Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Wraith428 01-21-06, 12:52 AM	So how long has the "line of Vol" been around actually. The PGtE seems to indicate for almost 40,000 years. Here are some clues. On p.224 of ECS it says: "-38,000 ...the elves settle Aerenal" Then on p.18 of the PGtE it says: "...the Aereni were determined to find a way to preserve their heroes through their interest in the art of necromancy. This research followed two paths: the negative necromancy of the line of Vol... and the positive energy of the Priests of Transition. Ultimately it was the positive path that took root..." Then on p.224 of the ECS it says: "-25,000 The Undying Court appears in Aerenal." This implies that between -38,000 and -25,000 there was a philosopical battle between negative energy necromancers (line of Vol) and positive energy necromancers (the Priest of Transition/Undying Court.) That means the line of Vol's been around a pretty long time. Yet they didn't develope the mark of death until -3,200 (p.224 of the ECS). If the line of Vol lost the philosophical battle some 22,000 years before they ever developed the mark what were they doing for all that time. When the mark manifested why weren't they immediately persicuted (assuming the mark is based on negative energy necromancy). How did they rise to power if they were negative energy necromancers? Note that as a DM in my campaign I do make a certain assumption that some remnant of the line survived after -2,600 when the house was "...wiped out on Aerenal." There's no proof on that in any source book and that's more a DM decision... but that is neither here nor there. I'm more interetesed in the history of the line that seems to have been around since before the elves even came over to Aerenal (see the first paragraph on p.22 of the PGtE in the Blood of Vol section.) I'm specifically interested in this as I'm running an Age of Worms campaign set in Eberron and I've been slowly tieing Kyuss to the ancient elven cultures of Aerenal & Xen'drik. What do other people think? Any furthure insight. Wraith428
nastynate 01-21-06, 01:33 AM	I prefer to think that before House Vol existed, the Blood of Vol cult was known by a different name; perhaps simply the Path of Blood. They existed for generations in Aerenal, but philosophically most elves eventually gravitated towards the Undying Way, which was less sinister and dark. As the millenia passed those who practiced the Path of Blood, were few in number, but still there, practicing their dark arts in secret. When the dragon marks appeared on some of the elven followers of the Path of Blood, they took it as sign. They emerged from the shadows and formed House Vol and House Phairlan. It probably didn't sit too well with the Undying Court when these ugly step sisters, and heathens of a faith they thought they had suppressed, suddenly had ties to the draconic prophecy, and wanted to share the limelight. It undermined the validity of their own faith, and probably stirred up all kinds of trouble. Erandis d'Vol was just the excuse they needed to exterminate them, not the reason why they did so. The war was waged directly against House Vol, but not against all elves who followed the Path of Blood. However with the fall of House Vol, the faithful may have felt very vulnerable, and very much in danger. They most likely fled Aerenal in much the same manner as House Phairlan. They just didn't feel safe or welcome in Aerenal any longer. The religion is commonly known as the Blood of Vol now, but that's only because of the ties it shared with House Vol, who brought them out of the shadows and into the public eye. When the faithful of the Blood fled to Khorvaire, the name stuck. The common people who follow the Blood of Vol don't know anything about it's ties to Erandis, House Vol, or even the elves from whom it originates. In my campaign, some of the drow of Xen'drik follow the Path of Blood, but have no known ties to House Vol or the mark of death...yet...Anyway it's all conjecture, and really just the option I've chosen to explore. The Blood of Vol, and Karrnath are the focus of my campaign, so I've taken quite a bit of creative license with them. :D
shemov 01-21-06, 02:21 AM	So how long has the "line of Vol" been around actually. The PGtE seems to indicate for almost 40,000 years. Here are some clues. On p.224 of ECS it says: "-38,000 ...the elves settle Aerenal" Then on p.18 of the PGtE it says: "...the Aereni were determined to find a way to preserve their heroes through their interest in the art of necromancy. This research followed two paths: the negative necromancy of the line of Vol... and the positive energy of the Priests of Transition. Ultimately it was the positive path that took root..." Then on p.224 of the ECS it says: "-25,000 The Undying Court appears in Aerenal." This implies that between -38,000 and -25,000 there was a philosopical battle between negative energy necromancers (line of Vol) and positive energy necromancers (the Priest of Transition/Undying Court.) That means the line of Vol's been around a pretty long time. Yet they didn't develope the mark of death until -3,200 (p.224 of the ECS). If the line of Vol lost the philosophical battle some 22,000 years before they ever developed the mark what were they doing for all that time. When the mark manifested why weren't they immediately persicuted (assuming the mark is based on negative energy necromancy). How did they rise to power if they were negative energy necromancers? Note that as a DM in my campaign I do make a certain assumption that some remnant of the line survived after -2,600 when the house was "...wiped out on Aerenal." There's no proof on that in any source book and that's more a DM decision... but that is neither here nor there. I'm more interetesed in the history of the line that seems to have been around since before the elves even came over to Aerenal (see the first paragraph on p.22 of the PGtE in the Blood of Vol section.) I'm specifically interested in this as I'm running an Age of Worms campaign set in Eberron and I've been slowly tieing Kyuss to the ancient elven cultures of Aerenal & Xen'drik. What do other people think? Any furthure insight. Wraith428 i dm AoW in Eberron as well. pls find below my base for this Kyuss, the only elf with Siberys Mark of Death had been lost in Xen'drik and in time before the line of Vol was exterminated. Dragotha (main minion of Erandis d'Vol today and fallen member of the Chamber in the forgotten past) and Emerald Claw work hard to release Kyuss once again into the world and their plan is reaching its final stage. Erandis believes that thanks to Kyuss released, the Mark of death revive. She does not know or does not want to know that she must be destroyed in the final stage of the process cause her existence blocks Kyuss (Mark of Death) revive. This is why in "Into the wormcrawl Fissure" PCs may ally with Dragotha who is devoted to Erandis d'Vol. The nation off Redhand I’m going to convert to Karrnath which in time of final adventures will be torn by civil war between Emerald Claw + Blood of Vol followers against Kaius III loyalists. Third party involved in this war will be the Silver Flame crusade. Other nations will be preoccupied with internal omens of cataclysm (AGE OF WORMS), main Darguuns raids and Lord of Blades activity. other thoughts prince Zeech = Kaius III Kyuss binds himself to a dragonshard monolith Katashka (rakshasa or rajah - decision still not taken) teaches Kyuss how to control his powerfull dragonmark. he is Kyuss's mentor on Xen'drik In Labyrinth (demon wastes), I choose Maruk clan (Silver Flame) binding Kyuss again) In 3FoE the cathedral used to be Erandis d'Vol one where she was researching this old forgotten Kyuss and Age of Worm story first time Eberron's Prophecy is in a heavy use by me the Twilight Monastery = based on old forgotten tradition of Maruk's clan relatives protecting Sharn's prophecy touched area 2000 years ago (the time when barbaric humans were getting stronger and stronger). Today the Silver Flame order. Monks there are heavy involved in prophecy research what makes them very distinctive as for Silver Flame standards. 2000 ago orks from Maruk's like clan made Quean of Death retreat from her dark cathedral.
