Post/Author/DateTime	Post
magicbehere 10-21-04, 12:15 PM	Lv. 6 Spike Chain Fighter triper Lv. 6 Spike Chain Fighter High Init action point powers Lv. 6 Seeking Composite Longbow Fighter Lv. 7 Artificer Lv. 7 Cleric Lv. 6 Wizard They kill everything i throw at them, i dont have time for details right now i'm at school. any suggestion, we are currently dealing with (fighting) the sliver flame.
Flack Jack 10-21-04, 12:46 PM	It sounds like you have got some expirienced power gamers on your hands. The greatest challenge of a DM. Have you tried uping the challenge rating of your monsters in a profound manner? I have known four third levels to kill a harpy with ranger levels adding up to a CR of 10 by use of cover, and ingenious summoning techniques. The blue book doesn't even give expirience for that kind of encounter, and I think thats just what you need.
fizzbang 10-21-04, 02:10 PM	Lv. 6 Spike Chain Fighter triper Lv. 6 Spike Chain Fighter High Init action point powers Lv. 6 Seeking Composite Longbow Fighter Lv. 7 Artificer Lv. 7 Cleric Lv. 6 Wizard They kill everything i throw at them, i dont have time for details right now i'm at school. any suggestion, we are currently dealing with (fighting) the sliver flame. Hrmm.. I'm seeing a real lack of stealth, and possibly a dearth of people skills. The artificer may be able to deal with traps, if he's got the search and disable device skills. Does anyone in the party have any investigation/inquisitive type skills? Putting such a specialized party into situations they're weak at would highlight their deficiencies, but doing it too much would be very discouraging to the party. Give them a few traps or investigations that may be tough for a party of half to 3/4s of their level, then give them a few fights where their strengths can shine (Ground troops for the tripper, flying enemies for the archer, toughs for the casters and action-point cinematic). Then, for the big fight, pop in something where they can use their focuses, but not necessarily to the greatest benefit. Stable/multi-legged enemies versus the tripper, enemies that can close quickly versus the archer, enemies with spell resistance/counterspelling, possibly a disarming foe or two for the fighters in general. I especially recommend not having one big-big enemy, but maybe one or two big ones with a few smaller ones: otherwise, the entire party can focus on the sole threat and take it out without too much threat. A pair of centaurs (one with fighter levels, the other with cleric levels) supported by a handful of lizardmen or the like, perhaps?
magicbehere 10-21-04, 02:13 PM	here is more detail on the party: The first chain fighter is Human and has a +1 Spike Chain The second Chain fighter is Hobgoblin and has a +1 Spike Chain The Human Archer has a +1 (+2 str) Composite Longbow with Seeking The Human Artificer powers up there weapons and isnt a miser with his APs, he himself has a +1 Human Bane Morningstar and Mithral Breatplate and is no pushover in combat himself. The Elf Cleric is a mad summoner and uses a +1 (+2 str) composent longbow. The Asmier wizard is just a standerd god wizard with invetigative and social feats and skills.
Caul 10-21-04, 02:57 PM	Waves. Wave after wave of monsters or problems, don't give them time to rest, heal, or even breathe. Take their weapons away (focused dispels, disjunctions, dead magic zones etc.) Or, if you really want to challenge them...the three sisters Sora... just my two crowns.
Radiating Gnome 10-21-04, 03:13 PM	With bigger parties (more than 4) I often find that the best way to improve the challenge of a particular battle is to add numbers more than levels or advancement to a single creatures. The best thing about adding popcorn to an encounter is that you award experience based on individual creatures, not on the total challenge of the encounter. Now, at 7th level, they aren't quite there yet, but when they hit 9th level, you'll be able to start throwing tons of low level popcorn at them and not have to worry about rewarding them for killing all that popcorn. The primary advantage a large party has is that they get a lot more actions in around than a smaller, higher level party would. Counter than by upping the numbers of the foes they face, and it starts to even up that part of their advantage. If you can justify a tailor-made fight -- if it's reasonable for the Silver Flame avengers to know about the party and their abilities and plan for them -- then you can pick the battlefield very carefully. A couple of low-level spells like rays of enfeeblement (ranged touch, no save) can take a lot of punch out of the fighters right away. Another thing to think about: Bigger battlefields. Given the opportunity, in the heat of battle in wide open space, they will spread themselves quite thin, making it easy to attack smaller portions of the party. Scenarion idea: (this is based on the sort of tactics I can usually expect from players in my game -- your mileage may vary) So, if they're fighting the Silver Flame, and they've been particularly successful, the silver flame might decide to try to take them out, and set up an ambush of sorts for them. At their current effective party level (they average something like level 6.5, but there are six of them, so call it effectively 8) you could put them up against 4 8th level character types (Paladin/Archer/Wizard/Cleric), and about 20 2nd level Rangers. Call it a CR 13 encounter The rangers have been brought along for support, but their orders are to run and save themselves if any of the PCs get within melee range. Open the fight with an attack on the party from a squad of 10 Silver Flame archers hiding in the woods on one side of a ravine, about 300 feet away. They're sniping: From the SRD description of hide: Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot. From the SRD description of Spot: Per 10 feet of distance –1 So, at this range, the hidden archers will make their hide checks at -20 (sniping) +30 (distance)= +10. If they take 10, and have 4 first level ranks in hide, and a dex bonus of +2, they can take ten on those hide checks and force the PCs to make a spot check of DC 26 to see them. The archers are spread out so that area spells like fireball won't take more than two or maybe three out, but they're raining down arrows on the party. Missile fire at long range should target the archer -- all of them. Even if the hidden archers need 20's to hit, some will find the mark. The archer is the most consistent long distance threat to the archers and the other Silver Flame ambushers, so if he can be peppered and put on the defensive early, that's the best thing for the SF avengers. The party will not want to waste 5-10 spells to take out those archers, and the fighters will not want to wait around, so they'll probably charge -- actually run, most likely, since they can cover the 300 feet in a