Party question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Party question [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
technodemon
09-25-04, 03:19 PM Ss it me or is the artificer is so diverse that the wizard is left in the dirt for party usage? I mean what can a wizard do in a party if you have an Artificier?
Kane ir'Omik
09-25-04, 03:26 PM er...draw attacks in mass combat situations?
SirLoin
09-25-04, 03:29 PM Cast a spell in less than 10 rounds. Artificers are not much of an offensive combat caster class.
Wizards spell will always occur, whereas an Artificer needs to make a Use Magic Device Roll.
CzarGarrett
09-25-04, 03:29 PM It seems like the artificer does more with temporary manipulation of items, while a wizard does more manipulation with energies.
stone_dog
09-25-04, 03:30 PM Well, there are a lot of spells that the wizard has regular access to that the artificer is dependant on magic items for. With the right selection of feats a wizard can still cast fireball (or whatever) even when stripped of all magical tools. The wizard can also make full use of a ring of wizardry while an artificer might find that such a ring would be too erratic to get much good use out of.

The artificer is really nifty, true, but a full wizard can lay the arcane smackdown much more reliably than the artificer can.
technodemon
09-25-04, 03:34 PM So what would be the true role of the wizard In Eberron? This of with the whole swajbuckler and pulp/noir feel to it.
stone_dog
09-25-04, 03:43 PM A wizard is a studious master of the arcane arts. Just like everywhere else.

Artificers won't be reliable combat casters with wands or staves until high levels, at which point the wizards will still have the versatility advantage due to spell selection, more spell slots and reliable casting.

Artificers can try to pretend to be wizards to make magic items work, but they don't always function for them. Wizards are still wizards and their wands always work.
SirLoin
09-25-04, 03:46 PM So what would be the true role of the wizard In Eberron?
Always walking, never talking, casting his magic.....
You know the rest.
CzarGarrett
09-26-04, 02:29 PM Always walking, never talking, casting his magic.....
You know the rest.

Nice.

Sabbath rules.

Overall, I think if I wanted to be able to just run around and blow stuff up, the most likely would be Wizard. Taking a more cautious approach would be artificer, but thats not to say the wizard can't be more cautious.
Ectoplasmoid
09-27-04, 10:57 AM 1) Fireball/scorching ray with more damge
2) Face-Stabination :D
tylerthehobo
09-27-04, 10:57 AM Yeah, the role of a wizard's been sidelined in my group in favor of a Gnome Artificer + Warforged Barbarian who work as a team like Master Blaster from the last Mad Max movie. The barbarian's the brawn, and the artificer beefs him up with spells before and during combat.
Doctor X
09-28-04, 01:26 AM I'd say that the Wizard still is, overall, the best for arcane blasting. The Artificer lacks of actual combat-ready spell-slots. None of his Infusions can really be used as attacks, and most of the best ones have extremely long "casting" times. The Artificer is more of an out-of-combat jack-of-all-trades, untill he's powerful enough to craft wands and staves. But with all the money and XP that goes into those, they still don't make up for the lack of actual combat-ready spell slots.

If I were a Wizard in a party with an Artificer, I'd really enjoy myself. It'd give me less to worry about. Since he or she could pretty much take care of all the item creation, I could use my feats on metamagic, spell penetration, and spell focus. In Eberron, this can be a very cool focus for a Wizard... studying the manipulation of arcane energies in their purest-- putting them straight to use instead of into items.

To apply the pulp/noir feel, I'd accent his acedemic background with studies at prestigious institutions... probably Arcanix. But he would be a very arrogant learner that was eventually kicked out for whatever reason... maybe he didn't respect the forces he was toying with? An illusionist who played one too many practical jokes might be cool for that... or maybe an evoker who started shooting rays around recklessly. Maybe he would try using them to do things that would be better (and more safely) achieved by mundane means, such as lighting candles or killing flies...
Kolakuba
09-28-04, 07:48 AM Ss it me or is the artificer is so diverse that the wizard is left in the dirt for party usage? I mean what can a wizard do in a party if you have an Artificier?

errrrr...... Don't waste all the party wealth...... ;)
Teslacoil1138
09-28-04, 08:40 AM Cast a spell in less than 10 rounds. Artificers are not much of an offensive combat caster class.
Wizards spell will always occur, whereas an Artificer needs to make a Use Magic Device Roll.

