Im restricted with Adamantite body, I might as well take advantage of it and chose the PrC.

I figure a human loving warforged paladin would take the ultimate sacrifice and use his juggernaut heritage (curse) to further help and save the living humans.

Plus a Paladin Juggernaut is like a really good paladin..isnt it?
Wouldn't you want a Paladin Juggernaut watching over your town?

In my experience of perceiving human nature, a prime motivator to DM is to be in control.

Since he is taking something away from me (Very powerful IMO) what can I ask for to balance that?
Or how can I make a CLEAR understandable argument of how his call is so very :) very wrong ? :)
Or am I over reacting?

Thanks for your thoughts.
LunarRavager
08-20-07, 11:54 PM At first glance, the paladin juggernaught could seem to be a weird (not bad) class combination. However, I can imagine it and its kind of a cool idea. I can imagine many reasons why a holy warrior would seek to mute his own emotions (maybe he is trying to purge himself of anger, prejudice, or temptation). If your DM is simply having a problem with the concept, this might help.

Thanks. This idea does give me more ideas.
Alex_
08-21-07, 11:32 AM Since he is taking something away from me (Very powerful IMO) what can I ask for to balance that?
Or how can I make a CLEAR understandable argument of how his call is so very :) very wrong ? :)
Or am I over reacting?

It depends on how well you know the DM, and how you think they'll respond. It is understandable that one would want to be able to use a class ability that isn't overpowered and is clearly stated to be possible via the printed and published rules, but as DM, he has the final say and can allow/disallow whatever he wants.

If he thinks it's overpowered, I would think the best way to show that it's not is to give him an example of other equally valid classes or feats you could have chosen that would be more capable, yet seem more reasonable. Something like a Warforged Artificer/Juggernaut, which can not only use repair spells, but buff itself to make it much more powerful in melee, or a Warforged Barbarian/Juggernaut, which can Rage without getting Fatigued, eliminating the primary downside of the class ability.

Don't actually make these characters to try and punish the DM, but just help him see that a Warforged Paladin- taking penalties to Charisma and Wisdom (both important stats for a Paladin) with the ability to heal himself for less HP per day than an equivalent level Artificer (especially if he doesn't heal anyone else)- isn't that overpowered.

I wouldn't try to do it in front of everyone else either. Try to talk to the DM when it's just you and him (or her).

I also like your story. A Warforged who's so devoted to protecting life, they give up their own living nature to become a more effective tool of Good. Nothing more Paladin-like than that.
Remmster
08-21-07, 11:43 AM I also like your story. A Warforged who's so devoted to protecting life, they give up their own living nature to become a more effective tool of Good. Nothing more Paladin-like than that.

Agreed, but you know, LunarRavanger - at first thought I would have sided with the DM. Why? Foremost, it seemed logical that a Juggernaught going all construct and strong-metal-over-weak-flesh, becoming so construct-like that heal magic ceases to work at all on this character... I guess I would've argued about the healing powers myself. It somehow doesn't feel right that a Paladin that sacrifices his humanity and compassion for raw "mechanical" power would bring up the inner forces to heal the wounds of flesh creatures.

Now, just saying "What good does a Paladin who cannot heal do?" will probably just set him off, and to be honest, my first reaction to that remark was "Dunno, what good does the Juggernaught-Class do for a Paladin?" At first, it somehow seems contradictory.

BUT, since the total-devotion thing came up, it sounds a lot more reasonable, and thus that's the way you should bring it up in front of your DM. Sounds a whole lot different than "No healing? That's crap."
(Don't forget, in the end, the DM's decision is absolute. Going "But the people on the forums said..." will probably just annoy him for trying to undermine his authority. At least that would tick ME off.)

Usually though argumenting from a in-character perspective soothes DMs.
Maybe you can figure something out, like swapping the Healing powers for another special ability (dunno, casting shield once per day? you figure it out, I'm bad at memorizing rules and effects anyway).

[EDIT: What, even the p-word gets censored? Okay, the f-word, sure, but the p-me-off? Wow. I never knew I was using such strong language as to trigger auto-censorship!
*goes to wash mouth* *and fingers*]
LunarRavager
08-21-07, 11:01 PM Remmster are you a new DM?
Remmster
08-22-07, 05:59 AM Remmster are you a new DM?