few rounds that way. Will they all charge, or will the archer hang back with the spellcasters while the two chain weilders close in? The main idea here is to try to spread out the party so it's difficult for them to support each other. Once the melee types have run for a few rounds, and are a couple of hundred feet away from the rest of the party, let them charge into the woods where the snipers are -- where they will be met by the full weight of the "real" SF party. If possible, again, focus the weight of the SF team on one target -- one of the chain dudes -- and try to take him down quickly. Remember those rays of enfeeblement -- it's great fun to make a heavily armored fighter a prisoner in his own armor. Hit a typical fighter with an 18 Str with 4 rays of enfeeblement -- that's at least 4d6 points of strength damage, it'll average out at something like 14, leaving the fighter with a STR of 4, shaving 7 points off his chance to hit and damage rolls, and probably the weight of what he's carrying will make it impossible for him to get away from the Avengers bearing down on him. Once the PCs get within 30 feet of a ranger, the ranger bolts. If your PCs are anything like mine, that will divide the PCs even more, as they try to chase down the fleeing rangers. That's what you want them to do. At the same time, the snipers on the other side of the ravine -- who have been waiting for the first rank of PCs to hit the tree-line and the first line of snipers -- also opens up on PCs that are still in the ravine -- probably the archer and spellcasters. Again, focus their fire on the archer first, then the wizard. By now, if the SF plan is going well, you've got the party spread out over a lot of ground, getting hit from two sides, and a couple of the members of the party - seeing that they're being targeted exclusively (the archer and chainfighter who the SF avenger party is focusing on) and that scares them. The heavily armored cleric is only half-way up the hill, and suddenly feels a bit naked. They'll also suspect that there's another party of higher level Avengers on the other side of the ravine. In the end, they will probably pull off some sort of escape, but they'll have their noses bloodied. They won't feel quite so tough anymore, and it'll probably make them more than a little agoraphobic. -rg
Aurum 10-21-04, 03:39 PM	The simple way to handle things is assume that the people the party is fighting are every bit as vindictive as the PCs. Have them fighting enemies who are smart enough to guess what class and abilities they have. Have... ...the fighters make Will Saves. ...the cleric pushed into ranged fighting. ...backstab attacks made on the wizard. ...the artificer pressed into melee. Also, have the parties enemies using weapons and items that can't be captured. Things like scrolls are excellent in this regard, and its not unreasonable to think a band of 5th level rogues sent to stop the party wouldn't have access to a few Hold Monster, Invisibility, or Deep Slumber scrolls that they use to surprise the party.
EberronJunkie 10-21-04, 07:26 PM	party vs npc party, its always better than fighting nameless monsters, have them with weird items, wands, potions of invisability, armour of faith and haste, plus if you ambush the players thats another negative for the players, plus anyrthing that makes people ethereal, gaseous or otherwise immune to stuff is always a plus. or vampires, spider climbing on the roof, with a cloak of invisability, possibly 10th level monk or something along those lines, i just love vamps going crazy with fists, or since its eberron get some of those weapon feats that monks have. like a longsword +2 with keen and haste. or a spike trapped that when someone tries to disabl it triggers a mudslide or somesuch.
helzapoppn 10-21-04, 08:01 PM	I also feel that the best weapon to use against a strong party of adventurers is ANOTHER strong party of adventurers. And since your party doesn't seem to favor the new races, have the party opposing them be mostly those races... Shifter Ranger 6 with Favored Enemies Goblinoids and Humans, with three Shifter feats; Valenar Elf Monk 6 with Double Steel Strike on his Double Scimitar; Warforged Artificer 7 who's powered up his own Spiked Chain (see how your guys like it) and buffed up the others as well; Changeling Rogue 7, maxed out on Hide, Disguise and Move Silently, who can use her special ability to get close and make sneak attacks; Kalashtar Psion 6, because I'll bet Psionics are your party's weak spot; Half-Orc Druid 7 from the Shadow Marches, perhaps a Gatekeeper Initiate with a Horrid Badger Animal Companion... Give them expendable magic items (potions and scrolls), a plan and the element of surprise, and watch the fun... :D
Brastan 10-21-04, 09:31 PM	Mix it up. I'm assuming that they've been fighting a more good an lawful opponent to date. Bring out the Darker side of the Silverflame. Throw in an evil cleric of the Silverflame who will bring with him so outsider assistance in the from of cannon fodder. I also have problems with PC powering though encounters with great speed. The main thing is to not let the big combatants into the melee until the PCs have deplete some of there major power. Consider a Fiend summoner. Make it out this guy has the ability to sustain summoning spells and also give him the ability to dump lots of summoned creatures into a combat quick. This guy should stay out of sight and chuck Fiends at the party. Creatures could be summoned adjacent to spell casters and archers. Also use the mercenaries as suggested. Potions, Potions, Potions! This is one thing Players have that very few villains have or make use of. Also make sure that big baddies have an Immediate out like most PCs usually do. Also the Silverflame has an archery base combat style. Its not unreasonable for your PCs to come across an expert sniper at some point. I guess your not out to kill your Players so I can throw this out with knowledge that it won't turn into a PC death fest. True Strike in one of the most powerful arcane spells for an archer. An archer can sit a 10 ranger increments ( close to 1000 ft. for some weapons) and still hit targets at regular accuracy. Give the archers hight advantage and cover. This makes it hard for the PCs as cover gives all sorts of benefits. Specialized Summoner Arcane Sniper Veteran anti-caster (sorcerer who specializes in most area damage spells and Dispell. Something that would have come about during the Last War.) Mounted Archer Charger (if you have the latest Dragon use the PrC from that) Bard/Marshal (Miniatures handbook) to bust the "pop corn" [I've never heard that term before] Add two more NPCs to rival hit team. Make sure they run if combat goes badly for ether side. As a last bit, don't forget about Calvary. With good Armored and Advanced mounts they could do one or two ride-bye's then exit.