Wraith428 01-23-06, 12:12 AM	Bump.
Straylight 01-23-06, 01:11 AM	What's the bump for? I think nastynate did a pretty good job of summing it up. Just because the religion existed for that long doesn't mean that House Vol did. It is likely that the original Vol line (pre-mark) were followers of this Blood faith, and that they just used the appearance of their mark as an excuse to a) usurp control of the religion for their own ends and b) legitimize what was at the time probably an underground cult. They interpreted their mark as "see? We have been granted these powers by the Progenitors themselves, that means our religion is the right one!" which couldn't have sat well with the already-established Undying Court. Hostilities began to fester between the Court and the upstart Vol line, and Erandis really was more of an excuse rather than a reason to wipe out the house and the mark in an attempt by the Court to secure their religious dominance once and for all -which worked, insofar as the elves are concerned, although it turns out that they didn't so much wipe out the Blood faith as they did force it underground and off the island. The only discrepancy I really see with the timeline presented in PGtE is that they call it "The Blood of Vol" in reference to times when that wasn't -couldn't have been- the acknowledged name. Likely, it started off known as the "Path of Blood" or something similar, which became "The Path of the Blood of House Vol" after the d'mark line took over the religion, which got truncated to the "Blood of Vol" sometime after. The Order of the Emerald Claw probably didn't pop up in its current form until Erandis made her move [on/to (circle one)] Karrnathi soil and King Kaius, by which point the Last War was already heating up.
Fuzzy_Logic 01-24-06, 10:09 AM	Of cours,e the undying court wouldn't have been happy with the dragonmarks anyway, given their enmity with the dragons.... if you think about, the path of blood WOULD be the undying court's natural enemy. the undying court presevres "life" throuhg undeath- and deathless don't have blood. the blood of vol cultits belive that you live on through the blood of your descendants, so the pre-blood of vol types would, like the tairnadal, reject the undying court.
Lord Kell 01-24-06, 06:31 PM	Before the birth of Erandis, they could've simply been two seperate philosophies. It's not required that the less favored would be automatically outlawed, after all, they developed together for millenia. Necromancy via negative energy was probably only frowned on, not persecuted. Until Erandis Vol the half-dragon was born. It seems obvious to me that there were no open hostilities between the the two philosophies until her birth.
Yare 01-27-06, 04:28 AM	According to one of the Eberron trilogies, descendants of Vol survived, and the blood is fairly widespread (though diluted).
Siran Dunmorgan 01-27-06, 05:33 AM	The only discrepancy I really see with the timeline presented in PGtE is that they call it "The Blood of Vol" in reference to times when that wasn't -couldn't have been- the acknowledged name. The dragonmarked line did not "take over" the religion. The Eberron Campaign Setting clearly describes the line of Vol—and the attendant practice of Mabar-centered necromancy, and the philosophy of blood as life and undeath as freedom from the tyranny of death—stretching back to ancient Xen'drik. There has been a House Vol since before the Exodus, since before the Rebellion, its origins lost in the cataclysm that broke the last of the Giant empires. Yes, its members were eventually to bear the Mark of Death, just as there have been Phiarlan since the time of the Rebellion, and their line eventually bore the Mark of Shadow. But the respective practices and philosophies that are the true foundations of these Houses pre-date the appearance of the Marks by tens of millenia. The elves keep excellent records, so we know, clearly, the histories of the Houses both before and after the appearance of the Marks. Indeed, for every dragonmarked House save Tharashk, the extended family that was to bear the Mark was already established, and an existing economic or political power long before its Mark appeared. Consider Kundarak, long a preeminent clan among the Mror, indeed, the overseers of the exile of the Mror dwarves from the deep kingdoms, in an age before the appearance of the Mark of Warding. Ghallandra and Jorasco were established tribes among the Talenta before their Marks appeared, and they are the oldest of the true dragonmarks. Remember: when one is dealing with the Prophecy, one is—this is the nature of prophecies—dealing with a thing that exists outside time, and the dragonmarks are the Prophecy literally written into the flesh of the lesser races. It's quite likely that the ancient line of Vol in the time before the rebellion and exodus became prominent necromancers because they would eventually bear the Mark of Death, and not that they bore the mark because they were already known for their fascination with undeath. —Siran Dunmorgan
nastynate 01-27-06, 08:39 AM	Siran Dunmorgan, I respectfully disagree. Quoted from the ECS pg. 231 Individual dragonmarks appeared within blood lines, and soon family dynasties sprang up to take advantage of the dragonmark powers. Each familiy created an economic empire using the dragonmarks, and the dragonmarked houses developed into independent commerce states opperating accross multiple nations. The War of the Mark, which ended about fifteen hundred years ago, stabalized the houses and ended the threat of aberrant and mixed marks that might have destroyed the economy of Khorvaire. Today twelve dragonmarks shared among thirteen houses form the basis for economic power accross the continent. This seems to indicate that the houses were not firmly established organizations when the marks first manifested. They may have come from established bloodlines (aka races), even those with loose ties like a tribe or clan, but in the beginning there was interbreeding and an abundance of aberrant marks that seems indicate the families weren't tightly knit or firmly established guilds so to speak. It seems more like War of the Mark put an end to thier interbreeding, and set in motion the events which led to the common families we have today, who share one particular mark. The houses did indeed form around the marks; once there were predictable established marks, the families could build their mercantile empires around trades connected to and enhanced by their innate magical abilities. The dragonmarked line did not "take over" the religion. Actually this is a misconception. The original confusion of the OP (and it seems yours as well) comes from the connection between the Blood of Vol (which has been an established religious cult since before the elves settled Aerenal around 40,000 years ago) and House Vol which only appeared after the mark of death manifested 4,200 years ago. In fact in the PGtE in the Blood of Vol chapter it states that 3,000 years ago House Vol "took control" of the religion (which directly contradicts your statement) by virtue of the powers they had manifested from the mark of death (see pg. 22 first paragraph). 400 years later when House Vol was destroyed, the religion faded into obscurity. If the two organizations didn't share a name there would be little confusion, which is why I selected to refer to the faith as the path of blood (whenever it is used in the context of a time before House Vol took over).