And what if I would be? But actually, no, I would say at least 6 years of "serious" DMing, though only recently for D&D.
But at any rate, why do you ask?
LunarRavager
08-24-07, 04:29 AM I think my DM just showed up ... thats why i asked.
Remmster
08-24-07, 06:55 AM I think my DM just showed up ... thats why i asked.
A little paranoid, aren't we? And you should be -
I'm his evil twin! Bwahahahaha!!!
... or, wait, maybe I'm the good twin. Huh. Well, who cares. :D

Just kidding (or am I?), did the matter resolve and you could settle on some sort of compensation?
LunarRavager
08-24-07, 06:01 PM did the matter resolve and you could settle on some sort of compensation?

how could it be resolved? I have not spoken to you yet.

But I have decided to make a new character.
Kalanth
08-25-07, 10:42 AM I like this idea, however, and will be turning it into an NPC bad guy to use against the players. Afterall, they are locked in a "battle" with the Lord of Blades, so what better than to face them with than a Paladin of the Lord of Blades? Makes perfect sense to me to be a Paladin / Juggernaut. I would sales pitch the argument that the WF Lay of Hands heals both Fleshy and Warforged, and that the Juggernaut did leave out the bit on healing with supernatural abilities. If the latter wont fly, I could understand, but the former should be able to pass if you DM is reasonable.
LunarRavager
08-26-07, 12:49 PM i forget if we were supposed to meet today.
LunarRavager
08-26-07, 12:57 PM I like this idea, however, and will be turning it into an NPC bad guy to use against the players. Afterall, they are locked in a "battle" with the Lord of Blades, so what better than to face them with than a Paladin of the Lord of Blades? Makes perfect sense to me to be a Paladin / Juggernaut. I would sales pitch the argument that the WF Lay of Hands heals both Fleshy and Warforged, and that the Juggernaut did leave out the bit on healing with supernatural abilities. If the latter wont fly, I could understand, but the former should be able to pass if you DM is reasonable.

A warforged palladin CAN heal both humans and constructs.

"leave out the bit on healing with supernatural abilities"