Wizards also need to make Concentration checks in adverse conditions. Thought admittedly, the DC is lower and easier to make.
fizzbang
09-28-04, 08:52 AM Getting into the conversation a little late, but I'll add my input, even though stone_dog's covered the vital points quite well already.

Ss it me or is the artificer is so diverse that the wizard is left in the dirt for party usage? I mean what can a wizard do in a party if you have an Artificier?

I had thought that at first, too, but after playing with an artificer and no wizard or sorcerer, I can say without a doubt that there's a very solid difference.

A Wizard (or Sorcerer) is pretty much always able to unleash arcane nastiness, and can develop the highest level spells. They may wear out over the course of a day, but as long as they can rest and re-memorize, they'll always have access to a variety of the most powerful spells.

An Artificer needs time, money, skill and xp to prepare the scrolls, wands and other items that he'll rely on to have an effective magical offense. Without these, he has to fall back on his very slow infusions (almost entirely useful only for buffing others) and his medium base attack and heavy armor proficiency.

It's really a mistake to think that Artificers specifically replace Wizards/Sorcerers. They can fill in for them in a pinch (or for Clerics, as far as healing), but it becomes a very expensive drain on party funds and time as they're constantly having to craft scrolls, potions and wands. And even then, unless they're solely focused on Use Magic Device, they're always taking a minor risk that they'll fail to use them when it comes down to it.

When it comes down to it, Artificers are most like Bards: they're good jack-of-all trades, but their real benefit for a party is that they make everyone else much more powerful. They can supply magic items, give last-minute boosts (never underestimate the benefit of suddenly making an ally's weapon into a Bane weapon), round out skills (even checking for traps like a rogue), and carrying around scrolls for those sometimes-just-what-you-need spells like knock or cure disease.

(As a side note, I've also seen interesting ideas about making an Artificer as a combat-character, in the same way that one can make a Cleric as a combat-character. They're both proficient in all armor, don't worry about spell failure, and have powerful support spells available to them, so it's not impossible. Make it a Warforged Artificer, and you can heal yourself, too...)

So what would be the true role of the wizard In Eberron? This of with the whole swajbuckler and pulp/noir feel to it.

I can't recall a page number, but it's described well in the book (or maybe in one of Keith's comments on the board?): in Eberron, Wizards are the scientists, Artificers are the engineers, and Magewrights are the craftsmen.

Wizards are still the end-all be-all of arcane might, learning the most powerful arcane magics and developing new applications for arcane techniques. They're the ones that make new spells and find the information behind magical phenomenon like the Mournlands disaster. Admittedly, Artificers do end up far overshadowing Wizards for item-creation, but it just means that Wizards are free to focus their xp towards the biggest spells and the occasional scroll.

Artificers, on the other hand, focus almost entirely on items: they're the undisputed masters of taking the magic that exists and infusing it into powerful new devices. The magical marvels sold at shops or traveling around the continent are their domain, but it's very rare that they can make actual new infusions. They may be able to use a codex to create a better magical item, but their own on-the-fly infusions are rarely improved, and never reach the same level of power as their arcane cousins. But they work well alongside a Wizard or other primary spellcaster.

As for an example of the Wizard in pulp Eberron? They're the brilliant researcher, testing their arcane studies in the field. They're the working student who needs to collect some rare samples for their studies. They're the corrupt professor, looking to use their knowledge of the arcane powers in the ancient tomb to unleash a monster for revenge.