darkthought 10-21-04, 09:39 PM	There's nothing saying that the Silver Flame wouldn't also hire out the lvl 12 bounty hunters from Thrashk. Also, next time they're in town, have a changling rogue pickpocket them. Suddenly, that nice +1 chain isn't there any more. (I had an evil dm that did this to me EVERY DAMN TIME I WENT INTO TOWN.)
Solarious 10-22-04, 12:10 AM	Looks like you are in need of the ways of TPH (Total Party Humiliation). Let's get down to business! :devil: To pull off this stunt, you only need a minimum of a single mid-level Artificer, a Changling to stalk the party, and several lower-level Warforged Fighters, archers specificly. Bards are optional, but very handy if your characters stay in urban areas. No, incredibly valuable... Mix in healers and Arcane Blasters to taste. First of all, have the Changling scout out the party in several guises, and find out as much as possible about the party. Their habits, tactics, etc. This will give you every excuse to pre-empt every move the party makes. :smirk: Second, every friggin time they try to rest, ambush them with a ranged attack of Warforged Archers equiped with Thunderstone arrows: this should keep them from resting, and wear them down. Do NOT let the PCs engage the Warforged directly if at all possible. You'll eventually get them fatuiged, and then exhausted. For reference: Fatigued: A fatigued character can neither run nor charge and takes a –2 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. Doing anything that would normally cause fatigue causes the fatigued character to become exhausted. After 8 hours of complete rest, fatigued characters are no longer fatigued. Exhausted: An exhausted character moves at half speed and takes a –6 penalty to Strength and Dexterity. After 1 hour of complete rest, an exhausted character becomes fatigued. A fatigued character becomes exhausted by doing something else that would normally cause fatigue. As you can see, this can give you a big edge :schemes: Third, if you included the optional Bard, have him/her spread vicious rumors about the PCs. Inspire disgust and hate. Take complete (and unfair) advantage of the Facinate ability, and then use Suggestion to tell them that they do something about these dispicable characters. When the lynch mob arrives, do your PCs a disfavour and make them sacred cows: if they start killing people, you have every excuse to brand them as villians and take off any kid gloves you are wearing. Fun, isn't it? :angel: Include the Bard in order to Countersong any enchantments through orary, and make the Suggestion override any attempts at Diplomacy. Fourth, make full use of the Artificer, especially the oft-overlooked Homunculi. An invisible Homonculi with a Widened Silence centered on it neatly foils many spellcasters just by being there, hovering invisble and inaudiable to all. Have Flitcher Homonculi sneak in between Thunderstone ambushes to take wands, potions, scrolls, rings, Metamagic Rods... anything that is important and small. Invisibility and an Extended Skill Enhancement keyed to Move Silently makes them particularly difficult to catch. Don't forget to have those sneaky Flitchers to poison anything and everything that they are going to eat :devil: A wand of Summon Monster is good for harrassing them without risking the Artificer, and usually doesn't count as hostile action for Invisibility. The goal of all this is to exhast them of their resources, and make them far less effective than usual. Once your PCs are walking (and sorta alive :smirk: ) corpses, you can now move whatever fighting force of your choice in, and subdue them and strip them of EVERYTHING they have, including the clothes off their backs. Then dump them naked into a seedy district of your choice. Now, tell me, what does this plan sound like? :schemes:
Splendide 10-22-04, 12:39 AM	An archer with Improved Invisibility shooting from high cover should seem them all dead pretty easily. Maybe a dwarven repeating crossbowman in the mountains. Double that with an Improved Invisibility dwarven mage throwing summoned creatures down at the party, preferably while invisibly flying. MUAHAHAHA! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!