I dont understand what you are trying to say here.
Are you saying to allow the juggernaut to drink potions?
Or be healed with cure light wounds spells? Im not sure what you are saying.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
LunarRavager 08-20-07, 09:32 PM	My DM has overruled that my Palladin turned Juggernaut cannot heal humans. Only other constructs. At first he ruled that I can not heal myself... I argued. And now he draws the line that my lay on hands is a mending only spell. Since I am no longer human and more of a construct because of the Juggernaut PrC, I cannot use spells from the heal school, including my lay on hands. Got any good arguments? Im still Lawful Good. I took the Knight Training feat.
LunarRavager 08-20-07, 09:33 PM	What good is a Paladin if he cant save/heal humans?
ornitholestes 08-20-07, 10:11 PM	Well, if you are strictly following the rules, your DM is incorrect. The juggernaut will not receive benefits from spells in the healing subschool but nothing says he can't cast them. Furthermore, it says nothing about loosing the benefit from supernatural abilities - furthermore the ECS specifically states the Warforged Paladin's Lay on Hands can heal or repair. I think most players would agree the DM is allowed to modify rules to fit his game, and limiting a paladin/juggernaught in this way could (arguably) be seen as reasonable. That said, if the DM is going to implement such changes, it does not seem fair to me to invoke them retroactively. If your DM is dead set on making the abilities work this way after you have already picked them, perhaps you should work out a deal to rebuild your character with a different class combination. A DM, of course, has the right to adjust the game to fit his or her playgroup and campaign (this is often necessary at at least some level). Sometimes (s)he must do this mid-game to deal with unforeseen consequences. However, if a such a change invalidates a concept a player has already been using, it is only fair for the DM to allow him to adjust his character in response to these new rules. After all, every player should have fun at the gaming table and the DM should not force a player to use a character concept he doesn't like - especially giving the long running nature of so many D&D games.
LunarRavager 08-20-07, 11:09 PM	thanks for the response. My DM told me ahead of time. Im still at character creation actually, Im just planning ahead. But the first words out of my mouth when he made the call was "thats crap" <---- (knee jerk reaction!) You think its reasonable? ... :( I was hoping for a response more like ... "Thats crap!" :) or " You cant heal anymore? whats the point of being a paladin? You have so many restrictions being a Paladin, and you take away the one good thing! The very nature of a paladin is to fulfill a calling to help and save people, and you take it away?! Plus its a damn warforged, warforged are extremely restricted. So a warforged/Paladin = restriction/restricted... and the warforged racial adjustments are negatives for the paladins prime pre-requisite! How much harder can you make it on a player?!" .... :twitch: ... Hope you found this rant a humorous one.
ornitholestes 08-20-07, 11:19 PM	I'm not sure if its reasonable or not, my post was somewhat of a theoretical answer. I would personally have no problem whatsoever allowing a paladin juggernaut to fully heal himself and his allies. Letting a character use a small amount of extra healing on his party members doesn't seem to pose any sort of problem and is supported by the rules. However, I am not in your play group and don't what exactly your DM is going for. I would talk to him and tell him what character you are trying to go for. At first glance, the paladin juggernaught could seem to be a weird (not bad) class combination. However, I can imagine it and its kind of a cool idea. I can imagine many reasons why a holy warrior would seek to mute his own emotions (maybe he is trying to purge himself of anger, prejudice, or temptation). If your DM is simply having a problem with the concept, this might help. Ultimately, however, if he is dead set against it I would pick another character. Its not worthing starting a fight and straining the game before it even begins if the guy is a fun DM who runs a good game. To me, the ruling is a bit odd, but nothing says you can't save this character concept for a letter game.
LunarRavager 08-20-07, 11:48 PM	Thanks again.. After he put his foot down, I decided it might be best to change my character. pft. <--- not happy with that. But choosing the juggernaut just seemed like my only option as a Warforged Paladin. As a warforged I cant wear armour, so I have to waste my feat on adamantite body, if Im gonna be a Paladin. Mythral body is not for Paladins. My hands are tied. And now that Im restricted with Adamantite body, I might as well take advantage of it and chose the PrC. I figure a human loving warforged paladin would take the ultimate sacrifice and use his juggernaut heritage (curse) to further help and save the living humans. Plus a Paladin Juggernaut is like a really good paladin..isnt it? Wouldn't you want a Paladin Juggernaut watching over your town? In my experience of perceiving human nature, a prime motivator to DM is to be in control. Since he is taking something away from me (Very powerful IMO) what can I ask for to balance that? Or how can I make a CLEAR understandable argument of how his call is so very :) very wrong ? :) Or am I over reacting? Thanks for your thoughts.
LunarRavager 08-20-07, 11:54 PM	At first glance, the paladin juggernaught could seem to be a weird (not bad) class combination. However, I can imagine it and its kind of a cool idea. I can imagine many reasons why a holy warrior would seek to mute his own emotions (maybe he is trying to purge himself of anger, prejudice, or temptation). If your DM is simply having a problem with the concept, this might help. Thanks. This idea does give me more ideas.