Imagine the brilliant wizard who's been studying the arcane ritual used by the giants of Xen'drick. From this questionable research, she's developed a new spell with the power to twist the fabric of reality itself. Suddenly, she realizes that she's opened a very dangerous line of research, and that if this arcane technique falls into the hands of the wrong person, it could mean the fall of Khorvaire. Needless to say, the word of her discovery gets out, and suddenly her discovery has earned the attention of servants of Vol, the Lords of Dust, the Chamber, and anyone else with a substantial amount of arcane power and interest in the fate of the world...
ENHenry
09-28-04, 09:35 AM In Robert Apirin's "Myth" fantasy comedy series, there were two types of mages - the actual mages, and the people known as "mechanics", which was a derogatory term for those who didn't have the skill to work actual magic, but who relied on magic items to do their jobs with. I could see Eberron Wizards and Sorcerers having a similar derogatory opinion toward Artificers - as gimmicky gadgeteers who couldn't cast a light spell without help, and who feed off of their hard work.
fizzbang
09-28-04, 09:42 AM In Robert Apirin's "Myth" fantasy comedy series, there were two types of mages - the actual mages, and the people known as "mechanics", which was a derogatory term for those who didn't have the skill to work actual magic, but who relied on magic items to do their jobs with. I could see Eberron Wizards and Sorcerers having a similar derogatory opinion toward Artificers - as gimmicky gadgeteers who couldn't cast a light spell without help, and who feed off of their hard work.

I haven't read the series, but it could definitely work in Eberron. Similarly, Artificers could regard Wizards as intellectual geeks who have no knowledge of how to really get the most use out of their magic, and who'd still be fiddling with pointless details if they weren't around to point out how their magic can be put to use.

Talking with a friend in the computer science field, they made an excellent comparison: Wizards are reaseach and theoretical scientists, while Artificers are applied scientists and engineers. (Meanwhile, I suppose Sorcerers are talented prodigies.)
technodemon
09-28-04, 02:12 PM Hmm ok. So with all the feedback what still be good concepts/roles/personality for both wizards and socerers in Eberron? Example would be a Socerer being a negotiator (so would be a bard). Something like that.
fizzbang
09-28-04, 02:47 PM Hmm ok. So with all the feedback what still be good concepts/roles/personality for both wizards and socerers in Eberron? Example would be a Socerer being a negotiator (so would be a bard). Something like that.

I described my take on Wizards above, so I'll just handles Sorcerers, here.

To me, Sorcerers feel like people who have an innate knack for magic, possibly only just in their control. Whereas Wizards are researchers into the "science" of arcane magic, Sorcerers are wildcards with tremendous intuitive use of the arcane, but not as broad an understanding of the powers they wield. As they're often presented in the core D&D settings, they're probably viewed with distrust and shunned by a lot of societies that fear their uncontrolled powers, and that sort of social dynamic is great for pulp and noir.

In pulp terms, imagine the Sorcerer as a hero with a knack for magic that they may or may not understand. They're the gifted child who controls tremendous magical power but is afraid of what whould happen if they lose control of it. They could be the quiet fellow who doesn't talk about their past, but always seems to have a knack for saying just the right thing, or knowing just the right piece of info. Or perhaps they're the vindictive outcast, hungry to wipe out the family/city/nation that persecuted him as a freak in his youth.

Anyway, that's how I view them in the setting.
jonthegm
09-28-04, 03:41 PM I see sorcerers as more Mystic in nature, not sure where they're getting their powers, but are somehow able to "focus" some sort of energy into doing what they want... This is coincidentally how I envision most (non-psionic culture born) Psionic characters, especially Soulknives.
Zathyr
09-28-04, 03:51 PM Of course, I don't know why a wizard wouldn't want to be best of friends with an artificer, given their ability to craft all those juicy scrolls.. ;) And vice versa, I suppose. They make quite a team.

ps. holy carp! Fred??
Saurenda
09-28-04, 04:03 PM what would be nice is a Sorceror, Artificer, Warforged Fighter, Cleric of Onatar team Warforged.

Which Dm for =D. Having That Wizard and Favored Soul Warforged doesn't hurt either.

My Wizard Player does the following:
Thinks, plans, schemes and researches spells.