Siran Dunmorgan 01-27-06, 04:11 PM	[Aside: I really enjoy this kind of scriptural debate. I may lose, but the debate itself is still very entertaining.] Rather than quoting and refuting point by point, I'm going to lay out the ground work for my assertions about the Dragonmarked Houses in general, and House Vol in particular. First, is the Eberron Campaign Setting, p. 228: "The Blood of Vol flows into the distant past, the Aerenal and Xen'drik, the continent of secrets." This establishes the Blood of Vol as originating in Xen'drik. Next is the Dragonshard article House Phiarlan, Part One:In time, the Priests of Transition won the support of the majority of the Aereni. The path of the deathless relied on the veneration of life, while many saw the work of Vol as preying on the living to prolong the life of a few. Over the course of thousands of years, the Undying Court took form, and this served as an anchor that brought the lines together. The first conflict against the dragons cemented this unity. Following this first battle, the councilors of the Undying Court selected the first of the Sibling Kings, and modern Aerenal was formed.This establishes the line of Vol explicitly in opposition to the work of the Undying Court before the rise of the Sibling Kings, at the time of the establishment of Aerenal. The same article also establishes the history of House Phiarlan; originally, phiarlan were drawn from only three elven family lines: Tialaen, Shol, and Elorrenthi. These houses were already known as the source of phiarlan, and had been known as phiarlan since the rebellion against the giants in Xen'drik. When the Mark appeared, these three families were consolidated by the suspicion of the Sibling Kings and of the Undying Court: they relocated en masse to Khorvaire after the extermination of Vol, where they were collectively known as House Phiarlan. However, they had already borne both this name and their societal role well before the appearance of the Dragonmarks. The same article continues: The rivalry between the Priests of the Transition and the followers of Vol had been building for thousands of years, and the appearance of the Mark of Death three thousand years ago simply made matters worse. With respect to other races, we can look at the role of House Kundarak; the Dragonshard article Dwarves of the Mror Holds, Part One says:This age came to an end in the reign of Lord Kordran Mror. A number of warriors and heroes had stirred up unrest in the deep realm, and Mror banished twelve of the leaders plus their followers to the surface of the mountains. The depths were sealed off with magical wards and a clan of wardens sent to the lands above to ensure that the seals remained until the others "proved themselves to be worthy of the kingdom below."and laterThen came the summons. The dwarves of Kundarak were the keepers of the wards, and they called the lords of the twelve clans to their hold. In the halls of Korunda Gate the clan lords met in peace, discussed their plans for the nation, and expressed concern about their future in the Kingdom of Galifar.which seems to indicate that Kundarak had been an exceedingly prominent clan in the first days of the Holds, given that they were entrusted with control of the seals. Again: they had the authority of warding before they possessed the Mark of Warding, just as the line of Vol were potent necromancers before they bore the Mark of Death. Similar statements have been made about the Ghallanda and Jorasco clans of the Talenta plains, though not with the officiousness of the Dragonshard articles. I can accept that for the Human and Khoravar Houses that their prominence is due to, and may not precede, the manifestation of their Dragonmarks. However, I believe that the citations above are sufficient to support the point that for the elven and dwarven houses, their political and economic prominence pre-dates the appearance of their Dragonmarks. Specifically, I believe that these citations are sufficient to demonstrate that the traditions of the Blood of Vol—the religion—and the line of Vol—the family— are coextant as far as their histories can be traced. With respect to the citation of the Player's Guide to Eberron, I believe that volume is simply in error, in much the same way that Magic of Eberron errs in describing Aeren as male, as the instigator of the rebellion against the giants, and as the first of the Deathless. —Siran Dunmorgan
nastynate 01-27-06, 10:49 PM	[Aside: I really enjoy this kind of scriptural debate. I may lose, but the debate itself is still very entertaining.] :D Keeping with this line of thought, I will indeed venture to keep up the debate. I'm glad you don't take any of this personally, and find it as entertaining as I do. I agree there is material that seems to indicate that some of the dragonmarked lines had previously established themselves in various roles before the manifestation of their marks. It is also quite likely that the marks manifested in people who had a natural talent in fields of expertise enhanced by the powers gained from their marks. I don't completely disagree with you there. The dragonmarks (and the War of the Mark specifically) were the catalyst that ensured the marks stayed within a single family; before the war, there was interbreeding, and the familiy lines were mixed and muddled. First, is the Eberron Campaign Setting, p. 228: "The Blood of Vol flows into the distant past, the Aerenal and Xen'drik, the continent of secrets." This establishes the Blood of Vol as originating in Xen'drik. So the religion dates back before Aerenal... In time, the Priests of Transition won the support of the majority of the Aereni. The path of the deathless relied on the veneration of life, while many saw the work of Vol as preying on the living to prolong the life of a few. Over the course of thousands of years, the Undying Court took form, and this served as an anchor that brought the lines together. The first conflict against the dragons cemented this unity. Following this first battle, the councilors of the Undying Court selected the first of the Sibling Kings, and modern Aerenal was formed. And the noble lines were established in Aerenal... This establishes the line of Vol explicitly in opposition to the work of the Undying Court before the rise of the Sibling Kings, at the time of the establishment of Aerenal.Correction, this establishes the faith currently known as the Blood of Vol in direct opposition to the work of the Undying Court. The line of Vol was undoubtedly one of the many elven noble families that clearly date back to this point, however the elven nobles lines were not established before their religious beliefs were. The foundations for the religious beliefs of both the priests of transition and the path of blood were established in Xen'drik, while the elves were still slaves, long before they could be considered noble families. It is very unlikely that every