Pcs and animating undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Pcs and animating undead [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
ppirie1
04-30-07, 11:51 PM I wanted to hear how other dms would handle this situation. I have only been a dm for a couple months now and I am running WOTVB. Anyway, I foolishly allowed the players to play an evil party and now they are running around animating undead, specifically the npcs that they kill that I throw at them. For example, the magebred horses that Viorr Maelic gave them they killed them and turned them into undead mounts. The centaurs they encountered, same thing. I think at one time they had like 4 undead minions with them.

Now this is fine, they are doing everything within the rules, and I said foolishly because being a new dm is hard enough, but being a new dm and running a mod with an evil party is doubly troublesome.

Obviously I have to neutralize this problem, and I was curious to see what others would do.

PFP
Hideous Phidias
05-01-07, 01:47 AM One thing to do, undead killing machine. Two wats to go about it. First Valenar Elven raiding party. This was my favorite wat of thinning out the party when one of my players started getting to many tag alongs. The second is a prty of clerics and paladins of the silver flame come to put down evil villians and their undead horde.

If you give the party make up we would have an easier time of helping you curb this.

Another thought is if you have them in Karrnath where most peoplethink having undead is ok you could enlighten then to the law. The law being yes necromancy is ok but only wuth the ok of the crown. Have the minister come down on them for unlicenced undead. They have teams for putting down rogue undead and takking in necromanciers who make them. a trial is always fun roleplay.
Neutronium_Dragon
05-01-07, 02:40 AM If they're only keeping a few undead at any given time then this probably isn't a substantial problem; the fact that spellcasters can do this is already factored into their balance, even if PCs don't often choose to do it.

Likewise, if they're only keeping a few around then it probably isn't worthwhile for any other organization to target them specifically. Silver Flame templars generally have more significant problems to worry about than a few skeletons, and so on.

By the same token, undead aren't considered to have any rights, so there may not be much in the way of legal problems except to the extent that keeping any monstrous minion of any sort would present.

On the other hand, it may not be all that *socially* acceptable to have zombies shuffling around with you, and NPCs that they meet might be a little less willing to deal with them. Likewise, their reputation probably won't be all that great even when they accomplish famous things.
ppirie1
05-01-07, 02:58 PM Oh lets see, we have a cl5 ftr/rogue/clr, we have a ranged fighter 5th, another cleric of 5th level, and we have a 4th level illusionist.

Good ideas hideous, good ideas. So far I have managed to take out a couple of their undead with a fireball from Grilsha and then an ogre barbarian.

I did let the party know that walking around with undead isnt going to be socially acceptable ND. They have almost arrived in Trolanport where I will have a small army of gnomes waiting for them should they try to bring their undead into the gnome city. So far they have only made known their undead minions while on the road, never in a big city.
Vharuck
05-01-07, 07:05 PM Undead cost a lot of money to make, and the basic undead really suck. Besides, something in their fights that's a few levels lower than them with far fewer hp is mostly a liability. You stand next to it, you might get Cleaved.
Splendide
05-02-07, 02:09 AM When they approach Trolanport, assuming the undead lead the way, have them oddly wander off the track unless the PC controller tells them precisely which way to go.

Whoops, Hallucinatory Terrain, they now walk off a cliff. PCs should've followed the mindless undead in the first place! Haw haw.

Failing that, mantraps concealed by illusions also work.
JulesCARV
05-02-07, 03:45 AM What if they just ran into a greedy adventuring party that said "hey! People using undead mounts! That sounds like a half-plausible reason for us to rob them and kill them if they resist without being evil!"
ppirie1
05-02-07, 07:45 AM Undead cost a lot of money to make, and the basic undead really suck. Besides, something in their fights that's a few levels lower than them with far fewer hp is mostly a liability. You stand next to it, you might get Cleaved.