An artificer cannot research spells, only learn from exsisting schemas, and explore new ones made for him. He may develop a new schema, at a high level, but not at the start of play for the first ten or so levels like a wizard can.

Sorceror can use arcane devices like a Wizard without magical checks, making them rampant with scrolls and wands.

My Wizard Player also holds a good grasp on the going of the party and tries to keep them together ontop of all he does. Whats more he is a member of the Aurum Golden concord at level 5. Which btw is very well deserved given his continued dedication to the game, base of operations, collection of knowledge, and gold which he has amassed through adventuring in certain situations.

Far be it from me to tell you the answer, but it seems to me this Wizard is leaving artificers in his dust.
Saurenda
09-28-04, 04:44 PM Hmm ok. So with all the feedback what still be good concepts/roles/personality for both wizards and socerers in Eberron? Example would be a Socerer being a negotiator (so would be a bard). Something like that.

High charisma is nice, but no one said you had to be a diplomat or leader because of it. Most Sorcerors in Eberron as I see it are shy and ellusive. There are some who come forward and boast seeing wizards as thier rivals, but sorcerors want to live just like anyone else.

In Seren society Red, Blue(lit), White(ice), and Black(posion) sorcerors are espically important in thier cultures. They really leaders, so much as they true embodiedment and honor which is holding the color and power of thier dragon mentors.

In normal society sorcerors earn a great deal of prestige from what they cna do so easily. Wizards must work hard for the level of power which comes naturally to the sorceror. Sorcerors have a built in power which reacts and grows with them. Wizards rely on cunning and adapt.

So the role of a wizard is the path he chooses, like a strategist, or a founder of new knowledge. Someone who makes his life through knowledge, rather than manipulating it like an artificer.

A sorceror is a man/woman who pulls spontaneous arcane energy form themselves and tends towards less struture. Diplomacy is just so confining as I see it. The sorceror should have a place in society, but where they wish to be and when they choose to show, but not in a regular job.

All the while, arcane magic grow artificers struggle to keep up with demand for new items. Artificers roll checks for thier craftings, an arcane petitioner needs only have the alloted material and time and guaranutes success 100%. no Artificer can do that until high levels or without action points (I as a DM would pitty an artificer and just give them the item if it was just one failed check).

I hope this helps a bit.
pookha
09-28-04, 06:48 PM I believe that an artificer could also make a good rogue replacement in a group that did a lot of dungeon delving. Their skills of disable device, open lock and search fill in a lot of the trap disabling/spotting that thieves do. Their UMD skill can fill in many other slots that might not be covered as well. That said, I would still rather play a rogue at high levels because of the rogue's special abilities at 10th, 13th, 16th and 19th level.

I would play an artificer as a cool rpg/colour character, trying to fill out needed spots in the party.
technodemon
09-29-04, 02:50 PM To sidetrack for a bit, I was wandering what would make an Aereni elf leave his homeland and join a party? Even wanting to continue his cultural beliefs why would join an adventuring party?
jonthegm
09-29-04, 03:06 PM To sidetrack for a bit, I was wandering what would make an Aereni elf leave his homeland and join a party? Even wanting to continue his cultural beliefs why would join an adventuring party?
He/She is young and wants to bring glory to his ancestors. That's good enough in my book.

(Ours is a PsiWarrior, so therefore a bit of an outcast in Aerenal society, since his powers don't play by the rules of normal magic.)
Neofish
09-29-04, 03:19 PM The Frick'in loot! Naw seriously, maybe there ancestors gave them a task to preform in Khovaire (bring my sword back, find your father, etc. etc.)
Maybe they wish to become more world savvy. Remember that they must also earn there place among the Deathless, with deeds of Valor and Heroism, there almost a shoe-in.
technodemon
09-30-04, 10:51 PM Ok Im back, what would be a good non-crafting, non typical role/concept for a wizard? Anything that could very different from the noraml, weird, odd so outrageous I would play.
Zathyr
09-30-04, 10:54 PM Rent out Invisible Servants?

