petition to change the name Stillborn [Archive] - Wizards Community

petition to change the name Stillborn [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Kravell
07-02-04, 01:07 PM I don't like the name Stillborn for three reasons.

1. It describes a dead baby. That is just despressing. And something Wizards has shied away from in the past, describing the death of children.

2. It is an insensitive word to use. Anyone who has lost a baby could find the word offensive. I haven't lost one and I find the word used out of context and in D&D disturbing.

3. It breaks the suspension of disbelief. D&D has never been about dead kids and the word is too loaded with emotions. And it isn't a necessary part of the book that couldn't possibly be left out without losing context (the name could easily be different without altering anything else).

If a book on Aerenal comes out I hope they change the name to something less emotionally charged, like the Unliving. My wife's grandmother lost a baby sixty years ago and she still talks about him today.
Caul
07-02-04, 01:48 PM Personally, though I do find the name disturbing, I think that is the point. You are supposed to be shocked by the presence of the Stillborn. The Unliving, as you suggest, just doesn't have the power. I vote for the name to remain unchanged.
Megatron
07-02-04, 02:07 PM The name is fine.
the_fools_wildhunt
07-02-04, 02:09 PM Oh Give Me A Break!!!

This is ridiculous, if you don't like it, change it. Don't get on a soapbox and cry about it. It is a word, nothing more, nothing less.

A word used in a certain context can be offensive, but then its still just words. This is not used in an abusive way and it is used for flavouring and that is fine.

There are thousands of words used everyday that fine to some and possibly offensive to someone else. We cannot ban every one of them, we live with it.

I feel for those who have suffered from the subject word,but we cannot live our lives tip toeing around every little thing because it may be insulting to someone somewhere.

I vote no change and lock this thread before it gets too flamey.
Indigo
07-02-04, 02:14 PM "Unliving" also has a completely different meaning. As I read it, "Stillborn" is a morbid joke on the part of the elves. They *want* to be dead, but they are still alive... still "born". And, like Caul, I think that the whole point is that it's supposed to be disturbing -- that these are really creepy, disturbed people, and you're supposed to go "yuck!" when you deal with them.

But I'm certainly curious to hear what others think, and since they might do a book on Aerenal some day, it's a good point to raise; if it really disturbs people, it's a valid concern.
Takasi
07-02-04, 02:15 PM I like the name, but here are some suggestions for those wishing to rename it:

-The "Youth"-enized
-Suicidal Juveniles
-Decaying Deliquents
-Necropunks
-Cadaver Kids

Or to avoid contraversy altogether just add some badly gammar'd latin:

Liber Mortis

Or some pig latin

Upidstay Eadunday Idkays

;)
Ormus
07-02-04, 02:33 PM I like the name as it is. I don't mean to be insensitive to someone who might be offended, but like someone else said, you can change it for your games easily enough if it poses that big a problem. I mean really, zombie describes a perversion of a dead person, is that offensive to you? There is plenty more in the BoVD that is far more offensive than the word Stillborn is in the ESCB. It also is not making reference to actual stillborn children by any means. I think the word fits perfect, even if a little disturbing, like someone else said...that is part of the point I think.
Again, not trying to flame you Kravell or be insensitive to anyone, I just disagree.
zootcat
07-02-04, 02:34 PM I petition that the terms "undead" and "undying" be changed because those terms might offend anyone that ever lost a loved one.

I also petition that all combat and killing and any weapons be removed from the game because that might offend any who's ever lost a loved one, as well.

I also petition that rogues and swashbucklers be removed from the game, because, stereotypically, they have glib tongues and their insults might offend anyone who's ever been offended.

I also petition that all cockatrices be removed from the game because they might offend anyone whoever had a loved one killed in a poultry stampede.

I petition that the game of Dungeons & Dragons be banned because it might offend anyone that ever had a loved killed while playing D&D in steam tunnels beneath a college campus.
Saurenda
07-02-04, 03:26 PM I petition that while we are on the subject we also change the name of etheral scarabs, since I myself am not partial to bugs as are most people who complain.

At any rate change it for your own campaign. Don't intere in our lives just because your family has had that unfortuante event.

I know it sounds heartless but we are playing a game and your peition is a worthless idea which has no meret.