Brastan 10-22-04, 02:19 AM	subdue them and strip them of EVERYTHING they have, including the clothes off their backs. Then dump them naked into a seedy district of your choice. I though snipers from cover was bad. Were as the sniper is aggravating it doesn't inspire the same sort of blood hate rage that striping them would bring. Is it a challenge or the utter annihilation of the Church of the Silver Flame your after with that one? I know my players (and there charters) would bring hard and probably evil retribution to the perpetuators. Only death would stop them, and even then they might try to come back as ghosts and continue on. Swiping the PCs stuff is not always such a good idea. Small expendables yes, weapons and armor no. The should come out of a challenging combat encounter bleeding, shaken, and with one or two down companions but still victorious ( if marginally so). An archer with Improved Invisibility shooting from high cover should seem them all dead pretty easily. Naa. As soon as the first PC is hit they'll go for cover or make some if needed. They'll panic and get hit once or twice more, but after that they should have found a safe spot to hide. Something just occurred to me, is the Group in question acting as unit with established and effective tactics or as an odd collection of individuals? That changes things. A coordinated group is much much more dangerous than a lose group.
magicbehere 10-22-04, 07:21 AM	Radiating Gnome, I tryed your stratigy at last nights game, as soon as the arrows started flying my PCs were like "oh sh**" then the Artificer was like "ah! Now is the perfect chance to test my new invention!" then the entire group activates there Armbands of Wind Wall and none of the arrows get through. He made them last game but i forgot to add them to his character sheet :weep:. I changed tactics and had an Ice Devil be summoned in and he started to give them some trouble, none of them could bypass his DR so as soon as the Clerics Init hit he summoned a Hound Archon to fight it, the Archon didn't by any meens kill it but it held it off long enouph for the Artificer to make his morningstar and the Archer's Longbow evil outsider bane and smash the thing into a bloody pulp with help from the wizards 3 Celestial Bisons. After that the enemy party attacked derectly and after 2 crits (very lucky) the enemy fighter was down, the 2 clerics were slughtered by Fire Ball. The Ranger and Wizard ran away but were both killed by the seeking longbow. Then the party teleported away, the artificer had made a one shot teleportation item when he reached level 7 and now they are safe and sound with good old Vol. PS: They leveled up and still only have levels in their core classes. It would alsohelp to mention the Artificer and Wizard can use Gasious Form and Dimention Door 2/day because of items they have that the artificer made, right now he is makeing more of them for the party with thr reward they got from Vol for stealing the Special Material she needed for her advanced weapon, you know like the one that destroyed Cyre. She will be finished in 7 sessions (so 2 weeks worth) and it will end my campaign when the party deployes the weapon to destroy the Undying Court and all attain immortality. I really want the final battles to be extremly difficult. After that I will be DMing a home brew setting, i've cut HP in almost in half and armor gives DR with class based AC bonuses.
nyysjan 10-22-04, 08:37 AM	big big bloody bloody big dragons :OMG!
Radiating Gnome 10-22-04, 09:48 AM	I'm sorry they had a quick answer for the long range sniping thing -- but I'm sure they enjoyed that their device worked. Did the wind wall also block the archers from the other side of the ravine? Now that you've given a more detailed description of their tactics . . . They sound like pretty savvy PCs. And that's a good thing. I'd just keep ramping up the challenges. There are still plenty of low-level things that can make them miserable. First level spells, used en masse, can be very deadly. You could have an enemy artificer put together a unit of 20 first level magewrights and artificers, each armed with a 5-shot wand of magic missiles, and orders to fire them off and then run. Put that unit in the reserve. Once the next fight begins, their job is to target the artificer. He's the factor that allows the party to be so flexible, so for this attack we can identify him as the biggest threat. Then you set traps for them -- let them come across a minefield of magical traps. The trap in the road that they encounter triggers an area effect greater dispel magic. Off the side of the to road in both directions there are other magical traps waiting for them -- some that trigger silence spells, creating pockets where the casters cannot cast, etc. Also, trigger protection from evil (or good, or whatever will work) to keep summoned creatures from being able to enter the area. Then start hitting them with your archers again. Create a couple of warforged fighers with adamatine weapons and a maxed-out package for sundering, and send them after the party -- preferably with invisibility cast on them, and with the Archer's bow as the primary target of their sundering efforts. That bow made it impossible for the SF avengers to escape last time, it should be a target this time around. All of your major Avengers should be warded with Protection from Good(evil, law, whatever), which will prevent summoned creatures from beign able to attack them at all -- turn those summoned nasties into spectators. The fighting starts when the trap goes off, and the PCs are all recovering from the effects of the first dispell magic. The archers (this time froma decoy direction first) will open up with their arrows, and the PCs will activate their armband wind walls, if those still work. Then the Artificer gets hit with the first barage of 20 magic missiles. That's going to average out to be something like 60 points of damage. That'll put the fear of god in him. Have the magic missile company keep pecking at him that way until he gets up a shield spell to block them. Then the main party can try to go to work on the bad guys again. This time, think about an illusionist, who can create the illusion of a dragon to try to get the party to expend some of their biggest, baddest spells. * Do your best to make the battle last a long time, especially if the party relies a lot on summoned help to fight their battles for them. Summoned help doesn't stick around very long (I think it's like 1 round/level) so if the bad guys can avoid dealing with the summoned stuff for a while the problem will take care of itself. The SF Avengers need to work on a strategy of trying to get the PCs to expend their spells for the day in a long battle of attrition. Every ridge should have a line of archers that will fire three volleys of arrows and then retreat. * Force the PCs to hunt for food. They are probably not carrying a ton of food on them, and using spells to create food is another waste of resources they could use for combat. Have the outriders of the SF Avengers do their best to drive off any game in the area. AND, the archer will have to move off on his own to hunt -- if he intends to take the whole party with him to hunt, to be safe, give him a -2 circmumstane bonus (or more) to his survival check for every additional person he brings along. Then, after a few days of hunting, when he's alone, or nearly alone, set up an ambush just for him. Part of the trick is to make this bit of travel they're doing an ordeal. Remember that travel in Khorvaire is long an dangerous, especially if they're doing it off the House Orien roads. Settlements are few and far between, and the distances they have to travel are vast. They might be able to teleport around a bit now but I don't know that they can teleport the whole group at this level, and even if they can, the weight limit might keep them from bringing everything along that they might like to. * What about trying to hit the archer's quiver of arrows with a Warp Wood spell? Or on his bow? -rg
BuddyL33 10-22-04, 09:55 AM	Why not design an encounter that is impossible to over come by force. Something that the party realises they have to face, but know they will be destroyed if they attack it. Make them defeat the encounter using non-combat means.