noble familiy in Aerenal can trace their roots to Xen'drik. The Tairnadal can and do trace their roots to ancestors who fought against the giants, but neither the Undying Court nor The Blood of Vol revere these ancient heroes. Thier religious beliefs may have roots during this period, but thier family lines were established in Aerenal, after the slave revolt. So it seems that the path of blood was indeed established, before the line of Vol. In Aerenal the necromantic traditions of the path of blood seemed to have become synonomous with the noble line of Vol, but they did not originate with them. I stand by my theory that the elves fled to Aerenal with three established (though unrefined) religious traditions, namely the hero worship of the Tairnadal, the priests of transition, and path of blood. History seems to indicate that the path of blood was forced to conduct themsleves in secret, once the Undying Court took hold as the preeminent faith of Aerenal. Only when the mark of death manifested did House Vol (one of the noble families among the elves & secret followers of the ancient path of blood) dare to reveal that they did not serve the Undying Court. Ever since this time House Vol has been tied to the necromantic faith now known as "The Blood of Vol." There are three important distinctions that need to made clear about Vol. 1. The line of Vol was a noble elven family in Aerenal (established ? sometime after the elves fled to Aerenal) 2. The Blood of Vol is the name of the religion commonly associated with them (with roots older than Aerenal 40,000+ years ago) 3. The Mark of Death manifested in members of the line of Vol, who then became House Vol (4198 years ago) With respect to the citation of the Player's Guide to Eberron, I believe that volume is simply in error, in much the same way that Magic of Eberron errs in describing Aeren as male, as the instigator of the rebellion against the giants, and as the first of the Deathless. MoE was in direct contradiction to previously established fact. This is not, and only elaborates upon what we currenly know. There is no reason to dismiss it, even if by doing so it strengthens your argument.
dang 01-28-06, 03:07 AM	i'm glad you two have fun debating! can i play, too? nastynate, i basically agree with your overall point, but i take issue with some of your supporting statements: So the religion dates back before Aerenal... i disagree here. from the Dragonshard "Elves of Aerenal:" "One of their greatest interests was the art of necromancy; in their reverence for their ancestors, the elves were determined to find a way to preserve their heroes. In time, two schools of thought came to dominate the field of necromancy: the techniques of the line of Vol, which many blame for the spread of vampirism into Khorvaire; and the traditions of the Priests of Transition, which focused on positive energy and the power of Irian" (Baker). the phrase "in time" to me indicates formation/growth post-emigration. I think your quote of the "the Blood of Vol flows into the past..." is just an instance of creative writing getting the better of the author's intended message. I believe the message is that the blood (uncapitalized) flows into the past, as genealogy -- the house/line originated on xen'drik. ...but neither the Undying Court nor The Blood of Vol revere these ancient heroes. naw, it's clear the path of transition still reveres these heroes. e.g. all the memorials to these ancient heroes in Shae Mordai. one who is present does not require a "memorial fire" (EH), or "monuments to... the heroes of previous eras" (Drgnshrd, EofA). i think the undying have pre-eminence, as a supposedly more perfect, purer form of the revered object. more on this next. I stand by my theory that the elves fled to Aerenal with three established (though unrefined) religious traditions, namely the hero worship of the Tairnadal, the priests of transition, and path of blood. the elves on xen'drik did not have the time, resources, or permission to carry out necromantic research, or even create new religions. they were either working or fighting for their lives in much more immediate sense. "Those elves found a home on the island of Aerenal. While the elves came from different cultures, they were united by their reverence for their ancestors and the heroic deeds of those fallen in Xen'drik. The majority of the settlers chose to lay down the sword in favor of the book. They studied the art of magic, plumbing the depth of the arcane and the divine in their search for a way to preserve their heroes. Over the course of twelve thousand years, this effort produced the Undying Court and the Aereni" (Baker, Drgnshrd: Elves of Valenar). once again, this indicates unity, and puts the development of the religions into a time frame. i believe that the religions of the keepers of the past and the priests of transition are one and the same. (and implicit evidence for this is found in the fact that they share domains, favored weapons, etc.) both venerate the past heroes, but the transition continues to canonize, and their process for doing this is by ascending to a spiritual but still incarnate state. the councilors are essentially iconic saints, or even boddhisatvas (sp?), representing the power of the deceased, heroic elven soul, but maintained in semi-corporeal form by the power of Irian-infused ritual. The keepers of the past (Tairnadal) would still honor the undying to a small degree, but find them a vulgarized imitation of the original, while the aereni probably see the tairnadal as fundamentalist, backward, puritanical, and unenlightened, but okay enough. controversially, i'd argue that the original Vols also venerated the heroes, but employed the path of Mabar-infused, wicked rituals. the moderns have veered away from this following their subsequent defeat and rejection. History seems to indicate that the path of blood was forced to conduct themsleves in secret, once the Undying Court took hold as the preeminent faith of Aerenal. Only when the mark of death manifested did House Vol (one of the noble families among the elves & secret followers of the ancient path of blood) dare to reveal that they did not serve the Undying Court. Ever since this time House Vol has been tied to the necromantic faith now known as "The Blood of Vol." again, i'm not so sure. the Phiarlan drgnshrds indicate that they served as ambassadors and spies "between the courts." hard to do if one court is clandestine. also, open war wouldn't result from a falling-out, a guerilla war would. again, i mostly agree with your ideas, nastynate, but i think the island of aerenal ITSELF played a huge part in the formation of the religions -- it's a magic place, littered with a comparatively densely concentrated number of manifest zones to mabar and irian (night and day). the three religions grew from the same traditions, but evolved organically through different alignments and geographies.