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
technodemon 09-25-04, 03:19 PM	Ss it me or is the artificer is so diverse that the wizard is left in the dirt for party usage? I mean what can a wizard do in a party if you have an Artificier?
Kane ir'Omik 09-25-04, 03:26 PM	er...draw attacks in mass combat situations?
SirLoin 09-25-04, 03:29 PM	Cast a spell in less than 10 rounds. Artificers are not much of an offensive combat caster class. Wizards spell will always occur, whereas an Artificer needs to make a Use Magic Device Roll.
CzarGarrett 09-25-04, 03:29 PM	It seems like the artificer does more with temporary manipulation of items, while a wizard does more manipulation with energies.
stone_dog 09-25-04, 03:30 PM	Well, there are a lot of spells that the wizard has regular access to that the artificer is dependant on magic items for. With the right selection of feats a wizard can still cast fireball (or whatever) even when stripped of all magical tools. The wizard can also make full use of a ring of wizardry while an artificer might find that such a ring would be too erratic to get much good use out of. The artificer is really nifty, true, but a full wizard can lay the arcane smackdown much more reliably than the artificer can.
technodemon 09-25-04, 03:34 PM	So what would be the true role of the wizard In Eberron? This of with the whole swajbuckler and pulp/noir feel to it.
stone_dog 09-25-04, 03:43 PM	A wizard is a studious master of the arcane arts. Just like everywhere else. Artificers won't be reliable combat casters with wands or staves until high levels, at which point the wizards will still have the versatility advantage due to spell selection, more spell slots and reliable casting. Artificers can try to pretend to be wizards to make magic items work, but they don't always function for them. Wizards are still wizards and their wands always work.
SirLoin 09-25-04, 03:46 PM	So what would be the true role of the wizard In Eberron? Always walking, never talking, casting his magic..... You know the rest.
CzarGarrett 09-26-04, 02:29 PM	Always walking, never talking, casting his magic..... You know the rest. Nice. Sabbath rules. Overall, I think if I wanted to be able to just run around and blow stuff up, the most likely would be Wizard. Taking a more cautious approach would be artificer, but thats not to say the wizard can't be more cautious.
Ectoplasmoid 09-27-04, 10:57 AM	1) Fireball/scorching ray with more damge 2) Face-Stabination :D
tylerthehobo 09-27-04, 10:57 AM	Yeah, the role of a wizard's been sidelined in my group in favor of a Gnome Artificer + Warforged Barbarian who work as a team like Master Blaster from the last Mad Max movie. The barbarian's the brawn, and the artificer beefs him up with spells before and during combat.
Doctor X 09-28-04, 01:26 AM	I'd say that the Wizard still is, overall, the best for arcane blasting. The Artificer lacks of actual combat-ready spell-slots. None of his Infusions can really be used as attacks, and most of the best ones have extremely long "casting" times. The Artificer is more of an out-of-combat jack-of-all-trades, untill he's powerful enough to craft wands and staves. But with all the money and XP that goes into those, they still don't make up for the lack of actual combat-ready spell slots. If I were a Wizard in a party with an Artificer, I'd really enjoy myself. It'd give me less to worry about. Since he or she could pretty much take care of all the item creation, I could use my feats on metamagic, spell penetration, and spell focus. In Eberron, this can be a very cool focus for a Wizard... studying the manipulation of arcane energies in their purest-- putting them straight to use instead of into items. To apply the pulp/noir feel, I'd accent his acedemic background with studies at prestigious institutions... probably Arcanix. But he would be a very arrogant learner that was eventually kicked out for whatever reason... maybe he didn't respect the forces he was toying with? An illusionist who played one too many practical jokes might be cool for that... or maybe an evoker who started shooting rays around recklessly. Maybe he would try using them to do things that would be better (and more safely) achieved by mundane means, such as lighting candles or killing flies...
Kolakuba 09-28-04, 07:48 AM	Ss it me or is the artificer is so diverse that the wizard is left in the dirt for party usage? I mean what can a wizard do in a party if you have an Artificier? errrrr...... Don't waste all the party wealth...... ;)