Gurv 10-22-04, 11:07 AM	I'm impressed. It sounds like you have some skilled players. If they are having fun and moving along in the plot, it shouldn't be a problem if they "kill everything i throw at them". They ARE the PCs, after all. But I'll assume that the lack of challenge is making the game less fun, as everyone else has. Who does the elf cleric follow and what are his domains? Undying Court? There are two basic ways to increase the challange of an encounter. Make the bad guys tougher, or add more of them. Adding more is usually the better answer, because a single powerful creature can kill PCs by accident. But having run a game with two spiked-chain fighters, I know the pain of combat reflexes and great cleave. Just don't make the mistake I did and let them become Devoted Defenders (they were protecting each other <shudders>). What you need to do it carefully use both tactics. Double the number of bad guys you throw at them, and increase the power of each one a notch or two. Use tactics against them. Have ranged characters focus on a single target. Take them out one at a time without spreading your resources. Give the bad guys an advantage. Have them all drink potions of spider climb or fly. Haste them. Invisible cleric with a cure wand. Add some low- or mid-level illusions to the fight, a couple of extra bad guys and the players waste attacks on people who won't die...perhaps assume that ALL the bad guys are illusions. Now, forget the bad guys for a minute. One of the best ways to mess up a cohesive party is to take them out of their element, literally. Little things like using all the rules on terrain can change the battlefield in your favor. Attack them while they scale a wall or a building. Put them on a flying carpet (or a skycoach etc; God I love Eberron), and attack them with multiple flying opponents. Things like that.
Dex The King 10-22-04, 11:12 AM	Yes, nothing humbles power gamers faster than an encounter that they can't fight through. You say they have some sort of deal with Vol? Have Vol decide to "alter" the deal a little. Force them to go on some incredibly dangerous mission. When they get there, there's a trap, and it's an encounter level way higher than they can reasonably deal with. Here's a few examples of what that could be: An entire battalion of elite Karrnathi troops; Karrnathi skeletons, a vampire commander, and the magic missle unit. A few trolls, and their beholder leader. Ambush. The trolls surround the party, and the beholder lays down the antimagic. Put the beholder behind some naturally occuring fog, and they won't even know why their magic isn't working. Also, chances are that without magic, they'll never be able to kill the trolls. Whatever you choose, make it clear that whatever greets them was tipped off by someone (Vol) that the party would be there. If they win, and come back to Vol she refuses to give them their reward, and breaks all the deals she had with them. She thanks them for being good puppets, and obeying their master so well. But, as for immortality, it would be far better suited to her non-PC minions. Tough luck, goodbye. She doesn't attack them, and let's them go if they remain nonviolent. If they attack her, then she shows them what a 2,000 year old 16th level lich necromancer can do when she's angry. Especially considering all of her undead minions. Bonus Points: Make her 17th level. Quickened fear to lower their saves, followed by wail of the banshee. Also, do they know exactly who Vol is? If not, you can have more fun with this. In my campaign, I always refer to Vol as a goddess. The goddess of immortality, death, and unlife. She uses all sorts of visual tricks to make it very convincing that she is divine. Therefore, PCs can't tell she's bluffing without metagaming (and do I ever punish for doing that). Even otherwise fearless PCs pause before facing a goddess. Good luck, and sorry about all of the ranting.
Argonel 10-22-04, 11:46 AM	A warband of mixed Ogres might be called for possibly hired as mercenaries specifically to fight your group. Combined with some of the other ideas here they could really give your group a run for their money. I would probably use an Ogre magi to deal with with the casters and ogres to attack the rest of the party. Arming the ogres with Javelins and reach weapons will make them a challenge for the party as they will out reach the chain wielders forcing attacks of opportunity when they move in to attack. Their larger size and high strength will also make them difficult to trip. Using Javelins will also reduce the effectivness of the wind wall with a 30% miss chance instead of 100% from bows. The Ogre mages abilities to cast invisibility and darkness at will, plus spell resistance and flight will make it a strong opponent. The major weakness would be the artificer making bane weapons but that will cost him action points. With only 8 action point until he levels (assuming he doesn't have an action point feat) he must be running low by now.
helzapoppn 10-22-04, 12:09 PM	Considering that there are a mere handful of high-powered NPCs in all of Khorvaire, your PCs are guaranteed to have a reputation. Any NPC Bard on the continent could make a Bardic Knowledge check and learn about them...based solely on their exploits. This makes them fair game for bounty hunter parties of all nationalities. And if they are obviously linked with the Blood of Vol...well, Vol has a LOT of enemies, not just the Silver Flame, and a moderately-difficult Bardic Knowledge check would reveal that the PCs are clearly Vol's Elite force. As if that's not enough, I would rule that at this point VOL HERSELF is afraid of the PCs. I'm sure they expect to be betrayed by their Evil Benefactress, but still this does take away their last safe haven. It's a shame that you think you have to end this campaign, just when your Players are having fun. There's just so much you can still do. Lot of good ideas on this thread. Something's gotta stick eventually. Just thought of something else... Put them in a Dal Quor encounter. In the Dreamlands, YOU control the reality. What does your party fear? Play it up, have fun, give them a unique challenge. SCENARIO: Start them on a seemingly-normal encounter, let them work together and do whatever they do...but when the combat starts reveal that THIS IS DAL QUOR...their magic items don't work, their Spiked Chains always Fumble, and so on.