nastynate 01-28-06, 05:32 AM	once again, this indicates unity, and puts the development of the religions into a time frame. i believe that the religions of the keepers of the past and the priests of transition are one and the same. (and implicit evidence for this is found in the fact that they share domains, favored weapons, etc.) both venerate the past heroes, but the transition continues to canonize, and their process for doing this is by ascending to a spiritual but still incarnate state. the councilors are essentially iconic saints, or even boddhisatvas (sp?), representing the power of the deceased, heroic elven soul, but maintained in semi-corporeal form by the power of Irian-infused ritual. The keepers of the past (Tairnadal) would still honor the undying to a small degree, but find them a vulgarized imitation of the original, while the aereni probably see the tairnadal as fundamentalist, backward, puritanical, and unenlightened, but okay enough. So by this line of thought Lutherans, Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox Christians, and Jehovah's Witnessess are all following the same religion? Similar yes, but not the same. I imagine a Keeper of the Past would be just as insulted if you called him a Priest of Transition, as a Catholic Bishop would be, if you called him a Jehovah's Witness. The Blood of Vol I liken to the Jews in this equation; still connected, by a common thread, but even more removed by virtue of a philosophical break from one another long, long ago. All three religions share an origin in a similar time and place. They may even have common stories, myths, and rituals, but they are distinct from one another none-the-less. the elves on xen'drik did not have the time, resources, or permission to carry out necromantic research, or even create new religions. they were either working or fighting for their lives in much more immediate sense.Throughout history various slaves from all over the world had their own distict religious beliefs. When as a people you are enslaved, you need something to believe in. For example the Jews were the slaves of ancient egypt, and this period of time plays a pretty significant role in their religious history. The jews seemed to have the time, and resources to write Exodus. I'm not trying to suggest that the elf slaves were permitted to practice necromancy by their masters; I am however trying to suggest that the foundation of their belief system did indeed begin during the time of their enslavement. naw, it's clear the path of transition still reveres these heroes. e.g. all the memorials to these ancient heroes in Shae Mordai. one who is present does not require a "memorial fire" (EH), or "monuments to... the heroes of previous eras" (Drgnshrd, EofA). i think the undying have pre-eminence, as a supposedly more perfect, purer form of the revered object. more on this next. There is a difference between momorials and respect of ones ancestors, and worship. I've been to the Vietnam Memorial, and it was moving; I have a great deal of respect for those soldiers, but I don't worship them. The Undying Court respect their ancestors, heroes, and founders, but they do not worship them either. Among the elves of Aerenal only the Keepers of Past have this distinct reverence upon which the basis of their religious beliefs are built. Only the keepers of the past worship the spirits of ancient elven heroes. again, i mostly agree with your ideas, nastynate, but i think the island of aerenal ITSELF played a huge part in the formation of the religions -- it's a magic place, littered with a comparatively densely concentrated number of manifest zones to mabar and irian (night and day). the three religions grew from the same traditions, but evolved organically through different alignments and geographies. I believe you are correct, that Aerenal itself and the manifest zone tied to it, played significant roles in how the elven religions developed, but the foundation of the belief system came with them from Xen'drik. I didn't have to extrapolate that conclusion from various different sources, it has been clearly indicated in numerous places. The Blood of Vol doesn't just figuratively flow into the ancient past... From PGtE Pg. 22: The Blood of Vol flows from the distant past, when the first stirrings of faith in blood as the source of life, and undeath as a path to divinity, arose within the elf tribes of Xen'drik. The rudimentary faith developed along with the elves, following them to Aerenal and eventually spreading to other races. (Rumors persist that a version of the faith is still practiced by certain drow socieities in Xen'drik.) Three thousand years ago, House Vol took control of the ancient faith due to the powers granted by the mark of death. When House Vol was destroyed four hundred years later, the faith was shattered and faded away with the passage of time.
dang 01-28-06, 02:53 PM	So by this line of thought Lutherans, Protestants, Catholics, Orthodox Christians, and Jehovah's Witnessess are all following the same religion? um, yes? isn't it called "Christianity?" many communities even celebrate a "unity sunday" in which the catholics and protestants come together and worship. lutherans don't, though. and lutherans and the j.w.s are both protestants. I imagine a Keeper of the Past would be just as insulted if you called him a Priest of Transition, as a Catholic Bishop would be, if you called him a Jehovah's Witness. did i say this? i don't think i ever referred to those elves as having the same religion. similar roots does not equal one identity. Throughout history various slaves from all over the world had their own distict religious beliefs. When as a people you are enslaved, you need something to believe in. For example the Jews were the slaves of ancient egypt, and this period of time plays a pretty significant role in their religious history. The jews seemed to have the time, and resources to write Exodus. I'm not trying to suggest that the elf slaves were permitted to practice necromancy by their masters; I am however trying to suggest that the foundation of their belief system did indeed begin during the time of their enslavement. wrong. the hebrew people's religious tradition predates their slavery in egypt. both archaeology and logic establish this. notice that exodus is the 2nd book? and exodus was DEFINITELY not written while in slavery. first of all, linguistic analysis indicates it was written long after they settled in canaan. secondly, exodus takes place AFTER their emancipation. even genesis was recorded post their period in babylon... centuries later. exodus isn't moses' autobiography. There is a difference between momorials and respect of ones ancestors, and worship. I've been to the Vietnam Memorial, and it was moving; I have a great deal of respect for those soldiers, but I don't worship them. The Undying Court respect their ancestors, heroes, and founders, but they do not worship them either. Among the elves of Aerenal only the Keepers of Past have this distinct reverence upon which the basis of their religious beliefs are built. Only the keepers of the past worship the spirits of ancient elven heroes. yeah, but we don't worship our ancestors, do we? a memorial to an ancestor cult (think disney's mulan) and a name on a stone are very different. I believe you are correct, that Aerenal itself and the manifest zone tied to it, played significant roles in how the elven religions developed, but the foundation of the belief system came with them from Xen'drik. I didn't have to extrapolate that conclusion from various different sources, it has been clearly indicated in numerous places. The Blood of Vol doesn't just figuratively flow into the ancient past... did i "extrapolate?" i thought i quoted sources directly... i suggest re-reading the dragonshards on phiarlan, aerenal, and valenar. personally, i prefer keith's analysis over vague statements, even if they're from the ECS. From PGtE Pg. 22:[/QUOTE]