Teslacoil1138 09-28-04, 08:40 AM	Cast a spell in less than 10 rounds. Artificers are not much of an offensive combat caster class. Wizards spell will always occur, whereas an Artificer needs to make a Use Magic Device Roll. Wizards also need to make Concentration checks in adverse conditions. Thought admittedly, the DC is lower and easier to make.
fizzbang 09-28-04, 08:52 AM	Getting into the conversation a little late, but I'll add my input, even though stone_dog's covered the vital points quite well already. Ss it me or is the artificer is so diverse that the wizard is left in the dirt for party usage? I mean what can a wizard do in a party if you have an Artificier? I had thought that at first, too, but after playing with an artificer and no wizard or sorcerer, I can say without a doubt that there's a very solid difference. A Wizard (or Sorcerer) is pretty much always able to unleash arcane nastiness, and can develop the highest level spells. They may wear out over the course of a day, but as long as they can rest and re-memorize, they'll always have access to a variety of the most powerful spells. An Artificer needs time, money, skill and xp to prepare the scrolls, wands and other items that he'll rely on to have an effective magical offense. Without these, he has to fall back on his very slow infusions (almost entirely useful only for buffing others) and his medium base attack and heavy armor proficiency. It's really a mistake to think that Artificers specifically replace Wizards/Sorcerers. They can fill in for them in a pinch (or for Clerics, as far as healing), but it becomes a very expensive drain on party funds and time as they're constantly having to craft scrolls, potions and wands. And even then, unless they're solely focused on Use Magic Device, they're always taking a minor risk that they'll fail to use them when it comes down to it. When it comes down to it, Artificers are most like Bards: they're good jack-of-all trades, but their real benefit for a party is that they make everyone else much more powerful. They can supply magic items, give last-minute boosts (never underestimate the benefit of suddenly making an ally's weapon into a Bane weapon), round out skills (even checking for traps like a rogue), and carrying around scrolls for those sometimes-just-what-you-need spells like knock or cure disease. (As a side note, I've also seen interesting ideas about making an Artificer as a combat-character, in the same way that one can make a Cleric as a combat-character. They're both proficient in all armor, don't worry about spell failure, and have powerful support spells available to them, so it's not impossible. Make it a Warforged Artificer, and you can heal yourself, too...) So what would be the true role of the wizard In Eberron? This of with the whole swajbuckler and pulp/noir feel to it. I can't recall a page number, but it's described well in the book (or maybe in one of Keith's comments on the board?): in Eberron, Wizards are the scientists, Artificers are the engineers, and Magewrights are the craftsmen. Wizards are still the end-all be-all of arcane might, learning the most powerful arcane magics and developing new applications for arcane techniques. They're the ones that make new spells and find the information behind magical phenomenon like the Mournlands disaster. Admittedly, Artificers do end up far overshadowing Wizards for item-creation, but it just means that Wizards are free to focus their xp towards the biggest spells and the occasional scroll. Artificers, on the other hand, focus almost entirely on items: they're the undisputed masters of taking the magic that exists and infusing it into powerful new devices. The magical marvels sold at shops or traveling around the continent are their domain, but it's very rare that they can make actual new infusions. They may be able to use a codex to create a better magical item, but their own on-the-fly infusions are rarely improved, and never reach the same level of power as their arcane cousins. But they work well alongside a Wizard or other primary spellcaster. As for an example of the Wizard in pulp Eberron? They're the brilliant researcher, testing their arcane studies in the field. They're the working student who needs to collect some rare samples for their studies. They're the corrupt professor, looking to use their knowledge of the arcane powers in the ancient tomb to unleash a monster for revenge. Imagine the brilliant wizard who's been studying the arcane ritual used by the giants of Xen'drick. From this questionable research, she's developed a new spell with the power to twist the fabric of reality itself. Suddenly, she realizes that she's opened a very dangerous line of research, and that if this arcane technique falls into the hands of the wrong person, it could mean the fall of Khorvaire. Needless to say, the word of her discovery gets out, and suddenly her discovery has earned the attention of servants of Vol, the Lords of Dust, the Chamber, and anyone else with a substantial amount of arcane power and interest in the fate of the world...