Yeah. Back to reading EBC.
Kakabel
07-02-04, 04:11 PM I can see how the topic creator is offended, anywould who lost a child would be. I'd prefer not seeing it, but it's nothing to stat a petition over, just change it in your game.

As far as the abvove mention of nothing about dead kids in D&D, have you seen the ELH's Atropal? Care to know what an Atropal is in both D&D and RL?
Steven Snyder
07-02-04, 04:20 PM I am absolutely and completely sick and tired of everyone out there that demands that the world change because it 'offends' them in some manner.

Have we grown so weak and feeble that words are something to be feared and must be made soft and sterile?

...I am going to end this rant because I am all out of duct-tape...
Ormus
07-02-04, 04:27 PM Originally posted by Kakabel
As far as the abvove mention of nothing about dead kids in D&D, have you seen the ELH's Atropal? Care to know what an Atropal is in both D&D and RL?

If you are referring to my above post, I didn't say that D&D says nothing about dead kids, I said that the Stillborn reference in the Eberron setting doesn't reference itself to dead children(the Stillborn of Eberron are still alive, afterall).
But yeah, I know what the Atropal is, although that and your comment had no pertinence to my above post whatsoever.
Selūnite
07-02-04, 04:59 PM Personally, the name doesn't offend me, although I must admit that I have not been through that experience yet (I did watch my 12 hour old nephew die almost 14 years ago, however). Even in light of that, I don't think the name warrants a change.

However, I do agree with others that it's probably a good idea to change their name in your campaign if it doesn't suit you. Ultimately, I respect your opinion even though I personally didn't agree with it and I was interested to read your reasoning behind it.

In the end, I don't think it is appropriate that some people name-call, insult, and mock others who have different opinions than their own. Less flame wars would start if everyone would remember to politely disagree rather than make fun of another person.
grey muse
07-02-04, 07:26 PM While it's OT, I've never heard the term atropal outside of D&D.

grey muse
smrtgmp
07-02-04, 08:07 PM Life is offensive. Deal with it. The need to streralize everything is a result of our ridiculously PC society run amok. Given the nature of the first amendment, censorship is never a good idea.
jedi8187
07-02-04, 09:17 PM I understand your concerns, but I don't agree. Personally I want to comend the designers for having the guts to try using that word. I've never been a fan for over indulgent PC crap that people love to spurt about.
Brianish
07-02-04, 09:25 PM Originally posted by Takasi
I like the name, but here are some suggestions for those wishing to rename it:

-The "Youth"-enized
-Suicidal Juveniles
-Decaying Deliquents
-Necropunks
-Cadaver Kids

I think you're my new favorite person in the whole world.
Takasi
07-02-04, 09:36 PM I think you're my new favorite person in the whole world.

Thank you! I'd probably be on more than a few "least favorite person in the world" lists if I had dropped the contraversial "A" word. I thought of a pretty good one too...
Ph0eNiX
07-02-04, 10:43 PM I'm sorry the word offends you, but you don't really need to get all political activist on us. Just leave the printing as is, and change it for your own campaign.
Ultimately, it's just a word. Words only have as much power as you let them have. I could take up plenty of space with the words that people have used against or in reference to me that they intended would hurt, anger, offend or otherwise have a negative effect on me. But they don't. I give them no power.
Think back to the days of Lenny Bruce, who used words and phrases that got him arrested many times. He didn't care. He didn't fear them, and continued to use them in his routines. Many of the offensive terms used would not really draw that much ire today. Why? Because we have become desensitized to them. Oh sure, some of the obscenities are still considered obscene, but does it really matter? Do they really hurt anyone?
Instead of hiding from the term, just blow it off. Is the event itself tragic? Yes. Will the world end if someone says :censored: ? No. Does life go on? Yes. Will I ever shut up? Yes, time to get off the soapbox myself.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled chaos...
WizO_Sith
07-02-04, 11:07 PM Ok, a couple of things here...
This is not the appropriate avenue for expressing discontent and/or trying to affect change in a WotC Product. The proper way to go about expressing your opinion is by following =>This Link<= (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=company/feedbackform). Allow me to re-iterate - Posting Complaints On The WotC Forums Accomplishes Nothing, the feedback form at the above link is the only way these things go forward.
Flaming/Baiting is a vioalation of the WotC Online Code of Conduct (www.wizards.com/coc) and will not be tolerated on these forums.