Euangelion 01-28-06, 03:52 PM	Trying to put things simply, I believe that the trajectory of the line of thought from the various sources seems to indicate that: 1. an elven family bearing the name Vol arose in Xen'drik 2. that the family Vol along with other elves began learning necromancy as well as all other forms of magic from the giants (largely without the giants' knowledge) 3. that for whatever reason the Mark of Death appeared only among the family of Vol after arriving at Aerenal but that this allowed the House of Vol to consolidate all of the practicioners of negative energy necromancy, both arcane and divine, under their control 4. and that the religion that venerates the powers of necromancy and undeath took on the name of the House of Vol due to their special position 5. but the roots of that religion date back to Xen'drik Is this an accurate summation that covers all the bases? Also, as a matter of accuracy: 1. Lutherans are Protestants, in fact Martin Luther himself sparked the Protestant Reformation in 1517. To say that Lutherans aren't Protestants would be like saying that George Washington wasn't an American. However, recently many Lutheran Churches and the Roman Catholic Church signed a document declaring that many of the issues that once separated those Churches have now been resolved, a step few other Protestant Churches have taken with the Catholic Church. 2. Jehovah's Witnesses are technically not Protestants, because they are not orthodox (with a little "o" meaning "correct doctrine," as opposed to Orthodox Christianity, the eastern branch of Christianity arising from the Great Schism of 1054 AD) Christians. I could go into the doctrines that unite all Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christians but that are not held by Jehovah's Witnesses, or you can look them up yourselves. So technically, from the standpoint of Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses are not Protestants, they're heretics.
nastynate 01-28-06, 04:05 PM	um, yes? isn't it called "Christianity?" many communities even celebrate a "unity sunday" in which the catholics and protestants come together and worship. lutherans don't, though. and lutherans and the j.w.s are both protestants.No, Lutherans and Catholics are not practitioners of the same religion. They are both Christian, but not the same. You are trying generalize diverse beliefs into one big Christian faith which doesn't show much respect for their differences. Originally Posted by nastynate I imagine a Keeper of the Past would be just as insulted if you called him a Priest of Transition, as a Catholic Bishop would be, if you called him a Jehovah's Witness. did i say this? i don't think i ever referred to those elves as having the same religion. similar roots does not equal one identity.Hmmm...you didn't say this?i believe that the religions of the keepers of the past and the priests of transition are one and the same. (and implicit evidence for this is found in the fact that they share domains, favored weapons, etc.) wrong. the hebrew people's religious tradition predates their slavery in egypt. both archaeology and logic establish this. notice that exodus is the 2nd book? and exodus was DEFINITELY not written while in slavery. first of all, linguistic analysis indicates it was written long after they settled in canaan. secondly, exodus takes place AFTER their emancipation. even genesis was recorded post their period in babylon... centuries later. exodus isn't moses' autobiographyYou aren't addressing my point, only my analogy, which clearly had flaws. Your knowledge of religious history is apparently better than mine. I am humbled. So back to point, and away from my terrible analogy, do you really believe that slaves could not have devoloped a philosophy or belief system while in slavery? The PGtE clearly states that the elves did, and there is no good reason to suggest it's not possible or wrong (as you claim), since it doesn't contradict any established material that preceded it. I think the PGtE is right, because it's official published material, and it makes sense... yeah, but we don't worship our ancestors, do we? a memorial to an ancestor cult (think disney's mulan) and a name on a stone are very different. I'll go out on a limb and say the priests of transition worship the Undying Host, and respect their ancestors, while the Tairnadal worship their ancestors, and respect the Undying Court. That is the defining difference between their faiths, is it not? Still I've got this on my side From PGtE Pg. 22: The Blood of Vol flows from the distant past, when the first stirrings of faith in blood as the source of life, and undeath as a path to divinity, arose within the elf tribes of Xen'drik. The rudimentary faith developed along with the elves, following them to Aerenal and eventually spreading to other races. (Rumors persist that a version of the faith is still practiced by certain drow socieities in Xen'drik.) Three thousand years ago, House Vol took control of the ancient faith due to the powers granted by the mark of death. When House Vol was destroyed four hundred years later, the faith was shattered and faded away with the passage of time. I requoted this, the opening paragraph in it's entirety, word for word, from the PGtE. It's not vague at all. EDIT: Trying to put things simply, I believe that the trajectory of the line of thought from the various sources seems to indicate that: 1. an elven family bearing the name Vol arose in Xen'drik 2. that the family Vol along with other elves began learning necromancy as well as all other forms of magic from the giants (largely without the giants' knowledge) 3. that for whatever reason the Mark of Death appeared only among the family of Vol after arriving at Aerenal but that this allowed the House of Vol to consolidate all of the practicioners of negative energy necromancy, both arcane and divine, under their control 4. and that the religion that venerates the powers of necromancy and undeath took on the name of the House of Vol due to their special position 5. but the roots of that religion date back to Xen'drik This exactly mirrors my opinion. EDIT II: I removed all personal attacks...I got a little heated there for a minute. Sorry.