ENHenry 09-28-04, 09:35 AM	In Robert Apirin's "Myth" fantasy comedy series, there were two types of mages - the actual mages, and the people known as "mechanics", which was a derogatory term for those who didn't have the skill to work actual magic, but who relied on magic items to do their jobs with. I could see Eberron Wizards and Sorcerers having a similar derogatory opinion toward Artificers - as gimmicky gadgeteers who couldn't cast a light spell without help, and who feed off of their hard work.
fizzbang 09-28-04, 09:42 AM	In Robert Apirin's "Myth" fantasy comedy series, there were two types of mages - the actual mages, and the people known as "mechanics", which was a derogatory term for those who didn't have the skill to work actual magic, but who relied on magic items to do their jobs with. I could see Eberron Wizards and Sorcerers having a similar derogatory opinion toward Artificers - as gimmicky gadgeteers who couldn't cast a light spell without help, and who feed off of their hard work. I haven't read the series, but it could definitely work in Eberron. Similarly, Artificers could regard Wizards as intellectual geeks who have no knowledge of how to really get the most use out of their magic, and who'd still be fiddling with pointless details if they weren't around to point out how their magic can be put to use. Talking with a friend in the computer science field, they made an excellent comparison: Wizards are reaseach and theoretical scientists, while Artificers are applied scientists and engineers. (Meanwhile, I suppose Sorcerers are talented prodigies.)
technodemon 09-28-04, 02:12 PM	Hmm ok. So with all the feedback what still be good concepts/roles/personality for both wizards and socerers in Eberron? Example would be a Socerer being a negotiator (so would be a bard). Something like that.
fizzbang 09-28-04, 02:47 PM	Hmm ok. So with all the feedback what still be good concepts/roles/personality for both wizards and socerers in Eberron? Example would be a Socerer being a negotiator (so would be a bard). Something like that. I described my take on Wizards above, so I'll just handles Sorcerers, here. To me, Sorcerers feel like people who have an innate knack for magic, possibly only just in their control. Whereas Wizards are researchers into the "science" of arcane magic, Sorcerers are wildcards with tremendous intuitive use of the arcane, but not as broad an understanding of the powers they wield. As they're often presented in the core D&D settings, they're probably viewed with distrust and shunned by a lot of societies that fear their uncontrolled powers, and that sort of social dynamic is great for pulp and noir. In pulp terms, imagine the Sorcerer as a hero with a knack for magic that they may or may not understand. They're the gifted child who controls tremendous magical power but is afraid of what whould happen if they lose control of it. They could be the quiet fellow who doesn't talk about their past, but always seems to have a knack for saying just the right thing, or knowing just the right piece of info. Or perhaps they're the vindictive outcast, hungry to wipe out the family/city/nation that persecuted him as a freak in his youth. Anyway, that's how I view them in the setting.
jonthegm 09-28-04, 03:41 PM	I see sorcerers as more Mystic in nature, not sure where they're getting their powers, but are somehow able to "focus" some sort of energy into doing what they want... This is coincidentally how I envision most (non-psionic culture born) Psionic characters, especially Soulknives.
Zathyr 09-28-04, 03:51 PM	Of course, I don't know why a wizard wouldn't want to be best of friends with an artificer, given their ability to craft all those juicy scrolls.. ;) And vice versa, I suppose. They make quite a team. ps. holy carp! Fred??