This thread will be locked and no further conversations of this nature will be allowed.

*Click*

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Kravell 07-02-04, 01:07 PM	I don't like the name Stillborn for three reasons. 1. It describes a dead baby. That is just despressing. And something Wizards has shied away from in the past, describing the death of children. 2. It is an insensitive word to use. Anyone who has lost a baby could find the word offensive. I haven't lost one and I find the word used out of context and in D&D disturbing. 3. It breaks the suspension of disbelief. D&D has never been about dead kids and the word is too loaded with emotions. And it isn't a necessary part of the book that couldn't possibly be left out without losing context (the name could easily be different without altering anything else). If a book on Aerenal comes out I hope they change the name to something less emotionally charged, like the Unliving. My wife's grandmother lost a baby sixty years ago and she still talks about him today.
Caul 07-02-04, 01:48 PM	Personally, though I do find the name disturbing, I think that is the point. You are supposed to be shocked by the presence of the Stillborn. The Unliving, as you suggest, just doesn't have the power. I vote for the name to remain unchanged.
Megatron 07-02-04, 02:07 PM	The name is fine.
the_fools_wildhunt 07-02-04, 02:09 PM	Oh Give Me A Break!!! This is ridiculous, if you don't like it, change it. Don't get on a soapbox and cry about it. It is a word, nothing more, nothing less. A word used in a certain context can be offensive, but then its still just words. This is not used in an abusive way and it is used for flavouring and that is fine. There are thousands of words used everyday that fine to some and possibly offensive to someone else. We cannot ban every one of them, we live with it. I feel for those who have suffered from the subject word,but we cannot live our lives tip toeing around every little thing because it may be insulting to someone somewhere. I vote no change and lock this thread before it gets too flamey.
Indigo 07-02-04, 02:14 PM	"Unliving" also has a completely different meaning. As I read it, "Stillborn" is a morbid joke on the part of the elves. They want to be dead, but they are still alive... still "born". And, like Caul, I think that the whole point is that it's supposed to be disturbing -- that these are really creepy, disturbed people, and you're supposed to go "yuck!" when you deal with them. But I'm certainly curious to hear what others think, and since they might do a book on Aerenal some day, it's a good point to raise; if it really disturbs people, it's a valid concern.
Takasi 07-02-04, 02:15 PM	I like the name, but here are some suggestions for those wishing to rename it: -The "Youth"-enized -Suicidal Juveniles -Decaying Deliquents -Necropunks -Cadaver Kids Or to avoid contraversy altogether just add some badly gammar'd latin: Liber Mortis Or some pig latin Upidstay Eadunday Idkays ;)
Ormus 07-02-04, 02:33 PM	I like the name as it is. I don't mean to be insensitive to someone who might be offended, but like someone else said, you can change it for your games easily enough if it poses that big a problem. I mean really, zombie describes a perversion of a dead person, is that offensive to you? There is plenty more in the BoVD that is far more offensive than the word Stillborn is in the ESCB. It also is not making reference to actual stillborn children by any means. I think the word fits perfect, even if a little disturbing, like someone else said...that is part of the point I think. Again, not trying to flame you Kravell or be insensitive to anyone, I just disagree.
zootcat 07-02-04, 02:34 PM	I petition that the terms "undead" and "undying" be changed because those terms might offend anyone that ever lost a loved one. I also petition that all combat and killing and any weapons be removed from the game because that might offend any who's ever lost a loved one, as well. I also petition that rogues and swashbucklers be removed from the game, because, stereotypically, they have glib tongues and their insults might offend anyone who's ever been offended. I also petition that all cockatrices be removed from the game because they might offend anyone whoever had a loved one killed in a poultry stampede. I petition that the game of Dungeons & Dragons be banned because it might offend anyone that ever had a loved killed while playing D&D in steam tunnels beneath a college campus.
Saurenda 07-02-04, 03:26 PM	I petition that while we are on the subject we also change the name of etheral scarabs, since I myself am not partial to bugs as are most people who complain. At any rate change it for your own campaign. Don't intere in our lives just because your family has had that unfortuante event. I know it sounds heartless but we are playing a game and your peition is a worthless idea which has no meret. Yeah. Back to reading EBC.