dang 01-29-06, 05:21 PM	lutheranism and catholicism are denominations of the same religion. Christianity is a religion, lutheranism is a denomination/sect of the religion. lutheranism is further divided into synods, which have slightly different beliefs. but belief in the "holy trinity," e.g. father, son, & h.s. constitutes the religion of christianity. from dictionary.com: Chris·ti·an·i·ty ( P ) Pronunciation Key (krsch-n-t, krst-) n. 1. The Christian religion, founded on the life and teachings of Jesus. 2. Christians as a group; Christendom. 3. The state or fact of being a Christian. 4. pl. Chris·ti·an·i·ties A particular form or sect of the Christian religion: the Christianities of antiquity. euangelion, you're right from a historical perspective about the j.w.s, but in northern ireland, for example, they'd be qualified as protestants. i was taught to divide into 3 main groups: E. Orths, Caths, and Prots. and btw, i think your summary is totally accurate -- nice :) you're right, i was a big hypocrite, i called the elves religions the same :( i think it would be more accurate (and this is what i meant, i swear!) to say that i think they worship, and receive power from the same source. in the abstract sense, the worship of the heroic elven soul, whether undying or dead, is the font they tap when casting spells, imho. but that's just me. i don't have PGtE yet (on back order), but as a personal choice, i always prioritize hellcow's word of mouth (err... word of hands?) over even official material. e.g. the travesty of the "legend of aeren..." but i'm done debating real-world religions. but fake-world religions... the PGtE quote about the "rudimentary faith" of Blood of Vol still doesn't fully support your contention that three "established religions" fled to aerenal. that's what i'm sayin. and i think i'm done sayin it. piece aut.
Hellcow 01-29-06, 07:20 PM	that the family Vol along with other elves began learning necromancy as well as all other forms of magic from the giants... As a side note, and make of this what you will, in my personal opinion the strongest path of elven negative necromancy came not from the giants, but from the fallen elven culture of the Qabalrin. This nation is described in the Ring of Storms article in Dungeon #122, and assuming nothing dramatic happens in the next few months, in Secrets of Xen'drik. Qabalrin civilization was destroyed by a natural disaster, but survivors were taken as slaves or joined the elf-giant battle on their own, and other elves have sought to recover Qabalrin knowledge over the millenia. It's entirely possible that the line of Vol actually traces its roots to the Qabalrin, though I don't recall if that's been officially stated anywhere (and by 'anywhere', I'm including completed but as yet unpublished sourcebooks). Anyhow, with Faiths of Eberron on the horizon, within the year you should have a more official answer on the subject.
dang 01-30-06, 03:22 AM	et voila! we're ALL partly wrong! thank you, hellcow -- that was very deus ex machina of you ;)
Siran Dunmorgan 01-30-06, 05:03 AM	So technically, from the standpoint of Catholic, Protestant, and Orthodox Christians, Jehovah's Witnesses are not Protestants, they're heretics.Strictly speaking, they adhere to a modern form of the Arian heresy, proscribed by the Church at the first Council of Nicea. They fail to regard the Christ as divine, so—by some definitions—they're not even Christians. Now, that said, their scholarship in linguistics, in Bible studies, and Levantine archaeology is generally very excellent—very few scholars disagree with the Witnesses' facts, regardless of the theological validity of their conclusions. Personally, I welcome the ladies who show up at my front door every Thursday morning, and generally make time to sit and work through their weekly lessons on Scripture with them—I wasn't kidding when I said I enjoy this kind of debate, and the Witnesses can put up a very strong argument. Et voilà! We're all partly wrong! Thank you, Hellcow—that was very deus ex machina of you! Hellcow does that a lot. ;) However, his intervention hardly stems the discussion: for our purposes[1], all he has done is to verify that the necromantic tradition of the line of Vol does, indeed, originate with ancient Xen'drik, and that an upcoming sourcebook will provide some definitive answers to the questions that we debate here. Fortunately or unfortunately, I believe I am safe in suggesting that the publication of Faiths of Eberron will raise more questions than it answers.[2] Further, Hellcow's comments do not address the more fundamental question regarding the timing of the appearance of the Mark of Death, nor the political religious, and economic influence of the House Vol prior to the appearance of the Mark. I continue to assert that the House Phiarlan Dragonshards provide sufficient evidence that House Vol was already "in charge" of the Blood of Vol (the religious and magical tradition) prior to the appearance of the Mark. It is possible that the statement made by the Player's Guide to Eberron refers not to the House taking control of the religion per se—I assert that the House already had control of the religion—but that the appearance of the Mark allowed them to mount an actual challenge to the authority of the Priests of Transition and the Undying Court, i.e. that the "taking over" was more a matter of a radical change in direction and focus than usurpation of some other line's authority over the religion. Consider: until the appearance of the Mark of Death, the Blood of Vol had been not only the minority faith among the Aereni, but generally an unknown, a cipher to the population of Aerenal. The appearance of the Mark of Death, and the attendant increase in power[3] could be construed as attempting to extend power and influence of the religion well beyond the handful of families that were its traditional adherents. This interpretation eases the apparent conflict between the statements of the Player's Guide to Eberron and previously published material, while preserving both the mysteries of the Blood of Vol, and advancing the position of House Vol as a dragonmarked House, for however short a time it was viable. —Siran Dunmorgan [1] With respect to this discussion: the verification that there is an upcoming Faiths of Eberron is a matter of interest in itself. [2] Magic of Eberron, for example, raised the possibility of a connection between the giants of Xen'drik and the ancestors of the Mror dwarves: one of the mightiest empires of the giants was named in that volume the "Cor'dran Empire", and we know that the dwarf-lord who exiled the twelve clans to the surface—an event described in Dwarves of the Mror Holds, Part One—was "Kordran Mror". This is not the first time lingustic similarities between otherwise dramatically different or separate groups has arisen: consider the name of the daelkyr most closely associated with animal or "beast-like" life, the name of the Rajah with the same sort of interest, and the name of the Sovereign with the Animal domain. Now compare their names to the draconic word for "animal", from the word list in Draconomicon. I don't believe that the similarities are a coincidence. Now, it's possible that all of these beings were named by folks conversant with the draconic language, but it's more interesting to postulate that draconic is some kind of root language for everywhere, even Xoriat and deep Khyber. [3] Analysts on the subject tend to focus on the powers of the Mark of Death itself, i.e., speculating on the specific spell-like abilities granted by the Least, Lesser, Greater, and Syberis Marks. But we have been reminded time and again that the power of the Houses does not derive as much from the use of the marks themselves as from the marks being prerequisite to the use of significant wondrous items. The economic power of House Sivis, for example, does not rely on its Marked members' use of sending; it is based far more firmly on the devices—such as speaking stones—that only bearers of certain powers of the proper mark can use. Similarly, House Phiarlan employs devices in its performances that only bearers of the Mark of Shadow can activate to produce lighting, background music, and other effects that would otherwise prove too costly or awkward to use in a performance. We can only speculate concerning the devices for which the Mark of Death was prerequisite. Anything that allowed a bearer of the mark to exceed the normal limits on the number of hit dice of undead that can be handled by a single controller, for example, could represent a singular threat to the established order.