helzapoppn 10-22-04, 12:15 PM	A warband of mixed Ogres might be called for possibly hired as mercenaries specifically to fight your group. Combined with some of the other ideas here they could really give your group a run for their money. I would probably use an Ogre magi to deal with with the casters and ogres to attack the rest of the party. Arming the ogres with Javelins and reach weapons will make them a challenge for the party as they will out reach the chain wielders forcing attacks of opportunity when they move in to attack. Their larger size and high strength will also make them difficult to trip. Using Javelins will also reduce the effectivness of the wind wall with a 30% miss chance instead of 100% from bows. The Ogre mages abilities to cast invisibility and darkness at will, plus spell resistance and flight will make it a strong opponent. The major weakness would be the artificer making bane weapons but that will cost him action points. With only 8 action point until he levels (assuming he doesn't have an action point feat) he must be running low by now. I like this idea, too. Because the Ogre warband could have been sent by the Daughters of Sora Kell...who I don't think WANT the world to end on Vol's terms, and have the scrying capacity to know EXACTLY what the PCs are up to... :schemes:
Peaceforged 10-22-04, 01:34 PM	Silver Flame... hmmm... Here is a small Silver Flame Inquisitor team. 1 Level 8 Silver Flame High Inquisitor - With equipment that gives SR 1 8HD Fire Elemental Servant 2 Level 7 Champions of the flame (paladins) SR 3 Level 6 Heralds of the flame (clerics) 4 Level 5 Fists of the flame (monks) 5 Level 4 Church Harriers (Rangers) Now in the background of this group is a group of 4 church artifacers who have infused everything this assult group has. The details are up to you. The second thing, the church has exploited it's influence to sieze the assets of the group. Taking everything the characters have in the banks and or raiding the characters stronghold/safehouse while they are out on adventure. The point of this group is to hold/capture the players so that they can stand trial. Setting. This group is not a group that the players go after. No this is a group that tracks the players down, in a city right after they have returned from an adventure or, at the adventure location where they wait until the adventurers have already fought something big. That is what I would do to my party. If the party just rolls over and kills this group. They have pretty much signed a death warrant, because the church is going to send everyone (like Gary Oldman in the Professional everyone). They are will stop at nothing until the group is killed or stands trial.
billseurer 10-22-04, 01:53 PM	Give the ogres some heavy armor and good weapons, too. I did a mixed group of ogres in plate armor with (large) long spears and (large) morningstars/large shields and they did quite well against with 6-7th level players.
Argonel 10-22-04, 02:02 PM	Silver Flame... hmmm... Here is a small Silver Flame Inquisitor team. I like this idea. Especially with different tactics than what people usually use. I would use effects to immobilize the party and attempt to knock them out. Stunning abilities, ability drain, nets, lassos, and non-lethal damage. If the group kills off the attacking team, who are all wearing tabards of the silver flame let the curch start increasing the level of attackers. If the group escapes without killing the team, more power to them and they are now being hunted. Most groups start getting a lot more nervous about taking non-lethal damage than getting killed. Also if the hunting team suceeds in immobilizing or incapacitating any of the players I would have them immediatly change tactics to withdraw with their prisoner.
magicbehere 10-22-04, 04:21 PM	Considering that there are a mere handful of high-powered NPCs in all of Khorvaire, your PCs are guaranteed to have a reputation. Any NPC Bard on the continent could make a Bardic Knowledge check and learn about them...based solely on their exploits. This makes them fair game for bounty hunter parties of all nationalities. And if they are obviously linked with the Blood of Vol...well, Vol has a LOT of enemies, not just the Silver Flame, and a moderately-difficult Bardic Knowledge check would reveal that the PCs are clearly Vol's Elite force. As if that's not enough, I would rule that at this point VOL HERSELF is afraid of the PCs. I'm sure they expect to be betrayed by their Evil Benefactress, but still this does take away their last safe haven. It's a shame that you think you have to end this campaign, just when your Players are having fun. There's just so much you can still do. Lot of good ideas on this thread. Something's gotta stick eventually. Just thought of something else... Put them in a Dal Quor encounter. In the Dreamlands, YOU control the reality. What does your party fear? Play it up, have fun, give them a unique challenge. SCENARIO: Start them on a seemingly-normal encounter, let them work together and do whatever they do...but when the combat starts reveal that THIS IS DAL QUOR...their magic items don't work, their Spiked Chains always Fumble, and so on. Yey after the feasco with the Adult Red and White Dragons in the Eldreen Reaches they are some of the most well know heros in Kovahaire. They way I have stated Vol she could easily kill them if she fought them on her terms on her ground but if they were just in an empty feild and she had her 4 elite body guards she would be dead pritty fast. This is due to the fact that they have been using alot of Vols resorses and have equiped themselves like level 20s, I know they plan on adding at least 1 more plus and ability to their weapons next game. The artificer has items for ever situation imaginable, at level 3 mass magic missle was no longer an option, they all have countinous sheild charms. Well the campaign is ending soon because we have been at it for a while and they want to start a differnt kind of adventure. In this game their characters are all like Seals, they use plently of one-shot spell items (Fireball, Scorching Rays, Gasious Form for those without set items), use permanent Rary's Telepathic Bond and Status, Psionic Tattoos up the ying yang, can you say 50 Vigor Tattos on each fighter? And in this campaigns the adventures were not all linked very strongly, until they joined Vol at level 5&6 everything they did was unrealated and even with Vol they were always off on differnt types of missions. For this new campaign they acctualy want me to design their level 2 characters for them, they want one common perpose for the entire campaign, I have disded on a Pilgramage to save the World! How origonal but they like the idea, they even want me to choose who gets to be the chossen one with special powers and what each of their party roles will be. I am going to try to work in all of your idea into the next 7 sessions and that you very much for the advice, exept Vol turning on them, She will need them to the last minute since the Artificer has done alot of work on the components to the bomb himself and Vol doesnt know how to use it, Vol just made the delivery system: a teleportal.