Kakabel 07-02-04, 04:11 PM	I can see how the topic creator is offended, anywould who lost a child would be. I'd prefer not seeing it, but it's nothing to stat a petition over, just change it in your game. As far as the abvove mention of nothing about dead kids in D&D, have you seen the ELH's Atropal? Care to know what an Atropal is in both D&D and RL?
Steven Snyder 07-02-04, 04:20 PM	I am absolutely and completely sick and tired of everyone out there that demands that the world change because it 'offends' them in some manner. Have we grown so weak and feeble that words are something to be feared and must be made soft and sterile? ...I am going to end this rant because I am all out of duct-tape...
Ormus 07-02-04, 04:27 PM	Originally posted by Kakabel As far as the abvove mention of nothing about dead kids in D&D, have you seen the ELH's Atropal? Care to know what an Atropal is in both D&D and RL? If you are referring to my above post, I didn't say that D&D says nothing about dead kids, I said that the Stillborn reference in the Eberron setting doesn't reference itself to dead children(the Stillborn of Eberron are still alive, afterall). But yeah, I know what the Atropal is, although that and your comment had no pertinence to my above post whatsoever.
Selūnite 07-02-04, 04:59 PM	Personally, the name doesn't offend me, although I must admit that I have not been through that experience yet (I did watch my 12 hour old nephew die almost 14 years ago, however). Even in light of that, I don't think the name warrants a change. However, I do agree with others that it's probably a good idea to change their name in your campaign if it doesn't suit you. Ultimately, I respect your opinion even though I personally didn't agree with it and I was interested to read your reasoning behind it. In the end, I don't think it is appropriate that some people name-call, insult, and mock others who have different opinions than their own. Less flame wars would start if everyone would remember to politely disagree rather than make fun of another person.
grey muse 07-02-04, 07:26 PM	While it's OT, I've never heard the term atropal outside of D&D. grey muse
smrtgmp 07-02-04, 08:07 PM	Life is offensive. Deal with it. The need to streralize everything is a result of our ridiculously PC society run amok. Given the nature of the first amendment, censorship is never a good idea.
jedi8187 07-02-04, 09:17 PM	I understand your concerns, but I don't agree. Personally I want to comend the designers for having the guts to try using that word. I've never been a fan for over indulgent PC crap that people love to spurt about.
Brianish 07-02-04, 09:25 PM	Originally posted by Takasi I like the name, but here are some suggestions for those wishing to rename it: -The "Youth"-enized -Suicidal Juveniles -Decaying Deliquents -Necropunks -Cadaver Kids I think you're my new favorite person in the whole world.
Takasi 07-02-04, 09:36 PM	I think you're my new favorite person in the whole world. Thank you! I'd probably be on more than a few "least favorite person in the world" lists if I had dropped the contraversial "A" word. I thought of a pretty good one too...
Ph0eNiX 07-02-04, 10:43 PM	I'm sorry the word offends you, but you don't really need to get all political activist on us. Just leave the printing as is, and change it for your own campaign. Ultimately, it's just a word. Words only have as much power as you let them have. I could take up plenty of space with the words that people have used against or in reference to me that they intended would hurt, anger, offend or otherwise have a negative effect on me. But they don't. I give them no power. Think back to the days of Lenny Bruce, who used words and phrases that got him arrested many times. He didn't care. He didn't fear them, and continued to use them in his routines. Many of the offensive terms used would not really draw that much ire today. Why? Because we have become desensitized to them. Oh sure, some of the obscenities are still considered obscene, but does it really matter? Do they really hurt anyone? Instead of hiding from the term, just blow it off. Is the event itself tragic? Yes. Will the world end if someone says :censored: ? No. Does life go on? Yes. Will I ever shut up? Yes, time to get off the soapbox myself. We now return you to your regularly scheduled chaos...
WizO_Sith 07-02-04, 11:07 PM	Ok, a couple of things here... This is not the appropriate avenue for expressing discontent and/or trying to affect change in a WotC Product. The proper way to go about expressing your opinion is by following =>This Link<= (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=company/feedbackform). Allow me to re-iterate - Posting Complaints On The WotC Forums Accomplishes Nothing, the feedback form at the above link is the only way these things go forward. Flaming/Baiting is a vioalation of the WotC Online Code of Conduct (www.wizards.com/coc) and will not be tolerated on these forums. This thread will be locked and no further conversations of this nature will be allowed. Click