Euangelion 01-30-06, 09:27 AM	As a side note, and make of this what you will, in my personal opinion the strongest path of elven negative necromancy came not from the giants, but from the fallen elven culture of the Qabalrin. This nation is described in the Ring of Storms article in Dungeon #122, and assuming nothing dramatic happens in the next few months, in Secrets of Xen'drik. Qabalrin civilization was destroyed by a natural disaster, but survivors were taken as slaves or joined the elf-giant battle on their own, and other elves have sought to recover Qabalrin knowledge over the millenia. It's entirely possible that the line of Vol actually traces its roots to the Qabalrin, though I don't recall if that's been officially stated anywhere (and by 'anywhere', I'm including completed but as yet unpublished sourcebooks). Anyhow, with Faiths of Eberron on the horizon, within the year you should have a more official answer on the subject. Should I infer that apart from the minor detail of the source of the elven study of necromancy on Xen'drik, that my summary is otherwise accurate in your opinion, Hellcow?
Wraith428 01-30-06, 12:40 PM	If as hypothisised the line of Vol had control over th path of blood religion before they recieved to mark of death... who's so say that the line of Vol really got the mark in the first place. As has been noted elsewhere many of the houses have a number of different family lines. Cannith has Vown and a couple others... after/during the War of the Mark the various marked houses came together to make the bigger houses (some of the bigger house could have come together before the war as well.) Anyways, maybe the mark of death never manifested in a direct decended of the line of Vol until the line of Vol married into the houses that did manifest the first marks. Since they had taken over leadership for the path of blood and essentially negative energy necromancy on Aerenal, perhaps they saw it as their right to take over the mark of death??? Nothing but supposition here, but an idea to think about. Wraith428
Hellcow 01-30-06, 12:56 PM	I continue to assert that the House Phiarlan Dragonshards provide sufficient evidence that House Vol was already "in charge" of the Blood of Vol (the religious and magical tradition) prior to the appearance of the Mark. Obviously, this is my opinion on the matter. Three thousand years isn't that long for the elves, and the necromantic traditions do date back to Xen'drik. Now, key issue: I feel that the term "House Vol" is misleading. "House Vol" was never a house in the same sense as the modern dragonmarked houses. It was the noble house ruling the line of Vol, as described on page 19 of the Player's Guide. So, in my opinion, the line of Vol was involved in negative necromantic research and traditions since the founding of Aerenal. When the Mark of Death manifested, the bearers of the mark came to dominate the LINE, shifting the traditional balance of power (as noble rank normally ISN'T hereditary). So for sake of argument, let's say there were three lines following the negative traditions (remembering that a line is like a city-state, including many families). In my opinion, the line of Vol was always the foremost of the three... most likely being the only one with any sort of direct blood tie back to the Qabalrin. When the Mark of Death appeared within the line of Vol, those who bore it quickly rose to dominate the line... so House Vol already was more or less in control of the religion, but now those who bore the mark "took control" of the line... and the power of the mark solidified their position at the top of the religious heirarchy. Also, the PG entry says the faith "faded away with the passage of time"; I feel this is somewhat misleading, although easily justified as imperfect player knowledge. As stated in the Phiarlan dragonshard, after House Vol and any members of the line believed to carry the potential for the mark were killed, its allies - notably the other lines that had followed the traditions - were given the choice of abandoning the traditions or accepting exile. So the roots of the religion on Khorvaire can be traced to these exiles. Oh, and Siran, you're absolutely right: the focus items are often more important that the abilities of the mark itself! And Erandis may have been creating focus objects over the last two millenia in anticipation of getting her mark back... In any case, I'm supposed to be spending LESS time on the boards, so please, carry on without me. ;)
dang 01-30-06, 10:33 PM	Personally, I welcome the ladies who show up at my front door every Thursday morning, and generally make time to sit and work through their weekly lessons on Scripture with them—I wasn't kidding when I said I enjoy this kind of debate, and the Witnesses can put up a very strong argument. they certainly can... though one sweet old lady tried to grab me with a fake phone survey, and didn't have a response to my criteria that "my ideal leader" have a sense of humor... no biblical evidence for Jesus being a laugh-a-minute. Hellcow does that a lot. ;) and i am always grateful. :D btw, thanks for adding the accent grave to my francais. [1] With respect to this discussion: the verification that there is an upcoming Faiths of Eberron is a matter of interest in itself. i know! i think i'll start a speculative thread... is this the mysterious unnamed sourcebook, i wonder, or is that something even more enigmatic?!? dun-dun-DUN :evillaugh [2] Magic of Eberron, for example, raised the possibility of a connection between the giants of Xen'drik and the ancestors of the Mror dwarves: one of the mightiest empires of the giants was named in that volume the "Cor'dran Empire", and we know that the dwarf-lord who exiled the twelve clans to the surface—an event described in Dwarves of the Mror Holds, Part One—was "Kordran Mror". interesting... but i think maybe a stretch. i think it more likely that various writers experienced a coincidental confluence of nonsense syllables than a giant lord shrank and settled in with some frostfell emigres. We can only speculate concerning the devices for which the Mark of Death was prerequisite. Anything that allowed a bearer of the mark to exceed the normal limits on the number of hit dice of undead that can be handled by a single controller, for example, could represent a singular threat to the established order. i think it ought to be a deathray. ;)
Hellcow 01-30-06, 11:17 PM	i think i'll start a speculative thread... is this the mysterious unnamed sourcebook, i wonder, or is that something even more enigmatic?!? It's not the mysterious unnamed sourcebook. I mentioned it only because it's already listed on Amazon. While only Jennifer Clarke-Wilkes is mentioned on Amazon, there were other people involved - but I wasn't one of the primary designers on the project.