Saurenda 09-28-04, 04:03 PM	what would be nice is a Sorceror, Artificer, Warforged Fighter, Cleric of Onatar team Warforged. Which Dm for =D. Having That Wizard and Favored Soul Warforged doesn't hurt either. My Wizard Player does the following: Thinks, plans, schemes and researches spells. An artificer cannot research spells, only learn from exsisting schemas, and explore new ones made for him. He may develop a new schema, at a high level, but not at the start of play for the first ten or so levels like a wizard can. Sorceror can use arcane devices like a Wizard without magical checks, making them rampant with scrolls and wands. My Wizard Player also holds a good grasp on the going of the party and tries to keep them together ontop of all he does. Whats more he is a member of the Aurum Golden concord at level 5. Which btw is very well deserved given his continued dedication to the game, base of operations, collection of knowledge, and gold which he has amassed through adventuring in certain situations. Far be it from me to tell you the answer, but it seems to me this Wizard is leaving artificers in his dust.
Saurenda 09-28-04, 04:44 PM	Hmm ok. So with all the feedback what still be good concepts/roles/personality for both wizards and socerers in Eberron? Example would be a Socerer being a negotiator (so would be a bard). Something like that. High charisma is nice, but no one said you had to be a diplomat or leader because of it. Most Sorcerors in Eberron as I see it are shy and ellusive. There are some who come forward and boast seeing wizards as thier rivals, but sorcerors want to live just like anyone else. In Seren society Red, Blue(lit), White(ice), and Black(posion) sorcerors are espically important in thier cultures. They really leaders, so much as they true embodiedment and honor which is holding the color and power of thier dragon mentors. In normal society sorcerors earn a great deal of prestige from what they cna do so easily. Wizards must work hard for the level of power which comes naturally to the sorceror. Sorcerors have a built in power which reacts and grows with them. Wizards rely on cunning and adapt. So the role of a wizard is the path he chooses, like a strategist, or a founder of new knowledge. Someone who makes his life through knowledge, rather than manipulating it like an artificer. A sorceror is a man/woman who pulls spontaneous arcane energy form themselves and tends towards less struture. Diplomacy is just so confining as I see it. The sorceror should have a place in society, but where they wish to be and when they choose to show, but not in a regular job. All the while, arcane magic grow artificers struggle to keep up with demand for new items. Artificers roll checks for thier craftings, an arcane petitioner needs only have the alloted material and time and guaranutes success 100%. no Artificer can do that until high levels or without action points (I as a DM would pitty an artificer and just give them the item if it was just one failed check). I hope this helps a bit.
pookha 09-28-04, 06:48 PM	I believe that an artificer could also make a good rogue replacement in a group that did a lot of dungeon delving. Their skills of disable device, open lock and search fill in a lot of the trap disabling/spotting that thieves do. Their UMD skill can fill in many other slots that might not be covered as well. That said, I would still rather play a rogue at high levels because of the rogue's special abilities at 10th, 13th, 16th and 19th level. I would play an artificer as a cool rpg/colour character, trying to fill out needed spots in the party.
technodemon 09-29-04, 02:50 PM	To sidetrack for a bit, I was wandering what would make an Aereni elf leave his homeland and join a party? Even wanting to continue his cultural beliefs why would join an adventuring party?
jonthegm 09-29-04, 03:06 PM	To sidetrack for a bit, I was wandering what would make an Aereni elf leave his homeland and join a party? Even wanting to continue his cultural beliefs why would join an adventuring party? He/She is young and wants to bring glory to his ancestors. That's good enough in my book. (Ours is a PsiWarrior, so therefore a bit of an outcast in Aerenal society, since his powers don't play by the rules of normal magic.)
Neofish 09-29-04, 03:19 PM	The Frick'in loot! Naw seriously, maybe there ancestors gave them a task to preform in Khovaire (bring my sword back, find your father, etc. etc.) Maybe they wish to become more world savvy. Remember that they must also earn there place among the Deathless, with deeds of Valor and Heroism, there almost a shoe-in.
technodemon 09-30-04, 10:51 PM	Ok Im back, what would be a good non-crafting, non typical role/concept for a wizard? Anything that could very different from the noraml, weird, odd so outrageous I would play.
Zathyr 09-30-04, 10:54 PM	Rent out Invisible Servants?