jonthegm 10-22-04, 04:48 PM	The artificer has items for ever situation imaginable, at level 3 mass magic missle was no longer an option, they all have countinous sheild charms. Heh, hit 'em with a greater dispel, THEN blast them with magic missile... Also, Vol would never be in an empty field... that's dumb, and she's not. Especially now that the PC's are well known, she will only meet with them when she holds the advantage. Also, she'll have prepared a way to take them down (probably with a lot of necromancy effects...). For example... if they ever threaten Vol, a few retainers would probably cast Silence and Darkness on the party, thus making belief checks on the illusory floor between Vol and the PCs a moot point (though, they should be given a chance to notice them beforehand... If you're not comfortable with that, make it mechanical... in fact, go with a combo... an illusion on top of a mechanical trap... that way if they see through it, they just see more floor...). Defensive spells go on, tailored to the PCs typical tactics. Then start hammering the darkened area with meteor swarms, wave of fatigue, acid fog, etc. until an invisible minion or two sees them leave and gives the high sign.
JDubTrafficGod 10-22-04, 05:34 PM	Silver Flame... hmmm... Here is a small Silver Flame Inquisitor team. 1 Level 8 Silver Flame High Inquisitor - With equipment that gives SR 1 8HD Fire Elemental Servant 2 Level 7 Champions of the flame (paladins) SR 3 Level 6 Heralds of the flame (clerics) 4 Level 5 Fists of the flame (monks) 5 Level 4 Church Harriers (Rangers) I love this group setup; I'm sending this to myself in an e-mail for future reference. Definitely a higher-level Inquisitor team, but all the same if the Silver Flame even has a hint that they work with Vol this would be perfect. Also check out the carcass crab for your PCs. I didn't think they we're all that great till I threw a modded 6th level carcass crab at my players and almost killed 'em. Here's how to make it effective as all get out verses your players. Run it as standard carcass crab, maybe level him up a few dice. Your spiked chain fighters will not trip him, and the crab has ten foot reach so their advantage in that is null. Put a few poison barbs in the archer and he's nullified. Here's one of my favorite things; grab one of your fighters or one of the more damaging casters, after you have him grappled bite him, on the head, and hold him there, in the Crabs mouth, if the guy struggles chew on him, otherwise just grapple him with the things mouth. Next grab your next nearest PC and throw him at the target thats done the most damage or the opponent in the least amount of armor. Not sure of the damage that a thrown object does per weight value, I know its somewhere in the book(s). Just beat them around a little, and make them come to respect Crustaceans. A good way to work a Carcass Crab into the game is to have the PCs chasing/tracking (preferably tracking) a group of Aggressive Enemy NPCs. Have them chasing them because they stole something, attacked them, whatever your reason. They are behind the NPCs by a few hours, when the tracks lead into a swamp. The PCs immediately begin to notice discarded pieces or armor and weapons, and lots of bones/bits of bodies around. The farther in they go the more bits or armor/weapons and people they find, eventually seeing piles of armor scattered about, both on land and out in the water creating miniature islands. Finally they come to a larger marshy island with three or four piles of armor scattered about. In the center of the island are the ripped apart bodies of the PC quandaries, though the NPC enemy Wizard only appears to have been beaten to death, not ripped apart as his comrades were. (At this point let the PCs make a spot or listen check, if they fail then they get no actions in the surprise round. For PCs who make the check "A pile of bodies and armor shudders, then lifts from ground and moves toward you, you notice the head of the enemy Warforged plastered on the side of the things body." And for those who don't make the check "You suddenly hear a low his, and as you turn to look for the sound, you catch a whiff of death, rust, and iron. Before you stands a beast that can only be described as carnage." If the PCs fight the carcass crab in the swamp, the crab can choose to throw the PCs out into the water, or to grapple opponents and move into the water carrying them with him. Oh and don't forget the cover he receives for being in a grapple.) Yay for doom!
JDubTrafficGod 10-22-04, 05:35 PM	Oh, and if you level 6/7 party can honestly take out Vol then they are gimp, and not in a good way.
magicbehere 10-22-04, 06:40 PM	gimp? what does that mean?