I beg to differ. For example, using the animate undead spell you could animate an undead creature with 10 hd for a 250 gp gem. not allot of gold imo.
RogueElement
05-02-07, 07:59 AM I would create more adventures in civilization like in town or on trains, airships, etc. The PCs can't bring their undead into civilized areas (except maybe Karnath) without bringing the entire town defense system down on them. If the PCs stash their undead somewhere in the wilderness while the PCs are adventuring in town, then have a well-meaning patrol find the undead and call in the heavy artillery. When the PCs return, they find their undead smoldering in a puddle of holy water.
WolfHati
05-02-07, 02:22 PM Don't punish your players for having fun with undead. If your players want to play a certain type of game, in this case one where they get undead minions, let 'em; just don't let it get too over the top. Destroying player's stuff just because you can is the height of jerk-DMing, but make sure people react reasonably to their actions, an undead army may make a hotheaded commander think Karrnath is attacking and give the PCs a whole lot to explain. Trashing their undead when they stash them in a safe place just because you don't like the undead, however, is not cool.
Vharuck
05-02-07, 04:46 PM Don't punish your players for having fun with undead. If your players want to play a certain type of game, in this case one where they get undead minions, let 'em; just don't let it get too over the top. Destroying player's stuff just because you can is the height of jerk-DMing, but make sure people react reasonably to their actions, an undead army may make a hotheaded commander think Karrnath is attacking and give the PCs a whole lot to explain. Trashing their undead when they stash them in a safe place just because you don't like the undead, however, is not cool.