Alex_ 08-21-07, 11:32 AM	Since he is taking something away from me (Very powerful IMO) what can I ask for to balance that? Or how can I make a CLEAR understandable argument of how his call is so very :) very wrong ? :) Or am I over reacting? It depends on how well you know the DM, and how you think they'll respond. It is understandable that one would want to be able to use a class ability that isn't overpowered and is clearly stated to be possible via the printed and published rules, but as DM, he has the final say and can allow/disallow whatever he wants. If he thinks it's overpowered, I would think the best way to show that it's not is to give him an example of other equally valid classes or feats you could have chosen that would be more capable, yet seem more reasonable. Something like a Warforged Artificer/Juggernaut, which can not only use repair spells, but buff itself to make it much more powerful in melee, or a Warforged Barbarian/Juggernaut, which can Rage without getting Fatigued, eliminating the primary downside of the class ability. Don't actually make these characters to try and punish the DM, but just help him see that a Warforged Paladin- taking penalties to Charisma and Wisdom (both important stats for a Paladin) with the ability to heal himself for less HP per day than an equivalent level Artificer (especially if he doesn't heal anyone else)- isn't that overpowered. I wouldn't try to do it in front of everyone else either. Try to talk to the DM when it's just you and him (or her). I also like your story. A Warforged who's so devoted to protecting life, they give up their own living nature to become a more effective tool of Good. Nothing more Paladin-like than that.
Remmster 08-21-07, 11:43 AM	I also like your story. A Warforged who's so devoted to protecting life, they give up their own living nature to become a more effective tool of Good. Nothing more Paladin-like than that. Agreed, but you know, LunarRavanger - at first thought I would have sided with the DM. Why? Foremost, it seemed logical that a Juggernaught going all construct and strong-metal-over-weak-flesh, becoming so construct-like that heal magic ceases to work at all on this character... I guess I would've argued about the healing powers myself. It somehow doesn't feel right that a Paladin that sacrifices his humanity and compassion for raw "mechanical" power would bring up the inner forces to heal the wounds of flesh creatures. Now, just saying "What good does a Paladin who cannot heal do?" will probably just set him off, and to be honest, my first reaction to that remark was "Dunno, what good does the Juggernaught-Class do for a Paladin?" At first, it somehow seems contradictory. BUT, since the total-devotion thing came up, it sounds a lot more reasonable, and thus that's the way you should bring it up in front of your DM. Sounds a whole lot different than "No healing? That's crap." (Don't forget, in the end, the DM's decision is absolute. Going "But the people on the forums said..." will probably just annoy him for trying to undermine his authority. At least that would tick ME off.) Usually though argumenting from a in-character perspective soothes DMs. Maybe you can figure something out, like swapping the Healing powers for another special ability (dunno, casting shield once per day? you figure it out, I'm bad at memorizing rules and effects anyway). [EDIT: What, even the p-word gets censored? Okay, the f-word, sure, but the p-me-off? Wow. I never knew I was using such strong language as to trigger auto-censorship! goes to wash mouth and fingers]
LunarRavager 08-21-07, 11:01 PM	Remmster are you a new DM?
Remmster 08-22-07, 05:59 AM	Remmster are you a new DM? And what if I would be? But actually, no, I would say at least 6 years of "serious" DMing, though only recently for D&D. But at any rate, why do you ask?
LunarRavager 08-24-07, 04:29 AM	I think my DM just showed up ... thats why i asked.
Remmster 08-24-07, 06:55 AM	I think my DM just showed up ... thats why i asked. A little paranoid, aren't we? And you should be - I'm his evil twin! Bwahahahaha!!! ... or, wait, maybe I'm the good twin. Huh. Well, who cares. :D Just kidding (or am I?), did the matter resolve and you could settle on some sort of compensation?
LunarRavager 08-24-07, 06:01 PM	did the matter resolve and you could settle on some sort of compensation? how could it be resolved? I have not spoken to you yet. But I have decided to make a new character.
Kalanth 08-25-07, 10:42 AM	I like this idea, however, and will be turning it into an NPC bad guy to use against the players. Afterall, they are locked in a "battle" with the Lord of Blades, so what better than to face them with than a Paladin of the Lord of Blades? Makes perfect sense to me to be a Paladin / Juggernaut. I would sales pitch the argument that the WF Lay of Hands heals both Fleshy and Warforged, and that the Juggernaut did leave out the bit on healing with supernatural abilities. If the latter wont fly, I could understand, but the former should be able to pass if you DM is reasonable.
LunarRavager 08-26-07, 12:49 PM	i forget if we were supposed to meet today.
LunarRavager 08-26-07, 12:57 PM	I like this idea, however, and will be turning it into an NPC bad guy to use against the players. Afterall, they are locked in a "battle" with the Lord of Blades, so what better than to face them with than a Paladin of the Lord of Blades? Makes perfect sense to me to be a Paladin / Juggernaut. I would sales pitch the argument that the WF Lay of Hands heals both Fleshy and Warforged, and that the Juggernaut did leave out the bit on healing with supernatural abilities. If the latter wont fly, I could understand, but the former should be able to pass if you DM is reasonable. A warforged palladin CAN heal both humans and constructs. "leave out the bit on healing with supernatural abilities" I dont understand what you are trying to say here. Are you saying to allow the juggernaut to drink potions? Or be healed with cure light wounds spells? Im not sure what you are saying.