JDubTrafficGod 10-25-04, 05:51 AM	Gimp is just Gimp. I don't know, it just is. Its one of those thigns cool people say to make them look better. My intention was to convey my feeling that they are overpowered.
nyysjan 10-25-04, 06:05 AM	Poison backstabbing lies rumors. make them gues what is going on fight dirty use deceptions. you can't hit what isn't there or deflect an attack unless you see it comming
Delusionist 10-25-04, 02:49 PM	Surely there is at least one dragon who has read something about Vol's plans in the Prophecy. Likewise at least one member of the Undying Court knows of the mounting thread. A host of either or both of these parties would be an awesome force. Some one mentioned the Daugthers of Sora Krell. They know, make no mistake about it. While they may not be willing to confront the PCs or Vol head on they would likely provide information to those willing to do so. The daelkyr wouldn't go for Vol ending the world, that's THEIR job. How dare some upstart threaten reality? :) Think the Lords of the Dust are about to let some HALF-dragon, not even a real dragon, ruin their party? The level it sounds like the campaign is playing at would involve high level foes. Extra-planar celestials and fiends may not be that interested, they have their own war to fight but those parties involved in the real world would take notice. The end of the world is at stake so unlikely alliances would be formed. A daelkyr sponsored group would have something along the lines of: - Cavalry based on those mushed together goblin creatures - the name escapes me. Perhaps these are even elite members of that group with fighter or rogue levels. Extra attacks, small size, 5 DR. Not inconsiderable. - Chokers, a small contingent of these to keep the spell casters distracted. Maybe add some rogue levels to these little gems. - Dolgaunt monks - chain fighters meet your match. Tripping, grappling, DR 5, reach, Constitution damage and BLINDSIGHT. Grapple and flurry of blows. - Dolgaunt rogues - BLINDSIGHT and reach sneak attack - tentacles. - Clerics of the Dragon Below to cast darkness and such on the dolgaunts. - Oh, these are aberrations after all so let the small creatures ride something the size of a pony that makes every plate mail clad fighter tremble, rust monsters. Those dual goblin beasties or chokers riding these would be devastating. The spell casters have to deal with them because the fighters would soon be defenseless and weaponless if they engage. The riders would be equipped with clubs, quarterstaves, stone weapons or would have to take precautions but that's not a big deal. These wartrained beasts would have the Run feat so they can move at 200 feet a round to close quickly. - One bard of the monster type of your choice. Song of the Heart means a minimum of +2 to hit and damage. The idea of one of those dual goblin creatures as a bard is amusing, built in back up singer. I am going to use that sometime. The cavalry leads a charge from behind some sort of cover. Those that survive the spellcasters engage in close combat. The rust monsters have fun with the armor and weapons of the PCs. The riders assault the PCs that they can get to, reach weapons are nice. The chokers make the lives of the spell casters difficult. Once the spellcasters are grappled, the dolgaunts arrive with deeper darkness if available. The tripping and grappling that ensues should leave the party quite weakened. When combined with the damage dolgaunts do to Constitution it gets hairy quickly. Every 2 points of Con damage means a loss of level HP. A couple of those bad boys latching onto you can ruin your day. If more firepower is necessary, equip members with symbionts. The cleric at a minimum should have the breastplate. The bard would be well served by a tentacle whip or two. If necessary, have this party led by a beholder. Anti-magic ray would cripple the party. Perhaps let the PCs think they have the cavalry beat then surprise, magic doesn't work. I am mulling over how the Valenar would approach the group. I imagine they'd love to test their mettle against such worthy foes. A group of dervish rangers, druids, monks, and barbians would be interesting. Never forget the power of Sunder. I don't know how you view TPK but given the stakes, any party that engages this group is going to be playing for keeps. The characters are working on ending the world, the players may give you a little leeway in the harshness of your response to them. Their foes may let one live to question but that's not likely to be a spell caster. Then again, a spell caster doesn't need his or her eyes or limbs to answer questions. A couple doses of negative energy would neutralize their big guns and the lack of sleep would keep them otherwise pacified. It could be amusing to see the characters end up in that prison in the Lhazaar Principalities.
helzapoppn 10-25-04, 11:14 PM	So really, getting back to the original post, there is NO SHORTAGE of enemies, large and small, 'good' or 'evil,' that have a big stake in what Vol and your PCs are up to. I'm smiling as I imagine what happens when the Silver Flame Strike Force runs into the Valenar Elite Warband...then just as they're starting to fight for the privilege of taking out the PCs, in comes the Ogre/Ogre Mage company sent by the Daughters of Sora Kell, a squadron of Dragons from Argonessen, and the Dolgrim/Dolgaunt/Aberration force from the depths of Khyber... And for good measure, don't forget the Twelve and the Aurum joining forces to hire House Tharashk to 'Find the servants of Vol', and House Deneith to 'Get 'em Dead or Alive.' Whole companies of Deneith mercs book passage on Orien's Lightning Rail and Lyrandar Airships to find the PCs wherever they try to hide...communicating their progress via House Sivis messages. If the entire world really is about to end if Vol gets what she wants, you can make a case for EVERY ONE of these forces getting involved (PLUS the Lord of Blades, PLUS the Inspired, PLUS the intelligence/spy services of the Five Nations, PLUS the Sharn underworld, etc., etc.). When the PCs are finally ground down and beaten, hand their bodies to Mordain the Fleshweaver, just to make it complete.
Splendide 10-26-04, 12:12 AM	Just drug their food and slit their damn throats. Easy as.