QFT

I'd let it go for a while, and then if it causes undue problems with making encounters much simpler than they should be, I would talk it out with your players. Maybe sit down with them and brainstorm some house rules to balance the game. Really, if they win the first combat with an uber skelly, they'll be happy. But after the first couple combats, it will get old fast. They may then want to rebalance the spell also.
ppirie1
05-02-07, 06:20 PM Yes, I agree with both of your statements. It hasnt gotten over the top yet.
JulesCARV
05-02-07, 06:45 PM I'm not saying that the DM should arbitrarily punish them. It does seem to me, though, that in a D&D-style world, one of the consequences of being flamboyantly evil is that adventurers who like taking other people's possessions but don't like being considered "evil" or facing prosecution by authorities (or at least want a good defense if they do face prosecution) will tend to attack you and try to take your possessions. Of course, such adventurers might not be as strong as the PCs' party. I'm not saying "okay ppirie1, here's how you kill the PCs." I'm just saying that flamboyant evil tends to turn you into an acceptable target for adventurers in lawless areas where "random encounters" of the hostile kind are likely. (ironically, this is the exact opposite of the view presented by others here that they're fine in the wilderness, but face problems if they enter a city.)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
ppirie1 04-30-07, 11:51 PM	I wanted to hear how other dms would handle this situation. I have only been a dm for a couple months now and I am running WOTVB. Anyway, I foolishly allowed the players to play an evil party and now they are running around animating undead, specifically the npcs that they kill that I throw at them. For example, the magebred horses that Viorr Maelic gave them they killed them and turned them into undead mounts. The centaurs they encountered, same thing. I think at one time they had like 4 undead minions with them. Now this is fine, they are doing everything within the rules, and I said foolishly because being a new dm is hard enough, but being a new dm and running a mod with an evil party is doubly troublesome. Obviously I have to neutralize this problem, and I was curious to see what others would do. PFP
Hideous Phidias 05-01-07, 01:47 AM	One thing to do, undead killing machine. Two wats to go about it. First Valenar Elven raiding party. This was my favorite wat of thinning out the party when one of my players started getting to many tag alongs. The second is a prty of clerics and paladins of the silver flame come to put down evil villians and their undead horde. If you give the party make up we would have an easier time of helping you curb this. Another thought is if you have them in Karrnath where most peoplethink having undead is ok you could enlighten then to the law. The law being yes necromancy is ok but only wuth the ok of the crown. Have the minister come down on them for unlicenced undead. They have teams for putting down rogue undead and takking in necromanciers who make them. a trial is always fun roleplay.
Neutronium_Dragon 05-01-07, 02:40 AM	If they're only keeping a few undead at any given time then this probably isn't a substantial problem; the fact that spellcasters can do this is already factored into their balance, even if PCs don't often choose to do it. Likewise, if they're only keeping a few around then it probably isn't worthwhile for any other organization to target them specifically. Silver Flame templars generally have more significant problems to worry about than a few skeletons, and so on. By the same token, undead aren't considered to have any rights, so there may not be much in the way of legal problems except to the extent that keeping any monstrous minion of any sort would present. On the other hand, it may not be all that socially acceptable to have zombies shuffling around with you, and NPCs that they meet might be a little less willing to deal with them. Likewise, their reputation probably won't be all that great even when they accomplish famous things.
ppirie1 05-01-07, 02:58 PM	Oh lets see, we have a cl5 ftr/rogue/clr, we have a ranged fighter 5th, another cleric of 5th level, and we have a 4th level illusionist. Good ideas hideous, good ideas. So far I have managed to take out a couple of their undead with a fireball from Grilsha and then an ogre barbarian. I did let the party know that walking around with undead isnt going to be socially acceptable ND. They have almost arrived in Trolanport where I will have a small army of gnomes waiting for them should they try to bring their undead into the gnome city. So far they have only made known their undead minions while on the road, never in a big city.
Vharuck 05-01-07, 07:05 PM	Undead cost a lot of money to make, and the basic undead really suck. Besides, something in their fights that's a few levels lower than them with far fewer hp is mostly a liability. You stand next to it, you might get Cleaved.
Splendide 05-02-07, 02:09 AM	When they approach Trolanport, assuming the undead lead the way, have them oddly wander off the track unless the PC controller tells them precisely which way to go. Whoops, Hallucinatory Terrain, they now walk off a cliff. PCs should've followed the mindless undead in the first place! Haw haw. Failing that, mantraps concealed by illusions also work.
JulesCARV 05-02-07, 03:45 AM	What if they just ran into a greedy adventuring party that said "hey! People using undead mounts! That sounds like a half-plausible reason for us to rob them and kill them if they resist without being evil!"
ppirie1 05-02-07, 07:45 AM	Undead cost a lot of money to make, and the basic undead really suck. Besides, something in their fights that's a few levels lower than them with far fewer hp is mostly a liability. You stand next to it, you might get Cleaved. I beg to differ. For example, using the animate undead spell you could animate an undead creature with 10 hd for a 250 gp gem. not allot of gold imo.
RogueElement 05-02-07, 07:59 AM	I would create more adventures in civilization like in town or on trains, airships, etc. The PCs can't bring their undead into civilized areas (except maybe Karnath) without bringing the entire town defense system down on them. If the PCs stash their undead somewhere in the wilderness while the PCs are adventuring in town, then have a well-meaning patrol find the undead and call in the heavy artillery. When the PCs return, they find their undead smoldering in a puddle of holy water.
WolfHati 05-02-07, 02:22 PM	Don't punish your players for having fun with undead. If your players want to play a certain type of game, in this case one where they get undead minions, let 'em; just don't let it get too over the top. Destroying player's stuff just because you can is the height of jerk-DMing, but make sure people react reasonably to their actions, an undead army may make a hotheaded commander think Karrnath is attacking and give the PCs a whole lot to explain. Trashing their undead when they stash them in a safe place just because you don't like the undead, however, is not cool.
Vharuck 05-02-07, 04:46 PM	Don't punish your players for having fun with undead. If your players want to play a certain type of game, in this case one where they get undead minions, let 'em; just don't let it get too over the top. Destroying player's stuff just because you can is the height of jerk-DMing, but make sure people react reasonably to their actions, an undead army may make a hotheaded commander think Karrnath is attacking and give the PCs a whole lot to explain. Trashing their undead when they stash them in a safe place just because you don't like the undead, however, is not cool. QFT I'd let it go for a while, and then if it causes undue problems with making encounters much simpler than they should be, I would talk it out with your players. Maybe sit down with them and brainstorm some house rules to balance the game. Really, if they win the first combat with an uber skelly, they'll be happy. But after the first couple combats, it will get old fast. They may then want to rebalance the spell also.
ppirie1 05-02-07, 06:20 PM	Yes, I agree with both of your statements. It hasnt gotten over the top yet.
JulesCARV 05-02-07, 06:45 PM	I'm not saying that the DM should arbitrarily punish them. It does seem to me, though, that in a D&D-style world, one of the consequences of being flamboyantly evil is that adventurers who like taking other people's possessions but don't like being considered "evil" or facing prosecution by authorities (or at least want a good defense if they do face prosecution) will tend to attack you and try to take your possessions. Of course, such adventurers might not be as strong as the PCs' party. I'm not saying "okay ppirie1, here's how you kill the PCs." I'm just saying that flamboyant evil tends to turn you into an acceptable target for adventurers in lawless areas where "random encounters" of the hostile kind are likely. (ironically, this is the exact opposite of the view presented by others here that they're fine in the wilderness, but face problems if they enter a city.)